22 replies to this topic

[william7]

Experience ancient Rome, virtually

ROME - Computer experts on Monday unveiled a digital reproduction of ancient Rome as it appeared at the peak of its power in A.D. 320 — what they called the largest and most complete simulation of a historic city ever created.

http://news.yahoo.co..._virtual_rome_1

Can somebody explain to me how big a deal this is? I'm real interested in communal research and was wondering if computer scientists could create a simulation of a model kibbutz where a person using a computer could then tour it or learn to live in one online?

[Live Forever]

You can model anything you want.

In Second Life, people create all kinds of buildings and stuff, and if someone hasn't yet created something like what you describe, I would imagine it would only be a matter of time before they do so.

Now, the one in the article you linked to is much more advanced than what you are going to find in Second Life, or other virtual networking gaming things. It just depends on 1) How lifelike you want it to be, and 2) how much time and resources you are willing to spend on getting it accomplished.


Note: Search Google for "Create Virtual World" (or something similar) to find lots of different ways to build virtual environments and worlds.

[Brainbox]

The difference with a real one is that after you switch of your PC or look the other way you are at the place you really are. I mean isn't the benefit of a kibbutz achieved only when it becomes your "inescapable" environment? I.e. it needs 100% dedication from it's inhabitants?

[Live Forever]

I think elijah meant to set up one as an example to show people how it would be set up, but I am a bit confused as well if he meant to live in one online. Like a kibbutz game or something? That would be kind of weird.

[william7]

I think elijah meant to set up one as an example to show people how it would be set up, but I am a bit confused as well if he meant to live in one online. Like a kibbutz game or something? That would be kind of weird.

I was thinking of the example to show people how it would be set up as you say. I figure something like a virtual kibbutz could provide a unique learning experience and help a person choose whether or not to join a real live kibbutz.

Thanks a bunch for responding! I'm going to take a look at that link right now.

[Brainbox]

Ah, I understand. It would be difficult to emphasize the social aspect of kibbutz life this way I guess while this is, according to my limited knowledge, the key issue of a kibbutz?

[Lazarus Long]

Ironically I thought of something totally different and appropriate to other discussions here at Imminst when I originally read this article. You see I see the very existence of ID as proof of evolution in a kind of memetic contrarian sense.

It is the perspective of creationism *evolving* to meet challenges to the survival of the idea.

Nonetheless it brought to mind the idea of creating an RPG that modeled its principles in accord with the tenents of the Creationism Museum that just opened.

Why not put the ideas to the test?

The basic tenets of ID could be modeled and then tested against the challenge of both environmental change, human will, species competition and a determinist God that treats players as victims, inhabitants, protagonists, prophets and angels.

It may not be science but it could be profitable and informative of how basically weak the aspects of Creationism and Intelligent Design are to model reality. Nonetheless it might be entertaining and as I said profitable. People play out all kinds of fantasy games with rules so why not this concept?

I bet there are no proprietary rights over the propositiions of creationsim and ID even though I am sure there are groups that will howl, some with laughter and others with rage at the very idea of what I am proposing.

[Live Forever]

Does anyone else think that "kibbutz" is a funny sounding word, or is it just me?

[william7]

Does anyone else think that "kibbutz" is a funny sounding word, or is it just me?

Below is a definition of the word from Wikipedia.

A Kibbutz (Hebrew: ÷éáåõ, plural: Kibbutzim (Hebrew: ÷éáåöéí; "gathering" or "together") is an Israeli collective community. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz

No man is an island. We're all in this life together. Isn't this why we gather here at Imminst?

What's Lazarus talking about? I think he must have took a wrong turn somewhere. I sure would like to hear his opinion on the possibility of a virtual kibbutz for preparing people for the good life.

[Lazarus Long]

What's Lazarus talking about? I think he must have took a wrong turn somewhere.

No Elijah I was referring to an idea for an online game (RPG= Role Playing Game) like the type in the article that was being used to SIM the Roman period. When I was thinking about it and reading about this Rome sim you and the others were engrossed in debate over evolution and is ID science? Then the thought occurred to me that your ideas can be tested in a sim model like the one that describes Rome or that you propose to model as a *kibbutz*

By the way a kibbutz without shared real *physical* daily labor should be called a *kibbittz* instead IMO.

[william7]

Ah, I understand. It would be difficult to emphasize the social aspect of kibbutz life this way I guess while this is, according to my limited knowledge, the key issue of a kibbutz?

What are you saying here? Are you for the kibbutz or against it?

I wish I knew more about computing and this Artificial General Intelligence stuff. I would like to see somebody explain how this AGI stuff could prepare or educate people for kibbutz living if it was finally determined that a new style of kibbutz was absolutely necessary for man's survival on this planet.

[struct]

Does anyone else think that "kibbutz" is a funny sounding word, or is it just me?

Yea, I find that funny too.
I have two names in mind for the ID project that L.L. is proposing: kinnutz or keekaatz.

[Brainbox]

Ah, I understand. It would be difficult to emphasize the social aspect of kibbutz life this way I guess while this is, according to my limited knowledge, the key issue of a kibbutz?

What are you saying here? Are you for the kibbutz or against it?

I don't know if I'm for or against it. Actually, I'm not for or against almost everything. Just a question to provoke critical thinking. The RPG could be an idea that could simulate more in-depth social and relational issues, but would be very difficult and expensive to develop and build. Second life could only provide a virtual representation of the physical appearance of a kibbutz and is therefore lacking the essentials of kibbutz life I guess.

[Live Forever]

Does anyone else think that "kibbutz" is a funny sounding word, or is it just me?

Below is a definition of the word from Wikipedia.

I know the definition of the word, it is just a funny sounding word.

[william7]

I don't know if I'm for or against it. Actually, I'm not for or against almost everything. Just a question to provoke critical thinking. The RPG could be an idea that could simulate more in-depth social and relational issues, but would be very difficult and expensive to develop and build. Second life could only provide a virtual representation of the physical appearance of a kibbutz and is therefore lacking the essentials of kibbutz life I guess.

Would you say that it might be possible to develop a perfect model of kibbutz living in a Second Life format sometime in the near future where real people could interact with AGI type characters that could serve as role models to educate and prepare them to actually live the real kibbutz life? I watched this google video, http://video.google....557046246483319, of a talk by Dr. Ben Goertzel that Live Forever posted that really impressed me and suggested that this would be possible in the future.

[Brainbox]

I think I need to disappoint you. Not in the very near future. And I doubt that virtual reality will be able to give the required experience at all. Reading a good book will be better IMO. But I might be old fashioned. And nothing is able to replace personal contact.

What are your plans regarding these kibbutzes? Or kibbutz? Planning to turn the world into one giant kibbutz?

[william7]

I think I need to disappoint you. Not in the very near future. And I doubt that virtual reality will be able to give the required experience at all. Reading a good book will be better IMO. But I might be old fashioned. And nothing is able to replace personal contact.

I think you might be right about that. Makes a lot of sense.

What are your plans regarding these kibbutzes? Or kibbutz? Planning to turn the world into one giant kibbutz?

I'm hoping to see Christian kibbutzim take over the world once reality strikes home and the necessity becomes obvious. I fell in love with computers not too long ago so I'm hoping to see computers and this Artificial Intelligence stuff play a role in that.

[Live Forever]

Elijah, if you are really interested in the coming human AI, I would recommend that you perhaps do some reading about the Singularity. Of course, the most well known author is Ray Kurzweil about some of the coming future technologies, but also the Singularity Institute (and more specifically Eliezer Yudkowsky, although I will warn you some of his stuff can get a bit complex) might be somewhere to start looking.

I have to say, though, that the coming AGI and Singularity revolution will have nothing to do with your concept of religion or kibbutzism, but instead will be used to (hopefully, as long as everything works correctly and it doesn't destroy humanity) solve all of the major problems of the world. The explosion of intelligence that will be the Singularity will far outweigh anything that we can imagine. I can point you more specifically to some links to read if you would like...

[william7]

Sure, Live Forever, give me some links I can look at that'll give me a better understanding of the AGI and Singularity revolution you mention. What if the programmers of these advanced computer systems come to the realization that man's survival requires following the biblical blueprint for achieving Utopia and immortality? Couldn't they just program them to always favor biblical morality and communal living? It wouldn't make sense to turn something loose that has the discretion to do as it sees fit.

[Live Forever]

Sure, Live Forever, give me some links I can look at that'll give me a better understanding of the AGI and Singularity revolution you mention.

Here are a few:
http://en.wikipedia....cal_singularity
http://www.singinst....ing/corereading
http://yudkowsky.net/
http://www.aleph.se/...al/Singularity/
There are lots of links in these, and I know it is a lot and most of them are hard to comprehend, but I would suggest reading through some of the ones at the Singularity Institute. (the second link)
(If anyone else has some other ones they think might be good speak up)

There are also tons of threads discussing a lot of the aspects of Seed AI and every other concept of AI here:
http://www.imminst.o...?s=&act=SF&f=11

I would lay out the basic concept here as I understand it, but I think it would be a bit out of place. (although I will do so if you wish)

What if the programmers of these advanced computer systems come to the realization that man's survival requires following the biblical blueprint for achieving Utopia and immortality? Couldn't they just program them to always favor biblical morality and communal living? It wouldn't make sense to turn something loose that has the discretion to do as it sees fit.

The programmers are working on creating an intelligence of human level. (Artificial General Intelligence or AGI) They have no need for biblical or religious principles of any kind, but instead a general intelligence. (of which can modify its own code and will quickly become much more intelligent, on the order of millions or billions of times smarter than humans, in a short period of time; Look at the links provided or some of the thread discussions for more info) I am sure that whatever intelligence would eventually learn about all world religions, but I sincerely hope that there are no fundies of any religious persuasion that are attempting to create an AGI. (I feel confident there aren't though, as it takes a certain level of intelligence to take on such a project which precludes certain mindsets, if you know what I mean)

[maestro949]

Experience ancient Rome, virtually

ROME - Computer experts on Monday unveiled a digital reproduction of ancient Rome as it appeared at the peak of its power in A.D. 320 — what they called the largest and most complete simulation of a historic city ever created.

http://news.yahoo.co..._virtual_rome_1

Can somebody explain to me how big a deal this is? I'm real interested in communal research and was wondering if computer scientists could create a simulation of a model kibbutz where a person using a computer could then tour it or learn to live in one online?

A lot of it depends on how interactive and immersive you want your environment to be. There's a bit of an exponential curve to each. Online role-playing games with a 3D visual component have been around for quite awhile. Taking a look at some of those (e.g World of Warcraft) or as LiveForever mentioned, Second Life. They would give you ideas as to how you can move around and experience a more interactive virtual environment.

One thing to note is that, despite the bloodshed and violence of many of these online RPGs they all have a social aspect to them. In fact, many people simply log on to socialize with the online friends they have made while others simply hack and slash their way through until their avatar is maxed out, get bored and move on to the next game.

I wouldn't be surprised to see religious organizations developing spiritually-centered virtual worlds over time. The key to propagating religious memes is injecting ideas into childrens' minds at the earliest age possible. If the future of childhood development and education is via interaction with others via virtual worlds then it's a safe bet that religions will find a way to get their piece of the mindshare.

[maestro949]

Does anyone else think that "kibbutz" is a funny sounding word, or is it just me?

kibbles and bits, kibbles and bits, I’m gonna get me some kibbles and bits!

[william7]

Experience ancient Rome, virtually

ROME - Computer experts on Monday unveiled a digital reproduction of ancient Rome as it appeared at the peak of its power in A.D. 320 — what they called the largest and most complete simulation of a historic city ever created.

http://news.yahoo.co..._virtual_rome_1

Can somebody explain to me how big a deal this is? I'm real interested in communal research and was wondering if computer scientists could create a simulation of a model kibbutz where a person using a computer could then tour it or learn to live in one online?

A lot of it depends on how interactive and immersive you want your environment to be. There's a bit of an exponential curve to each. Online role-playing games with a 3D visual component have been around for quite awhile. Taking a look at some of those (e.g World of Warcraft) or as LiveForever mentioned, Second Life. They would give you ideas as to how you can move around and experience a more interactive virtual environment.

One thing to note is that, despite the bloodshed and violence of many of these online RPGs they all have a social aspect to them. In fact, many people simply log on to socialize with the online friends they have made while others simply hack and slash their way through until their avatar is maxed out, get bored and move on to the next game.

I wouldn't be surprised to see religious organizations developing spiritually-centered virtual worlds over time. The key to propagating religious memes is injecting ideas into childrens' minds at the earliest age possible. If the future of childhood development and education is via interaction with others via virtual worlds then it's a safe bet that religions will find a way to get their piece of the mindshare.

Thanks a million for this information and point of view. It gives me hope something like I'm thinking of could be developed to help people prepare for life in a new style of kibbutz. Believe it or not, I've never played one of those sophisticated computer games yet. I plan to as soon as I get the chance.