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Best Anti-Depressant


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#1 lucid

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 09:51 AM


I have recently tried taking a few low dose anti-depressants; however, there have been unpleasant side effects for each.
I suppose that this is particularly relevant where as (this kind of blew my mind)

In the United States a 2005 independent report stated that 11% of women and 5% of men in the non-Insitutionalised population (2002) now take antidepressants


So far I have tried Cymbalta and Wellbutrin.

Cymbalta is a Serotonin reuptake inhibitor and a norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor.
On Cymbalta I began to have Sexual problems which lasted for a weeks after taking it, other than that I really enjoyed the anti-depressant part of cymbalta. Apparently this is very common with SSRI's.

Unaware of the possibility of this long-lasting effect, most physicians automatically attribute it to psychological causes. But experiments with rodents have shown that chronic treatment with SSRIs at a young age results in permanently decreased sexual behavior that persists into adulthood and is similar to PSSD[11][12]. At the cerebral molecular level there are profound and permanent reductions in both the rate-limiting serotonin synthetic enzyme, tryptophan hydroxylase, in dorsal raphe and in serotonin transporter (SERT) expression in cortex. It is not known whether PSSD in rodents exactly recapitulates the human condition, but the long term neurobehavioral consequences are very similar[13]. Long-term alterations in gene expression may result from disturbances in 5-HT neurotransmission in the brain of the animals.

ithout tools to accurately measure neurotransmitter levels and to allow for continuous monitoring during treatment, it is impossible to know if one is correctly targeting a deficient neurotransmitter (i.e. correcting an imbalance), reaching a desirable level, or even introducing too much of a particular neurotransmitter. Thus it has been argued that SSRIs can actually cause chemical imbalances and abnormal brain states.[31] One possible mechanism is by inhibition of dopaminergic neurotransmission,[32] resulting in described persistent sexual dysfunction.


Wellbutrin is a a norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor, dopamine reuptake inhibitor, and a nicotinic antagonist.
On Wellbutrin I began to be very agitated and began to go through small manic and depressive cycles. I guess I know what it feels like to be bipolar now...

Apparently Wellbutrin acts as a SSRI sexual dysfunction correcter.

Several studies have indicated that bupropion also relieves sexual dysfunction among non-depressed patients. After a 12-weeks course in a mixed male/female double-blind study, 63% of subjects on bupropion rated their condition as improved or much improved vs. only 3% of subjects on placebo.


All of this sounds like garbage, I don't want sexual dysfunction or anger problems en leu of mild depression. Anyone have any experience with an anti-depressant that works well or dosage or combination of drugs that work well? Anyone had good experiences with supplements for treating depression?(I think I read somewhere St. Johns Wart may help)

Most studies conclude that St. John's wort is usually as effective against depressions as other modern medication, again with fewer side effects, and it is widely prescribed for depression in Europe. A recent study showed St. John's wort to be no more effective than a placebo in cases of severe depression, although an SSRI was also no more effective on the primary outcome measure.

I am willing to give about anything a shot where as I am pretty unpleased with my drug experience.

Edited by lucid, 12 May 2007 - 10:03 AM.


#2 ageless

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 01:43 PM

I have used AOR's SAMe as well as St. John's Wort standardized for 3-5% hyperforin with great success. Fish oil for synergy with any anti-depressant. AOR's Methyl Donors and I also like AOR's Turbo Tyro Tea which helps raise dopamine and energy when taken on an empty stomach first thing in the morning.

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#3 spaceistheplace

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 02:15 PM

from my own experience, st. john's wort does not work.

the best thing i've found so far is rhodiola rosea extract...and when i cut wheat from my diet.

#4 lynx

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 02:33 PM

Try Lexapro, it is probably the most specific SSRI out there and has the best side effect profile. It also has "acute" effects, which most anti-depressants, other than amineptine(banned) don't have.

#5 Shepard

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 04:21 PM

I'm going to throw out my crazy approach once again: analyze your diet/exercise/lifestyle first.

#6 Shannon Vyff

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 04:25 PM

exercise--diet! even self/help psychology... Back in 03 I tried wellbutrin and some others anti-depressents but never got more than 3 weeks with any one of them-- I did better treating myself by increasing my exercise... eating more healthy fats/ protein (I was extreme CR at the time--5'10'' 116/117, I stay at 126/127 now)

#7 xanadu

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 06:47 PM

RSV is a known mood booster. You have to find the right dose for you and it seems to take a week or so to kick in. The best antidepressant I know of is salvia divinorum. Finding the proper dose for each patient can be tricky. Larger amounts must be used if its consumed in a "quid" than if it's smoked. Generally, 1/16 to 1/4 gram is plenty when smoked. The antidepressant effects usually start within an hour or so. Do a search in this website for more information on it.

St Johns can have a beneficial effect for some people. Sam-e works for some though I never used it myself. A good diet avoiding refined sugar helps.

#8 edward

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 06:54 PM

St. John's Wort - Worthless in my opinion
SAMe - Worthless for depression

Rhodiola - Very good if you don't want to go the pharmaceutical route but you need something for dopamine and norepineprine


From my experience with depression (been on antidepressants for 15+ years and tried everything) you need to address Serotonin, Norepineprine and Dopamine. If you don't address each of these you will have an incomplete recovery.


There are many ways to do this successfully, for instance:

Stack 1 (very simple, effective and if you have a Psychiatrist and Insurance its cheap)

Welbutrin 300 mg (addresses Dopamine and Norepineprine, also reduces or eliminates the sexual side effects of Prozac)
Prozac 20-60 mg (addresses Serotonin and a little Norepinephrine)


I was on this stack for many years. Currently I am taking other supplements, smart drugs, herbs etc. that make this stack too much so currently I am addressing the Serotonin, Dopamine and Norepineprine in the following manner.

Deprenyl 1mg per day (addresses dopamine mainly and a little norepinephrine)
Prozac 20-40 mg (addresses serotonin and a little norepinephrine currently I am going down to 20 mg as there are so many pro serotonin things I am taking
Rhodiola 250 mg twice per day
Modafinil 25 mg (very small dosage but enough to boost norepinephrine)

Edit: I also take RSV which seems to boost my mood (supposedly its a SNRI but I'm not totally convinced but along with Rhodiola has prompted my reduction of prozac from 60mg to 40 mg and now 20 mg

coclusion: it doesnt really matter how you do it but from my experience address Serotonin, Dopamine and Norepinephrine and tweak dosages to what works best for your body)

Note: GABA enhancing substances such as theanine (also affects dopamine) and ashwagandha are beneficial
Cholinergic substances are great for memory and learning but make sure you have dopamine support as these have been reported to deepen depression

Edited by edward, 12 May 2007 - 08:30 PM.


#9 xanadu

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 09:30 PM

"From my experience with depression (been on antidepressants for 15+ years and tried everything)"

But you never tried salvia which is the best so you hardly tried everything. You have been brainwashed by the medical establishment. I see you admit that rsv lifts your mood. This has been reported by many people.

#10 rwoodin

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 11:10 PM

I've been on anti-depressants for about 5 years. I had to try a few diffierent ones, which didn't work for me due to intolerance of the side effects. The first one that really worked for me was wellbutrin. After about a year, I found out through experience what has been noted in this thread. You need to address the seratonin as well as dopamine. I went on Prozac in addition to the wellbutrin. First 10mg and then 20mg. That's what I take now for depression. Prozac 20mg and wellbutrin xl 300mg. I works fairly well for me. There are some mild sedative/lethargic effects with it for me but overall the benefits of being (mostly) not depressed far outway the drawbacks. Another thing to note is you really have to give most of the meds some time to aceive the theraputic effect. Initially, they can really wire you out big time. That side effect fades with time or at least it did for me.

#11 tintinet

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 12:46 AM

Never tried SSRIs. Favor high EPA doses (>1gm/day), t-resveratrol ("high" doses- whatever that may be for you- 100 mg or 1 gram...), whole foods, mostly, if not completely vegetarian, with no refined grains, sugar. But caffeine, theobromine, and theanine from coffee, cocoa, and tea- can't get enough! Exercise, exercise, exercise, sunshine, fresh air, pure H20, etc.

#12

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 01:29 AM

Inositol is a good suppliment. (don't take it with St. John's Wort with it, it may cause serotonin syndrome) Other suppliments you may want to look into are Mega- DHA, Flax Oil, Krill, Oil and Cod liver oil. Hope you find what works for you!!!

#13 spaceistheplace

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 04:21 AM

i also forgot to mention that bacopa has really helped me with depression...and i've tried most everything out there.

#14 ajnast4r

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 04:42 AM

rhodiola & 5htp
cycled back and forth (neve rtaken together)

eliminating wheat worked wonders, but im allergic

#15 ora101

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 08:20 AM

Vitamin D, rhodiola (excellent for stress reduction -> indirect mood boost)

#16 lucid

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 05:28 AM

Thanks for all the feed back.
I have gotten some St. Johns wort and have been taking it for about 3 days. I have had some mood improvements, but this could be related to other factors: placebo, workout, spending time with family etc...

I'm going to throw out my crazy approach once again: analyze your diet/exercise/lifestyle first.

Yeh, The ultimate goal is to change my life habits so that I display and feel less symptoms of depression. However, its hard to be motivated and go get em when all you want to do is stay in bed. I think anti-depressents can be very helpful in jump starting the whole 'get out of depression' thing. I don't think taking them long term should be a goal and I hope that I don't have anything to do with them in about a year.

I guess that I will try taking st.johns wort and wellbutrin and cymbalta and hopefully they will all work together ok. Im going to be carefull of overdoing the serotonin with cymbalta and st. johns wort though. I might give rhodiola a shot after I try out the rest of that. And of course I have been already taking fish oil. Thanks for all your response, I wish my shrink gave me a run down like this. Oh well I guess I am just another overpaying client to him. (He is a nice guy though)

#17 ajnast4r

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 05:38 AM

rhodiola (excellent for stress reduction -> indirect mood boost)


i get a direct and very perceptable mood boost from rhodiola

#18 tintinet

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 08:07 AM

IIRC, St. John's Wort usually has a later onset (i.e. weeks after starting therapy.).

IME, exercise along with fresh air and sunshine (when available) are the quickest remedy.

#19 ikaros

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 11:25 AM

I've taken all the SSRIs out there, most suck and don't work (I guess it depends on everyone's unique neurochemistry) and right now I'm back on fluoxetine which seems 50% effective. It isn't as sedatating as other SSRIs and combined with little modafinil works very well.
I also have liked rhodiola from the nonpharmaceutical field, but the damn thing loses it's effect after one week and I have to be off from it at least 3-4 weeks to feel the mood-enhancement and attentional improvement again.

St John's Wort, bacopa, cholinergics, vitamins, fishoil are in my experience quite useless. They might support long-term brain health, but their acute effectiveness is dubious.

Btw Edward, fluoxetine also increases cortical dopamine in additon to norepinephrine.

Depression is such a multifaceted disorder (if it can be called that at all) that every case is unique on its own and trying to figure out what is the best for an individual requires trial and more trial. Sometimes you need a boost, sometimes you need a break and thus according to your mood and personality you have to determine which med would suit you best. SSRIs are not all the same.

The best antidepressant I know of is salvia divinorum.


A psychedelic...hmm I'd not want to go work in the morning seeing unicorns riding on a rainbow. [wis]

Edited by ikaros, 16 May 2007 - 07:31 AM.


#20 ageless

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 02:41 PM

I have used AOR's SAMe as well as St. John's Wort standardized for 3-5% hyperforin with great success. Fish oil for synergy with any anti-depressant. AOR's Methyl Donors and I also like AOR's Turbo Tyro Tea which helps raise dopamine and energy when taken on an empty stomach first thing in the morning.


I'd like to add Vit. D3 and Resveratrol to my list. Ensuring adequate testosterone levels is also essential in men.

#21 ikaros

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 06:09 PM

Ensuring adequate testosterone levels is also essential in men.


What about possible increase in aggressive behaviour?

#22 tintinet

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 06:17 PM

Exercise, fresh air, to wit! Study of the Obvious!

#23 ikaros

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 08:41 PM

fresh air


If fresh air did the trick, Big Pharma would have been the most ridiculous business idea of the millenia.

#24 lucid

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 09:09 PM

After the country walk, 71 per cent reported decreased levels of depression and said they felt less tense, while 90 per cent reported increased self-esteem.

After the shopping centre walk only 45 per cent said they experienced a decrease in depression and 22 per cent said they felt more depressed. Fifty per cent also felt more tense and 44 per cent said their self-esteem had dropped after window-shopping.

It would be interesting to know how long they found the anti-depressant effect lasted.

Here is an interesting excerpt from The Last American Man:

"I live," Eustace said, "in nature, where everything is connected, circular. The seasons are circular. The planet is circular, and so is its passage around the sun. The course of water over the earth is circular, coming down from the sky and circulating through the world to spread life and then evaporating up again. I live in a circular teepee and I build my fire in a circle, and when my loved ones visit me, we sit in a circle and talk. The life cycles of plants and animals are circular. I live outside where I can see this. The ancient people understood that our world is a circle, but we modern people have lost sight of that. I don't live inside buildings, because buildings are dead places where nothing grows, where water doesn't flow, and where life stops. I don't want to live in a dead place. People say that I don't live in the real world, but it's modern Americans who live in a fake world, because they've stepped outside the natural circle of life.

"Do people live in circles today? No. They live in boxes. They wake up every morning in the box of their bedroom because a box next to them started making beeping noises to tell them it was time to get up. They eat their breakfast out of a box and then they throw that box away into another box. Then they leave the box where they live and get into a box with wheels and drive to work, which is just another big box broken up into lots of little cubicle boxes where a bunch of people spend their days sitting and staring at the computer boxes in front of them. When the day is over, everyone gets into the box with wheels again and goes home to their house boxes and spends the evening staring at the television boxes for entertainment. They get their music from a box, they get their food from a box, they keep their clothing in a box, they live their lives in a box! Does that sound like anybody you know?"

Its like that quote from office space:

Michael, I realized that we don't
have a lot of time on this earth. We weren't meant to spend it this
way. Human beings weren't meant to sit in little cubicles, starring at
computer screens all day, filling out useless forms and listening to
eight different bosses drone on about mission statements.

I am pretty sure that being part of the outdoors will be a requirement for a healthy life for me. Right now I go to school in Atlanta and live in a frat house, so hmmm...

#25 xanadu

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 09:35 PM

QUOTE
The best antidepressant I know of is salvia divinorum.


A psychedelic...hmm I'd not want to go work in the morning seeing unicors riding on a rainbow.


It is not used as a psychedelic. It is used in small doses for the other effects. I think the fact it's a disassociative has something to do with it's efficacy. It allows you to disassociate from the negative emotions and moods you are experiencing. I feel fresh and clean inside after using some. Do a search on this site for posts with more info. I can't reinvent the wheel each time with all the tips and so on.

#26 luv2increase

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 04:09 AM

Although this is the supplement forum, I believe that exercise in any way shape or form is the best anti-depressant and healthiest too.

#27 tintinet

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 06:27 PM

If fresh air did the trick, Big Pharma would have been the most ridiculous business idea of the millenia.


Right- like how many people actually get exercise in fresh air, for a few hours a day, every day?

If they did, I'll bet anti-depressant prescriptions (as well prescriptions of many other meds) would plummet.

#28 edward

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Posted 17 May 2007 - 02:24 AM

My rant about alternative depression treatments:

I am going to say this once and get it out of my system. First off I am a huge believer in alternative treatments, supplementation and a healthy lifestyle and anyone who has read my posts on here can attest to that. I have supplemented a whole host of the most popular supplements all my life (including many that supposedly help with mood) and have actively exercised between 3 and 7 days a week since about the age of 12 yet I still developed clinical depression, so bad that I was hospitalized at age 17 (even while exercising and supplementing). Antidepressants saved my life and continue to be a part of my of my daily routine even now over ten years later. I have tried to go off them for months at a time while trying St. John's Wort, SAMe and other supposed treatments. (While still exercising and taking the latest supplements as I have for most of my life) These alternative treatments simply did not work. I find it very disturbing when I read about people (who obviously have never had clinical depression or a medical degree of any sort) try to give advice to people about ditching antidepressants in favor of alternative treatments. Suicide (the end result of untreated or mistreated depression) is no joke, been there almost did that. If any of you have read my posts I am a huge believer in alternative, nutritional and complimentary medicine (see my successful herbal treatment for low testosterone compared to Testim Gel thread along with the lab results). That being said though, there is a place for modern medicine and in this case I have ample personal experience. If you have clinical depression (not just wanting something to lift your spirits a little) you need antidepressants and therapy. Yes exercise, nutrition and a whole host of supplements are helpful but without pharmaceutical help the prognosis is not very good at least if you are dead set on going the alternative route get a Physician or Naturopath or someone qualified in some way to monitor your progress and be a safety net.

Alright I'm done. :)

#29 tintinet

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Posted 17 May 2007 - 07:49 AM

My rant about alternative depression treatments:

I am going to say this once and get it out of my system. First off I am a huge believer in alternative treatments, supplementation and a healthy lifestyle and anyone who has read my posts on here can attest to that. I have supplemented a whole host of the most popular supplements all my life (including many that supposedly help with mood) and have actively exercised between 3 and 7 days a week since about the age of 12 yet I still developed clinical depression, so bad that I was hospitalized at age 17 (even while exercising and supplementing). Antidepressants saved my life and continue to be a part of my of my daily routine even now over ten years later. I have tried to go off them for months at a time while trying St. John's Wort, SAMe and other supposed treatments. (While still exercising and taking the latest supplements as I have for most of my life) These alternative treatments simply did not work. I find it very disturbing when I read about people (who obviously have never had clinical depression or a medical degree of any sort) try to give advice to people about ditching antidepressants in favor of alternative treatments. Suicide (the end result of untreated or mistreated depression) is no joke, been there almost did that. If any of you have read my posts I am a huge believer in alternative, nutritional and complimentary medicine (see my successful herbal treatment for low testosterone compared to Testim Gel thread along with the lab results). That being said though, there is a place for modern medicine and in this case I have ample personal experience. If you have clinical depression (not just wanting something to lift your spirits a little) you need antidepressants and therapy. Yes exercise, nutrition and a whole host of supplements are helpful but without pharmaceutical help the prognosis is not very good at least if you are dead set on going the alternative route get a Physician or Naturopath or someone qualified in some way to monitor your progress and be a safety net.

Alright I'm done. :)


Well stated!

I agree: if you are in the throws of DSM-IV diagnostic clinical depression, get professional help, ASAP!

ISTM, a good percentage of the US population suffers from mild "dysthymic" depressed mood. For the latter,
alternative therapies, including exercise, fresh air, whole foods, etc., may provide the necessary benefit alone.

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#30 xanadu

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Posted 17 May 2007 - 07:02 PM

Eduard, I read your rant and your statement that "alternative" treatments didn't work and only pharmaceuticals worked for you. Have you tried salvia? If not, then you haven't tried the most effective treatment known. Saying you tried all the others doesn't cut it. You must try the best.




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