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Global Cooling


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#121 platypus

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Posted 27 August 2007 - 04:20 PM

It's really beyond my comprehension that anyone, especially someone as rational as you, could not believe that a 1 degree f rise in global temperatures might just be a natural occurrence that has nothing to do with people. It's gone up much more than this in the past.

Natural occurence caused by what? According to the best available models adding CO2 and methane to the atmosphere warms up the planet, where's the credible evidence and models claming that is not true?

#122 platypus

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Posted 27 August 2007 - 04:31 PM

This scientist is just one of hundreds saying the same thing. I think it's a good explanation why most of the so called science is pro GW.
Scientists, especially Young ones are afraid to not be pro GW. This is why just because the majority of studies back GW it doesn't mean it's true.

It's publish or perish. What did the opposition publish? If not much, why should anyone take them seriously?

Here's a example. There are probably fifty studies claiming Greenland is proof of GW but this one Study counters all of them because it's better, and it comes for an established scientist so he's not in fear for his career.

It's asinine to claim the warming up of Greenland "proves" GW, I doubt you can find any studies claiming that. It's just that Greenland is in the arctic and the models say that arctic should warm up more than the rest of the planet when more greenhouse gases are put into the atmosphere.

I know this study doesn't disprove GW but it does point out the fallacy of believing that having more pro studies means anything.

Of course meaning having more studies means something.

#123 biknut

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Posted 27 August 2007 - 04:42 PM

It's really beyond my comprehension that anyone, especially someone as rational as you, could not believe that a 1 degree f rise in global temperatures might just be a natural occurrence that has nothing to do with people. It's gone up much more than this in the past.

Natural occurence caused by what? According to the best available models adding CO2 and methane to the atmosphere warms up the planet, where's the credible evidence and models claming that is not true?


I think the answer is, you call 1 degree f proof? Seems like the models are wrong because what's happened isn't more than you might expect from natural occurrence. It only takes common sense to tell that.

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#124 biknut

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Posted 27 August 2007 - 04:52 PM

This scientist is just one of hundreds saying the same thing. I think it's a good explanation why most of the so called science is pro GW.
Scientists, especially Young ones are afraid to not be pro GW. This is why just because the majority of studies back GW it doesn't mean it's true.


It's publish or perish.


What you mean is, publish the party line or perish.

#125 platypus

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Posted 27 August 2007 - 05:21 PM

It's really beyond my comprehension that anyone, especially someone as rational as you, could not believe that a 1 degree f rise in global temperatures might just be a natural occurrence that has nothing to do with people. It's gone up much more than this in the past.

Natural occurence caused by what? According to the best available models adding CO2 and methane to the atmosphere warms up the planet, where's the credible evidence and models claming that is not true?


I think the answer is, you call 1 degree f proof? Seems like the models are wrong because what's happened isn't more than you might expect from natural occurrence. It only takes common sense to tell that.

No, I wouldn't call 0.5C proof. Anyway, the trend is there and by far the best available explanation is greenhouse gases. Let's see in ten years if the situation is better or worse. If the trend is real and man-made, at some point it might become too difficult to stop and humanity would need to live with the hard consequences.

#126 platypus

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Posted 27 August 2007 - 05:27 PM

This scientist is just one of hundreds saying the same thing. I think it's a good explanation why most of the so called science is pro GW.
Scientists, especially Young ones are afraid to not be pro GW. This is why just because the majority of studies back GW it doesn't mean it's true.

What you mean is, publish the party line or perish.

No. The scientific method is not perfect but it's far better than anything else we have. I'm not quite sure why you want to side with the small minority ot scientific dissidents, usually it pays to bet with the majority.

#127 Lazarus Long

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 12:29 PM

Some critical thought is needed here. The mean global temperature rise attributed to humans since the industrial revolution is approximately 1 degree Celsius. Divide the C02 output of campfires by sparsely populated prehistorics by the CO2 output since the industrial revolution, multiply by 1 degree Celsius, and then ask how such an infinitesimal change could be detected against a backdrop of ice ages in the presence of forest fires and other natural sources of CO2.


Just for the record Brian the human sourced CO2 input was not just from camp fires but the widespread practice of deforestation through burning the entire forest down.

We do see the record of these occurrences in the fossil record pretty clearly, like when humans arrived in Australian starting about 50,000 y/o. The record is not only in sources that describe atmospheric chemistry but ash layers and individual fossils within subsurface strata.

Second, we see a shift in CO2 associated with human behavior that corresponds with multiple transitional periods of human conduct, one when the use of fire for hunting (driving herds on the savanna, or burning forests) shifts to even larger scale burning to push back jungle, forest and savanna for agriculture (we don't call it slash and burn for nothing) and then again as we enter the Bronze and the first large scale urban populaces of the post neolithic period.

BTW I said we could measure the impact, not that these practices were resulting directly in Global Warming. I suggest you take a little more time to review the extensive work on paleo-climatology that is being laid out with a combination of tree ring and fossil geological data to corroborate the impact of human behavior on climate. While it certainly is complex it is being done. The models clearly have a high degree of error but paleontology depends very closely on geological data and the ability to map when we see volcanic aerosols and gases, as opposed to other sources is relatively clear.

IOW we can tell from the records being formed when it is nature by itself and what are the various sources and when something else is being added to the mix. We can then correlate that data with other records to look for alternative sources and sometimes we do find them but more often than not we are seeing the alternative is some form of human behavior that has fossil evidence associated with it.

Some clear examples for human input during the bronze age are as simple as chemical signatures from smelting others like in the case of Australia are more complex but are demonstrated in the fossil record by the extent of the widespread destruction of habitat for many life forms, the spike up in extinctions that is associated with the introduction and subsequent spike up of human population that correspond to atmospheric chemistry of the period and measurable global mean temperature shift.

We can see the forests and prairies burning in the soil layers and also see the rate of these occurrences is not always associated with naturally occurring droughts, volcanoes etc but with the introduction of these practices by humans.

This is not hyperbole, or bad science, it is complex and it does integrate homogeneous data from a large number of heterogeneous sources so in that respect you have a point.

However you have made a mistake if you are thinking I suggested that all global warming during this period is due to human activity. I have never claimed anything like that, I said we can measure the impact of human behavior a remarkable way back and I also said the degree of error increases the farther from the present we go.

However we do not have one single homogeneous source, we have multiple homogeneous sources of information and their data can be cross referenced to produce a remarkably accurate detailed analysis of climate (and some human conduct) extending back millions of years. So long before the human presence that despite the controversy about the extent of the human impact, the evidence of that impact is as clear as a footprint in stone.

The data I refer to are a combination of ice cores, ocean sediment cores, tree rings, fossil diatoms, pollen and insects that all demonstrate high sensitivity to temperature, physical evidence of human behavior from digs, geological strata that all contribute chemical, temperature and atmospheric humidity info to the mix and can be cross correlated by alignment with specific key events of a global nature like super volcanic eruptions etc.

No it is not perfect and it does depend to a great degree on a modern forensic analysis, not just geology anymore but it is remarkably consistent in its message from independently sourced data from around the world.

#128 Lazarus Long

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 12:42 PM

Yes but the data is incorrect. 1998 was the warnest year. It looks like they're trying to say something that isn't true.


Biknut you are still not reading the graph accurately and you are confusing the "five year mean temperature" with the "annual global mean temperature." The graph does show 1998 to be the warmest year but it shows the 5 year mean temperature to continue increasing.

Posted Image

Second, it is not .5C, it is not even just 1C in a century, it is the rate of human contribution to the shift accelerating over a range that has only about a 5 to 8 degree C TOTAL range. BTW the .5C is evidence not "proof". The problem is you (and most people) see a small number in terms of the total range of temperature but the issue is the range of temperature necessary for a significant climate shift, not to the total temperature range of the planet. In that respect 1C represents from a 10% to 20% shift in the total range that correlates to the difference of global mean temperature between current climate, the middle of an Ice Age or the Pleistocene.

What we don't yet know yet is what is the precise tipping point with respect to that range to create irreversible destabilization of the climate. It could be 50% of the range, it could be 80% and it could already be too late.

What we also do not have is a clear picture of how fast the changes will occur once that tipping point is reached and whether the human contribution to the problem is accelerating that process significantly as well, or even if once the tipping point is passed if it means we are going to swing up and then back rapidly into a Global Ice Age or irrevocably shift into a warmer mode that is actually a lot closer to the global mean for most of geological history.

Humanity evolved during the latest Ice Age. The present, which we are accustomed to, is considered to be an INTER GLACIAL period. In fact global climate for most this planets' existence was considerably warmer with significantly less land surface area available and no ice at the poles. If we go back to that condition it will be a very different world. If we go back gradually most will adapt, if we went back suddenly it will cause massive disruption of society and could be catastrophic. If rapid warming induces a return to subsequent rapid glacial accretion and polar growth, it will likely take centuries for the glaciers to reach the US but it will only take a few years of widespread global drought induced by that event to catastrophically impact global food supply.

Neither extreme offers more probable advantages than risks.

Edited by Lazarus Long, 28 August 2007 - 01:48 PM.


#129 biknut

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 03:43 PM

Biknut you are still not reading the graph accurately and you are confusing the "five year mean temperature" with the "annual global mean temperature."  The graph does show 1998 to be the warmest year but it shows the 5 year mean temperature to continue increasing.

Posted Image


OK, I was looking at a different graph, but I understand what your saying.

Looking at this graph I really don't see anything to be concerned about. It looks like around 1910 it was just as far below the average as it is above the average now. Still just looks like normal variation. My guess would be we're about to top out now and should start going back down soon.

If man made GW is real, the temperature will keep going up. Scientists track record at predicting climate change has been pretty bad in the past. I'm not ready to bet the farm on their predictions yet.

#130 platypus

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 04:55 PM

Looking at this graph I really don't see anything to be concerned about.

Maybe not if it were the only evidence. The problem is that the best models blame greenhouse gases and in a business-as-usual scenario the amount of greenhouse gases will continue to increase.

#131 dannov

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 05:28 PM

The fact that acid rain is clearly due to pollution is enough for anyone to want to rid ourselves of fossil fuels. Global warming, fact or fiction, I don't care--I just want to end our reliance on fossil fuels, and stop with the inner government suppression of free energy that has been going on for the better part of a century. Damned Rockefeller has all the people that matter in his pocketbook.

#132 Mind

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 06:39 PM

and in a business-as-usual scenario the amount of greenhouse gases will continue to increase.


That is one flaw in the GCM predictions used by the IPCC (business as usual). They expect a doubling of oil production by 2025 (from 80 million barrels a day up to 160 million). This is not even remotely possible given our current knowledge of reserves and production possiblities. Now you could make an argument that other fossil fuels will fill in the gap....but it will get increasingly more expensive very quick. It is a dynamic (not static) market that will most likely lead to a quicker adoption of alternative clean fuels.

If you believe there is a fair chance that we will have AGI and robust rejuvenation therapies by 2050, then it would be illogical to also believe that we will still drive cars with internal combustion engines around that time.

#133 dannov

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 02:57 PM

Tesla was on the cusp of free energy back in the early 1900s before Morgan refused to fund him any longer, seeing no direct benefit to him in providing free energy to the world.

In 1900, Morgan financed inventor Nikola Tesla and his Wardenclyffe Tower with $150,000 for experiments in radio. However, in 1903, when the tower structure was near completion, it was still not yet functional due to last-minute design changes that introduced an unintentional defect. When Morgan wanted to know "Where can I put the meter?", Tesla had no answer. Tesla's vision of free power did not agree with Morgan's worldview; nor would it pay for the maintenance of the transmission system. Construction costs eventually exceeded the money provided by Morgan, and additional financiers were reluctant to come forth. By July 1904, Morgan (and the other investors) finally decided they would not provide any additional financing. Morgan also encouraged other investors to avoid the project.


The Japanese, from what I understand, have had water as energy invented for over 30 years (suppressed). I think it's a bit ignorant for our society to believe that free energy hasn't already been invented considering all of our other advances, however, think of the richest people in the world. The richest folks are those who control banks and energy. It is only natural to believe that if you have a fortune amassed from controlling energy that you would do everything in your power to prevent a free version of it coming into the market.

Take a look at how much ExxonMobile contributed to the prior presidential campaigns.

#134 platypus

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 12:37 AM

That is one flaw in the GCM predictions used by the IPCC (business as usual). They expect a doubling of oil production by 2025 (from 80 million barrels a day up to 160 million). This is not even remotely possible given our current knowledge of reserves and production possiblities. Now you could make an argument that other fossil fuels will fill in the gap....but it will get increasingly more expensive very quick. It is a dynamic (not static) market that will most likely lead to a quicker adoption of alternative clean fuels.

I think coal will stay relatively cheap...and that people will be forced to use it.

#135 biknut

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 02:17 AM

I think coal will stay relatively cheap...and that people will be forced to use it.


America is the Saudi Arabia of coal.

#136 whitenoise

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 02:26 AM

We already use a ton of coal anyway. If I remember correctly, it's something like half or so of our electrical energy supply comes from coal-based power plants. We'll still need oil for vehicles however. It's either biodesiel or electric after that.

If we're lucky, people will let go of their fears about nuclear power in the short term. And of course work is ongoing on sustainable systems.

#137 biknut

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 02:46 AM

We can make oil out of coal for less than $70 a barrel.

#138 Mind

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 02:03 PM

Clean coal, and clean energy production from it, is already practiced in some newer plants. It is available. It will be much easier to cut/reduce emissions from a few thousand coal plants than to regulate hundreds of millions of internal combustion engines. So when oil declines, we should have a scenario where we have less CO2 emissions and less pollution (electric cars instead of petrol). This should happen well before the 2100 and probably before 2050. So the "business as usual" forecast is really the extreme "worst case scenario".

#139 platypus

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 02:29 PM

Clean coal, and clean energy production from it, is already practiced in some newer plants. It is available. It will be much easier to cut/reduce emissions from a few thousand coal plants than to regulate hundreds of millions of internal combustion engines. So when oil declines, we should have a scenario where we have less CO2 emissions and less pollution (electric cars instead of petrol). This should happen well before the 2100 and probably before 2050. So the "business as usual" forecast is really the extreme "worst case scenario".

I'm not sure if clean coal is really available yet. Besides, doesn't it need a place with suitable geology for undergraound CO2 storage? Besides, melting permafrost etc. might still increase CO2 in the atmosphere even if we generated all our energy in a carbon neutral way. Let's hope we don't drive the climate over too many irreversible tipping points..

#140 biknut

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Posted 24 September 2007 - 12:21 AM

This is very informative. It gives some insight into how we're being lied too by the IPCC.

This guy is the leading authority on sea level rise and he says 1.1 mm a year.


Claim That Sea Level Is Rising Is a Total Fraud

Interview: Dr. Nils-Axel Mörner

EIR June 22, 2007

Dr. Nils-Axel Mörner is the head of the Paleogeophysics and
Geodynamics department at Stockholm University in Sweden.
He is past president (1999-2003) of the INQUA Commission
on Sea Level Changes and Coastal Evolution, and
leader of the Maldives Sea Level Project. Dr. Mörner has
been studying the sea level and its effects on coastal areas for
some 35 years. He was interviewed by Gregory Murphy on
June 6 for EIR.

http://www.larouchep...f/33-37_725.pdf

#141 platypus

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Posted 24 September 2007 - 12:18 PM

http://www.larouchep...f/33-37_725.pdf

As far as I can see, the tide gauges are used to remove "altimeter drift" using the methods described here:
http://sealevel.colo...calibration.php
I do not see how a group of tide-gauges to do this introduces a 3.3mm/year trend in the data, and neither does the scientific community AFAIK. Anyway, I'll consult my colleagues whose expertise is in satellite altimetry (unlike the quoted sceptic).

#142 Mind

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Posted 24 September 2007 - 04:53 PM

Let's hope we don't drive the climate over too many irreversible tipping points..


I don't think there are any "irreversible" tipping points either in "natural" cycles or proposed AGW scenarios. If we engineered GW then we can reverse engineer it. Proposals range from orbital shields to fertilizing the oceans with iron. In the long term, I actually hope we do take some control of the climate. I think it is our destiny. Although, I guess, if you follow AGW theories we are already masters of the climate. According to AGW proponents, nothing changes (now or in the future) unless humans cause it (a point that will be all over the air waves this week because of the UN climate conference).

#143 soren

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Posted 25 September 2007 - 04:10 AM

Well the guys in the video (at least the first segment, I am still watching it) even say that global warming is happening, just that it is just not being driven by man. (or, more specifically, from man's CO2 emissions)


I don't know why advocates of dominator economics (which includes people as diverse as Lyndon LaRouche and the late Jerry Falwell), who want to use economic progress to control more and more of nature, have latched onto man-made global warming as some kind of hoax or "swindle." You'd think they would want to know how to control Earth's climate, and would thank the climate scientists for finding an imprecise but definitely effective method for doing so.


Indeed... the solar element is out of tune with our climatic fluctuations, we have seen how little effect polarity reversal had on anything...
We know methane and CO2 have marked effects on climate, as in the infancy of our planet.
The fact is that there can be little else to distract the probing eye away from human activity on earth.
By which I mean, whats the other new trends that have emerged recently, that could somehow affect the atmosphere???
Cattle flatulence?
Axis irregularities? In fact all the other elements that COULD be the cause of - chaotic amplifiers, in our weather systems, pale into insignificance when put with the amount of carbon humanity is pumping out into the skies.
I say this all the time, and I do not say that its a stone clad fact.
But in science, as in criminal investigation, - you seek out the most likely causal link, and work from there.
I dont think one can honestly put aside all suspicion of carbon emissions. How could you?
But if its not the cause, then... at least you know your in a much deeper mess than you originally thought.
Chances are it is related to the filling up of the atmosphere with the gaseous remnants of our ancient past.
And its a likely bet in any case, so it makes sense to adjust emission levels. Just to see what happens.
The bearded terror from the deap, Margaret Thatcher fitted CO2 caps on electricity generators during the de-nationalisation programs she did in tandem with dear old Ronny.
This didn't put too much strain onto industry, or the tax payer.
Yet, year on year increases in emissions have been the measured response and its simply unscientific.
I would hardly wish to have Len Deighton as my sole scientific adviser as your president seems to have gone for...
If I see to the day when JK Rowling becomes UK Parliamentary adviser for science, then we can swap notes...
Im sorry, Im a bit drunk. But its just unscientific I say.
Check out the most likely link, and proceed by elimination. And we are not doing this at all.
Gambling with our habitat does not bode well for human longevity...

#144 soren

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Posted 25 September 2007 - 04:37 AM

I don't think there are any "irreversible" tipping points either in "natural" cycles or proposed AGW scenarios. If we engineered GW then we can reverse engineer it. Proposals range from orbital shields to fertilizing the oceans with iron. In the long term, I actually hope we do take some control of the climate. I think it is our destiny. Although, I guess, if you follow AGW theories we are already masters of the climate. According to AGW proponents, nothing changes (now or in the future) unless humans cause it (a point that will be all over the air waves this week because of the UN climate conference).


Yes and there's that too... If we aspire to someday terraform planets, and one day even countenance Frank Tippler's space time patching at the Omega point, we are going to have to take a look at these things and see how good we are.
I dont believe that we have anything like the capability to control the vast number of variables which our weather system contains.
Not for a LOOOOONG time hence I would put -
I think we should hold off, awhile, until we have the computational power to be able to build accurate models of our atmosphere before pulling it apart.
Hell, if our LE technology doesn't come along soon, we may need to rest up in cryo tanks awhile. And a nice stable environment would be pretty handy for this purpose!
Anyhow, the UN always say nice things about reducing climate change, while flying in hundreds of speakers and their aids by plane!
They dont actually intend to do anything, I think...
Am I ranting?
Its high time mankind streamlined itself, with regard to energy usage and social organisation.
Yes, Im ranting! Its goodnight in this case.
Lets see what happens in the next 5 years...
After a good nights sleep. ;)

#145 soren

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Posted 25 September 2007 - 01:55 PM

That is one flaw in the GCM predictions used by the IPCC (business as usual). They expect a doubling of oil production by 2025 (from 80 million barrels a day up to 160 million). This is not even remotely possible given our current knowledge of reserves and production possiblities. Now you could make an argument that other fossil fuels will fill in the gap....but it will get increasingly more expensive very quick. It is a dynamic (not static) market that will most likely lead to a quicker adoption of alternative clean fuels.

If you believe there is a fair chance that we will have AGI and robust rejuvenation therapies by 2050, then it would be illogical to also believe that we will still drive cars with internal combustion engines around that time.


I saw that Peter Thiel had pumped money into an electric car which looked and went like a Ferrari. The Tesla. Due out in 2008.
Heres a cutting.

`On the good side, Tesla says it will ensure a travel range of 245 miles (EPA combined cycle) on a single charge, which is just short from the original 250 mile goal, but more than the “over 200 mile” qualification the company had made in March. The car has become heavier, with the addition of extra equipment to fulfill safety regulations, but apparently it hasn’t impacted the car’s performance and range significantly. Siry also confirmed with VentureBeat that the car will still go from zero to 60 mph in 4 seconds, meeting to its original pledge.'

#146 platypus

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Posted 25 September 2007 - 02:59 PM

I don't think there are any "irreversible" tipping points either in "natural" cycles or proposed AGW scenarios.

Sure there are, there might be no way of returning the climate system to the previous state without going through a lot of other states, which might be impossible or take thousands or hundreds of thousands of years. For example, once you accelerate glacier flow enough to raise the sea level with, say, 5 meters, there is simply no way of putting that water back into the ice-sheets quickly (adding ice-sheet mass is a lot slower than recuding it through glacier flow) and even if such a magic bullet existed, don't you think that using it would not affect other parts of the climate system?

#147 Mind

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Posted 25 September 2007 - 07:05 PM

Sure there are

Ok, you are probably talking short time scales here. Still, I would argue that there are probably methods to lock ice back up in glaciers through a massive global engineering effort (after all according to AGW theorists, we engineered an increase of sea level by one foot over the last century). We wouldn't do it because another 3 foot rise in ocean levels over the course of 100 years is not worth the cost. Another three feet (one third of an inch per year) is not the "end of the world" as is often portrayed in the media. Is it worth it to forcibly reduce the use of fossil fuels and slow down progress and crimp increasing prosperity that has been spreading across the world? I don't think so. Clean energy purchases and production should be made 100% tax free and tax deductible.

#148 soren

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Posted 26 September 2007 - 07:06 AM

Yes, indeed. I am thinking short term.
It seems to me we are poorly equipped now to deal with more exaggerated changes in climate.
We in Britain are freakishly fluffed by the gulf stream, even though we share a comparable latitude with Alaska.
Few facts are nailed down to climatology, and theres still quite a lot of disagreement about how much the air temperature of Northern Europe is warmed in this way - but I'd rather not find out just now!
We had a little ice age, back in the 17/18 century, at one point the Thames was frozen, - this was over a 100 years before London had a sewage system, so it must have resembled a giant stretch of blue ice, (to use the avionics term for frozen shit)
Most forecasts for this area of change point to snap Siberian winters, which would bring much of the UK economy to a halt, taking with it Europe, and certainly causing massive instability in the world economy.
Another factor is not just the raising of sea levels in themselves, its the effect those extra billions of tonnes of water will have on coastal areas.
I'm all for grand scale engineering of course! Artificial landmasses, controlling the ice caps, indeed gaining mastery of our climate would be paramount to learning how to do the same to less hospitable planets..
If nothing happened, and we had reduced carbon emissions, we could monitor the effect and learn much from it, and this would be valuable knowledge should we face continued climatic ossilations, which is likely.
If the stuff does turn nasty, our world economy will face serious consequences, and it could prove to be a costly drain on our resources and time. dealing with the effects.

#149 platypus

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Posted 26 September 2007 - 07:46 AM

Ok, you are probably talking short time scales here. Still, I would argue that there are probably methods to lock ice back up in glaciers through a massive global engineering effort (after all according to AGW theorists, we engineered an increase of sea level by one foot over the last century). We wouldn't do it because another 3 foot rise in ocean levels over the course of 100 years is not worth the cost. Another three feet (one third of an inch per year) is not the "end of the world" as is often portrayed in the media. Is it worth it to forcibly reduce the use of fossil fuels and slow down progress and crimp increasing prosperity that has been spreading across the world? I don't think so. Clean energy purchases and production should be made 100% tax free and tax deductible.

I think "engineering" several hundred thousands cubic kilometers of water back into ice-sheets is a task several orders of magnitude bigger than anything we could manage. And because it's impossible to just "rewind" the situation, our efforts to do so will affect the climate system in other ways.

What if we get six feet in 150 years? Or ten in 200? 25 feet in 500? Should we act strongly now or not?

#150 biknut

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Posted 26 September 2007 - 02:46 PM

Lier exposed.

http://ibdeditorial....275526219598836

How many people, for instance, know that James Hansen, a man billed as a
lonely "NASA whistleblower" standing up to the mighty U.S. government, was
really funded by Soros' Open Society Institute
, which gave him "legal and
media advice"?

That's right, Hansen was packaged for the media by Soros'
flagship "philanthropy," by as much as $720,000, most likely under the
OSI's "politicization of science" program.

That may have meant that Hansen had media flacks help him get on the
evening news to push his agenda and lawyers pressuring officials to let
him spout his supposedly "censored" spiel for weeks in the name of advancing
the global warming agenda.


Hansen even succeeded, with public pressure from his nightly news
performances, in forcing NASA to change its media policies to his advantage.




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