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Trying to "repair" brain after drug use


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#31 Jeoshua

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 12:11 AM

St John's Wort wouldn't necessarily quickly upregulate the receptors, and I would never recommend SSRIs to someone. I think the best course would be to make sure that you are giving yourself enough precursors (Tryptophan, Vitamins C and B Complex), and stay away from anything that upsets the balance. Dopamine might also be off, as could Acetylcholine. The relationships between neurotransmitters can be complicated, and I am not sure if I understand them well enough to say what pharmaceutical intervention would be most appropriate. I do know that if you went to a standard medical doctor and asked him about Serotonin, he would immediately prescribe an SSRI, which is their first answer for just about everything.
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#32 Plasticperson

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 05:27 AM

The more you worry about the proposed brain damage the more real it will appear to be... Don't worry MDMA didn't do anything to you after 2 times. Don't feel like pulling up the study but damage wasn't noticeable to monkeys unless dosages were high and repeated. Essentially, ur brain has enough preventative ability(i.e. antioxidants) to protect against single use. If you ever do decide to take MDMA again pre dosing with antioxidants will induce a prophylactic effect. Lastly, if ur truly worried, the best way fix brain damage is with exercise because of the neurotropic effect... Antioxidants will only produce a favorable environment to help with brain damage but offer little to no neurotropic effect. 

 

But seriously don't stress it.. ur gf was probably trying to guilt trip u lol. 

 


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#33 lammas2

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 06:10 PM

I would never recommend SSRIs to someone.

 

Generally a good idea. But...

 

 

High doses of MDMA have a two-phase effect on serotonergic functioning, first causing acute decreases, then partial recovery, then chronic decreases. For example, after a single dose of 10 mg/kg MDMA to a rat, release of 5-HT leads to depletion of tissue levels of 5-HT and its metabolite 5-HIAA within 3 hours of dosing (Schmidt 1987; Stone, 1987b). Approximately 6 hours later, levels begin to return to normal, but this recovery is not sustained. About 24 hours after dosing, 5-HT levels begin a second, sustained decrease and remain significantly lower than baseline 2 weeks later. This sustained decrease is thought to be associated with axonal damage.

The intracellular enzyme TPH follows a similar time course, with decreased activity occurring within 15 minutes of drug administration. However, there is less short-term recovery of TPH activity in comparison to 5-HT. The recovery of TPH activity appears to involve regeneration of enzyme that was inactivated by oxidation rather than synthesis of new enzyme. SERT functioning is also altered. When rats were given 15 mg/kg subcutaneous MDMA and sacrificed an hour later, the uptake of serotonin was decreased by 80% (Fleckenstein, 1999). It should be noted that significant acute 5-HT depletions are not necessarily produced by all active doses of MDMA. Schmidt (1986) reported that 2.5 mg/kg MDMA did not produce an acute decrease in 5-HT or 5HIAA in Sprague Dawley rats at 3 hours after injection. Of note, Kish (2000) did find striatal 5-HT depletions in a chronic ecstasy user who died shortly after ecstasy ingestion. This suggests that at least some of the doses administered by humans are sufficient to produce 5-HT depletions.

The above description focuses on serotonergic changes because these are used to measure toxicity. Many other acute neurochemical changes occur after MDMA exposure. For example, dopamine is released (Stone, 1986) and dopamine transporter reuptake activity is decreased within 1 hr of high dose MDMA (Fleckenstein, 1999; Metzger, 1998). MDMA can also acutely increase dopamine synthesis (Nash, 1990). As noted previously, mice are selectively vulnerable to MDMA-induced dopaminergic neurotoxicity (Logan, 1988; Miller,1994; Stone, 1987a). In some studies, long-term alterations in dopaminergic functioning have been seen in other species (e.g., rats in Commins, 1987).

The time course of damaging events in rats can be seen by administering SSRIs, such as fluoxetine and citalopram, after MDMA. Pretreatment with fluoxetine (Prozac) or citalopram (Celexa) has been shown to block the neurotoxicity of MDMA (Battaglia, 1988; Schmidt 1987; 1990; Shankaran, 1999a), probably by blocking interactions of MDMA with SERT. More interestingly, fluoxetine remains almost fully protective if given 3 or 4 hours after MDMA. By 4 hours, most of the MDMA-induced release of 5-HT and DA has already occurred (Gough, 1991; Hiramatsu, 1990) and increases in extracellular free radicals (Colado, 1997b; Shankaran, 1999a) and lipid peroxidation (the alteration of fat molecules by free radicals) (Colado, 1997a) can be measured. Nevertheless, the administration of fluoxetine at this point decreases subsequent extracellular oxidative stress (Shankaran, 1999a) and long-term 5-HT depletions (Schmidt, 1987; Shankaran, 1999a). Fluoxetine will still be partially protective if given 6 hours after MDMA but has no protective effect 12 hours after administration (Schmidt, 1987). This shows that neurotoxic MDMA regimens initiate a series of events that become increasingly damaging between 3 and 12 hours after drug administration in rats.

Slow recovery of serotonergic functioning can be seen following a neurotoxic dose of MDMA. The extent of recovery is different in different species. In rats, there is extensive recovery of indicators of serotonergic functioning 1 year after drug exposure (Battaglia, 1988; Lew, 1996; Sabol, 1996; Scanzello, 1993), although there is significant variation in recovery between individual animals (Fischer, 1995). In primates, some recovery of serotonergic function occurs but is less extensive than in the rat. Altered serotonergic axon density was still detectable 7 years after MDMA exposure in one study of squirrel monkeys (Hatzidimitriou, 1999). Therefore, despite some recovery, MDMA-induced serotonergic changes are likely permanent in this primate species. This apparent species difference may be partially related to the more severe initial serotonergic damage usually seen in primates compared to rats, but also likely indicates a species difference in regrowth of serotonergic axons.

 

Single dose of fluoxetine after MDMA use seems to prevent the damage. Don't take it beforehand.


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#34 Deep Thought

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 06:25 PM

The severity of MDMA neurotoxicity in humans has been questioned based on methodological flaws in the studies that were done on humans. The data from the animal studies cannot be extrapolated directly to humans and the drug was administered subcutaneously, intramuscular or intravascular in dosages that exceed 10mg/kg.

 

Why are you convinced that MDMA has damaged your brain?


Edited by Deep Thought, 10 May 2014 - 06:28 PM.


#35 gamesguru

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 07:02 PM

If it's a question of how severe the damage is, rather than a question of damage vs. safety, I think it's a drug best avoided. The day a neurotoxic drug is approved for the treatment of PTSD, that day marks a profound devolution in human intelligence.


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#36 Deep Thought

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 11:48 AM

If it's a question of how severe the damage is, rather than a question of damage vs. safety, I think it's a drug best avoided. The day a neurotoxic drug is approved for the treatment of PTSD, that day marks a profound devolution in human intelligence.

Do you think that one should avoid the drug entirely or that one should avoid abusing the drug?

 

The Dailymail and the Guardian are propaganda mills.

 

On a slightly different note, a study showed that MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for PTSD treatment has an astounding 83% success rate. And, equally important in addressing the apparent neurotoxicity - which may be real, but hasn't been conclusively shown yet, is the fact that none of the participants showed cognitive decline after treatment had ended.

 

http://mdmaptsd.org/



#37 gamesguru

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 12:04 PM

Either use it responsibly (<biannually and <100mg each time), or avoid the drug entirely. The evidence for its neurotoxicity (independent of any overheating or dehydration) is so compelling that to take to wittingly abuse the drug (as many people in our generation do), one must wish death upon their serotonergic neurons and decrements in their mental faculties. I'm speaking from experience too. I took 1.5 grams over 6 months and noticed memory impairments/worsened adhd (unprecedentedly forgetful, distractible, tangential, scattered,etc) and mood disturbances/irritibility (i don't remember crying over nothing or throwing such intense temper tantrums, even as a child) not attributable to anything else. Sure the studies are flawed, but that doesn't mean they're totally off base; what I've experienced and read of mdma, it's a very toxic drug.Take six-twelve months off the drug and you should feel almost 100% normal again. I'm also of the opinion that any drug with a human LD50 <10mg/kg is probably causing organ damage at 1mg/kg.


Edited by dasheenster, 11 May 2014 - 12:39 PM.


#38 OpaqueMind

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 08:51 PM

Check out my thread on neurofeedback, in which I document a similar experience to yourself, having massively distorted and damaged my neurology through extensive drug abuse, and now having reversed that process in what seems to be its entirety. I found nootropic/supplemental interventions minimally effective at best, highly disruptive at worst. NFB however has been nothing short of amazing.

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#39 gamesguru

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 12:25 AM

There are metabolites of MDMA which are neurotoxic and hepatotoxic, which accumulate in the brain more during hyperthermia, and for which the antidote is antioxidants (behind abstinence...prevention is better than cure, and better to be safe than sorry). Not sure how safe the idea of taking an SSRI concurrently is, in theory it leads to serotonin syndrome; a high antioxidant meal, cuppa juice or tea, and some supplements (vitamin c, ALA) are probably more helpful, from a harm reduction perspective.

 

The best estimate for neurotoxicity is something like 1.3 mg/kg; 85mg for a 65kg male. If you exceed this, you run this risk of long term serotonergic changes/disruption. More of a hard drug than soft; certainly safer than inhalants, but perhaps more damaging than meth or crack or alcohol.


Edited by dasheenster, 19 June 2014 - 12:28 AM.





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