46 replies to this topic

[Brainbox]

They've organised "better" PR then the lot of us.

[Brainbox]

Well, I have quite a sarcastic mood lately to be honest.

What I really want to express in this situation is that bypassing our western ethic value's, e.g. "thy shall not indoctrinate", enables some organisations to influence people very effectively. It is effective in getting the message across, regardless the despicable form that is used.

I really have no idea how to deal with this. How can the western world deal with this without lowering our standards? And how can this be answered without increasing polarisation instead of decreasing it? I don't know.

It's old news btw., but it can't do any harm to give it some more attention I guess.

[Mind]

The radical Islamists have been teaching racism and hatred to their children for a long time but I think this may be a new low.

Most estimates claim only about 20% of muslims worldwide believe in this type of indoctrination into violence and hatred. I hope they are correct.

[mike250]

I would be careful of any such ''estimates'' personally speaking.

[Live Forever]

20% is still too high.

[mike250]

thats if its 20% in the first place.

[Live Forever]

thats if its 20% in the first place.

Any % above 0% is too high

[mike250]

I don't think you'll find 0% anywhere in the world.

[Live Forever]

I don't think you'll find 0% anywhere in the world.

I don't think so either, it would just be nice if we could.

[mike250]

well wonder, I sincerely hope that one day all hatred is at 0%.

[Shannon Vyff]

Hamas is very poor. The situation with the show is sad, I've watched many documentaries relevant to the on-going conflict in that area. They are being oppressed, and see little options other than violence--although the majority--the educated--many leaders say they want to be treated with basic human rights through diplomacy.

We could do our own ImmInst television show, don't think many kids would like to watch what I could do on Public Access T.V. show here though. The atheists do a show, they take guests--I should see about coming on to talk about educating children, talk about my book and such... I'll update if I ever get to do it, of course.

[xanadu]

wing girl is correct. The palestinians are the ones being oppressed and here we have people telling us they have no right to resist. What do you think Israeli children are being taught? That is kept secret from us but we see the result of their actions. Israel has invaded and occupied arab land ever since it's inception. All we ever get in our mass media is indoctrination against the poor people who are having their land and heritage stolen from them and destroyed. Then if they ever try to fight back they are called terrorists. Israel is allowed to kill, oppress, invade and occupy but if the palestinians fight back they are "terrorists". Who are the ones being propagandised here?

[xanadu]

"Israeli children are not taught hatred."

Where does it come from then?

"Israel's goal is to live in peace"

And they do this by invading other lands, killing and oppressing the population, false imprisonment without charges etc. Is this what you call living in peace?

"The tend to show only the Palestinians children being killed. It really is very unbalanced reporting because sadly we still live in an anti-semitic world."

Gee, do you suppose that if they stopped killing children then this would not be reported? You never thought of that, did you? "anti semitic" seems to mean telling the truth. Or do you deny that israel has systematically invaded and terrorized the region? Do you deny that they murder people on the basis of rumors and tips? Do you deny that they kill many bystanders while doing their "targeted strikes"? Or do you think that these are good things to do?

Don't reply by whining about all the things the palestinians have done. Answer the questions. You are the one who started the topic.

[mike250]

well I think both sides have suffered quite a lot and it seems like this conflict is not ending anytime soon. I hope they can come to some sort of agreement.

[Brainbox]

Xanadu, like I said before, you lack a proper historical perspective. Your ignorance on this subject is exceptional. And yet you cultivate your ignorance in stead of doing something about it. Bah.

[knite]

wing girl is correct. The palestinians are the ones being oppressed and here we have people telling us they have no right to resist. What do you think Israeli children are being taught? That is kept secret from us but we see the result of their actions. Israel has invaded and occupied arab land ever since it's inception. All we ever get in our mass media is indoctrination against the poor people who are having their land and heritage stolen from them and destroyed. Then if they ever try to fight back they are called terrorists. Israel is allowed to kill, oppress, invade and occupy but if the palestinians fight back they are "terrorists". Who are the ones being propagandised here?

Well this is a very anti-semitic comment. Israeli children are not taught hatred. Israel's goal is to live in peace but if you are going to have irrational and hate filled people (taught this hate since birth) Then Israel will fight back. If you look closley you will also see that the US does not represent Israel in a positive manner. The tend to show only the Palestinians children being killed. It really is very unbalanced reporting because sadly we still live in an anti-semitic world.

I must oppose your view that it is anti-semetic just because he disagrees with the actions (or percieved actions, im not getting into that arguement) a country. Israel is a country, a discreet entity. It is rediculous to call anyone who opposes the choices and actions of a country a racist. I could just as easily call you anti-arab because you deplore the practices in palastine. Anyway, to close, come up with a stronger argument than calling him a racist (which he clearly is not), because it simply does not hold water.

[John_Ventureville]

knite wrote:
I must oppose your view that it is anti-semitic just because he disagrees with the actions (or percieved actions, im not getting into that argument) a country.
>

I totally agree. It is just too easy to unfairly label someone (and calling someone anti-semitic is an *EXTREMELY* serious charge, never to be done lightly), rather than step back and carefully examine things.

Israel is caught between "a rock and a hard place" due to the violently stubborn & contrary nature of their opponents and the economic inter-dependence involved. Imagine if the Mexicans who do so much cheap labor in the American Southwest, were also hellbent on destroying the United States through constant assassinations and bombings. Now think what it would be like if the U.S. gov't kept on letting them in to provide cheap labor.

The Israeli people are so frustrated themselves by the never-ending violence that they sometimes say "we really should have chosen Africa!" This is because they had been given the choice of starting a new nation in the Middle East or on the African coast. But they chose to stick with tradition! Oh, well.

The United States government and general public are true friends to the state of Israel. We have given them billions in aid and the world knows that to mess with this little nation is to mess almost directly with us. And we have stood by Israel even when they do very uncool things like spy on us (their friend...) or try to sell advanced military technologies to our enemies. But I will say that Israeli political and military leaders have written into their very memetic DNA the words "never again" and they feel if they don't utterly look out for #1 that they may risk the destruction of their very nation and people. Israel still lives in an extremely unfriendly neighborhood.

As for the U.S. media showing the Palestinian side of the conflict on occasion, I think that is only right. I totally agree that Israel has a right to defend itself but when some Israeli Air Force pilots start refusing to do bombing runs on Palestinian neighborhoods... Well, that shows there is a problem which needs to be addressed. But I would still generally grant the far superior moral high ground to the state and people of Israel.

John Grigg

[xanadu]

I must oppose your view that it is anti-semetic just because he disagrees with the actions (or percieved actions, im not getting into that arguement) a country. Israel is a country, a discreet entity. It is rediculous to call anyone who opposes the choices and actions of a country a racist. I could just as easily call you anti-arab because you deplore the practices in palastine. Anyway, to close, come up with a stronger argument than calling him a racist (which he clearly is not), because it simply does not hold water.

Very true and well said, thank you. It would seem that there must be a few in all of imminst who are able to think logically and do not go along with the herd. I had begun to doubt there was even one. Obviously there is a huge difference between opposing the actions of a country and opposing a religion. Wonder is unable or unwilling to see the difference.

  Israel is caught between "a rock and a hard place" due to the violently stubborn & contrary nature of their opponents and the economic inter-dependence involved. Imagine if the Mexicans who do so much cheap labor in the American Southwest, were also hellbent on destroying the United States through constant assassinations and bombings.

That would be a fair comparison if the USA was engaged in ongoing killings in Mexico, if they dropped bombs at will, did false imprisonment, occupied stolen land and so on. The USA is not doing those things but Israel is. That is the difference. However, I will say that under Bush, the difference between the two countries is blurring and we are turning into a monster as well.

Wonder, you claimed that my facts were incorrect but you can not seem to provide any facts or proof to dispute what I've said before or said here. You are the antisemite. Arabs and palestinians are semitic peoples too and you are clearly prejudiced against them.

In another thread you claimed to be concerned about the well being of children. As long as they are not arab children, I take it. Your only complaint about the murder and oppression done by Israel against palestinian children is the fact that the media occasionally reports on it. You want the reporting stopped, not the killing stopped. You are an antisemite.

[Mind]

occupied stolen land

You keep repeating this Palestinian propoganda gem xanadu. You must be aware of the history of the region. The land has changed hands dozens or even hundreds of times since humans first settled there. What makes the last land grab (more of a defensive move, really, against a arab army amassing to destroy Israel), so much more egregious than all the other movements and settlements in the region over the last few thousand years? Why do you call this "stolen land"? Every country in the world was stolen land at one time or another. Most other regions of the world have made peace and settled on borders and no one cries about "stolen land". It just seems like propaganda to me. It doesn't seem to be helping anything out.

The violence has been going both ways pretty regular now for a few decades. Why do you give the radical Palestinians a pass and ignore their violent ways and indoctrination of youth into hatred, but slam the Israelis? The way you post about the issue makes it seem like you can't see both sides.

[xanadu]

The land has changed hands dozens or even hundreds of times since humans first settled there. What makes the last land grab (more of a defensive move, really, against a arab army amassing to destroy Israel), so much more egregious than all the other movements and settlements in the region over the last few thousand years?

So your argument is that land theft has gone on throughout history and is therefore traditional. So what is so bad about this land theft? Is that about the size of it? Well hell, murder has gone on throughout history, rape, robbery and so on. Are we to wink at those things too? Is there any crime that you would condemn no matter who did it, even a jew?

And what is "defensive" about a preemptive land grab? Their statement that the arabs were planning to destroy them is just stock boilerplate israeli bullsh-t. They have committed horrible crimes from the beginning all the while crying about being the victims. They "have no choice" but to steal land, oppress the rightful owners, kill them if they protest and so on. The land grab of '67 which you defend also involved a treacherous attack against the USA. Yes, bring on the history, I do not shrink from it a bit. What I say is based on history and fact.

[John_Ventureville]

QUOTE (mind)
The land has changed hands dozens or even hundreds of times since humans first settled there. What makes the last land grab (more of a defensive move, really, against a arab army amassing to destroy Israel), so much more egregious than all the other movements and settlements in the region over the last few thousand years?
>

Xanadu wrote:
So your argument is that land theft has gone on throughout history and is therefore traditional. So what is so bad about this land theft? Is that about the size of it? Well hell, murder has gone on throughout history, rape, robbery and so on. Are we to wink at those things too? Is there any crime that you would condemn no matter who did it, even a jew?
>

Ouch! Xanadu, you need to realize there are many Israeli/Jewish grassroots organizations within Israel which would heartily agree that their government has done some really bad things and that change for the better must occur. Now in the Arab nations do we see counterparts to these Israeli organizations? Don't hold your breath...

Please remember that all of Israel is a tiny strip of land and the possibility of being driven into the sea is a scary thought in the Israeli mind and so they needed expanded buffer zones. They do not have a huge continent protected by vast oceans on either side like the United States. When it comes to past Israeli/Arab wars, keep in mind that each time around the Arabs would have wiped out Israel from the face of the earth had they the military power to do so. You are totally deceived to believe otherwise.

Xanadu wrote:
Their statement that the arabs were planning to destroy them is just stock boilerplate israeli bullsh-t.
>

This statement of yours is 100% false.

I'm not going to say the Israeli gov't & people are without blame (they sure are not) but just imagine what the Arabs would have done to them if the balance of power were reversed. I can guarantee there would currently be no state of Israel in the Middle East! lol It has been a combination of U.S. aid and Jewish identity/organizational power, which have almost miraculously held back an Arab alliance of nations hellbent on crushing this tiny but tough as nails little nation (Israel must rank up there with ancient Sparta in terms of having troops which can defeat all comers). Current and future historians will shake their heads in wonder at the shocking military incompetance of Israel's enemies. Despite massive Soviet aid and training and a vastly outnumbered enemy, they still could not defeat Israel.

Xanadu wrote:
And what is "defensive" about a preemptive land grab? Their statement that the arabs were planning to destroy them is just stock boilerplate israeli bullsh-t. They have committed horrible crimes from the beginning all the while crying about being the victims. They "have no choice" but to steal land, oppress the rightful owners, kill them if they protest and so on. The land grab of '67 which you defend also involved a treacherous attack against the USA. Yes, bring on the history, I do not shrink from it a bit. What I say is based on history and fact.
>

The attack against an American spy ship Liberty was indeed very tragic. But at least some critics contend it happened because we did not "declare" the ship one of ours (it was a spy ship, lol) despite Israel asking for a list of our ships anywhere in "the neighborhood." Arab nations liked to disguise their vessels with foreign markings and so Israel was very suspicious. I believe things got out of hand due to a series of unplanned unfortunate events and not some evil conspiracy against the United States.

Initially Israeli planes did close flyby's (the Liberty was flying the U.S. flag & marked as American) and then only later did Israeli aircraft do machine gun and napalm strafing runs. This sounds bad (and is...) but this is much more to suppress ship deck activity for shooting down planes (manning machine guns, etc.) rather than to sink a ship. The steel structure of a ship can stand up to such treatment. It was only later when several Israeli torpedo boats approached to try to figure out what was what that the American commander opened fire on them (he felt they moved aggressively toward him in battle formation) and they responded with torpedo attacks which killed several dozen Americans. When Israel realized what had happened they immediately contacted Washington in an attempt to repair things.

Some people say the whole thing was deliberately plotted by Israel but I think at the very worst (if this is true) that the initial attack (again machine gun fire and napalm is to suppress deck activity and not sink a ship) was more of a slap to teach the U.S. a lesson about being secretive and not being open and honest with Israel in regard to having our spy ships in their neck of the woods during a war. But then things got out of hand when a worried U.S. commander ordered his gunners to open fire on initially non-hostile Israeli torpedo boats coming to visit him. A former CIA director and a number of other very senior U.S. military and intelligence officials have stated they felt Israel had not been entirely truthful as to what really caused the attack. But they could be wrong in this assumption and hurt pride could be a major reason for this attitude.

Israeli officials hold that their pilots and sailors were just very tired & jittery and that the natural "fog of war" combined with the Americans not disclosing it was their spy ship, caused the tragedy. Ironically the story goes that Israeli leadership was horrified at the initial news of the attack because they thought their forces had attacked a *Soviet spy ship* and so they might have given provocation to Russia for direct military involvement!

A strange twist on things is that U.S. navy fleet forces were contacted but twice in a row carrier fighters were ordered back from missions to support the Liberty. In a cold blooded way this makes sense because having our planes dogfighting against an ally would have created a humiliating schism for all the world to see. This was supposedly the view of President Johnson who ordered the second mission scrubbed.

What I find disturbing is that in the later Pueblo Incident (American spy ship captured by the North Koreans), once again help was begged for by the attacked ship but even though U.S. fleet was successfully contacted, help never came. I can understand this in the Liberty incident but not for the Pueblo. Supposedly no one in the Navy or the presidential administration wanted to risk a second Korean war and so the Pueblo was sacrificed. Ironically the loss of life for the Pueblo Incident was much less but then the North Koreans and their Soviet masters wanted to get their hands on the spy tech & records on board the American vessel and so they had to restrain themselves.

I have a very hard time ever seeing real peace between Israel and their Arab neighbors. Perhaps in the 22nd century we can use super-advanced nanotech macro-engineering to move the entire nation of Israel to a nice quiet spot right off the coast of Southern California. The Israeli's can then worry about being invaded by hordes of partying American Spring Break college students! : )

John Grigg

P.S. I sure hope those wacky Dagon worshipers, the Phillistines, don't suddenly show up and then say *they* want Palestine back! Let's see..., the Phillistines were supposedly of early Greek era ancestry and so I guess that means we should let the politicians in Athens have a say in current Middle East politics! And of course we will have to cut out a strip of land for them...

[Mind]

oh there are plenty of counterparts

Perhaps you could list some. It would be helpful if you could point to some arab-organization websites that condemn the radical Islamist call for genocide against Jews. We could see for ourselves.