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Ron Paul


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#61 DJS

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Posted 17 July 2007 - 08:59 PM

BTW, we could go off on crazy tangents with this type of analysis. For example, allowing transfats in consumer goods increases the frequency of health problems, which increases health care costs, which leads to me being taxed more, which decrease my personal wealth and ability to act freely. Of course, the same rather tenuous argument could be used for all life style choices that society deems suboptimal. However, in most of these other cases the subsequent reductions in freedom are higher. Thus the cost/benefit gets skewed differently.

#62 Brainbox

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Posted 17 July 2007 - 09:21 PM

Hmm, aren't trans-fats mostly used in prefabricated meals, to reduce costs? But still this prefabricated stuff is more expensive than home brew meals. So this is complicated. Eating prefabricated meals to win 10 min's of freedom time for about 4 or 5 bucks extra cost. Add to that the cost of a micro wave oven that is needed to heat the trans fats so that you can eat them. Add to that the increased health insurance or tax. That seems a high level of investment for 10min's extra time a day. So on an individual level it might come out negative, freedom-wise.
But at a macro level, this enhanced economic activity adds to the financial freedom of other individuals.

Hmm, these trans fats must have been a socialist invention, political intervention is everywhere [lol]

I hate trans fats.

#63 eternaltraveler

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Posted 17 July 2007 - 10:10 PM

As far as I can tell there is no noticeable difference in taste between foods with transfat and their healthier counterparts. Generally I tend to side with the principle of *individual freedom*, but when the cost/benefit is heavily skewed and there is virtually no tangible reduction in freedom then I'll opt for the choice which most benefits the "greater good"


Now that the negative health effects are becoming crystal clear companies that traditionally used trans fats are dropping them right and left. They don't want to get sued out of existence.

There is no need for a trans fat ban. It's banning itself.

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#64 Live Forever

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Posted 17 July 2007 - 10:42 PM

Now that the negative health effects are becoming crystal clear companies that traditionally used trans fats are dropping them right and left.  They don't want to get sued out of existence.

There is no need for a trans fat ban.  It's banning itself.

Exactly. The free market can take care of it much more efficiently than the government while still preserving everyone's freedom. Same thing with smoking in restaurants (which they recently banned in my hometown). If a restaurant is too smoky, and enough people who don't want to smell the smoke don't go there, the restaurant will lose money. Of course the reverse is also true; If a lot of people want to smoke while they eat, then they won't frequent places that don't allow smoking. No need to legislate away people's freedoms; The market can take care of what people want far more efficiently than government interventions. (there I go being a crazy libertarian again)

#65 DJS

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Posted 17 July 2007 - 10:48 PM

Now that the negative health effects are becoming crystal clear companies that traditionally used trans fats are dropping them right and left.  They don't want to get sued out of existence.

There is no need for a trans fat ban.  It's banning itself.


Heh, and to think that all of the class action suits that we take for granted today are thanks to good ol' Nader. But I see your point Elrond, government power is generally only a good thing if it empowers the individual. And from a Libertarian perspective, issuing a ban to "protect" the public from something that would correct itself anyway could be seen as an excuse for an over extension of power. Good retort, I hadn't anticipated that angle. Although still, from my perspective the ban on transfats doesn't really ruffle my feathers all that much.

#66 DJS

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Posted 17 July 2007 - 11:00 PM

If a lot of people want to smoke while they eat, then they won't frequent places that don't allow smoking. No need to legislate away people's freedoms; The market can take care of what people want far more efficiently than government interventions. (there I go being a crazy libertarian again)


To switch the subject slightly, more than unrestricted social freedom (which I am in basic agreement with you guys on) my issue is with economic inequality that arises naturally in a capitalistic society, and which I do not believe is adequately addressed by Libertarianism. If one's financial position determines one's "range of freedom", then obviously some individuals are born more free than others. This type of injustice is something I believe society should try to minimize (whereas Libertarians usually try to sweep this nasty little fact under the rug because addressing it requires a more moderate stance in relation to their ideal).

#67 Brainbox

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Posted 17 July 2007 - 11:05 PM

It's the US sueing culture that makes a big difference here. I most of the time think of it as a way to get excessive refunds after slipping on wet floors, but evidently it has some huge macro level advantages as well.
We do not have that to a comparable extend in Europe.
Over here, private corporations, by applying sub standard procedures and ingredients, almost need to be stopped by governmental intervention. Hence giving a lot of room for socialist viewpoints. Hence my ironic contribution above that lacks a certain correctness.... :)

I need to dive a bit more into the benefits of the sueing culture!

#68 Live Forever

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Posted 17 July 2007 - 11:46 PM

To switch the subject slightly, more than unrestricted social freedom (which I am in basic agreement with you guys on) my issue is with economic inequality that arises naturally in a capitalistic society, and which I do not believe is adequately addressed by Libertarianism. If one's financial position determines one's "range of freedom", then obviously some individuals are born more free than others. This type of injustice is something I believe society should try to minimize (whereas Libertarians usually try to sweep this nasty little fact under the rug because addressing it requires a more moderate stance in relation to their ideal).


First off, there is a difference between "Libertarians" and "libertarians". (perhaps a minor bone of contention, but some people I know get heated about that, haha, even though I have been known to do it myself from time to time)

Secondly, as far as freedoms go, there is always a tradeoff. If you ban trans fats, or smoking in restaurants, or the ability to purchase guns, or gambling, or whatever else, you may very well be protecting someone from themselves and giving someone who is poor more utility (if they agree with the ban of course) than if it was a free market system. The point still remains that you are banning an activity, though and although you are increasing the influence for a certain amount of people that might have been under represented in a free market system, it is not as efficient of a system as the free market alternative. In other words, I can see the point that "voting with your dollars" might leave some people with more "votes" than others, but it is a far more efficient system than trying to figure out what the best policy is and then legislating it. Plus, in most instances it doesn't matter; 1) In the above smoking in restaurants example, if you don't have enough money to choose between two restaurants to eat in, one with smoking and one without, then it really doesn't matter to you whether there is smoking in there or not, 2) if you don't have enough money to spend on a hooker, it really doesn't matter to you if it is legal or not (laying aside "moral decline" arguments of course), etc. (you can see how this could be applied to lots of the arguments)

Basically, if I have to choose between 1) the government deciding for me which goods, services, and activities I can and can't do, and 2) people using their money in a free market system to decide which goods, services, and activities are offered, I will choose the latter in just about every instance I can think of.

#69 DJS

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 12:01 AM

Ummm, you're missing my point entirely. :) I'll try to explain myself better later tonight.

#70 Live Forever

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 12:51 AM

Ummm, you're missing my point entirely.  :)  I'll try to explain myself better later tonight.

Lol, I apologize. I thought you were trying to get at financial means being a way to have more influence in a purely libertarian structure. (the "voting with your dollars" analogy that I mentioned) I am sorry for not understanding. Maybe if you can restate I can get my head around what you are getting at. ;))

#71 eternaltraveler

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 01:03 AM

He was talking about people doing nothing other than being born into wealth (or at least lack of poverty) giving them an unfair advantage over those who are brought up in less than ideal circumstances.

#72 Live Forever

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 01:16 AM

He was talking about people doing nothing other than being born into wealth (or at least lack of poverty) giving them an unfair advantage over those who are brought up in less than ideal circumstances.

Hmm. I thought that was what I addressed, lol.

There is a tradeoff in freedoms (rich people have more of a voice than poor) in a free market system, but that tradeoff (in my opinion at least) is not anywhere on the same level as the restrictions in freedoms that come from government restricting the rights of others. The last couple of examples I gave showed that for all intensive purposes, for a lot of the things, it doesn't matter anyway, (if you are too poor to afford to eat at a restaurant, you don't care if it has smoking or not) Basically, a free market system is much more effective at determining what people "actually" want, than a government entity, as well as being able to change much more quickly as will changes. Rich or poor makes no difference for that fact.

I could go on at more length, but assuming that elrond is correct, then I must have been unclear in my previous response, because that was what I was responding to. (the whole "voting with your dollars" argument where those with more dollars have more votes)

#73 DJS

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 01:31 AM

if you are too poor to afford to eat at a restaurant, you don't care if it has smoking or not


Wow Nate, just, wow.

Well, riddle me this, if you are too poor to eat at a restaurant, then what issue do you think you'd really really care about? [glasses]

#74 DJS

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 01:36 AM

I'll answer that for you -- The fact that you're some poor bastard who doesn't possess the requisite level of freedom to go eat at a restaurant!

Think about what you mean by the term *freedom*.

#75 Live Forever

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 02:10 AM

I wasn't saying they shouldn't be fed. Good lord, don't turn me into a monster, Don.

You were the one that made the point about taking the freedom to make decisions being more in the hands of someone who has money and less in the hands of someone who doesn't. I was trying to make the point that for each decision you were referring to (ok, not all of them, but a large percentage of them) it doesn't matter. If you have the money to eat at a restaurant, you have the power to vote with your money which restaurant to eat at. If you have the money to spend on a hooker, you decide (assuming if it was legal) whether to spend your money on it. (same goes with drugs, or gambling, or anything else we are talking about here) My point (not the only one I raised by the way) was just to show that your point was incorrect, not that we shouldn't care for less fortunate people.

Whether or not to put money into social programs which help poor people is a totally seperate argument in my opinion than whether we should restrict the freedoms of people by limiting whether they have access to certain goods and services.

#76 DJS

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 02:25 AM

Nate, notice my transition:

To switch the subject slightly, more than unrestricted social freedom (which I am in basic agreement with you guys on) my issue is with economic inequality that arises naturally in a capitalistic society, and which I do not believe is adequately addressed by Libertarianism.


I believe that the *American Dream Meme* produces a great deal of (what I perceive as) Libertarians bias (what does the uncapitalized variant mean?). Let's be honest, you don't see many Libertarians coming out of Compton.

BTW, I view *economic freedom* and *political freedom* as two fairly distinct concepts.

#77 DJS

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 02:32 AM

Whether or not to put money into social programs


But funding social programs requires the government to acquire said funding, and to do this the government must taxes individuals...and in doing this the government, to some degree, deprives its taxed citizens of their *economic freedom*.

#78 Live Forever

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 03:21 AM

Ok, well we are obviously talking past each other at this point, haha. I thought I clearly answered why the rich vs poor dynamic doesn't matter when it comes to the choice to take away someone's right to do something, which seems to be what you keep saying, but perhaps not. :))

I believe that the *American Dream Meme* produces a great deal of (what I perceive as) Libertarians bias (what does the uncapitalized variant mean?). Let's be honest, you don't see many Libertarians coming out of Compton.

BTW, I view *economic freedom* and *political freedom* as two fairly distinct concepts.

I think that you do see a lot of libertarians coming out of everywhere. You think that people coming out of Compton do not want to have the freedom to gamble or anything else we have been discussing? (or, on the economic side, would rather live in a more state controlled system with less free trade allowed?) Now I am not saying each and every person is on the libertarian side of things (some people in this thread prove that some people want things more socialistic instead) or even whether they call themselves libertarians or not, but the trend for most people in the country is towards a more socially liberal (free to choose) and fiscally conservative (free trade; less government), at least in all the polls I have seen. There are a variety of historical reasons for this which I could go into but I don't believe many people are interested in hearing it, haha.

Oh, and capital L means part of the Libertarian Party, while little l means just a libertarian. Some people go out of their way to refer to themselves as a "small-l libertarian" whenever they say the word just for clarification. (or are sure to capitalize it if they want to mean the Libertarian Party)
http://en.wikipedia...._libertarianism

But funding social programs requires the government to acquire said funding, and to do this the government must taxes individuals...and in doing this the government, to some degree, deprives its taxed citizens of their *economic freedom*.

True. I am also for as low of taxes as we can manage, and as small of a government as we can get away with. I was just saying that issue (of taxation/expenditure) is separate from the points being argued whether to ban things like gambling, trans fats, guns, prostitution, drugs, etc. etc.

Sure, everything eventually affects everything else, if you trickle down far enough or make enough links, but we are talking about the primary things here, not something several steps removed. You even so much as said such overanalysis is pretty crazy:

BTW, we could go off on crazy tangents with this type of analysis. For example, allowing transfats in consumer goods increases the frequency of health problems, which increases health care costs, which leads to me being taxed more, which decrease my personal wealth and ability to act freely.


Indeed, you can string together any set of things like that and relate any 2 things to each other. (The freedom to use marijuana leads me to be more of a slacker which leads me to get on welfare which leads me to leech of the system more/raise everyones taxes) You could do this analysis with absolutely any freedom you want (the freedom to have extreme life extension even!). The point is that, primarily, are you hurting anyone else with your action? If not, then I think that thing should be legal, and the government shouldn't ban it.

#79 DJS

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 03:58 AM

Nate, I agree that we have been largely talking past each other.

As a social progressive I am more or less in line with the (L)ibertarian social platform. Where I beg to differ is on economics and social redistribution of wealth (think: education, health care, etc). The world isn't perfect and you play the cards you're dealt, whether you're sitting on pocket rockets or 7-2 off suit. Regardless of one's position there's no use in bitching about it, but when engaged in a conversation on sociology it's best to devest oneself of personal interests to remain as unbias as possible.

Again though, I think we were talking past each other...although conversations about the deficiencies of (l)ibertarianism and the (L)ibertarian platform are germaine to this thread IMO.

#80 Live Forever

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 04:05 AM

Well, I know your leanings, and I think we have both done enough to describe our two positions. (for anyone outside of us two that cares)

On the whole big L vs small l, I think some people specifically choose to dissociate from the "Libertarian Party" because of the mismanagement that has occurred in the past, as well as the very fact that someone is a libertarian kind of makes them wary of joining groups in the first place. (the "herding cats" analogy has been applied more than a few times)

In any event, I take it that you don't support Ron Paul, Don? I think he would probably be much more to your liking on social issues than most of the other Republican candidates.

#81 DJS

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 04:18 AM

Even thinking about voting makes me feel like I just soiled myself.

I am more or less a man without a party. There really isn't a major candidate (or party) out there that satisfactorily represents my views. The Green Party comes the closest, but then there's the fact that it has bioconservative leanings...

The chances of Ron Paul winning the Republican nomination are, as AA stated, highly unlikely. But out of all of the potential Republican candidates he is the most palatable IMO. With that said, I'll probably wind up voting Democrat (if I don't wind up placing a write-in vote for Bruce Klein :))).

#82 Live Forever

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 04:28 AM

Yeah, depending on who the nominee is, I will probably end up voting Democrat as well. (Interesting on the Green Party mention; I voted for Nadar who was the Green Party nominee in 2000.)

#83 lucid

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 04:57 AM

I am more or less a man without a party. There really isn't a major candidate (or party) out there that satisfactorily represents my views. The Green Party comes the closest, but then there's the fact that it has bioconservative leanings...

If Paul doesn't get the nomination, I will either:
A) Vote for the Libertarian candidate, I'm not voting for another Bush again. Period.
B) Vote Democrat just to be spiteful to the republican party for not nominating Paul.
The Republicans and Democrats are so similar they are almost impossible to tell the difference between. They are both Statists, veritable fountains of jingoism, and have all sold their souls to lies, spin, and special interest groups. They are really shameless. I want to vote against that system, so I probably wouldn't vote democrat. [thumb]

#84 lunarsolarpower

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 05:42 AM

OK, now that you two have gone over your personal viewpoints, I'll run mine by you. I happen to have a foot in the camp of the libertarians and another in the camp of the pragmatists. A single philosophy taken to extremes can't solve everything but neither can the government. I too agree that the insurmountable slope of starting with nothing is a downside to the pure libertarian system.

For someone who is truly born with major socioeconomic disadvantages, it won't merely be a matter of lacking the option of eating out regularly. Heck, I probably only got to eat out twice a year as a kid. These people will face possibly insurmountable disadvantages such as fetal alcohol syndrome, malnutrition (not necessarily a lack of calories, but an imbalance in nutrients), possibly abusive or absent parents and a lack of good role models. Just talking about this makes me wish they'd invent a way to make infertility the default. Then we could demand that prospective parents demonstrate adequate resources (psychological, financial, emotional, etc.) before turning on their reproductive ability. Unfortunately such technology is a ways down the road. Right now people are born all the time as a result of "accidents."

Now any constitutionalist worth his or her salt will tell you that "created equal" means created equal before the law. It doesn't mean everybody gets to start with the same stuff, genes and chances. In the real world such an idea is absurd. However there certainly is an innate sense of justice in each of us that can become more jaded as we age but resurfaces when discussing what an ideal society should look like.

I am a huge fan of the online book Manna by Marshall Brain and its depiction of how a capitalist society such as our own becomes destroyed by the end of human labor as the source of production of wealth. I don't doubt one bit that sooner or later we will reach the point where less than 50% of society will perform any labor of any commercial value as a result of improved automation (think autopilots better than humans, robotic semi-trucks and taxis, vending-machine style fast food joints, roombas that can do custodial duties for entire skyscrapers, etc.).

When you put this into the picture it becomes apparent that to have anything like what we consider a just society 100 years from now we had better begin thinking about some kind of Guaranteed Minimum Income (GMI) system. One way to achieve this is by a Negative Income Tax. While it certainly could be effective, the libertarian in me recoils at the thought of so directly taking money from productive members of society.

GMI

My alternative would be to set up an entity entirely separate from the government in charge of the GMI program. The government could provide it with its initial endowment. This could include all of the electromagnetic spectrum (excepting defense and emergency bandwidths) which could be leased to various carriers as an income stream. In addition I would support revising current copyright laws to make ALL copyright expire after a short period of time, say 3 years. If the rights holder wished to continue the privilege of monopoly granted by copyright past this, they would be required to provide perhaps 60% of the revenue earned to the GMI entity. Many other methods of generating revenue for this organization could be devised that would not require it to directly take money out of people's pockets. Ideally the GMI would be the only social program going except those dealing with wards of the court and the mentally ill as well as legacy obligations such as veterans. There would be no need for social security, medicare, medicaid, welfare, etc.

In Brain's story, the GMI entity was a collective that one joined by purchasing a share but I don't see that method working very well.

Dispersement:

We're all aware of the horrible ways people mismanage their money. Particularly that which they did not earn. To partially counter this, I have several stipulations for the method of dispersement of the funds. Each person would have to create an account and register it to receive their funds by something like direct deposit. Rather than depositing a monthly sum, the GMI would trickle funds into each account (similar to the way that gmail boxes expand). However one would have to manually sweep the funds from the GMI account where they were slowly accumulating into one's own personal bank account. If the GMI account had not been swept in 12 months, money deposited a year before would be removed and redistributed into the general fund. Laws would be passed forbidding lenders from loaning money against expected future earnings from the GMI to prevent people from using the windfall to make their situation worse.

I have not yet figured out exactly how to ensure people sign up for adequate health insurance coverage in this system. Hospitals probably wouldn't be subsidizing free emergency room visits since no one would have any excuse to be penniless. Obviously those who were judged incompetent to manage their own finances would need to have guardians appointed them.

Now Don, I want to know what you think about this and if you would support Ron Paul if his libertarianism was tied in with the creation of a sustainable GMI granting entity? Also Nate, could you live with this sytem and what do you think will happen if we don't do something about increasing automation?

#85 Aegist

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 07:35 AM

http://www.lewrockwe.../paul-arch.html

"Past articles by Congressman Ron Paul on LewRockwell.com"

#86 lucid

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Posted 27 July 2007 - 04:24 PM

A funny blurb from dailyreckoning.com:

Does Ron Paul have a chance to become the next U.S. President, we asked a savvy American friend from Washington?

    “No…of course not. If he starts becoming a threat to the establishment candidates, the media will tear him apart. Ron is a guy who thinks about things. He cares about the country and where it’s going. And he really believes in the constitution. You can’t get elected in America with those kinds of ideas. When they ask him a question, he gives an honest answer. That’s no way to get elected. The press won’t stand for it. And the voters, once they realise that Ron is sincere, will turn against him, too.

“Well, could he get close enough to the Republican nomination that he prods the party into taking a more traditional, conservative position?” we asked.

    “Maybe. Not likely…but maybe. The Republican Party has gone downhill badly since the days of Ronald Reagan. At least the Gipper had a vision of America. You know what John Locke wrote, ‘In the beginning, all the world was America’? He meant that America was meant to be free and open. Reagan, at least in the beginning, did believe that - ‘a city on a hill…a bright shining beacon of liberty.’

    “But now, the Republicans seem to be trying to outdo one another in stupidity. They want to keep foreigners out - especially if they’re poor. They want national ID cards…and Gestapo checkpoints…and a wall to keep people out. The way things are going, it won’t be long before that wall is used to keep people in.”

    “I’ve been in Washington for more than 40 years, so I’m a little cynical. I sure hope Ron Paul can make a strong enough showing to bring the Republicans back to their senses, and I’m going to give him money, because he’s an old friend and I want him to succeed. But I don’t know if I would count on it.”



#87 Andrew Shevchuk

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 04:51 AM

Coming from a Democrat, I must say that Ron Paul is definitely someone I'm considering voting for. Indeed, he's the only member of the Republican party I'd consider voting for (because he's not really a Republican now is he). I agree with a lot of the social aspects of the libertarian stance and some of the economic aspects, but there are various issues that I do take a more liberal view on too.




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