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Christianity vs Atheism Debate


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#121 basho

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 04:12 AM

Abiogenesis deals with the origin of life. Something that only had to happen once. Its like a lottery. Statistically you are extremely unlikely to win, but still someone usually wins simply because of the large numbers of people who play.

So are you saying that the development of life was likely just a chance event, and that these very simple organic materials developed in complexity of their own volition?

Once again, you are confusing two totally separate things, which people have been trying to explain to you in this thread. Let me try again:

(1) Abiogenesis or some other theory about the origin of life
(2) Evolution

Can you at least accept that? Yes or no?

Regarding volition, none is required in either case. Does the Earth circle the Sun because "it wants to"? No.

Now, to preempt your coming objection to the statistical unlikelihood of the building blocks of life appearing by chance, please read this article: Lies, Damned Lies, Statistics, and Probability of Abiogenesis Calculations

I am assuming you want to engage in sensible debate, so please try to understand the distinction in concepts we are talking about, and certainly read that link I just posted. In particular:

Problems with "it's so improbable" calculations

1) They calculate the probability of the formation of a "modern" protein, or even a complete bacterium with all "modern" proteins, by random events. This is not the abiogenesis theory at all.

2) They assume that there is a fixed number of proteins, with fixed sequences for each protein, that are required for life.

3) They calculate the probability of sequential trials, rather than simultaneous trials.

4) They misunderstand what is meant by a probability calculation.

5) They seriously underestimate the number of functional enzymes/ribozymes present in a group of random sequences.



#122 william7

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 10:03 AM

This is like saying all matter in its original state is alive and intelligent. Subatomic matter is intelligent. This isn't so.

I'm not sure I follow you here. Do you believe subatomic inorganic matter is intelligent enough to change into organic matter unaided by an outside creative force of highly sophisticated intelligence with a specific plan in mind? I realize some will probably say that the outside forces were natural ones such as heat, radiation, intense presures, etc., and that they existed in just the right combination to do the job. I just can't buy this. Because I've read and believe the Scriptures, I know God was the creator behind the process.

#123 william7

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 10:46 AM

Once again, you are confusing two totally separate things, which people have been trying to explain to you in this thread. Let me try again:

(1) Abiogenesis or some other theory about the origin of life
(2) Evolution

Can you at least accept that? Yes or no?

Regarding volition, none is required in either case. Does the Earth circle the Sun because "it wants to"? No.

Now, to preempt your coming objection to the statistical unlikelihood of the building blocks of life appearing by chance, please read this article: Lies, Damned Lies, Statistics, and Probability of Abiogenesis Calculations

I am assuming you want to engage in sensible debate, so please try to understand the distinction in concepts we are talking about, and certainly read that link I just posted. In particular:

Thanks for posting the link. I've read some of this primordial soup stuff in biology textbooks, etc., sometime ago. Physics, biochemistry, and statistical mathematics are not my forte at all I admit. I'll read some of this stuff and get back with you. In the meantime, you should read my post to luv2increase above.

#124 Lazarus Long

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 12:46 PM

The primordial soup theory is somewhat outdated, we now perceive an incubator/pressure cooker model as having more viability and we have a lot more evidence to suggest this may not only be the case on Earth but on any world that shares certain tectonic and chemical combinations.

Life didn't begin in some primordial cesspool, it probably began at the gates of the underworld in a cauldron of fire, sulfur, amines, hydrocarbon, enormous pressure and ice.

#125 Aegist

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 12:49 PM

Because I've read and believe the Scriptures, I know God was the creator behind the process.

Because I read the Da Vinci code, I know that Jesus had children and it is the best kept secret in all human history.

#126 basho

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 01:13 PM

Because I've read and believe the Scriptures, I know God was the creator behind the process.

Because I read the Da Vinci code, I know that Jesus had children and it is the best kept secret in all human history.

It is with trepidation and much risk that I reveal that Jesus fled to Japan where he fathered three daughters to his Japanese wife and lived to the age of 106.

Christ first came to Japan, aged 21, during the reign of the 11th emperor, Suinin, and landed at the port of Hashidate on the Japan Sea coast. Apparently, he settled in Etchu province where, under the tutelage of a great master, he studied Japanese language, literature and various other subjects. The Legend of Daitenku Taro Jurai (Daitenku Taro Jurai was the name Christ is said to have later taken) claims that at the end of his 11-year stay, Christ returned to Judea, aged 33, where he taught about the "sacred land" of Japan. But, unfortunately, "Christ's teachings about Japan were considered too radical," and he was condemned to death.

The New Testament teaches Jesus was crucified at Golgotha, rose from the dead after three days and later ascended into Heaven. However, according to the legend of Herai, Jesus escaped this fate, and instead his brother Isukiri was nailed to the cross and died. Christ, meanwhile, fled with his disciples and went into hiding, carrying locks of the Virgin Mary's hair and his brother's ear. After an arduous journey across Siberia, Christ finally returned to Japan and settled in Herai where he changed his name, married a Japanese woman called Miyuko, fathered three daughters and lived to the age of 106.

Devout Christians may insist that the Garden Tomb, which lies not far from Damascus Gate outside the Old City of Jerusalem, is Jesus' true burial site, but the people of Herai have another story to tell-marked by a large wooden cross, Jesus' tomb (Juraizuka) sits alongside his brother's (Judaibo) in Herai. Isukiri's tomb holds his ear and locks of the Virgin Mary's hair.

Now you know the truth. I have borne this secret for too long, and now must pass the torch of truth onto a new generation. Good luck to you good sir.

#127 basho

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 01:49 PM

I'll see God as the initiator of the process

Who initiated God?

#128 william7

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 01:52 PM

The primordial soup theory is somewhat outdated, we now perceive an incubator/pressure cooker model as having more viability and we have a lot more evidence to suggest this may not only be the case on Earth but on any world that shares certain tectonic and chemical combinations.

Life didn't begin in some primordial cesspool, it probably began at the gates of the underworld in a cauldron of fire, sulfur, amines, hydrocarbon, enormous pressure and ice.


Thanks for this info! The stuff I read was from textbooks and science mags back in the 1970s. Still, the Truth of the Scriptures and the promises made in them are too good to resist. I'll always see God as the initiator and engineer of the process.

#129 william7

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 02:04 PM

Who initiated God?

To the best of my understanding, He lives outside of the ordinary laws of physics so this matter is indeterminable by humans with inadequate knowledge and position in the scheme of things. We'll just have to wait for some new and future revelation on the matter. Maybe if you and Aegist would pray on it, you might get an answer. What do you say?

#130 DJS

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 07:21 AM

I agree with you Elijah. God is a metaphysical postulate that is essentially unprovable.

Since there is no evidence, and actually evidence to the contrary, for a loving caring God, the only possibility that we are left with -- an abstract deistic God entity -- loses much of its significance.

It really is quite silly to question the scientific method and the theories it produces.

During world war II there were theories in physics which indicated that large amounts of energy could be produced with the splitting of the atom. These "theories" were taken seriously and used to produced devastating weapons of mass destruction.

Even among those who are less than rational, there is no debating that these theories are TRUE and had/have VERY REAL effects on our world.

The theories on biological evolution have been arrived at using the same scientific method which was used to produce the atomic bomb.

Thus, doubting the reliability of the scientific method and the theories it produces are clearly indicative of an irrational mind set that possesses a level of cognitive bias so great that it is prevented from perceived the world as it really is (ie, a state of delusion).

Game, set, match.

Now go talk to yourself pray some more. [tung]

#131 DJS

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 08:03 AM

Wiki - Theistic Evolution

Theistic evolution, less commonly known as evolutionary creationism, is the general opinion that some or all classical religious teachings about God and creation are compatible with some or all of the modern scientific understanding about biological evolution. Theistic evolution is not a theory in the scientific sense, but a particular view about how the science of evolution relates to some religious interpretations. In this way, theistic evolution supporters can be seen as one of the groups who deny the conflict thesis regarding the relationship between religion and science; that is, they hold that religious teachings about creation and scientific theories of evolution need not be contradictory.

With this approach toward evolution, scriptural creation stories are typically interpreted as being allegorical in nature.


Deism

Deism is belief in a God or first cause based on reason, rather than on faith or revelation. Most deists believe that God does not interfere with the world or create miracles.



#132 DJS

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 10:27 AM

WHY THE GODS ARE NOT WINNING, By Greg Paul and Phil Zuckerman

Gregory Paul is an independent researcher on subjects dealing with paleontology, evolution, religion and society. Books include Predatory Dinosaurs of the World and Dinosaurs of the Air, the latter is the subject of a PBS NOVA episode in production. His analysis showing the societal decline and inferiority of 1st world religion in the Journal of Religion and Society (moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html, the journal refuses to publish further papers on the subject) got Paul labeled the churches public enemy #1 by MSNBC, and denounced as un-American in the Wall Street Journal.


A sociologist at Pitzer, Phil Zuckerman is the author of Invitation to the Sociology of Religion, Du Bois on Religion, and Sex and Religion, and is working on a book that covers his ground breaking study of how Scandinavians are dealing with their secular societies. His Atheism: Contemporary Rates and Patterns in The Cambridge Companion to Atheism (Cambridge, Cambridge University Press, 2006) verifies the inability of popular religiosity to thrive in modern, egalitarian democracies.


WHY THE GODS ARE NOT WINNING

A myth is gaining ground. The myth seems plausible enough. The proposition is that after God died in the secular 20th century, He is back in a big way as people around the world again find faith. In 2006 Foreign Policy ran two articles that made similar, yet distinctive claims. In the spring Phillip Longman's "The Return of the Patriarchy" contended that secular folk are reproducing themselves, or failing to reproduce themselves, out of existence as the believers swiftly reproduce via a "process similar to survival of the fittest." In the summer FP followed up with "Why God is Winning" by Samuel Shah and Monica Duffy Toft, who pronounced that the Big Three— Christianity, Islam and Hinduism—are back on the global march as secularism fades into irrelevance. In the fall Foreign Affairs joined the chorus when Walter Russell Mead's God's Country? gave the impression that conservative theism continues to rise in a United States jolted back to the spiritual by 9/11. In American Fascists Chris Hedges warns that hard-core Dominionists are accumulating the power to convert the nation into a fundamentalist theocracy.

The actual situation, as is usual in human affairs, much more complex and nuanced, and therefore much more fascinating. Let's start by considering the analytical superficiality that mars the twin articles in Foreign Policy. While Longman proposes that rapid reproduction is the primary agent behind the resurgence of patriarchal faith, Shah and Toft think it is mainly a matter democratic choice in which younger generations reject their parent's secularism. In reality all these claims are well off base. Religion is in serious trouble. The status of faith is especially dire in the west, where the churches face an unprecedented crisis that threatens the existence of organized faith as a viable entity, and there is surprisingly little that can be done to change the circumstances.

Shah and Toft cite the World Christian Encyclopedia as supporting a planetary revival because its shows that "at the beginning of the 21st century, a greater portion of the world's population adhered to [Christianity, Islam and Hinduism] in 2000 than a century earlier." They point to a table in the WCE that shows that the largest Christian and largest nonChristian faiths, Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam and Hinduism, rose from half to nearly two thirds of the world in the 1900s. But that it is a peculiar choice of sects. If every Mohammedan and Hindu sect large and small is tallied, shouldn't every Orthodox, Coptic and so on be too? Another look at the WCE table shows that all Christians, Muslims and Hindus combined edging up a much more modest 60 to 66% (but see below correction) since the reign of Queen Victoria.

What scheme of thought did soar in the 20th century? Although Shah and Toft cite the WCE when it appears to aid their thesis, they seem to have missed key passages near the beginning of the work. The evangelical authors of the WCE lament that no Christian "in 1900 expected the massive defections from Christianity that subsequently took place in Western Europe due to secularism…. and in the Americas due to materialism…. The number of nonreligionists…. throughout the 20th century has skyrocketed from 3.2 million in 1900, to 697 million in 1970, and on to 918 million in AD 2000…. Equally startling has been the meteoritic growth of secularism…. Two immense quasi-religious systems have emerged at the expense of the world's religions: agnosticism…. and atheism…. From a miniscule presence in 1900, a mere 0.2% of the globe, these systems…. are today expanding at the extraordinary rate of 8.5 million new converts each year, and are likely to reach one billion adherents soon. A large percentage of their members are the children, grandchildren or the great-great-grandchildren of persons who in their lifetimes were practicing Christians" (italics added). (The WCE probably understates today's nonreligious. They have Christians constituting 68-94% of nations where surveys indicate that a quarter to half or more are not religious, and they may overestimate Chinese Christians by a factor of two. In that case the nonreligious probably soared past the billion mark already, and the three great faiths total 64% at most.)

Far from providing unambiguous evidence of the rise of faith, the devout compliers of the WCE document what they characterize as the spectacular ballooning of secularism by a few hundred-fold! It has no historical match. It dwarfs the widely heralded Mormon climb to 12 million during the same time, even the growth within Protestantism of Pentecostals from nearly nothing to half a billion does not equal it.

Yet Longman, and especially Shah and Toft, left readers with the impression that Christianity, Islam and Hinduism are each regaining the international initiative against secularism. Again we can turn to the WCE, whose results are presented in the pie charts (with the above adjustment, and with the proviso that the stats are inevitably approximations).

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Since 1900 Christians have made up about a third of the global population, and are edging downwards. No growth there. Hindus are coasting at a seventh the total, no significant increase there either even though India adds more people each year than any other nation. The WCE predicts no proportional increase for these faiths by 2050. The flourishing revival of two megareligions whether by democracy, edification, or fecundity is therefore a mirage. Having shrunk by a quarter in the 20th century, Buddhism is predicted to shrink almost as much over the next half century. Once rivaling Christianity, paganism – whether it be ancient or modern as per New Ageism and Scientology — has over all contracted by well over half and is expected to continue to dwindle.

One Great Faith has risen from one eighth to one fifth of the globe in a hundred years, and is projected to rise to one quarter by 2050. Islam. But education and the vote have little to do with it. Generally impoverished and poorly educated, most Muslims live in nations where democracy is minimalist or absent. Nor are many infidels converting to Allah. Longman was correct on one point; Islam is growing because Muslims are literally having lots of unprotected sex. The absence of a grand revival of Christ, Allah and Vishnu worship via democratic free choice brings us to a point, as important as it is little appreciated — the chronic inability of religion to recruit new adherents on a consistent, global basis.

It is well documented that Christianity has withered dramatically in Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Japan. The failure of the faith in the west is regularly denounced by Popes and Protestant leaders. Churches are being converted into libraries, laundromats and pubs. Those who disbelieve in deities typically make up large portions of the population, according to some surveys they make up the majority of citizens in Scandinavia, France and Japan. Evolution is accepted by the majority in all secular nations, up to four in five in some.

In his paper "Christianity in Britain, R. I. P." Steve Bruce explains that the recent rise of pagans is not nearly sufficiently to make up for the implosion of the churches, which are in danger of dwindling past the demographic and organizational point of no return. A commission of the Church of England agreed, proposing that little attended Sabbath services be dropped, and concluding that the advent of modern lifestyles "coincides with the demise of Christendom." The church commissioned Making Sense of Generation Y study advised the clergy to "avoid panic." Perhaps that response would be appropriate considering the absence of quantitative evidence of a significant Christian revival in any secularized democracy. God belief is not dead in these nonreligious democracies, but it is on life support. The ardent hopes of C. S. Lewis and John Paul II to reChristianize Europe have abjectly failed.

EuroMuslims may become a theological plurality by outnumbering active Christians in a few decades, but that does not mean much in the context of a shrinking Christian minority. In most western nations Muslims are less than one percent to under three. The only exceptions are the Netherlands at five percent, and France at ten, and the native French have the highest birth rate in western Europe.

The mass loss of popular faith in the Eurocultures is often waved away as an isolated aberration in a world still infatuated with the gods. After all, who cares what the "old Europe" of France and Sweden is up to? This is a big mistake. Such a thing has never been seen before in history. And where it has happened is critical to the future of faith. Aside from constituting proof of principle that religion is dangerously vulnerable to modernity, that secularism and disbelief do best in nations that are the most democratic, educated and prosperous directly falsifies the Shah and Toft thesis that these factors are the allies of religiosity.

But hasn't the loss of faith in old Europe been matched by a great revival in new Europe? In his account of his voyage along the Siberian Lena River, Jeffrey Taylor in River of No Reprieve observed that the locals remain atheistic, and the religious minority seems more nationalistic than devout. This premise is applicable to former KGV officer Putin's embrace of the Russian Orthodox church, which had tight connections with the Czarist secret police. Just a quarter of Russians absolutely believe in God, the portion who say that religion is important in their lives are down in the teens, and irreligion may be continuing to rise in very atheistic eastern Germany and the Czech Republic. Even in Poland, the one eastern bloc nation in which religion played an important role in overturning atheistic communism, just one third consider religion to be very important in their lives, and faith is declining towards the old European norm. It turns out that the "new" Europe is not turning out particularly godly.

The Central Kingdom has never been especially religious, became atheistic under communism, and is striving for world dominance via materialistic consumerism. The finding by the Shanghai university poll that religious Chinese lifted from 100 million in the 1960s to 300 million resulted in headlines along the lines of "Poll Finds Surge of Religion Among Chinese." But the 300 million figure is far below the 600 million religious estimated by the World Christian Encyclopedia, and is less than a third of the adult population. Nor should monotheists be particularly comforted. The survey uncovered 40 million Christians, about half the inflated estimate in the WCE, and just 4% of the adult population. Most religious Chinese are Buddhists and Taoists, or worship the likes of the God of Fortune, the Black Dragon and the Dragon King. By the way, The Economist says women are using religion as a way to battle traditional Chinese patriarchy. If the survey is correct that over two thirds of Chinese are not religious then they may approach a billion in China alone, expanding the global total even further.

Mass devotion remains strong in most of the 2nd and 3rd world, but even there there is theistic concern. South of our border a quarter to over half the population describe religion as only somewhat important in their lives. Rather than becoming more patriarchal as democracy and education expand, Mexico is liberalizing as progressive forces successfully push laws favoring abortion and gay rights to the vexation of the Roman and evangelical churches. There is even trouble for Islam in its own realm. A third of Turks think religion is not highly important in their lives, and Iranian urban youth have been highly secularized in reaction to the inept corruption of the Mullahs. In Asia 40% of the citizens of booming South Korea don't believe in God, and only a quarter (most evangelical Christians) identify themselves as strongly religious.

Doesn't America, the one western nation where two thirds absolutely believe in God, and nine in ten think there is some form of higher power, show that religion can thrive in an advanced democracy? Not necessarily.

A decade and a half of sampling finds conservative (thought to be about two thirds to four fifths of the total of) evangelicals and born-agains consistently stuck between a quarter and a third of the population. The majority that considers religion very important in their lives dropped from over two thirds in the 1960s to a bare majority in 1970s and 1980s, and appeared to edge up in the Clinton era. But instead of rising post 9/11 as many predicted, it is slipping again.

Those who feel the opposite about religion doubled between the 1960s and 1970s, have been fairly stable since then, but have been edging up in recent years. American opinion on the issue of human evolution from animals has been rock steady, about half agreeing, about half disagreeing, for a quarter century. What has changed is how people view the Bible. In the 1970s nearly four in ten took the testaments literally, just a little over one in ten thought it was a mixture of history, fables, and legends, a three to one ratio in favor of the Biblical view. Since then a persistent trend has seen literalism decline to between a quarter and a third of the population, and skeptics have doubled to nearly one in five. If the trend continues the fableists will equal and then surpass the literalists in a couple of decades.

Posted Image

Even the megachurch phenomenon is illusory. A spiritual cross of sports stadiums with theme parks, hi-tech churches are a desperate effort to pull in and satisfy a mass-media jaded audience for whom the old sit in the pews and listen to the standard sermon and sing some old time hymns does not cut it anymore. Rather than boosting church membership, megachurches are merely consolidating it.

From a high of three quarters of the population in the 1930s to 1960s, a gradual, persistent decline has set in, leaving some clerics distressed at the growing abandonment of small churches as the big ones gobble up what is left of the rest. Weekly religious service attendance rose only briefly in the months after 9/11—evidence that the event failed to stem national secularization – and then lost ground as the Catholic sex scandal damaged church credibility. As few as one in four or five Americans are actually in church on a typical Sunday, only a few percent of them in megachurches.

In his Foreign Affairs article Mead noted that conservative Southern Baptists constitute the largest church in the states, and they are among the most evangelical. Mead did not note that a Southern Baptist church release laments that "evangelistically, the denomination is on a path of slow but discernable deterioration." The greatest born again sect is baptizing members at the same absolute yearly rate as they did half a century ago, when the population was half as large, and in the last few years the overall trend has been downwards.

Rather than Amerofaith becoming deeply patriarchal as Longman thinks, it is increasingly feminine. Women church goers greatly outnumber men, who find church too dull. Here's the kicker. Children tend to pick up their beliefs from their fathers. So, despite a vibrant evangelical youth cohort, young Americans taken as a whole are the least religious and most culturally tolerant age group in the nation.

One group has experienced rapid growth. In the 1940s and 50s 1-2% usually responded no asked if they believe in God, up to 98% said yes. A Harris study specifically designed to arrive at the best current figure found that 9% do not believe in a creator, and 12% are not sure. The over tenfold expansion of Amerorationalism easily outpaces the Mormon and Pentecostal growth rates over the same half century.

America's disbelievers atheists now number 30 million, most well educated and higher income, and they far outnumber American Jews, Muslims and Mormons combined. There are many more disbelievers than Southern Baptists, and the god skeptics are getting more recruits than the evangelicals.

The rise of American rationalism is based on adult choice—secularists certainly not growing via rapid reproduction. The results can be seen on the bookshelves, as aggressively atheistic books such as Sam Harris' The End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation, Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion, and Daniel C. Dennett's Breaking the Spell, break the mainstream publishing barrier onto the best-sellers lists. Long disparaged as neither moral or American, the growing community is beginning to assert itself as a socio-political force.

What is actually happening here and abroad is a great polarization as increasingly anxious and often desperate hard-core believers mount a vigorous counterrevolution via extreme levels of activism to the first emergence of mass apostasy in history. No major religion is expanding its share of the global population by conversion in any circumstances, much less educated democracy. Disbelief in the supernatural alone is able to achieve extraordinary rates of growth by voluntary conversion. Why?

It is to be expected that in 2nd and 3rd world nations where wealth is concentrated among an elite few and the masses are impoverished that the great majority cling to the reassurance of faith.

Nor is it all that surprising that faith has imploded in most of the west. Every single 1st world nation that is irreligious shares a set of distinctive attributes. These include handgun control, anti-corporal punishment and anti-bullying policies, rehabilitative rather than punitive incarceration, intensive sex education that emphasizes condom use, reduced socio-economic disparity via tax and welfare systems combined with comprehensive health care, increased leisure time that can be dedicated to family needs and stress reduction, and so forth.

As a result the great majority enjoy long, safe, comfortable, middle class lives that they can be confident will not be lost due to factors beyond their control. It is hard to lose one's middle class status in Europe, Canada and so forth, and modern medicine is always accessible regardless of income. Nor do these egalitarians culture emphasize the attainment of immense wealth and luxury, so most folks are reasonably satisfied with what they have got. Such circumstances dramatically reduces peoples' need to believe in supernatural forces that protect them from life's calamities, help them get what they don't have, or at least make up for them with the ultimate Club Med of heaven. One of us (Zuckerman) interviewed secular Europeans and verified that the process of secularization is casual; most hardly think about the issue of God, not finding the concept relevant to their contented lives.

The result is plain to see. Not a single advanced democracy that enjoys benign, progressive socio-economic conditions retains a high level of popular religiosity. They all go material.

It is the great anomaly, the United States, that has long perplexed sociologists. America has a large, well educated middle class that lives in comfort—so why do they still believe in a supernatural creator? Because they are afraid and insecure. Arbitrary dismissal from a long held job, loss of health insurance followed by an extended illness, excessive debt due to the struggle to live like the wealthy; before you know it a typical American family can find itself financially ruined. Overwhelming medical bills are a leading cause of bankruptcy.

In part to try to accumulate the wealth needed to try to prevent financial catastrophe, in part to compete in a culture of growing economic disparity with the super rich, the typical American is engaged in a Darwinian, keeping up with the Jones competition in which failure to perform to expectations further raises levels of psychological stress. It is not, therefore, surprising that most look to friendly forces from the beyond to protect them from the pitfalls of a risky American life, and if that fails compensate with a blissful eternal existence.

The effect can be more direct. For instance, the absence of universal health care encourages the utilization of faith-based medical charities. The latter, as well intentioned as they are, cannot provide the comprehensive health services that best suppress mortality at all ages. But charities extend the reach of the churches into the secular community, enhancing their ability to influence society and politics, and retain and recruit members.

Rather than religion being an integral part of the American character, the main reason the United States is the only prosperous democracy that retains a high level of religious belief and activity is because we have substandard socio-economic conditions and the highest level of disparity. The other factors widely thought to be driving forces behind mass faith—desire for the social links provided by churches, fear of societal amorality, fear of death, genetic predisposition towards religiosity, etc—are not critical simply because hundreds of millions have freely accepted being nonreligious mortals in a dozen and a half democracies. Such motives and factors can be operative only if socio-economic circumstances are sufficiently poor to sustain mass creationism and religion.

So much for the common belief that supernatural-based religiosity is the default mode inherent to the human condition. What about the hypothesis that has gained wide currency, that competition between the plethora of churches spawned by the separation of church and state is responsible for America's highly religious population? Australia and New Zealand copied the American separation between church and state in their constitutions, yet they are much more irreligious. Meanwhile the most religious advanced democracies in Europe are those where the Catholic church is, or was, dominant.

To put it starkly, the level of popular religion is not a spiritual matter, it is actually the result of social, political and especially economic conditions (please note we are discussing large scale, long term population trends, not individual cases). Mass rejection of the gods invariably blossoms in the context of the equally distributed prosperity and education found in almost all 1st world democracies. There are no exceptions on a national basis. That is why only disbelief has proven able to grow via democratic conversion in the benign environment of education and egalitarian prosperity. Mass faith prospers solely in the context of the comparatively primitive social, economic and educational disparities and poverty still characteristic of the 2nd and 3rd worlds and the US.

We can also explain why America is has become increasingly at odds with itself. On one hand the growing level of socio-economic disparity that is leaving an increasing portion of the population behind in the socially Darwinian rat-race is boosting levels of hard-line religiosity in the lower classes. On the other hand freedom from belief in the supernatural is rising among the growing segment that enjoys higher incomes and sophisticated education. Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Ted Turner, Richard Branson and Rupert Murdoch are typical upper crust disbelievers.

The practical implications are equally breath taking. Every time a nation becomes truly advanced in terms of democratic, egalitarian education and prosperity it loses the faith. It's guaranteed. That is why perceptive theists are justifiably scared. In practical terms their only practical hope is for nations to continue to suffer from socio-economic disparity, poverty and maleducation. That strategy is, of course, neither credible nor desirable. And that is why the secular community should be more encouraged.

Skepticism of the transcendent has not swept the planet with the completeness expected by some in the 20th century. Doing so would have required the conversion to atheism of an unattainable 50 million people a year in a world where the great majority chronically lack the high level of science-oriented education, secure prosperity, and democracy that spontaneous disbelief depends upon. The expectation of global atheism was correspondingly naïve, and will remain so as billions live in, or fear living in, substandard conditions. Which should not comfort theists. Even so, theists are equally naïve when they dream that faith can retake the entire world.

Disbelief now rivals the great faiths in numbers and influence. Never before has religion faced such enormous levels of disbelief, or faced a hazard as powerful as that posed by modernity. How is organized religion going to regain the true, choice-based initiative when only one of them is growing, and it is doing so with reproductive activity rather than by convincing the masses to join in, when no major faith is proving able to grow as they break out of their ancestral lands via mass conversion, and when securely prosperous democracies appear immune to mass devotion? The religious industry simply lacks a reliable stratagem for defeating disbelief in the 21st century.

Even though liberal, pro-evolution religions are not at fault for unacceptable social policies, organized faith cannot reform itself by supporting successful secular social arrangements because these actions inadvertently suppress popular religiosity. They are caught in a classic Catch-22. And liberal churches are even less able to thrive in advanced democracies than are their more conservative counterparts, so if churches, temples and mosques become matriarchal by socio-politically liberalizing they risk secularizing themselves into further insignificance.

In Commonweal Peter Quinn contends that Stephen Gould, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett and Sam Harris have sanitized the social philosophy of Charles Darwin, which was not sufficiently kindly and tolerant to produce "the sole and true foundation for a humanistic society, free of the primitive and dangerous irrationality of religious belief."

Aside from the above nontheists never having promoted Darwin's personal world-view as the sole fountain of societal goodness, Quinn is making the even bigger mistake—the same mistake nearly everyone is making—of believing that the contest between popular faith and secularism is an epic struggle of ideas that then determines the quality of societies. But the level and nature of popular faith is really set by economic conditions, and only secular egalitarian prosperous democracies that reject extreme social Darwinism can produce the best practical conditions.

Assuming America continues to secularize towards the 1st world norm then what can we expect? The decline in faith-based conservative ideology is predicted to allow the country to adopt the progressive policies that have been proven to work in the rest of the west, and vice-versa. Even Wal-Mart has come out in favor of universal medical coverage as bottom-line busting health care expenditures compel the corporations to turn towards the system that has done so much harm to the churches of Europe. If and when religion declines in the states Darwin's science will automatically benefit enormously as it has in ungodly Europe, but Darwinistic social policies will not fare as well as they have in Christian America.

In the end what humanity chooses to believe will be more a matter of economics than of debate, deliberately considered choice, or reproduction. The more national societies that provide financial and physical security to the population, the fewer that will be religiously devout. The more that cannot provide their citizens with these high standards the more that will hope that supernatural forces will alleviate their anxieties. It is probable that there is little that can be done by either side to alter this fundamental pattern.



#133 zoolander

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 11:33 AM

Thanks for this info! The stuff I read was from textbooks and science mags back in the 1970s.


Those science mags are not the only things you are reading that is out dated.

Still, the Truth of the Scriptures and the promises made in them are too good to resist.


The "Truth" that you refer to is your "Truth" and your belief. The fact that you push your views so strongly whilst ignoring the flaws demonstrates that you just simply fear that the "Truth" you place so much faith in may not be the "Truth" at all.

The truth that you refer to, in most situations, is just an individual perception of reality.

#134 basho

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 12:26 PM

I'll always see God as the initiator and engineer of the process.

And when scientists reproduce the process, will man then be equal to God? I would say that makes us greater than God since we will have done it without resorting to any form of divine power. Even worse, if God was the initiator of a process that can be shown to occur naturally anyway, he must have been extremely busy killing every instance where this occurred in the natural environment to ensure his particular version was the one. Its a universal game of whack-a-mole.

Now Elijah, you must plainly realize that your viewpoint is known as God of the Gaps.

"The term goes back to Henry Drummond, a 19th century evangelical lecturer, from his Lowell Lectures on the Ascent of Man. He chastises those Christians who point to the things that science can not yet explain — "gaps which they will fill up with God" — and urges them to embrace all nature as God's, as the work of "... an immanent God, which is the God of Evolution, is infinitely grander than the occasional wonder-worker, who is the God of an old theology."

And some examples:

The Vikings believed that lightning was the path of Thor's hammer as he threw it across the sky at his enemies. Later on, however, scientists discovered that lightning is in fact the result of static charges building up between the Earth and clouds during a storm, resulting in movement of electrons to counteract the charge. Thor is not required to explain the existence of lightning. Other examples include disease (often thought to be punishment from a God for wrongdoing; it was later demonstrated to be linked to pathogens), the sun (often believed to be a god; later shown to be a star) and various other natural phenomena that were previously ascribed to divine intervention but were later shown to have purely natural causes. The lack of understanding about a phenomenon does not necessarily mean that a deity is responsible for its existence.



#135 william7

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 01:58 PM

I agree with you Elijah. God is a metaphysical postulate that is essentially unprovable

God is not unprovable. He's just not provable through the scientific method.

Since there is no evidence, and actually evidence to the contrary, for a loving caring God, the only possibility that we are left with -- an abstract deistic God entity -- loses much of its significance.

There's plenty of evidence for God. The problem is with the mind set you bring to the table when you evaluate that evidence. The Scriptures with their promise and the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of many people are substantial and compelling evidence.

It really is quite silly to question the scientific method and the theories it produces.

This doesn't sound like good logical or critical thinking to me. You're basically saying science is perfect and infallible. In my eyes, science is limited in what it can see and do.

During world war II there were theories in physics which indicated that large amounts of energy could be produced with the splitting of the atom. These "theories" were taken seriously and used to produced devastating weapons of mass destruction.

Even among those who are less than rational, there is no debating that these theories are TRUE and had/have VERY REAL effects on our world.

The theories on biological evolution have been arrived at using the same scientific method which was used to produce the atomic bomb.During world war II there were theories in physics which indicated that large amounts of energy could be produced with the splitting of the atom. These "theories" were taken seriously and used to produced devastating weapons of mass destruction.

Even among those who are less than rational, there is no debating that these theories are TRUE and had/have VERY REAL effects on our world.

The theories on biological evolution have been arrived at using the same scientific method which was used to produce the atomic bomb.

This is an excellent point. Those scientific mind's were very limited in moral knowledge so they produced and used the atomic bomb and we're still threatened by this problem, created back then, today. So you can see why I'm so distrustful of the scientific method in the hands of people without adequate moral knowledge to use it properly. Likewise, evolution is being misused to mislead and deny the existence of God.

Thus, doubting the reliability of the scientific method and the theories it produces are clearly indicative of an irrational mind set that possesses a level of cognitive bias so great that it is prevented from perceived the world as it really is (ie, a state of delusion).

This is all a matter of opinion and highly debatable. No psychiatrist, under current APA standards, is permitted to diagnose a delusional state for a belief in God.

Game, set, match.

I never played tennis or chess but I assume your implying you've won something here. I don't see the matter as a game. Life is serious business and should never be looked at as a game.

Now go talk to yourself pray some more.

I'll pray for you instead.

#136 william7

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 02:36 PM

Those science mags are not the only things you are reading that is out dated.


The Bible is never outdated. It's considered an all time bestseller. See http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/BT/

A perennial best-seller

The Holy Bible is regarded by millions as the written Word of the one and only true God. Indeed, the Bible claims this distinction for itself. In the eyes of many others it is highly regarded as a collection of some of the world's greatest literature.

The nonprofit American Bible Society has, in more than 180 years of its existence, distributed approximately as many Bibles as there are people in the world—some five billion. Millions of Bibles, reflecting numerous translations, are sold every year. Translations exist in more than 2,000 languages and dialects.

The Bible is especially popular wherever English is spoken. It is "the most widely known book in the English-speaking world . . . No one in the English-speaking world can be considered literate without a basic knowledge of the Bible" (E.D. Hirsch, Jr., Joseph F. Kett and James Trefil, The Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Houghton Mifflin Company, Boston, 1988, p. 1.). So within the English-speaking world, even where religions other than Christianity dominate, a basic knowledge of the Bible is essential if one is to be considered an educated citizen.

"Literate people in India, whose religious traditions are not based on the Bible but whose common language is English, must know about the Bible to understand English within their own country. All educated speakers of American English need to understand what is meant when someone describes a contest between David and Goliath or whether a person who has the 'wisdom of Solomon' is wise or foolish . . ." (ibid.).

Americans in particular attribute great influence to the Bible. In a survey by the Library of Congress and Book-of-the-Month Club, readers were asked what book had most influenced their lives. The Bible topped the list. In a 1938 Gallup poll the Bible was considered the most interesting of all books read that year. It was rated by a majority as more-interesting reading than the 1930s novel Gone With the Wind. However, in more secular Britain this is not the case. In a similar British survey the Bible came in 35th in a field of 50 books.

Yet the Bible is quoted by statesmen, politicians, philosophers, poets and even orbiting astronauts. People from all walks of life have found in its texts just the right words for innumerable situations. Its insights often provide the right accompaniment for moments of awe and inspiration, stress and anguish, confusion and doubt.


The "Truth" that you refer to is your "Truth" and your belief. The fact that you push your views so strongly whilst ignoring the flaws demonstrates that you just simply fear that the "Truth" you place so much faith in may not be the "Truth" at all.

The truth that you refer to, in most situations, is just an individual perception of reality.

Many people share with me the same belief in the truth of the Scriptures. It's not just me or a small minority of people. I've yet to feel the fear you mention.

#137 william7

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 03:16 PM

And when scientists reproduce the process, will man then be equal to God? I would say that makes us greater than God since we will have done it without resorting to any form of divine power.

I doubt very seriously that science will ever be able to turn inorganic substances into organic substances or recreate the DNA molecule from scratch.


Even worse, if God was the initiator of a process that can be shown to occur naturally anyway,

Nobody has shown or proven that the transformation of inorganic matter into organic matter occurred (so-called "naturally" by you) without the aid of a superior, creative, intelligence operating outside the conventional laws of physics.

Now Elijah, you must plainly realize that your viewpoint is known as God of the Gaps.

"The term goes back to Henry Drummond, a 19th century evangelical lecturer, from his Lowell Lectures on the Ascent of Man. He chastises those Christians who point to the things that science can not yet explain — "gaps which they will fill up with God" — and urges them to embrace all nature as God's, as the work of "... an immanent God, which is the God of Evolution, is infinitely grander than the occasional wonder-worker, who is the God of an old theology."

Makes sense to me. This is what the Bible says. God created everything. He's behind what's considered to be natural processes.
.

#138 advancedatheist

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 03:24 PM

I ran across this article independently. Another way to look at it: The number of nonbelievers alive today (~ 1 billion) exceeds the entire, nearly 100 percent religious human population alive at any given time before about 1850. By premodern demographic standards, we have the equivalent of a successfully atheized or at least secularized planet in our midst.

This spectacular and largely unplanned explosion in nonbelief casts doubt on claims that humans have "god genes," "god parts of the brain" and so forth.

WHY THE GODS ARE NOT WINNING, By Greg Paul and Phil Zuckerman

Gregory Paul is an independent researcher on subjects dealing with paleontology, evolution, religion and society. Books include Predatory Dinosaurs of the World and Dinosaurs of the Air, the latter is the subject of a PBS NOVA episode in production. His analysis showing the societal decline and inferiority of 1st world religion in the Journal of Religion and Society (moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html, the journal refuses to publish further papers on the subject) got Paul labeled the churches public enemy #1 by MSNBC, and denounced as un-American in the Wall Street Journal.


A sociologist at Pitzer, Phil Zuckerman is the author of Invitation to the Sociology of Religion, Du Bois on Religion, and Sex and Religion, and is working on a book that covers his ground breaking study of how Scandinavians are dealing with their secular societies. His Atheism: Contemporary Rates and Patterns in The Cambridge Companion to Atheism (Cambridge, Cambridge University Press, 2006) verifies the inability of popular religiosity to thrive in modern, egalitarian democracies.


WHY THE GODS ARE NOT WINNING

A myth is gaining ground. The myth seems plausible enough. The proposition is that after God died in the secular 20th century, He is back in a big way as people around the world again find faith. In 2006 Foreign Policy ran two articles that made similar, yet distinctive claims. In the spring Phillip Longman's "The Return of the Patriarchy" contended that secular folk are reproducing themselves, or failing to reproduce themselves, out of existence as the believers swiftly reproduce via a "process similar to survival of the fittest." In the summer FP followed up with "Why God is Winning" by Samuel Shah and Monica Duffy Toft, who pronounced that the Big Three— Christianity, Islam and Hinduism—are back on the global march as secularism fades into irrelevance. In the fall Foreign Affairs joined the chorus when Walter Russell Mead's God's Country? gave the impression that conservative theism continues to rise in a United States jolted back to the spiritual by 9/11. In American Fascists Chris Hedges warns that hard-core Dominionists are accumulating the power to convert the nation into a fundamentalist theocracy.

The actual situation, as is usual in human affairs, much more complex and nuanced, and therefore much more fascinating. Let's start by considering the analytical superficiality that mars the twin articles in Foreign Policy. While Longman proposes that rapid reproduction is the primary agent behind the resurgence of patriarchal faith, Shah and Toft think it is mainly a matter democratic choice in which younger generations reject their parent's secularism. In reality all these claims are well off base. Religion is in serious trouble. The status of faith is especially dire in the west, where the churches face an unprecedented crisis that threatens the existence of organized faith as a viable entity, and there is surprisingly little that can be done to change the circumstances.



#139 william7

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 03:36 PM

Wiki - Theistic Evolution

Theistic evolution, less commonly known as evolutionary creationism, is the general opinion that some or all classical religious teachings about God and creation are compatible with some or all of the modern scientific understanding about biological evolution. Theistic evolution is not a theory in the scientific sense, but a particular view about how the science of evolution relates to some religious interpretations. In this way, theistic evolution supporters can be seen as one of the groups who deny the conflict thesis regarding the relationship between religion and science; that is, they hold that religious teachings about creation and scientific theories of evolution need not be contradictory.

With this approach toward evolution, scriptural creation stories are typically interpreted as being allegorical in nature.


Deism

Deism is belief in a God or first cause based on reason, rather than on faith or revelation. Most deists believe that God does not interfere with the world or create miracles.

This is not my belief. I believe God does work in the world through miracles. I do believe the scriptural creation story was given as a simplification of a complex creation process He was unable to adequately explain to man due to mans' inability to grasp such a complex process in its entirety. God was also more concerned with explaining and conveying the importance of moral knowledge rather than technical, scientific knowledge for living a long and happy life.

#140 DJS

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 05:23 PM

Elijah3: I never played tennis or chess but I assume your implying you've won something here. I don't see the matter as a game. Life is serious business and should never be looked at as a game.


Elijah, it has been demonstrated that your reasoning abilities are deficient. I've won the argument multiple times. So have many of the other participants of this thread that have argued against you. You're like the punch drunk fighter who doesn't know when to stay down for the count.

This is an intellectual debate. Surely there is nothing wrong with someone trying to win their point, as long as the arguments are an honest attempt to arrive at the truth. Speaking of which...

This is an excellent point. Those scientific mind's were very limited in moral knowledge so they produced and used the atomic bomb and we're still threatened by this problem, created back then, today. So you can see why I'm so distrustful of the scientific method in the hands of people without adequate moral knowledge to use it properly.


This is yet another example of your intellectual trickery. Science can be used for good and bad. (BTW, it shouldn't be forgotten that the individual who issued the order for the detonation of atomic bombs on two civilian targets was a Baptist.)

The real point, however, is that it doesn't matter what you think of scientists or scientific progress. Technological development is spawned in part by the human competitive dynamic. Technology produces advantages and human beings love to gain competitive advantages. This isn't going to change. There were multiple nuclear projects underway before and during WWII (frances, germany, japan, etc). One of these scientific teams were going to develop nuclear technologies.

The steady advance of knowledge is unrelenting. How we use this knowledge (which is determined by our morals) is the crux of the matter. This needs to be acknowledge and addressed rationally if we have any hope of surviving this next century. Maintaining an inflexible moral framework that can not adapt to a rapidly changing social and technological environment is a recipe for disaster. People need to think more and be mindless moral automatons less.

The advancement of science isn't the problem, it is how people choose to utilize this advancement that is usually the problem. And most often, the poor choices in utilization stem from human irrationality which can be traced back to religion and the psychological dynamics which make religion possible.

#141 Live Forever

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 05:37 PM

And when scientists reproduce the process, will man then be equal to God? I would say that makes us greater than God since we will have done it without resorting to any form of divine power.

I doubt very seriously that science will ever be able to turn inorganic substances into organic substances or recreate the DNA molecule from scratch.

Don't be so sure. DNA building (even from scratch) should certainly be attainable at some point.

#142 luv2increase

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 05:48 PM

The advancement of science isn't the problem, it is how people choose to utilize this advancement that is usually the problem.  And most often, the poor choices in utilization stem from human irrationality which can be traced back to religion and the psychological dynamics which make religion possible.



I don't think it stems from religion. It stems from the desire for power. Many scientific ventures are initiated and fueled by the need of power. This stems from government not religion.

#143 luv2increase

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 06:01 PM

And when scientists reproduce the process, will man then be equal to God? I would say that makes us greater than God since we will have done it without resorting to any form of divine power.

I doubt very seriously that science will ever be able to turn inorganic substances into organic substances or recreate the DNA molecule from scratch.

Don't be so sure. DNA building (even from scratch) should certainly be attainable at some point.


If it does happen, which I am sure it will someday at the current rate of advancement, it will be by "intelligent design". ;)

#144 Live Forever

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 06:26 PM

And when scientists reproduce the process, will man then be equal to God? I would say that makes us greater than God since we will have done it without resorting to any form of divine power.

I doubt very seriously that science will ever be able to turn inorganic substances into organic substances or recreate the DNA molecule from scratch.

Don't be so sure. DNA building (even from scratch) should certainly be attainable at some point.


If it does happen, which I am sure it will someday at the current rate of advancement, it will be by "intelligent design". ;)


I of course agree. The point elijah was trying to make was that there are some things that separate God from man. Once man can do all of the things God was once given credit for, what is left for God? (Note: This has been happening for a long time. Before people knew disease was caused by germs they thought it was punishment from God, the Earth was once thought to be the center of the universe due to the Bible, etc. etc.)


Disclaimer: Of course this depends on your definition of "God". As discussed in the simulation thread, if we are living in a simulation (which I find very probable, but you will have to read that thread for the reasoning), then the runners of the simulation would be "God" to us. There are all types of concepts of "God" that do not mean a personal God that is the one described in the Bible, which is one that is exceedingly unlikely.

#145 luv2increase

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 07:17 PM

I of course agree. The point elijah was trying to make was that there are some things that separate God from man.


Of course there is. God has ultimate power to give us humans eternal life in the dimension in which resides Heaven. I also believe there is a literal hell which resides in a different dimension than Heaven or
Earth. God will either send our life force, aka soul, to Heaven or Hell once we die and leave this dimension. It is as simple as a judge having ultimate authority in the decision of a murderer being sent to life in prison OR death. Humans only have power and jurisdiction in this dimension which we have known all our lives, the dimension in which science and its laws reside. Once our mortal flesh gives way, we are then put into the hands of our Creator. We may be able to manipulate or understand, to the extent in which God allows us, the inner workings etc.. of this dimension but only this dimension.

Once man can do all of the things God was once given credit for, what is left for God?


This life is just a little bleep of our existence as a whole. God may not be needed by those who do not need or believe in him in this physical realm, but in the afterlife, God will be. The abilities and intelligence of man in irrelevant once we die.

Before people knew disease was caused by germs they thought it was punishment from God, the Earth was once thought to be the center of the universe due to the Bible, etc. etc.


I believe God put the diseases here on this Earth and everything else. This life is a stepping stone to the life in which there is no disease and no death. I think of it this way: this life as being a test, if one passes the test by abiding by the scripture, they will have eternal life with God. It is like there is a "ray". A ray has a beginning but no end. This is like our lives. We have a physical birth which is the start of the ray. Our life here on Earth is like a highlighted part of the ray. After the highlighted area, is the rest of our life in another dimension. Our physical body dies, but our soul will continue on in the ray.

I believe in predestination, hence I also believe in the simulation theory. I think that this world, in this dimension, is a simulation all put into motion by the God of the Bible. The Earth may not be the center of the universe in a "literal sense", but in the sense that the events and life here on Earth are the only things that having meaning and have "significance", more so like the center of attention. An example goes like this. There is a city. Everything is going like usual in the city. Everyone is working at their jobs, the children are in school etc... All of those happenings have nothing to do with your situation in the city. You are being held at gunpoint or held captive in the basement of of building within the city. Nothing in that city matters to you at that particular moment. Your situation is the center of attention in your world. This is how Earth is to the Universe. Earth is where all the happenings are happening. Stars collapsing at the other side of the universe is irrelevant to God, much like a child getting on a school bus on the other side of the city is irrelevant to you in your dilemma. The universe etc.. are just "fillers", much like redundant code in a computer program. One has to look past the physical that you can see with your eyes, feel with your hands, hear with your ears, and smell with your nose.

One has to see the "big picture". The "big picture" for us mortals is how we live our lives hear on Earth and abide by the commandments of our Creator. Everything else has no significance, after all, they are just fillers like in a vitamin capsule.

#146 william7

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 08:04 PM

Elijah, it has been demonstrated that your reasoning abilities are deficient. I've won the argument multiple times. So have many of the other participants of this thread that have argued against you. You're like the punch drunk fighter who doesn't know when to stay down for the count.

You're looking at our truth seeking debates as competitive win-lose games with a victor and a vanquished. This is not a good thing. Too much of that Nietzsche stuff, no doubt. Maybe I'm like Cool Hand Luke in that old prison movie. ;)

This is yet another example of your intellectual trickery. Science can be used for good and bad. (BTW, it shouldn't be forgotten that the individual who issued the order for the detonation of atomic bombs on two civilian targets was a Baptist.)

Truman was a politician brought to power through corrupt political practices that plagued United States back then from what I read in a biography of Harry Truman some time ago. The Baptist church is a protestant church that adheres to many of the false doctrines and practices of the catholic church. Because of this weakness, they're not able to bear or produce any real fruit. Truman was, more than likely, no different than other politicians in our history that were in the closet or uncover atheists. Notice Abraham Lincoln at http://en.wikipedia....ligious_beliefs. Atheist wolves in sheep's clothing out to get the vote by any means necessary - including deception.

The steady advance of knowledge is unrelenting. How we use this knowledge (which is determined by our morals) is the crux of the matter. This needs to be acknowledge and addressed rationally if we have any hope of surviving this next century. Maintaining an inflexible moral framework that can not adapt to a rapidly changing social and technological environment is a recipe for disaster. People need to think more and be mindless moral automatons less.

Reasoning from a proper moral framework is the only solution to the problem. It's too much thinking without a proper moral framework that's the problem.

#147 DJS

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 08:13 PM

LF: Disclaimer: Of course this depends on your definition of "God". As discussed in the simulation thread, if we are living in a simulation (which I find very probable, but you will have to read that thread for the reasoning), then the runners of the simulation would be "God" to us. There are all types of concepts of "God" that do not mean a personal God that is the one described in the Bible, which is one that is exceedingly unlikely.


LF, I think you'd agree with me that simulators (or "actualizers") would not meet the necessary criteria to qualify as "God". I've found that this is a difficult idea to convey to theists and atheists alike. Most individuals approach this topic with heavily entrenched biases. Tell a theist that you believe there is the possibility that our universe was created by an intelligent process and they assume you're referring to "God". Tell your typical atheist the same thing and they go into shut-down mode, with adamant denials about the possibility.

The paradox of mind/matter duality that we're witnessing in most areas of contemporary philosophical inquiry might eventually be reconciled with a monistic framework that possesses a refined conceptualization of the one fundamental substance of reality. However, even if this one substance proves to be *mind* or *intelligence* or *information* or *consciousness* or whatever you'd like to call it, I see no reason why we would label this state of affairs as "God" rather than just "Reality".

Yet another reason that I find a hybrid variant of the simulation scenario appealing is the balance it provides between intelligent and non-intelligent phenomena. Traditional theism places more emphasis on intelligence than the physical universe. Traditional naturalism places more emphasis on the physical universe and devalues intelligence. When it comes to an area such as metaphysics, which is utterly inaccessible to the scientific method, my crudely developed Bayesian reasoning anchors me tentatively in the center of the spectrum - favoring neither side of the dichotomy.

#148 DJS

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 08:55 PM


The advancement of science isn't the problem, it is how people choose to utilize this advancement that is usually the problem.  And most often, the poor choices in utilization stem from human irrationality which can be traced back to religion and the psychological dynamics which make religion possible.



I don't think it stems from religion. It stems from the desire for power. Many scientific ventures are initiated and fueled by the need of power. This stems from government not religion.


And you think that most religious organizations don't function by the same power dynamic?! [huh]

The underlying nature of human psychology has allowed us to achieve a great deal, but much of it has out grown its usefulness. Individuals being able to identify corruption and the unethical acquisition of power is vital to the future health of humanity. Unfortunately, individuals who are religious tend to be overly trusting sheep that allow themselves to be led to the slaughter. Religion retards (or perhaps is just indicative of the retardation?) critical thinking in the individual, which also deteriorates the stability of society as a whole.

#149 Live Forever

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 09:17 PM

LF, I think you'd agree with me that simulators (or "actualizers") would not meet the necessary criteria to qualify as "God".  I've found that this is a difficult idea to convey to theists and atheists alike.  Most individuals approach this topic with heavily entrenched biases.  Tell a theist that you believe there is the possibility that our universe was created by an intelligent process and they assume you're referring to "God".  Tell your typical atheist the same thing and they go into shut-down mode, with adamant denials about the possibility.

The paradox of mind/matter duality that we're witnessing in most areas of contemporary philosophical inquiry might eventually be reconciled with a monistic framework that possesses a refined conceptualization of the one fundamental substance of reality.  However, even if this one substance proves to be *mind* or *intelligence* or *information* or *consciousness* or whatever you'd like to call it, I see no reason why we would label this state of affairs as "God" rather than just "Reality".

Yet another reason that I find a hybrid variant of the simulation scenario appealing is the balance it provides between intelligent and non-intelligent phenomena.  Traditional theism places more emphasis on intelligence than the physical universe.  Traditional naturalism places more emphasis on the physical universe and devalues intelligence.  When it comes to an area such as metaphysics, which is utterly inaccessible to the scientific method, my crudely developed Bayesian reasoning anchors me tentatively in the center of the spectrum - favoring neither side of the dichotomy.

Well, again, I think it depends on what your definition of "God" is. If your definition of "God" is that which created everything, then whoever or whatever allowed that to happen would necessarily be considered "God". Now if we are talking about a specific "God" of a specific religion (Christianity, Islam, Greek mythology, whatever), or even the more general consensus of what "God" is outside of a specific religion, then I think it is pretty apparent that the evidence is exceedingly minute for such a being.

Of course, I am always open to new evidence and am willing to change my mind on any of my ideas should the evidence show itself.

#150 DJS

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 09:42 PM

LF: Well, again, I think it depends on what your definition of "God" is. If your definition of "God" is that which created everything, then whoever or whatever allowed that to happen would necessarily be considered "God".


Indeed, but simulation scenarios do not necessarily imply that the simulator is the creator of "everything".

What I am trying to argue is that all of the positions on this subject fall somewhere upon an evaluative spectrum. There could be an omnipotent intelligence (God) that creates all possible physical realities. There could be a physical reality that was not created by an intelligent process and has simply always existed, and within which intelligence is just a possible type of phenomenon. Or the truth could be somewhere in the middle, with intelligence being an integral part of the fabric of reality.




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