44 replies to this topic

[Shepard]

FWIW, some of the cardiac issues with clenbuterol and the like are due to taurine depletion, if I remember correctly.

[krillin]

I've read that carnosine doesn't seem to get past the GI tract somehow. Always thought that taking carnosine isn't the most effective way to increase muscle carnosine levels.

Carnosine survives digestion. The reason I was taking it instead of beta alanine was to provide the GI tract with protection against copper-catalyzed free radical damage. But for some reason it never occurred to me that binding to copper would also increase absorption.

J Agric Food Chem. 2005 Jun 15;53(12):4736-9.
Quantitation of carnosine in humans plasma after dietary consumption of beef.
Park YJ, Volpe SL, Decker EA.
Department of Food Science, Chenoweth Lab, University of Massachusetts, Amherst, Massachusetts 01003, USA.

Carnosine (beta-alanyl-L-histidine) is a dipeptide found in the muscle foods that has been postulated to be a bioactive food component. The objective of this research was to determine the concentration of carnosine in human plasma after ingestion of beef. Nine males and nine females were recruited for the study. Food devoid of meat products was given to the subjects so that they did not consume carnosine for 48 h prior to the test. Subjects fasted for 12 h and then had blood withdrawn prior to a meal containing 200 g of ground beef. Additional blood samples were collected over the following 24 h and carnosine concentrations were determined by HPLC. The cooked ground beef used in the study contained 52% water, 24% protein, 22% fat, and 124 mg of carnosine/100 g of beef. No plasma carnosine was detected in subjects before the consumption of the beef. Carnosine was detected in plasma 15 min after beef consumption. Plasma carnosine concentrations continued to increase with a maximum (32.7 mg of carnosine/L of plasma) being recorded 2.5 h after consumption. Carnosine concentrations then decreased until no carnosine could be detected at 5.5 h postconsumption. These results indicate that dietary carnosine is absorbed into human plasma after the consumption of beef. Since carnosine has several potential health benefits, evidence of its bioavailability suggests that it could be a bioactive food component.

PMID: 15941308

[ilanso]

For what it's worth, I have had blood tests done after using L-Carnosine at 500 mg a day most days for the past few years along with other supplements like the full strength LEF mix which contains both Zinc and Copper. I had my blood tests taken after like 8-9 days without taking any supplements though...

Results:
Taurine 119 (reference interval 50-100 micro mol/L) - FWIW, I had a can of sardines which i believe contain large amounts of Taurine like once a day for probably the 5 days before the test. I didn't eat anything on the morning of the blood tests.

Zinc 17 (reference interval 10-18 micro mol/L)
Copper 13.9 (reference interval 12-22 micro mol/L)

For several years of 1/2g, these results are comforting. Was the Carnosine source reliable?

[edward]

For what it's worth, I have had blood tests done after using L-Carnosine at 500 mg a day most days for the past few years along with other supplements like the full strength LEF mix which contains both Zinc and Copper. I had my blood tests taken after like 8-9 days without taking any supplements though...

Results:
Taurine 119 (reference interval 50-100 micro mol/L) - FWIW, I had a can of sardines which i believe contain large amounts of Taurine like once a day for probably the 5 days before the test. I didn't eat anything on the morning of the blood tests.

Zinc 17 (reference interval 10-18 micro mol/L)
Copper 13.9 (reference interval 12-22 micro mol/L)

For several years of 1/2g, these results are comforting. Was the Carnosine source reliable?

But as someone pointed out those were blood levels, if beta-alanine/carnosine is inhibiting the transport of Taurine across the BBB then blood levels might well be high but none if it is getting to the brain where personally I would want it.

As far as copper, well again plasma levels don't always reflect tissue levels, there could be a lot of copper stored away that doesnt reflect the normal plasma levels.

[zoolander]

A study published in 2004found that histidine had a greater ability to prevent crosslinking when compared to carnosine (1)

If people are taking 500-1000mg Carnosine then what are people taking with histidine? based on the science

Edited by zoolander, 13 May 2008 - 06:32 AM.

[edward]

A study published in 2004found that histidine's was had a great ability to prevent crosslinking when compared to carnosine (1)

If people are taking 500-1000mg Carnosine then what are people taking with histidine? based on the science

Thanks for that study

[graatch]

Yeah, I became less enthused about carnosine after I found out about alanine's relationship to taurine.

Alanine is going to reduce magnesium levels as well. Not good.

I don't think this means, at the doses people are supplementing -- instant brain damage -- but it does probably mean an enhanced susceptibility to oxidative stress and excitotoxicity from NMDA subtype glutamate/CA++ for a time.

[graatch]

For what it's worth, I have had blood tests done after using L-Carnosine at 500 mg a day most days for the past few years along with other supplements like the full strength LEF mix which contains both Zinc and Copper. I had my blood tests taken after like 8-9 days without taking any supplements though...

Results:
Taurine 119 (reference interval 50-100 micro mol/L) - FWIW, I had a can of sardines which i believe contain large amounts of Taurine like once a day for probably the 5 days before the test. I didn't eat anything on the morning of the blood tests.

Zinc 17 (reference interval 10-18 micro mol/L)
Copper 13.9 (reference interval 12-22 micro mol/L)

Those copper levels are comforting. FWIW though, as liorrh noted blood taurine may very well be increased, because what alanine is doing is interfering with its transport into the brain -- where it acts as a very important neuroprotectant.

[Jacovis]

Yea I took (and am still taking) mainly 500 mg in 2 or 3 divded doses throughout the day of the Source Naturals and KAL brands (broke the pills into pieces) of Carnosine.

I am not particularly worried though. I mean Carnosine is present in virtually supplement strength amounts in people who eat meats, and not just 'unhealthy' red meats but in healthier options like organic lean Chicken breast. For example below is some news item on Black Chicken from China which is said to contain twice as much Carnosine as the regular type (no proof though could very well be spin). This food source is said to have a healthy reputation in China (other sites say this as well but couldn't find a study). Also it might not be to do with its Carnosine content who knows...

I know that a lot of people who hit the gym regularly eat chicken breast several times a day as an alternative source of quality protein aside from Whey. Unless there is something in chicken that 'undos' the negative effect of its Carnosine content, people regularly eating lots of organic lean chicken breast are also in theory harming themselves...


http://www.emaxhealt...m/74/12982.html

Chinese black chicken for a healthier life

New healthy food is coming from China: Black Chicken.

Black chicken was unveiled as a new form of "super-food" yesterday, after researchers found that the traditional ingredient in Chinese medicine has high levels of a natural anti-oxidant.

Black-bone silky fowl, which have black skin, meat and bones but snow-white feathers, have been used as a "folk invigorant" in China for 1,000 years. Now Chinese food scientists have confirmed they contain high levels of a substance called carnosine. This is a powerful anti-oxidant and is taken in supplement form in the West to improve muscle strength and alleviate the effects of ageing, autism and diabetes.

Chicken is known as a source of carnosine, but it was found that black-bone silky fowl had twice as much of the substance as ordinary breeds.

[graatch]

I know that a lot of people who hit the gym regularly eat chicken breast several times a day as an alternative source of quality protein aside from Whey. Unless there is something in chicken that 'undos' the negative effect of its Carnosine content, people regularly eating lots of organic lean chicken breast are also in theory harming themselves...

Well, other amino acids. Which tend to interfere with/limit uptake into the brain of the others, right? If this is so, the uptake of carnosine digested with a range of other protein may not be truly comparable to the much larger dose you would get from a carnosine supplement taken in between meals.

[edward]

I know that a lot of people who hit the gym regularly eat chicken breast several times a day as an alternative source of quality protein aside from Whey. Unless there is something in chicken that 'undos' the negative effect of its Carnosine content, people regularly eating lots of organic lean chicken breast are also in theory harming themselves...

Well, other amino acids. Which tend to interfere with/limit uptake into the brain of the others, right? If this is so, the uptake of carnosine digested with a range of other protein may not be truly comparable to the much larger dose you would get from a carnosine supplement taken in between meals.

The human body requires lots of complete protein, we evolved to in my opinion eat large amounts of meat (meat is not what it used to be, compare game meat to supermarket fattened cows), if there was any harm carnosine etc. in eating large amounts of multiple amino acids then those susceptible individuals would have long ago got tossed out of the gene pool.

I think Graatch is right, the ingestion of complete proteins will probably limit any damage from individual amino's.

[stephen_b]

I have a question. What are the downsides to cutting out carnosine suppmentation, providing one was supplementing ALA, ALCAR, and benfotiamine?

Stephen

[niner]

I have a question. What are the downsides to cutting out carnosine suppmentation, providing one was supplementing ALA, ALCAR, and benfotiamine?

Well, your anti-glycation strategy would be somewhat less good. Exactly how much, I don't know. Also, with a little extra money in your pocket, you might go out and spend it on cheap hookers, and get the clap.

[graatch]

hahahahaha:)

Edited by graatch, 17 May 2008 - 11:32 AM.