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The organic food myth


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#31 mike250

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 09:04 PM

well speaking of apples, I just got my bag of organic apples from the supermarket and I'm going to try one of them. if they are indeed more nutriotious or higher quality than the regular stuff they should taste different.

#32 shadowrun

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 09:09 PM

I'm always surprised that the diets animals are raised on are not subject to more scrutiny. I'd take pesticide-ridden grass-fed beef over organic grain-fed every time.


So your saying its nutritionally healthier to eat non-organic beef?

I always buy organic for the most pesticide rich foods - As for the top 10 most pesiticide containing foods I won't even eat them at a restaurant if they aren't organic.

For the 10 least pesticide rich foods I will buy the non organic varieties.

Most people who have very little info on the organic food debate really just weigh the price of it -
Its hard to make this more understood when you live in a world where you can feed your kid a can of chef boyardee for the price of an organic apple

#33 Shepard

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 10:19 PM

So your saying its nutritionally healthier to eat non-organic beef?


He's saying go for grass-fed first of all, I believe. For all the savages out there, you've gotta go grass-fed regardless of your opinion on the issue. The taste difference is substantial.

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#34 mike250

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 10:42 PM

so if we don't have access to grass fed beef its better not to consume any then.

#35 Live Forever

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 10:48 PM

So your saying its nutritionally healthier to eat non-organic beef?


He's saying go for grass-fed first of all, I believe. For all the savages out there, you've gotta go grass-fed regardless of your opinion on the issue. The taste difference is substantial.

Can't we just skip a step and eat the grass instead?

#36 Shepard

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 11:20 PM

He's saying go for grass-fed first of all, I believe. For all the savages out there, you've gotta go grass-fed regardless of your opinion on the issue. The taste difference is substantial.

Can't we just skip a step and eat the grass instead?


We can skip that one and just lay out in the sun and stuff, too.

#37 Live Forever

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 11:21 PM

He's saying go for grass-fed first of all, I believe. For all the savages out there, you've gotta go grass-fed regardless of your opinion on the issue. The taste difference is substantial.

Can't we just skip a step and eat the grass instead?


We can skip that one and just lay out in the sun and stuff, too.

We could skip that, and just become beams of light ourselves.

Ok, this is getting absurd...

#38 Shepard

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 11:23 PM

We could skip that, and just become beams of light ourselves.


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#39 wayside

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 02:39 AM

We could skip that, and just become beams of light ourselves.


Living on Light

#40 Live Forever

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 02:47 AM

We could skip that, and just become beams of light ourselves.


Living on Light


Oh gosh. Those Breatharians are crazy mofos. I studied a lot about them awhile back.

#41 shadowrun

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 05:56 AM

I figured grass-fed was the way to go -

I admit though...I would much rather become silver surfer

#42 resveratrol

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 03:52 PM

Monsanto...it always makes me laugh to see someone backing Monsanto as a bringer of great bounty and agricultural innovation. Besides their atrocious environmental track record, the shoddy business behaviour and general disrespect for the farming community at large is nothing to be thankful for.


If you'd like to argue with facts instead of broad allegations and hand-waving, please go away and come back when you have some actual facts to bring to the table.

It's just as easy to bash a fanatical hippie as it is to bash someone who doesn't even bother to do a little research on what those "nutty" Whole Foods crowd is talking about...


You disagree with my conclusions, so therefore you immediately conclude that I've done no research whatsoever. Fascinating!

You think organic farming involves no scientific knowledge? You have no idea.


Where on earth did I say any such thing? Organic farming requiring no scientific knowledge? I'm appalled that you'd claim I made any such statement.

Is that how you like to debate -- by putting words in people's mouths and then accusing them of being misinformed?

You clearly have an enormous chip on your shoulder. Frankly, if you're going to use misrepresentation and sweeping allegation rather than facts, and sprinkle your arguments with words like "asshat," then I have neither the time nor the patience to debate you on the subject.

#43 mitkat

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 07:35 PM

I'm tired of such sweeping allegations against those darn nutty whole foods types. Most tiring is having this organic debate every few months, please read some old threads. I no longer have the patience and hate repeating myself. Have yourself a looksie http://www.imminst.o...ST&f=171&t=9078

Read this. You will note arguments and documentation brough up by KevinK that pretty much outlines any facts you might need about the "broad allegations and hand-waving" I laid down...sorry, but I simply can't spoonfeed all the information. Have a look - facts. You obviously have not done your research if you have such praise for Monsanto. I do not bash corporations because it's trendy, it can be deserved.


Please clarify this statement if you think I'm putting words in your mouth:
[quote]
The amount of fear-mongering and scientific ignorance is really astonishing and shameful.
[/quote]

Where is the ignorance located exactly? Are you suggesting organic consumers, or produce buyers in general? How about both parties, generally speaking.


I'll post it here for anyone who does not want to read the discussion - here are very specific allegations against Monsanto.

[quote]
Monsanto Co.'s "seed police" snared soy farmer Homan
McFarling in 1999 and the company is demanding he pay it hundreds of thousands of dollars for alleged technology piracy.

McFarling's sin? He saved seed from one harvest and replanted it the following season, a revered and ancient agricultural practice.
"My daddy saved seed. I saved seed," said McFarling, 62, who still grows soy on the 5,000-acre family farm in Mississippi and is fighting the agribusiness giant in court.

Saving Monsanto's seeds, genetically engineered to kill bugs and resist weed sprays, violates provisions of the company's contracts with farmers.

Since 1997, Monsanto has filed similar lawsuits 90 times in 25 states against 147 farmers and 39 agriculture companies, according to a report by The Center for Food Safety, a biotechnology foe.
[/quote]

[quote]
Multi-Billion $$ Monsanto Sues More Small Family Farmers

Percy Schmeiser is a farmer from Saskatchewan Canada whose Canola fields were contaminated with Monsanto's genetically engineered Round-Up Ready Canola by pollen from a nearby farm. Monsanto says it doesn't matter how the contamination took place, and is therefore demanding Schmeiser pay their Technology Fee (the fee farmers must pay to grow Monsanto's genetically engineered products). According to Schmeiser, "I never had anything to do with Monsanto, outside of buying chemicals. I never signed a contract. If I would go to St. Louis (Monsanto Headquarters) and contaminate their plots--destroy what they have worked on for 40 years--I think I would be put in jail and the key thrown away."

Rodney Nelson's family farm is being forced into a similar lawsuit by Monsanto. Support Schmeiser, Nelson and hundreds of other family farmers who are being forced to pay Monsanto to have their fields contaminated by genetically modifeid organisms. Sign OCA's "Millions Against Monsanto" petition. These petitions will be physically delivered to Monsanto and related court hearings.
[/quote]

[quote]
Monsanto Brings Small Family Dairy to Court

Oakhurst Dairy has been owned and operated by the same Maine family since 1921, and Monsanto recently attempted to put them out of business. Oakhurst, like many other dairy producers in the U.S., has been responding to consumer demand to provide milk free of rBGH, a synthetic hormone banned (for health reasons) in every industrialized country other than the U.S. Monsanto, the number one producer of the rBGH synthetic steroid, sued Oakhurst, claiming they should not have the right to inform their customers that their dairy products do not contain the Monsanto chemical. Given the intense pressure from the transnational corporation, Oakhurst was forced to settle out of court, leaving many other dairies vulnerable to similar attacks from Monsanto.
[/quote]

[quote]
Monsanto Hid PCB Pollution for Decades

ANNISTON, Ala. -- On the west side of Anniston, the poor side of Anniston, the people grew berries in their gardens, raised hogs in their back yards, caught bass in the murky streams where their children swam and played and were baptized. They didn't know their dirt and yards and bass and kids -- along with the acrid air they breathed -- were all contaminated with toxic chemicals. They didn't know they lived in one of the most polluted patches of America.

Now they know. They also know that for nearly 40 years, while producing the now-banned industrial coolants known as PCBs at a local factory, Monsanto Co. routinely discharged toxic waste into a west Anniston creek and dumped millions of pounds of PCBs into oozing open-pit landfills. And thousands of pages of Monsanto documents -- many emblazoned with warnings such as "CONFIDENTIAL: Read and Destroy" -- show that for decades, the corporate-giant concealed what it did and what it knew... (Read more...)
[/quote]


[quote]
Monsanto's Agent Orange

The Corporation Continues to Refuse Compensation to Veterans and Families for Exposure to the Toxic Chemical

The dioxin in Agent Orange has been accepted internationally as one of the most toxic chemicals on the planet, causing everything from severe birth defects, to cancer, to neurological disorders, to death. But Monsanto has successfully blocked any major movement towards compensating veterans and civilians who were exposed to the company's Agent Orange.

Long before Agent Orange was used as a herbicide in the Vietnam war, Monsanto knew of its negative health impacts on humans. Since then, Monsanto has been unsuccessful at covering its tracks and has even been convicted of fabricating false research documentation that claims Agent Orange has no negative health effects, other than a possible skin rash. Thanks to Monsanto's influence, the Center for Disease Control also released a report claiming veterans were never exposed to harmful levels of Agent Orange.

As a note, from 1962 to 1970, the US military sprayed 72 million liters of herbicides, mostly Agent Orange, on over one million Vietnamese civilians and over 100,000 U.S. troops.

Monsanto continues to claim this now banned chemical is not toxic.
[/quote]


[quote]
Taxpayers Forced to Fund Monsanto's Poisoning of Third World

Monsanto has also been implicated in the indiscriminate sale and use of RoundUp Ultra in the anti-drug fumigation efforts of Plan Colombia. Of the some $1.3 billion of taxpayers' money earmarked for Plan Colombia, Monsanto has received upwards of $25 million for poviding RoundUp Ultra.

RoundUp Ultra is a highly concentrated version of Monsanto's glyphosate herbicide, with additional surfactants to increases its lethality. Local communities and human rights organizations charge that Ultra is destroying food crops, water sources and protected areas in the Andes, primarily Colombia.

Paradoxically, the use of RoundUp Ultra has actually increased coca cultivation in the Andes. As local farming communities are increasingly impacted by RoundUp Ultra fumigations, many turn to the drug trade as a means of economic survival. Regional NGOs have estimated that almost 200,000 hectares have been fumigated with Ultra under Plan Colombia.
[/quote]


[quote]
Monsanto's Roundup Pesticide Killing Wheat

Monsanto also produces the most commonly used broadleaf pesticide in the world, glyphosate--or Roundup. In addition to its inherent toxicity as a chemical pesticide, Roundup has now been found to aid the spread of fusarium head blight in wheat. This disease creates a toxin in the infected wheat, making the crop unsuitable for human or animal consumption. Canada's wheat industry is currently being ravaged by this disease. At the same time, the widespread use of Roundup has resulted in the formation of "super weeds" --- unwanted plants that have developed an immunity to these pesticides. Read study linking Monsanto's Roundup to Cancer.
[/quote]


[quote]
Monsanto Takes Ownership of Public Water Resources

Over the past century, global water supplies have been contaminated with the full gamut of Monsanto's chemicals, including PCBs, dioxin and glyophosate (Roundup). So now the company, seeing a profitable market niche, is taking control of the public water resources they polluted, filtering it, and selling it back to the people. In short, Monsanto is making a double profit by polluting the world's scarce freshwater resources, privately taking ownership of that water, filtering it, and selling it back to those who can afford to pay for it.
[/quote]


[quote]
Monsanto's GE Seeds are Pushing US Agriculture into Bankruptcy

Genetically engineered crops are causing an economic disaster for farmers in the U.S. So says a new report released by Britain's Soil Association. The report is a massive compilation of data showing GE crops have cost American taxpayers $12 billion in farm subsidies in the past three years. "Within a few years of the introduction of GM crops, almost the entire $300 million annual US maize exports to the EU had disappeared, and the US share of the soya market had decreased," the report said. In addition, the study says that GE crops have lead to an increased use of pesticides, while resulting in overall lower crop yields.
[/quote]

[quote]
Cotton Farmers Going Bankrupt from Monsanto's GE Cotton

(2002) In India the financial figures for the recent cotton growing season have finally been crunched. Although Monsanto convinced many of India's farmers that buying the more expensive GE cotton seeds would result in higher yields and better cotton, the reverse is actually true. Crop yields for GE cotton were 5 TIMES LESS than traditional Indian cotton and the income from GE cotton was 7 TIMES LESS than conventional cotton, due to Monsanto's cotton having lower quality short fibers. As a result of the insurmountable deluge of debt accrued from paying more for the GE seeds and having a weak crop, more than 100 Indian farmers committed suicide in the last year.
[/quote]

[quote]
Wheat Farmers Say No to Monsanto's GE Wheat

The Washington Post and other major publications have been highlighting a massive new movement of conventional and organic farmers who are working together to pass state legislation that would put a moratorium on Monsanto's new genetically engineered wheat. North Dakota farmers recently met with Monsanto representatives to express their concerns about the new crop. Steven Pollestad, a conventional farmer, said, "The foreign buyers have flat out said they won't buy it. And I believe they won't."

Japan has announced to the US that if GE wheat is approved here, it is likely they will completely discontinue importing wheat from American farmers. This makes up a total of 2.5 million tons of US grown wheat each year---enough to put thousands of family farmers out of business. Similarly, South Korean officials gave the US similar warnings in May 2003. In the meantime, Monsanto continues to test its new GE wheat in fields across the US, despite staunch farmer opposition throughout North America.

Meanwhile, Scientists from the University of Manitoba have released a report indicating, "Under current conditions the release of Roundup Ready wheat in Western Canada would be environmentally unsafe." Despite the landslide of data revealing probable negative impacts on the environment, the economy and human health, the FDA is posed to approve Monsanto's GE wheat. Why?
[/quote]


[quote]
Monsanto's Government Ties
A Monsanto official told the New York Times that the corporation should not have to take responsibility for the safety of its food products. "Monsanto should not have to vouchsafe the safety of biotech food," said Phil Angell, Monsanto's director of corporate communications. "Our interest is in selling as much of it as possible. Assuring its safety is the FDA's job."

It would be nice to think the FDA can be trusted with these matters, but think again. Monsanto has succeeded in insuring that government regulatory agencies let Monsanto do as it wishes. Take a look:

Clarence Thomas was Monsanto's lawyer.

Former U.S. Secretary of Agriculture (Anne Veneman) was on the Board of Directors of Monsanto's Calgene Corporation.

The Secretary of Defense (Donald Rumsfeld) was on the Board of Directors of Monsanto's Searle pharmaceuticals.

The U.S. Secretary of Health, Tommy Thompson, received $50,000 in donations from Monsanto during his winning campaign for Wisconsin's governor.

The two congressmen receiving the most donations from Monsanto during the last election were Larry Combest (Chairman of the House Agricultural Committee) and John Ashcroft (Head of the Department of Homeland Security). (Source: Dairy Education Board)

In order for the FDA to determine if Monsanto's growth hormones were safe or not, Monsanto was required to submit a scientific report on that topic. Margaret Miller, one of Monsanto's researchers put the report together. Shortly before the report submission, Miller left Monsanto and was hired by the FDA. Her first job for the FDA was to determine whether or not to approve the report she wrote for Monsanto. In short, Monsanto approved its own report. Assisting Miller was another former Monsanto researcher, Susan Sechen. Deciding whether or not rBGH-derived milk should be labeled fell under the jurisdiction of another FDA official, Michael Taylor, who previously worked as a lawyer for Monsanto.
[/quote]


Monsanto.

#44 xanadu

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 08:23 PM

Keep up the good work, mitkat! Let those who think monsanto is so good drink a bottle of their product and do us all a favor.

#45 mitkat

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 08:23 PM

I am sorry if it came across that I said you were an asshat specifically, no disrespect. I do have a major chip on my shoulder regarding this subject, as many people have uninformed opinions on the subject. To believe one understands and judges organic farming as a purely financial relationship (calories per $, $ per acre)...that is missing one of the major purposes of organic farming. It is a multifaceted system balancing ecology, nutrition, and economy.

#46 bgwowk

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 09:08 PM

Wasn't the original thread topic whether there are health benefits to "organic" food, and whether the benefits are cost effective? Just as there is no need for a discussion of supplements to digress into the evils of pharmaceutical companies, there should be no need for every thread about organic food to end with rants about Monsanto. It's practically the Godwin's Law of organic food debates. [lol]

Anyone have any health or nutrient studies to cite? Again, I believe this is very much a case-by-case issue. I don't think one can generalize to say organic is always healthier any more than one can generalize to say supps are always better than drugs for any condition.

#47 xanadu

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 09:58 PM

That's like saying discussions about the pope's ban on abortion should not inevitably end up talking about world overpopulation or that discussions about gun control should not talk about nuts who go on shooting rampages. Those other topics are intimately related and trying to ban any talk about them is dishonest. Any discussion about supplements is naturally going to touch on pharm companies. The world is not made up of neat little categories that can be discussed in a vacuum. Nothing exists in a vacuum.

#48 Brainbox

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 10:07 PM

Nothing exists in a vacuum.

I guess a vacuum is an asymptotic feature... :)

#49 bgwowk

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 11:02 PM

Whether a given supplement has efficacy for a particular purpose is a pure science question. Whether growing a certain food in a certain way results in a molecular constitution that is healthier than other methods of growth is a pure science question. Even people who say data are being suppressed by powerful interest groups should still be able to point to the data that's being suppressed, or at least present a mechanistic (not political) argument for their belief.

#50 Brainbox

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 11:09 PM

I think the scope or part of the life-cycle to consider effectiveness of organic agriculture should be enhanced. For products that require longer storage (e.b. beans) as opposed to products that are consumed while still fresh. Long storage enlarges the probability for "natural" contamination like moulds that can be very toxic. In these cases chemical additives can be beneficial. In other cases they are definitely not.

#51 xanadu

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 12:33 AM

People who refuse to consider the big picture end up with a myopic and false view of the world. All things are connected and anything you refuse to look at diminishes the accuracy of your viewpoint. Global warming is part of the equation, just to pick one subject. You can not leave it out without forming a false valuation of the end result.

#52 bgwowk

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 01:19 AM

People who refuse to consider the big picture end up with a myopic and false view of the world. All things are connected and anything you refuse to look at diminishes the accuracy of your viewpoint. Global warming is part of the equation, just to pick one subject. You can not leave it out without forming a false valuation of the end result.

Global Warming?!? You have proved my original point better than I ever could have. The organic food movement isn't primarily about health. For those that most enthusiastically advocate it, it's part of a belief system and way of life. People drive their Prius to the organic food market not primarily because of health, but because of the way they believe the world should be. Disagree?

#53 Shepard

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 03:45 PM

People drive their Prius to the organic food market not primarily because of health, but because of the way they believe the world should be.  Disagree?


Or because "going green" has become the latest fad for certain age groups.

#54 xanadu

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 06:30 PM

To some people, going green is a fad. To the world as a whole, it's a matter of survival. Not survival so much for those who try to reduce emissions, reuse, recycle and so on. It's survival for a lot of other people living on the edge. It's also a quality of life issue.

Organic food is about health but I was trying to point out that there are always other factors. A given chemical may not produce classic signs of toxicity when given a standardized test and yet it may have other harmful effects that the test is not designed to discover. MSG and aspartame are examples of harmful chemicals that standardized tests gave a clean bill of health to and yet cause many problems. Those who are unable or unwilling to look at the big picture are more likely to accept toxins in their food which pass some narrow definition of toxicity.

#55 mitkat

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 07:16 PM

Wasn't the original thread topic whether there are health benefits to "organic" food, and whether the benefits are cost effective?  Just as there is no need for a discussion of supplements to digress into the evils of pharmaceutical companies, there should be no need for every thread about organic food to end with rants about Monsanto.  It's practically the Godwin's Law of organic food debates.  [lol]


Monsanto would not of been mentioned by me, I'm so tired of beating that dead horse. However, I would hardly classify that as a rant, Brian - just what the poster asked for, some clear facts that show they aren't the good-natured darling some might think they are. It is also a predictable outcome because someone brings up GMOs.

I really don't think anyone can simply put a cost analysis to organic food and expect a well-rounded result. Everyone here knows that it's going to be more expensive. Your point on how the plant uptakes the actual nutrients is of course valid, and a synthetic fertilizer gives the same nutrition as a natural fertilizer. But that's really not the point of organic farming, or of purchasing organic goods at all. I have to agree with Xanadu that one can't just extract that one facet of nutrition per $$ out of the debate and use it as a red herring.

Global Warming?!? You have proved my original point better than I ever could have. The organic food movement isn't primarily about health. For those that most enthusiastically advocate it, it's part of a belief system and way of life. People drive their Prius to the organic food market not primarily because of health, but because of the way they believe the world should be. Disagree?


Awww crap... [lol] global warming?! Dammit Xanadu, that should not be even brought up in this conversation... [tung] This is why I am so dismissive of hippie culture being the poster person for organic culture and am generally welcoming of the so-called 'Whole Foods' crowd. Hippies = unfocused, ridiculous. We all know science holds it down. I would also agree the organic food movement isn't primarily about human health, for sure. People who peddle organic produce and often speak of grandoise claims of boosting anti-oxidant activity, etc should be questioned, they are depreciate their so-called "organic" culture and make it an easy straw man for others by either looking fanatical, or simply dubious. It's ecological health that the movement is primarily about, imo.

Did I ever mention how ambiguous and what a generally poor marketing term I think "organic" is?

#56 Athanasios

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 07:28 PM

Did I ever mention how ambiguous and what a generally poor marketing term I think "organic" is?


That is exactly why it is a good marketing term...for those trying to get more $$$ for the same product.

#57 mitkat

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 07:29 PM

LOL, that's why I'd suck in marketing...I'm an honest mofo

#58 xanadu

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 08:08 PM

mitkat, I'm disappointed in you. Global warming has a lot to do with it whether you or bg know it or not. Using chemical ferts costs a lot of energy which translates into more carbon in the atmosphere and higher world temps. All things are connected and you may call that "unfocused" but that's the way the world works. The world does not divide itself into neat little compartments that can be considered in a vacuum. No matter how much you wish it was that way, it's not that way and it's not going to become that way. I would say that people with that mindset live in a fantasy world. Come into the real world and join us.

In the fantasy world, what one person does or one nation does has no effect on the rest of the world. No one has any obligation to anyone else and if bg wants you to eat pesticides then you better eat them. You probably think the government is always right or is right 99% of the time and the other 1% you will go along with it anyway. All of that is thinking that has brought us into the mess we are in right now. New diseases are popping up at an alarming rate and old ones are going on a rampage. It couldn't have anything to do with the toxins you eat, now could it? It might be time to rethink that paradigm.

#59 luv2increase

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 04:05 AM

Ever heard of the butterfly effect?


Also, organic all the way if you can afford it. I believe it is more important to eat organic meats rather than organic produce. This also sucks since eating organic produce and non-organic meat is less expensive than eating organic meats and conventional produce. I've tried eating all organic for awhile but couldn't afford it.

#60 mike250

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 05:50 AM

yeah the organic meat is very expensive here. costs fortune and I really think its overpriced.




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