23 replies to this topic

[jdog]

Alright there are a ton of different supplements (I suppose nootropics should be added into this discussion too), and in the past, I've read that some of them should be cycled in order to maintain their efficacy. Unfortunately, I can't recall which.

The supplements I'm most interested in knowing cycling rules for (if there are any) are R-ALA, ALCAR, Piracetam, lecithin/choline, and a multi-vitamin. If someone wants to post a more comprehensive list of substances with their associated cycling methods, I certainly wouldn't be against that either.

Also, are there any criteria one can use to determine whether a supplement should be cycled in the first place? For example, direct neurotransmitter precursors should always be cycled.

[Brainbox]

I'm generally taking supps on a 5 day's on, 2 day's of cycle as a precaution.
After having some issues with carnosine (quite severe histamine reactions that did develop slowly and undetected) I decided to generally cycle all the supps.

Wise to do? I don't know really. Not much information found on this, specifically the fact that people can have very individually determined reactions.

[xanadu]

I'm off all sups now, or at least those that are stimulating. That includes resveratrol which to me is a stimulant. My quality of sleep had deteriorated to a degree that I had to do something. Other than that, it was fine and I liked the effects.

[Shepard]

A good (theoretical) case could probably be made for cycling off everything once in a while.

[Brainbox]

What would be a good general cycle frequency? Order of day's (like I'm doing now) or weeks maybe?
Probably a general applicable frequency does not exist anyway...

[Shepard]

Yeah, it would vary for everything. Assuming diet is in check, I'd say a good 5/2 split wouldn't hurt anyone. Or a weekend every 2 weeks. Something like that. I normally just drop mine whenever I go out of town, which usually ends up being a couple weekends/month.

[Athanasios]

What would be a good general cycle frequency? Order of day's (like I'm doing now) or weeks maybe?
Probably a general applicable frequency does not exist anyway...

If I were to do it, I would base it off the research of the different substances. Some things have good long term evidence, which I would continue taking, others have had only 3 month duration studies and whatnot. I am going to do bloodtests twice a year. One, I will be taking the supplements until the fasting period before the test. The other, I will stop supplement use for a week before the test. That way I can make sure no obvious problems are being masked by the supplements.

[stephen_b]

I'm generally taking supps on a 5 day's on, 2 day's of cycle as a precaution.
After having some issues with carnosine (quite severe histamine reactions that did develop slowly and undetected)

Can you describe your symptoms? I'm wondering if the same isn't happening to me.

Do you still take carnosine?

Stephen

[Brainbox]

I stopped taking it. I developed some skin issues (I believe called hives in English). On my neck and hands. On my both hands I still have some scar like thing that very slowly disappears, fortunately my neck is clear.

It got acute the moment I did start taking Wobenzym again after about a year of not taking. The wobenzym was tolerated without problem before. After stopping the Carnosine also some other minor itchy issues did disappear.

(Sorry for late reaction, forgot about this thread)

[ikaros]

I would see no need for cycling supplements like benfotiamine, fish oil and vitamin C. Anyone disagree?

[kenj]

Brainbox, you know, I got some crazy allergic reactions from carnosine at 1G.
I take a low dose (50mg) twice/day on empty stomach (VRP for example got a 50mg carnosine product), so far with no problems.
Cannot miss out on this one.

[ageless]

I think cycling would be wise just as a precaution, even in the absence of negative effects. Even the most respected and brilliant researcher realizes just how little he/she knows about the complexity of the human body and the pluripotent effects supplements have on the body... Even when you think you know everything there is and seem pretty certain about something, there can be surprises waiting.
Taking substances in amounts greater than diet offers or alongside diet can impact positively, but still the same, it doesn't seem natural or normal for the body to be continually hit with large amounts of certain substances... to look at it more scientifically we know alpha-tocopherol was for a long time considered a great supplement to take even large doses of safely. Given GRAS and recommended by doctors, etc..., but little was talked about the other tocopherols or tocotrienols for many years and now we know too much alpha can impact negatively the ideal ratio of all 8 E isomers.
I think there are many examples of nutrients when taken in larger amounts affecting other nutrients negatively and thus the optimum health of the human body. While I love reading of the benefits of something as wonderful as R-lipoic acid, I also question the logic of taking megadoses of it every single day... it is only found in negligable amounts in food and thus this is more of a drug like effect that while relatively safe and potentially beneficial for various disorders, may be negative to levels of bodily biotin. There are many other examples.
This is just one small example, but I think caution is always warranted and cycling may offer insurance from the unknown.

[PWAIN]

Ok, well last weekend I decieded to cycle off all my supps. I took my usual evening dose on the Friday and didn't take anything else at all until Monday morning.

The result was night and day!!! I had a headache most of the weekend, developed a head cold, felt exhasuted, lethargic, weak and tired, I had a poor mood and basically felt absolutely miserable. By Monday evening (back on supps) I was feeling 100% again.

The first thing I realised from this is just how much the supps help me. The other thing is that I think I will now do this fortnightly.

[ikaros]

I had a headache most of the weekend, developed a head cold, felt exhasuted, lethargic, weak and tired, I had a poor mood and basically felt absolutely miserable. By Monday evening (back on supps) I was feeling 100% again.

The first thing I realised from this is just how much the supps help me.

That sounds rather like physical addiction to supplements.

[Brainbox]

Another thing I noticed after stopping the carnosine is that my medium severity hay fever did not manifest itself this year. I'll keep my fingers crossed, probably thinking about it now will reintroduce it... [lol]
But I'm taking some extra vit. E (all the isomers, euhm vitamer), C, Calcium+Mag+Zinc+silicium and TMG to try to lower histamine. Apparently this works. Ortho, I will try your test as soon as I got my hold on a dose of niacin, thanks.
Anyway, the hay fever symptoms did increase only a little while I was using the high dose carnosine.

Edit: I'm still looking for a European source of beta-alanine to replace the carnosine. I'm a bit hesitant in ordering strange white powders from oversees.

Edited by brainbox, 18 May 2007 - 05:00 PM.

[kenj]

O/T, WIMC, I may be getting the same troublesome symptoms now from carnosine 100mg as I developed last year, when I took 500-1000mg for a few weeks (which ended in my one 2-weekly pneumonia eventually), albeit symptoms very slowly developing: Mildly respiratory/sinus problems, not alleviated by standard anti-histaminic agents (vit C, grape seed, etc.), although I'm not getting skin reactions from this lower dose.

I've stopped carnosine supplementation for now, until I know more what the *'s going on, - with my respiratory airways clearing up subsequently.
A few case reports suggest this is a respiratory allergy, but I'm still puzzled (at 100mg!), - and I do not have hay fever.........

[Brainbox]

Yeah, It seems to creep-up on you very slowly this carnosine allergy. I did not have respiratory/sinus problems apart from the hay fever btw.

[krillin]

vit. E (all the isomers)

[pedant mode]

The tocopherols have different molecular weights (owing to different numbers of methyl groups) so it's more correct to say vitamer than isomer.

[/pedant mode]

[Brainbox]

Thanks for the correction. One moment you think you know something, the other moment.... gone. [lol]

[shifter]

hmmm, should I be worried about taking this 3 times a day then? (serving size is 3 capsules) Click Here

I take it with my r lipioc acid as I heard it has good synergistic effects

[Brainbox]

Carnosine and carnitine are not the same thing.

[PWAIN]

I had a headache most of the weekend, developed a head cold, felt exhasuted, lethargic, weak and tired, I had a poor mood and basically felt absolutely miserable. By Monday evening (back on supps) I was feeling 100% again.

The first thing I realised from this is just how much the supps help me.

That sounds rather like physical addiction to supplements.

Actually before starting on supplements, headaches were quite a regualr thing for me. I just got used to having them. Now I have just got used to not having them. It is rather nice.

[meatwad]

I cycled off for about 8 months straight before even adding fish oil and piracetam/lecithin.

It felt great to not having to take anything.
It is strange when you can feel fish oil 'working' acutely...