15 replies to this topic

[namco]

Hi,

Can anyone share their experience of this brand with me?

My doctor recommended this brand.

How does it compare with other 'big name' multiples?

http://www.purecaps....y00.asp?T1=PHN3

Many thanks for your help in advance.

[ajnast4r]

purecaps is a top tier company... one of the first i check when i need something
that product you posted is good

[krillin]

Good company, but that product is awful. Alpha tocopherol without the other vitamers, niacinamide, obsolete selenium, and way too much manganese. Green tea should also be taken away from minerals to keep it from binding to them and preventing absorption.

[ajnast4r]

Good company, but that product is awful. Alpha tocopherol without the other vitamers, niacinamide, obsolete selenium, and way too much manganese. Green tea should also be taken away from minerals to keep it from binding to them and preventing absorption.

small amount of a-t... given the amount of g-t in the normal diet, i dont see 100iu being a problem

everything ive seen against niacinimide is anecdotal at best

theres nothing wrong with selenomethionine... it by far got the most hard evidence proving its efficacy

the manganese is a bit high, but nothing to worry about

[krillin]

Good company, but that product is awful. Alpha tocopherol without the other vitamers, niacinamide, obsolete selenium, and way too much manganese. Green tea should also be taken away from minerals to keep it from binding to them and preventing absorption.

small amount of a-t... given the amount of g-t in the normal diet, i dont see 100iu being a problem

everything ive seen against niacinimide is anecdotal at best

theres nothing wrong with selenomethionine... it by far got the most hard evidence proving its efficacy

the manganese is a bit high, but nothing to worry about

Given the high price of this company's supplements, they should have no drawbacks and be better than their competitors. You can't get away with saying that the ingredients shouldn't hurt you too much or are almost as good as a cheaper product.

You need to get at least twice as much gamma as alpha. 100 IU = 66 mg alpha. It would take a bizarre diet to give you 132 mg of gamma without an extra supplement.

I see that you couldn't come up with a single reason someone should take niacinamide when they could be taking inositol hexanicotinate instead. Nuff said.

In head to head comparisons, Se-Methylselenocysteine greatly outperforms selenomethionine. It's newer, so of course it would have fewer studies.

The manganese IS something to worry about. You are being reckless.

http://www.aor.ca/in...ho_minerals.php

[ajnast4r]

Given the high price of this company's supplements, they should have no drawbacks and be better than their competitors. You can't get away with saying that the ingredients shouldn't hurt you too much or are almost as good as a cheaper product.

You need to get at least twice as much gamma as alpha. 100 IU = 66 mg alpha. It would take a bizarre diet to give you 132 mg of gamma without an extra supplement.

I see that you couldn't come up with a single reason someone should take niacinamide when they could be taking inositol hexanicotinate instead. Nuff said.

In head to head comparisons, Se-Methylselenocysteine greatly outperforms selenomethionine. It's newer, so of course it would have fewer studies.

The manganese IS something to worry about. You are being reckless.

http://www.aor.ca/in...ho_minerals.php

if you can point me to a cheaper product than the purecaps one, i might consider taking it


again the optimal g:a ratios are at best anecdotal... no one REALLY knows what is best
i HONESTLY do not see an extra 100iu alpha as being even a SLIGHT risk

if i had to choose, i would choose s-mc over s-mt, but that in no ways says s-mt is 'obsolete' or in any way ineffective


niacinimide has a pretty long history of usage and efficacy. the only reason ive ever heard anyone speak down about it, is a single anecdotal study done on yeast. which is not even enough to make me look twice at it.

i have yet to hear of a SINGLE case of manganese toxicity, other than miners inhaling it.
ive read that article by aor, but they dont mention how high the intake was... was it 10, 50, 100mg per day? if you have people consuming 50mg per day, its not fair to say that 10 could be a risk. thats not solid science. take a look into manganese metabolism and youll see why, unless your diet is abnormally high in manganese, 10mg supplemental is not a big deal.



anyway... the purecaps product is about 30$/month
ortho-core is about 45$/month
aor multi-basics is about 30$/month, and might be a better choice depending on how good your diet is

if you can afford the extra 15$/m, go with ortho core

[wayside]

Seems to me the amounts of much non-vitamin/non-mineral stuff in the PureEncapsulations are so small that they qualify only as label-dressing:

125 mcg of lycopene
50 mcg zeaxanthin
1.5 mg anthocyanins
5 mg ellagic acid
23 mg EGCG

Etc.

That's not to say OrthoCore doesn't do the same thing for a few items (1.8 mg of resv? Why bother?) but not to the extent that PureEncapsulations does.

You can find OrthoCore for around $35/bottle if you look around.

Plus, according to their web site, I can't buy it because I am not a "health professional". I can't even see the prices.

If you get it from your doctor it may qualify for various insurance programs such as a HCRA so that may be an advantage for PureEncapsulations.

Overall it seems like for an extra $5/month, OrthoCore is a better deal. Plus I don't have to find a doctor that carries it.

[krillin]

again the optimal g:a ratios are at best anecdotal... no one REALLY knows what is best
i HONESTLY do not see an extra 100iu alpha as being even a SLIGHT risk

Just so long as you take a separate gamma E product. But if this product provides all of your supplemental E, you're going to experience severe gamma E depletion. Bad. Very bad. Definitely bad.

if i had to choose, i would choose s-mc over s-mt, but that in no ways says s-mt is 'obsolete' or in any way ineffective

It's older and less effective. That's a textbook case of obsolescence. I didn't say it was ineffective.

niacinimide has a pretty long history of usage and efficacy. the only reason ive ever heard anyone speak down about it, is a single anecdotal study done on yeast. which is not even enough to make me look twice at it.

Resveratrol silences p53 through its effects on Sir2, and p53 causes apoptotic induction of premature cellular aging. Niacinamide abolishes this silencing. Do you feel lucky? What can niacinamide do for you that inositol hexanicotinate can't?

i have yet to hear of a SINGLE case of manganese toxicity, other than miners inhaling it.
ive read that article by aor, but they dont mention how high the intake was... was it 10, 50, 100mg per day? if you have people consuming 50mg per day, its not fair to say that 10 could be a risk. thats not solid science. take a look into  manganese metabolism and youll see why, unless your diet is abnormally high in manganese, 10mg supplemental is not a big deal.

10 mg is huge. The tolerable upper intake level for manganese is 11 mg per day. The highest dietary manganese intake at the ninety-fifth percentile was 6.3 mg/day in one study.

There's plenty of evidence of manganese toxicity by ingestion.

http://books.nap.edu...=10026&page=411

"Ecological Studies in Humans. There is some indication that high manganese intake in drinking water is associated with neuromotor deficits similar to Parkinson’s disease. Kondakis and coworkers (1989) studied people 50 years of age or older in three villages in Greece exposed to 3.6 to 14.6 mcg/L of manganese in drinking water (n = 62), 81.6 to 252.6 mcg/L (n = 49), or 1,800 to 2,300 mcg/L (n = 77). People drinking the water with the highest concentration of manganese had signs and symptoms of motor deficits. Kawamura and coworkers (1941) reported severe neurological symptoms in 25 people who drank water contaminated with manganese from dry cell batteries for 2 to 3 months. The concentration of manganese in the water was between 14 and 28 mg/L."

[ajnast4r]

proof 100iu supplemental causes 'severe gamma E' depletion?

yeast studies. not humans.

corellation is not causation and i would also say the manganese is a dry cell battery is a bit different than the aspartic acid salts in that purecaps product.


really this is a pointless argument... im sure we would go back and forth like this over 10 pages.


wayside made a good point about possibly being able to have insurance pay for the purecaps product.

i think what would be best is to print up an ingredient list from ortho-core and multi-basics, and bring it to your doctor. voice any concens over vitamin-E or manganese you may have, and see what his opinions are about the difference between the two products. theres a pretty significant difference between the amounts of certain vitamins in orthocore and the purecaps product(specifically b's)... i know purecaps make a lower potency product, so he may have recomended the higher potency one for a specific purpose.

[ageless]

Please don't compare this to ortho core or multi basics... obviously they haven't put the effort to meet the same high standards as AOR has. Their science isn't there and you are the only one who seems to argue this point without basis.

[krillin]

proof 100iu supplemental causes 'severe gamma E' depletion?

Arrogance and ignorance are a terrible combination.

Clin Sci (Lond). 2002 Apr;102(4):447-56.
A European multicentre, placebo-controlled supplementation study with alpha-tocopherol, carotene-rich palm oil, lutein or lycopene: analysis of serum responses.
Olmedilla B, Granado F, Southon S, Wright AJ, Blanco I, Gil-Martinez E, van den Berg H, Thurnham D, Corridan B, Chopra M, Hininger I.

Unidad de Vitaminas, Seccion de Nutricion, Clinica Puerta de Hierro, C/San Martin de Porres 4, 28035-Madrid, Spain. bolmedilla@hpth.insalud.es

Increased levels of oxidative stress have been implicated in tissue damage and the development of chronic diseases, and dietary antioxidants may reduce the risk of oxidative tissue damage. As part of a European multicentre project, several studies were undertaken with the aim of testing whether the consumption of foods rich in carotenoids reduces oxidative damage to human tissue components. We describe here the serum response of carotenoids and tocopherols upon supplementation with carotenoids from natural extracts (alpha-carotene+beta-carotene, lutein or lycopene; 15 mg/day) and/or with alpha-tocopherol (100 mg/day) in a multicentre, placebo-controlled intervention study in 400 healthy male and female volunteers, aged 25-45 years, from five European regions (France, Northern Ireland, Republic of Ireland, The Netherlands and Spain). Supplementation with alpha-tocopherol increased serum alpha-tocopherol levels, while producing a marked decrease in serum gamma-tocopherol. Supplementation with alpha- + beta-carotene (carotene-rich palm oil) resulted in 14-fold and 5-fold increases respectively in serum levels of these carotenoids. Supplementation with lutein (from marigold extracts) elevated serum lutein (approx. 5-fold), zeaxanthin (approx. doubled) and ketocarotenoids (although these were not present in the supplement), whereas lycopene supplementation (from tomato paste) resulted in a 2-fold increase in serum lycopene. The isomer distributions of beta-carotene and lycopene in serum remained constant regardless of the isomer composition in the capsules. In Spanish volunteers, additional data showed that the serum response to carotenoid supplementation reached a plateau after 4 weeks, and no significant side effects (except carotenodermia) or changes in biochemical or haematological indices were observed throughout the study. This part of the study describes dose-time responses, isomer distribution, subject variability and side effects during supplementation with the major dietary carotenoids in healthy subjects.

PMID: 11914107

yeast studies. not humans.

To quote Dr. Cox: Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

J Biol Chem. 2002 Nov 22;277(47):45099-107. Epub 2002 Sep 23.
Inhibition of silencing and accelerated aging by nicotinamide, a putative negative regulator of yeast sir2 and human SIRT1.
Bitterman KJ, Anderson RM, Cohen HY, Latorre-Esteves M, Sinclair DA.

Department of Pathology, Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts 02115, USA.

The Saccharomyces cerevisiae Sir2 protein is an NAD(+)-dependent histone deacetylase that plays a critical role in transcriptional silencing, genome stability, and longevity. A human homologue of Sir2, SIRT1, regulates the activity of the p53 tumor suppressor and inhibits apoptosis. The Sir2 deacetylation reaction generates two products: O-acetyl-ADP-ribose and nicotinamide, a precursor of nicotinic acid and a form of niacin/vitamin B(3). We show here that nicotinamide strongly inhibits yeast silencing, increases rDNA recombination, and shortens replicative life span to that of a sir2 mutant. Nicotinamide abolishes silencing and leads to an eventual delocalization of Sir2 even in G(1)-arrested cells, demonstrating that silent heterochromatin requires continual Sir2 activity. We show that physiological concentrations of nicotinamide noncompetitively inhibit both Sir2 and SIRT1 in vitro. The degree of inhibition by nicotinamide (IC(50) < 50 microm) is equal to or better than the most effective known synthetic inhibitors of this class of proteins. We propose a model whereby nicotinamide inhibits deacetylation by binding to a conserved pocket adjacent to NAD(+), thereby blocking NAD(+) hydrolysis. We discuss the possibility that nicotinamide is a physiologically relevant regulator of Sir2 enzymes.

PMID: 12297502

corellation is not causation and i would also say the manganese is a dry cell battery is a bit different than the aspartic acid salts in that purecaps product.

Have you ever taken a chemistry class in your life? Manganese dissolved in drinking water from a battery will be mostly the Mn2+ ion. Manganese aspartate forms Mn2+ and aspartate ions. Even if they had different oxidation states, manganese's oxidation state changes in the body, so it doesn't matter what form it's in initially, just so long as it gets absorbed. The route (oral or inhaled) doesn't matter either. The dose is all that matters.

I am totally baffled by your recklessness. We know the mechanism of manganese's toxicity and we have scads of people who have been hurt by it. Why would you subject yourself to this risk when high dose manganese is pointless? To save $5 a month?

i think what would be best is to print up an ingredient list from ortho-core and multi-basics, and bring it to your doctor. voice any concens over vitamin-E or manganese you may have, and see what his opinions are about the difference between the two products.

The doctor sells the stuff. He's hardly going to admit that there's anything wrong with it. Heck, most doctors are so clueless that he likely isn't even aware of the problems.

[ajnast4r]

Arrogance and ignorance are a terrible combination.

not necessary to say that on this forum
debates happen often, we always keep them polite

Supplementation with alpha-tocopherol increased serum alpha-tocopherol levels, while producing a marked decrease in serum gamma-tocopherol

so... lower blood levels of g-t directly after ingestion of a-t, somehows equals severe g-t depletion...
ok

We show that physiological concentrations of nicotinamide noncompetitively inhibit both Sir2 and SIRT1 in vitro.

interesting. ill look into it further

We know the mechanism of manganese's toxicity and we have scads of people who have been hurt by it. Why would you subject yourself to this risk when high dose manganese is pointless? To save $5 a month?

im not a chemistry major, but i know that different forms of the same mineral have drastically different levels of toxicity.
sodium selenite, s-mt & s-mc... would all yield selenium + something, correct? but the amounts of each you can safely consume vary pretty drastically.

i know of people who have been taking perque's multi which has 15mg of manganese for 10+ years, and show no signs of manganese toxicity.

...

he said his doctor recomends... not sells
ill agree with you on the clueless part, but his doctor is probably slightly less clueless than avg as he recomended purecaps and not centrum

[krillin]

so... lower blood levels of g-t directly after ingestion of a-t, somehows equals severe g-t depletion...
ok

If something has been depleted that means that it is lower. (BTW, do you believe that lowering blood gamma tocopherol is a good thing?)

im not a chemistry major, but i know that different forms of the same mineral have drastically different levels of toxicity.
sodium selenite, s-mt & s-mc... would all yield selenium + something, correct? but the amounts of each you can safely consume vary pretty drastically.

With manganese, it's only going to be absorbed as manganese ions. Manganese contamination in drinking water is all ions, and manganese aspartate is soluble so it separates into manganese and aspartate ions in water.

Selenium is more complicated. See figure 2 in the following.

http://aor.ca/us/mag...2003_Spring.pdf

i know of people who have been taking perque's multi which has 15mg of manganese for 10+ years, and show no signs of manganese toxicity.

Parkinson's doesn't show up until most of the dopamine-producing cells are gone. 10 years isn't long enough to guarantee safety.

[mediumspiny]

Parkinson's doesn't show up until most of the dopamine-producing cells are gone. 10 years isn't long enough to guarantee safety.

Yes and no. If something is sufficiently neurotoxic, as MPTP was found to be, Parkinson's (or something similar) can occur after just one drug dose.

[ajnast4r]

If something has been depleted that means that it is lower. (BTW, do you believe that lowering blood gamma tocopherol is a good thing?)

i dont know to be honest. its hard to say as i dont under the exact way e-vitamers are metabolized.
i do know the temporarily lowering serum levels doesnt necessarily mean a cellular defecit.

Parkinson's doesn't show up until most of the dopamine-producing cells are gone. 10 years isn't long enough to guarantee safety.

that battery acid thing was 2-3 months?



either way i think its safe to say that we all agree that aor's producs are superior.
in fact i sent an email to them today complaining about their use of gelatin as a carrier for vitamin-d
if they changed that, ide def take it

[krillin]

that battery acid thing was 2-3 months?

Look at how high the concentration was: 14-28 mg/L.