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Global Cooling


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#331

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Posted 28 February 2008 - 06:42 PM

How much of the current global climate change can humans actually reverse if we assumed that carbon emissions were cut/reduced ? and more importantly how long will it take to see the effects?


Depends on how much we cut/reduce emissions and what feasible sequestering strategies we can put into effect. There are also schemes to put up huge sun shades to help cool the earth but I find that assumes GW and ignores the hard core science as is exemplified behind the Hamaker theory but us humans seem to have a proclivity for staunchly defending and holding onto ignorance if it serves not challenging the status quo.

#332 dannov

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Posted 28 February 2008 - 08:45 PM

No credible scientist that is involved in the environmental field that has done his or her due research believes that we are significantly impacting a climate change on a global scale.

You are so incorrect it's almost scary. I work with many such scientists daily, on Earth, and they do believe the research that shows humans affecting climate. What planet are you on?

Climate change is just something inherent to Earth, and the power elite are buying out scientists to try to establish a global tax on emissions to consolidate yet even more money from the already overtaxed middle class. No surprise, Obama supports a global tax, as well as the NAU.

Global tax on emissions might be needed, unfortunately. The idea that any interest group can "buy" dozens of scientific fields in ludicrous. It quite easy to buy some dissidents though, as they don't need to publish much on the subject.

We've had some real cold winters throughout my life, and some surprisingly warm ones. It hasn't just been getting warmer, and it hasn't just been getting colder. It all depends on how Mother Nature's feeling at any given time. It's quite egotistical of humans to think that they can impact the Earth on such a global scale with emissions alone.

It's not egotistical at all, the man-made irse of greenhouse gases has been dramatic. One cubic mile of oil burnt every year does have consequences..


Platypus, one cubic mile of oil burnt a year is microscopical next to volcanic and other natural emissions.

As for some great resources on the myth of climate change:

http://www.earthchangesmedia.com/

Mitch Battros has written two books: “Global Warming an Inconvenient Disguise” and “Solar Rain” – both excellent.

Scientists are merely recognizing something that has been going on since the dawn of time now that we have the science to recognize it. The scientists in the know are the ones that do their own original research and analysis rather than just being good little schoolboys and girls and eating up what teacher says. From an Imminst standpoint, see how many doctors know about the potency and benefits of many of the herbs that we know of...a surprisingly little amount. They'll be quick to subscribe you some worthless drugs though.

As for what planet I'm on--reality. It's far more than a special interest group that wants global taxation, it's a move by the power elite and international bankers that have manipulated and continue to manipulate world governments to this day. As Baron Von Rothschild so eloquently stated (a paraphrase): "I care not for who runs the government, for as long as I control the money supply, it doesn't matter." A global emission tax is just another sleazy globalist ploy to consolidate more wealth out of the middle class to the upper-tier. Al Gore is a tool of the Council on Foreign Relations, and he actually got a Nobel Prize for his work of flaw-filled and false flag propaganda.

Edited by dannov, 28 February 2008 - 08:47 PM.


#333 thughes

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Posted 28 February 2008 - 09:11 PM

Platypus, one cubic mile of oil burnt a year is microscopical next to volcanic and other natural emissions.


I'm pretty sure man-made emissions of C02 dwarf volcano emissions (at least normally, get a huge problem like the Siberian traps and I bet that would change). This seems to be one of those urban legends that floats around because it fits an agenda.

Here's something from the US geological survey:

http://volcanoes.usg...Gas/volgas.html

Do you actually have any data regarding your statement that :

No credible scientist that is involved in the environmental field that has done his or her due research believes that we are significantly impacting a climate change on a global scale."


As for what planet I'm on--reality.


Not if you are buying that volcano emissions story 8)


- Mey

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#334 platypus

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Posted 28 February 2008 - 09:58 PM

the hard core science as is exemplified behind the Hamaker theory but us humans seem to have a proclivity for staunchly defending and holding onto ignorance if it serves not challenging the status quo.

Can you give some references to the "Hamaker theory"? In peer-reviewed scientific journals of course...

#335

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Posted 29 February 2008 - 01:33 AM

There are plenty of peer reviewed studies on the effect of trace elements on plant growth. You can also find peer reviewed articles on the analysis of ancient deep water crystal oxygen isotope concentrations that shift the timing of the ice age cycles by 10,000 years opposed to the Milankovich theory and ocean deposit findings, which incidentally, were fudged to support the Milankovich theory. You can also find so-called peer reviewed articles on the coral deposits that also reinforce the crystal studies that denounce the Milankovich theory as so much astrological fantasy. The Milankovich cycles theory has been peer reviewed but the data that contradicts it, though peer reviewed and accepted, is ignored and the Milankovich cycles theory still predominate as the accepted theory which is convenient for the fossil-fuel funded peers of most scientific research, it absolves the threat of climate change from fossil fuel burning.

I suppose looking at the evidence yourself personally is out of the question? Seen the pictures of produce grown in volcanic soils? http://images.google...n...sa=N&tab=wi

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Carrots from remineralized soil on the left.

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One of many anecdotal photos sent over the years to the magazine in the early remineralization movement in the 1980s. These two oak leaves were sent by Jeannie Stevens from Victoria Australia. The larger leaf was that of an oak tree that was remineralized in March 1984. At that time the leaf was the same size as the smaller one on the left. There was a magnificent forest of seedlings under that tree in December 1986. The oak tree nearby with the smaller leaf on the left was not given an application of rock dust and had very few viable acorns and weak seedlings.


Here's some photos from http://www.suddenoaklife.org/
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I am working on getting a copy of the video "Stopping the Coming Ice Age" which came out in about 1981 and hope to convert it to a computer and web friendly format. It has videos of large scale experimentation on fields, forests and crops.

The Hamaker hypothesis is not a difficult concept to understand. Is it difficult to understand that ice ages are accompanied with less biomass tying up carbon dioxide? Is it difficult to understand that glaciers grind rock to dust leading eventually to replenishment of soils with trace elements?

There is some data out there that attests to the idea that peer review is less and less an intelligent criterium in discerning the validity of data as corporatism balloons out of control and the peerage is basically bought and paid for in science periodicals, government research and educational research. Want me to find a peer reviewed study on the corruption of peer review? :p

#336 dannov

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Posted 29 February 2008 - 07:18 AM

There is some data out there that attests to the idea that peer review is less and less an intelligent criterium in discerning the validity of data as corporatism balloons out of control and the peerage is basically bought and paid for in science periodicals, government research and educational research. Want me to find a peer reviewed study on the corruption of peer review?


Thhhhank you! As I always encourage people--follow the fiat-bricked road (since we killed gold a while ago so as to allow our gov.'t debt to grow to gigantic proportions, heh). Trace the source of a study and the money to be made by that study, and you will find why it peer-review means less and less these days. America in its current form is what you'd call a Corporate Fascist state, a soft form of fascism.

#337 platypus

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Posted 29 February 2008 - 07:51 AM

There are plenty of peer reviewed studies on the effect of trace elements on plant growth. You can also find peer reviewed articles on the analysis of ancient deep water crystal oxygen isotope concentrations that shift the timing of the ice age cycles by 10,000 years opposed to the Milankovich theory and ocean deposit findings, which incidentally, were fudged to support the Milankovich theory. You can also find so-called peer reviewed articles on the coral deposits that also reinforce the crystal studies that denounce the Milankovich theory as so much astrological fantasy. The Milankovich cycles theory has been peer reviewed but the data that contradicts it, though peer reviewed and accepted, is ignored and the Milankovich cycles theory still predominate as the accepted theory which is convenient for the fossil-fuel funded peers of most scientific research, it absolves the threat of climate change from fossil fuel burning.

References please. Top journals preferred. Even a referenced web-page would be a good start. I have trouble understanding how anything can "shift" the orbit of the Earth by 10000 years. I'm completely lost with the Hamacker theory and those pictures of oaks. Didn't anyone even bother to make a Wikipedia-page about the thing?

There is some data out there that attests to the idea that peer review is less and less an intelligent criterium in discerning the validity of data as corporatism balloons out of control and the peerage is basically bought and paid for in science periodicals, government research and educational research. Want me to find a peer reviewed study on the corruption of peer review? :p

Incorrect. Peer-review is the gold standard and will remain a cornerstone of the scientific method. Is the truth so inconvenient that people start to doubt peer-review, even though nobody can think of a better system. Peer-review is all voluntary work, nobody is paid to do it.

#338

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Posted 29 February 2008 - 10:01 AM

Chromosomal Chaos and Cancer--And Our Broken Peer Review System
http://www.deanesmay...176672506.shtml

America's system of funding scientific research has been labeled as "peer review." This is, much too often, a lie. In many cases--not all, but many--it needs to be called "Crony Review."


Is Peer Review Broken? http://www.umkc.edu/.....ew Broken.htm

Everyone, it seems, has a problem with peer review at top-tier journals. The recent discrediting of stem cell work by Woo-Suk Hwang at Seoul National University sparked media debates about the system's failure to detect fraud. Authors, meanwhile, are lodging a range of complaints: Reviewers sabotage papers that compete with their own, strong papers are sent to sister journals to boost their profiles, and editors at commercial journals are too young and invariably make mistakes about which papers to reject or accept. Still, even senior scientists are reluctant to give specific examples of being shortchanged by peer review, worrying that the move could jeopardize their future publications.

Despite a lack of evidence that peer review works, most scientists (by nature a skeptical lot) appear to believe in peer review. It's something that's held "absolutely sacred" in a field where people rarely accept anything with "blind faith," says Richard Smith, former editor of the BMJ and now CEO of UnitedHealth Europe and board member of PLoS. "It's very unscientific, really."

Indeed, an abundance of data from a range of journals suggests peer review does little to improve papers. In one 1998 experiment designed to test what peer review uncovers, researchers intentionally introduced eight errors into a research paper. More than 200 reviewers identified an average of only two errors. That same year, a paper in the Annals of Emergency Medicine showed that reviewers couldn't spot two-thirds of the major errors in a fake manuscript. In July 2005, an article in JAMA showed that among recent clinical research articles published in major journals, 16% of the reports showing an intervention was effective were contradicted by later findings, suggesting reviewers may have missed major flaws.

Some critics argue that peer review is inherently biased, because reviewers favor studies with statistically significant results. Research also suggests that statistical results published in many top journals aren't even correct, again highlighting what reviewers often miss. "There's a lot of evidence to (peer review's) downside," says Smith. "Even the very best journals have published rubbish they wish they'd never published at all. Peer review doesn't stop that." Moreover, peer review can also err in the other direction, passing on promising work: Some of the most highly cited papers were rejected by the first journals to see them.
The literature is also full of reports highlighting reviewers' potential limitations and biases. An abstract presented at the 2005 Peer Review Congress, held in Chicago in September, suggested that reviewers were less likely to reject a paper if it cited their work, although the trend was not statistically significant. Another paper at the same meeting showed that many journals lack policies on reviewer conflicts of interest; less than half of 91 biomedical journals say they have a policy at all, and only three percent say they publish conflict disclosures from peer reviewers. Still another study demonstrated that only 37% of reviewers agreed on the manuscripts that should be published. Peer review is a "lottery to some extent," says Smith.

Another subject that appears to show a breakdown in peer review is cold fusion. Scroll down to the entry “Nature and Scientific American on the Warpath Again” here http://www.lenr-canr.org/News.htm
There is a lot more out there but suffice it to say that what appears to be occurring is that much is passed off as peer review that is simply “business as usual” or “cronyism” as suggested above. I’m not against a peer review process only it appears that most that passes itself off as such is not as there are no peers for new research, virtually only vested interests.

Here is a summary of the Devil’s Hole study which was designed to discern the timing of ice-ages coming and goings most accurately: http://water.usgs.gov/nrp/devils.html . The researchers designed a study that would give accurate timings of past ice-age fluctuations, did the research and then found it disagreed with the Milankovich theory. I have collected the data and graphed it (linked to at the site) and it puts the start of the last 3 or 4 ice ages at peaks of carbon dioxide atmospheric content from ice core samples’ correlation rather than at the troughs as the Milankovich theory suggests. I don’t recall exactly where I saw it but when I performed my study in about 1994 I found reference to the ocean sediment deposit analysis used for corroborating the Milankovich cycles were altered to fit the theory. In other words, the Milankovich theory is based on data where the timing of Earth’s orbits were fudged, not the Devil’s Hole studies.

Get it? Peaks of carbon dioxide content coincided with the start of ice ages, not the opposite as many researchers consider as sacrosanct upon unquestioned acceptance of this basically astrological theory of the Milankovich cycles.

Do you disagree that there was probably less carbon dioxide tied up in biomass during ice ages? What might you suggest would drive moisture onto the land out of the oceans? Seen the research on noctilucent clouds? They appear to be growing in frequency and distribution. How might they affect Earth’s reflectivity? http://www.universet...ilucent-clouds/

Are you capable of independent thought and assessing evidence directly or must you depend on your faith in peer review to the extent of being blinded to the data your own senses can collect?

#339 platypus

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Posted 29 February 2008 - 10:26 AM

Chromosomal Chaos and Cancer--And Our Broken Peer Review System
http://www.deanesmay...176672506.shtml

America's system of funding scientific research has been labeled as "peer review." This is, much too often, a lie. In many cases--not all, but many--it needs to be called "Crony Review."

I'm talking about the peer-review system in scientific journals, it's the best system we know and enables science to progress. It's far from perfect of course, I know that from experience.

Here is a summary of the Devil's Hole study which was designed to discern the timing of ice-ages coming and goings most accurately: http://water.usgs.gov/nrp/devils.html . The researchers designed a study that would give accurate timings of past ice-age fluctuations, did the research and then found it disagreed with the Milankovich theory.

It's obvious and well known that other things than the orbit affect climate and ice ages, so what's the big deal?

Get it? Peaks of carbon dioxide content coincided with the start of ice ages, not the opposite as many researchers consider as sacrosanct upon unquestioned acceptance of this basically astrological theory of the Milankovich cycles.

You might be right. Is that somehow news to modern climate researchers?

Are you capable of independent thought and assessing evidence directly or must you depend on your faith in peer review to the extent of being blinded to the data your own senses can collect?

It would take a few years of solid work to start to understand the relevant data, so it's better to listen to the experts. Workshops and symposia are perfect places for discussing these kinds of issues in public.



#340 dannov

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Posted 29 February 2008 - 04:45 PM

Get it? Peaks of carbon dioxide content coincided with the start of ice ages, not the opposite as many researchers consider as sacrosanct upon unquestioned acceptance of this basically astrological theory of the Milankovich cycles.

You might be right. Is that somehow news to modern climate researchers?


Of course they know. They choose to ignore it. Again, financial influence. Why tell the truth for free when you can get paid to spread another man's lies as truth? The scientists that aren't bought out are the ones that do pay attention to the evidence and put science above themselves. There are honorable man everywhere, and there are scumbags everywhere. Unfortunately, the scumbags far outnumber the honorable men in places of power these days, the media, and so forth.

#341 platypus

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Posted 29 February 2008 - 07:08 PM

Get it? Peaks of carbon dioxide content coincided with the start of ice ages, not the opposite as many researchers consider as sacrosanct upon unquestioned acceptance of this basically astrological theory of the Milankovich cycles.

You might be right. Is that somehow news to modern climate researchers?

Of course they know. They choose to ignore it.

Who and where? Please be specific. Can you find something on realiclimate.org for example to back you up? I don't think so.

Again, financial influence. Why tell the truth for free when you can get paid to spread another man's lies as truth? The scientists that aren't bought out are the ones that do pay attention to the evidence and put science above themselves.

Yes, the scientists with integrity issued the following statements (please really read all of them them and think for awhile, hard).

http://en.wikipedia....g_organizations

"With the July 2007 release of the revised statement by the American Association of Petroleum Geologists, no remaining scientific body of national or international standing is known to reject the basic findings of human influence on recent climate."

Scientists are trying to do humanity a favor here but it seems the truth is somehow inconvenient for the assorted wingnuts. People who ignore the warnings of experts are idiots. Also, science has tackled far more controversial issues in the past, if you really believe that AGW is a librul conspiracy that is used to steal your freedoms you're pretty far out there. Did humans land on the moon or not? Peak oil? WTF?

#342

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Posted 29 February 2008 - 08:08 PM

Antarctica glaciers thinning 20x faster since 1990s? 2/29
http://www.physorg.c...s123491146.html

Global dust dispersal peaks at ends of ice ages? 2/29
http://www.scienceda...80228143540.htm

Computer model suggests even w/ no CO2 emissions, Earth heats up. 2/29
http://environment.n...mer-planet.html

Bacteria play major role in rain & snow precipitation? 2/28
http://www.physorg.c...s123429847.html

How might we stop accelerating destruction of the Amazon rain forests? 2/27
http://www.enn.com/e...s/article/31893

Platypus, I think maybe you are not getting enough sleep or something (which reminds me of a report I heard on the radio yesterday that most US adults only get some 6 hours sleep a night). I don’t think dannov claimed any kind of “”librul” conspiracy or even that “AGW” is fallacious and neither did I. I suspect its real though leads to the opposite and possibly abruptly. I do suggest that the warning that is embraced by most so-called experts is too little and very possibly too late.

#343 dannov

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 07:29 AM

Get it? Peaks of carbon dioxide content coincided with the start of ice ages, not the opposite as many researchers consider as sacrosanct upon unquestioned acceptance of this basically astrological theory of the Milankovich cycles.

You might be right. Is that somehow news to modern climate researchers?

Of course they know. They choose to ignore it.

Who and where? Please be specific. Can you find something on realiclimate.org for example to back you up? I don't think so.

Again, financial influence. Why tell the truth for free when you can get paid to spread another man's lies as truth? The scientists that aren't bought out are the ones that do pay attention to the evidence and put science above themselves.

Yes, the scientists with integrity issued the following statements (please really read all of them them and think for awhile, hard).

http://en.wikipedia....g_organizations

"With the July 2007 release of the revised statement by the American Association of Petroleum Geologists, no remaining scientific body of national or international standing is known to reject the basic findings of human influence on recent climate."

Scientists are trying to do humanity a favor here but it seems the truth is somehow inconvenient for the assorted wingnuts. People who ignore the warnings of experts are idiots. Also, science has tackled far more controversial issues in the past, if you really believe that AGW is a librul conspiracy that is used to steal your freedoms you're pretty far out there. Did humans land on the moon or not? Peak oil? WTF?


I'm not going to rule out that we have some mild effect on the climate, but to suggest that after approx. 200 years of us putting CO2 emissions into our environment that we are causing such a drastic change to the environment after our planet has been around for millions of years...that's a bit egotistical. I *do* believe in acid rain, and I *do* believe in a host of other things that are plenty reason enough to kill fossil fuels, but I have not seen anything (particularly the "convenient lie") to convince me that man is responsible for all of our woes.

The Peak Oil conspiracy is BS, we have virtually unlimited oil. Ask the Russians about that one.

I'm not suggesting a conspiracy at the level that you're speaking of. I do see a lot of evidence at the government level and above, however, to push global warming down people's throats with biased research. The research has a trickle-down effect and because it came from "credible" sources, is taken as gospel by researches and scientists underneath. Plant the research in well-known journals and magazines, and you engineer your own phenomena. The mavericks are the scientists that sacrifice their reputation to say "You know what, no, this isn't right...there's something fishy going on here." rather than just licking their finger, pointing it up in the air, and going with whatever way the wind is blowing.

As for the moon, I believe that we've been there, though not necessarily when we originally purported it. I've seen some superb, literal "smoking gun" analyses to prove that. However, that's not a debate for this site, and nothing that I care to get into. Tacking a bunch of conspiracies together in an effort to discredit other potential ones when they're all totally unrelated does nothing to detract from my argument. All that it shows is that you haven't actually seriously researched any of those conspiracies, and discredit anything that isn't authenticated by the mainstream media.

#344 platypus

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 05:39 PM

I'm not going to rule out that we have some mild effect on the climate, but to suggest that after approx. 200 years of us putting CO2 emissions into our environment that we are causing such a drastic change to the environment after our planet has been around for millions of years...that's a bit egotistical.

Hmm, isn't it egoistical to not to believe the science because you've decided a priori that humanity cannot have an effect? As a matter of fact atmospheric pollution is these days routinely measured from space and one can clearly see the effect of weekends, closing down of powerplants, the rapid industrialisation of China etc.

The Peak Oil conspiracy is BS, we have virtually unlimited oil. Ask the Russians about that one.

I'm not sure about that as the world supply hasn't really grown in years despite record prices. That discussion would belong to another thread though.

I'm not suggesting a conspiracy at the level that you're speaking of. I do see a lot of evidence at the government level and above, however, to push global warming down people's throats with biased research. The research has a trickle-down effect and because it came from "credible" sources, is taken as gospel by researches and scientists underneath. Plant the research in well-known journals and magazines, and you engineer your own phenomena.

It's simply not believeable that all the scientific organisations in the world have been bought somehow. Scientists have suspected for decades that we're affecting the climate and more and more evidence corroborating that view is coming out daily. As you saw from the list, the acceptance of AGW is very widespread in science.

The mavericks are the scientists that sacrifice their reputation to say "You know what, no, this isn't right...there's something fishy going on here." rather than just licking their finger, pointing it up in the air, and going with whatever way the wind is blowing.

Those people are needed, it's just that they are not necessarily right.

As for the moon, I believe that we've been there, though not necessarily when we originally purported it. I've seen some superb, literal "smoking gun" analyses to prove that.

Strange that nobody of the tens of thousands of people involved in the Apollo-conspiracy has't revealed the conspiracy yet.

#345 biknut

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 05:57 AM

Weather Channel Founder Blasts Network; Claims It Is 'Telling Us What to Think'

TWC founder and global warming skeptic advocates suing Al Gore to expose 'the fraud of global warming.'


By Jeff Poor
Business & Media Institute
3/3/2008 6:11:04 PM

The Weather Channel has lost its way, according to John Coleman, who founded the channel in 1982.

Coleman told an audience at the 2008 International Conference on Climate Change on March 3 in New York that he is highly critical of global warming alarmism.

“The Weather Channel had great promise, and that’s all gone now because they’ve made every mistake in the book on what they’ve done and how they’ve done it and it’s very sad,” Coleman said. “It’s now for sale and there’s a new owner of The Weather Channel will be announced – several billion dollars having changed hands in the near future. Let’s hope the new owners can recapture the vision and stop reporting the traffic, telling us what to think and start giving us useful weather information.”

The Weather Channel has been an outlet for global warming alarmism. In December 2006, The Weather Channel’s Heidi Cullen argued on her blog that weathercasters who had doubts about human influence on global warming should be punished with decertification by the American Meteorological Society.

Coleman also told the audience his strategy for exposing what he called “the fraud of global warming.” He advocated suing those who sell carbon credits, which would force global warming alarmists to give a more honest account of the policies they propose.

“[I] have a feeling this is the opening,” Coleman said. “If the lawyers will take the case – sue the people who sell carbon credits. That includes Al Gore. That lawsuit would get so much publicity, so much media attention. And as the experts went to the media stand to testify, I feel like that could become the vehicle to finally put some light on the fraud of global warming.”

Earlier at the conference Lord Christopher Monckton, a policy adviser to former Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, told an audience that the science will eventually prevail and the “scare” of global warming will go away. He also said the courts were a good avenue to show the science.

http://www.businessa...0303175301.aspx

#346 resveratrol

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 06:39 PM

The issue is highly polarized and there are propagandists on both sides. Al "the debate is over" Gore is certainly not helping the AGW proponents. In science the debate is never over, there are only degrees of confidence.

Some scientists who have proposed alternative theories have had their lives threatened and they are under constant unwarranted public ridicule even before any critical review of their theories. Talk about forcing a single theory onto the public!

If AGW proponents want to increase the accuracy of their models they should quantify the effects of land use/surface changes, increased irrigation, increased/decreased irradiance, increased/decreased cosmic radiation, increased/decreased cloudcover, etc... not just dismiss every thing outside of AGW as heretical musings of idiots.


Amen. I for one find that those times when everyone is encouraging the public to panic are the times it's best not to run with the crowd. I can't be expected to accept that man-made global warming requires the kind of drastic and expensive action its proponents claim if Al Gore isn't even willing to accept Lord Monckton's offer to debate.

#347 resveratrol

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Posted 04 March 2008 - 06:47 PM

The thing of it is, I cannot see any rational explanation why someone would foist global warming on us, at such great expense an with such effort. Noting is to be gained.


There's plenty to be gained. It's a political movement, and political movements gain whenever they gain adherents. It makes life easier for researchers as well; scientists are increasingly finding it's far easier for them to get grants when they add "... in the context of of global warming" to their research on cockroach populations in Alabama than it is otherwise. Thus, more global warming "research" is done, the GW movement claims more adherents, and the cycle perpetuates.

Politically, many aspects of the global warming movement are also tied to leftist causes, and it's not hard to see why.

I'm not taking one side or the other with respect to whether GW is valid (I'm waiting for more evidence and better theories), nor am I saying that all global warming research is bogus. But the agenda there is as clear as day.

#348 mattbrowne

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Posted 08 March 2008 - 02:14 PM

To me the real question is why so many people prefer to remain in a state of denial over global warming? During various discussions I found this quite useful:

Have you ever been in a situation where you're talking with friends and the conversation turns to global warming? It's hard to be an expert. Sometimes it's hard to even show the slightest bit of concern without being met with with skepticism.

Compiled here are some of the most commonly heard myths explained.

"The current warming cycle is natural; the earth has been warming and cooling for millions of years."
What we are experiencing today is not natural. It's true the earth goes through long cycles of warm and cold periods due to small variations in the planet's tilt and rotation. But science tells us the climate change we are experiencing does not fit the planetary cycle. We are beyond anything the planetary cycle would account for.

"A temperature rise of 1 degree is inconsequential, and the predicted rise of 2-3 degrees is barely anything."
Actually 1 degree C (1.7 F) of average temperature increase already is causing sea level to rise and ecosystems to shift. And, temperatures are rising faster at the poles, with more severe consequences such as the rapid melting of polar ice caps. A degree or two more will only make these impacts worse.

"Humans are only responsible for a small amount of the carbon dioxide that goes into the atmosphere each year, so the warming must be natural."
Human activity is releasing carbon that has been trapped in the ground for millions of years and is upsetting the balance of the Carbon Cycle. Unlike when the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock, today people annually release 7 gigatons of CO2, largely a result of burning fossil fuels, which has increased the CO2 in the atmosphere by 37% in 200 years.

"The warming we have seen is due mostly to the sun."
For the last 30 years, while the earth's temperature has been rapidly rising, the sun has shown no trend of increased solar radiation. There simply isn't any reliable study showing the sun's intensity has increased, causing the climate to warm.

"We cannot even accurately predict the weather a week from now, how can we believe we can predict what will happen 50 years from today?"
”Weather" and "climate" are very different terms. A weather prediction is a short term outlook of an hour, a day or perhaps a week. Predicting weather is often challenging because temperature, precipitation and other factors are constantly changing. Analysis of the climate, however, involves studying weather patterns over months, seasons, decades, or even centuries. Long-term climate analysis helps determine activities such as what crops to plant for a given region and when to harvest them. Future climate projections are based on historical data.

"Scientists only have 145 years of temperature data; this is not enough long enough to draw accurate conclusions."
More information on past conditions exists than modern human measurements. Humans have been tracking direct temperature measurements for the last 145 years with the use of thermometers and satellites. Scientists are also able to measure past temperatures going back many thousands of years with a high degree of accuracy from ice core and ocean floor samples.

"Ice is building up in central Antarctica, so global warming is not happening."
Ice is building up in central Antarctica, but being lost on the edges and being lost very rapidly in Greenland. The loss of ice from Greenland has doubled in the past 10 years, and Antarctic glaciers have been retreating over the past half century. There are some reports of "Antarctic cooling," but cooling in one region does not change the fact that globally, temperatures are rising.

"In the 1970s scientists were predicting a coming ice age. Now they turn around and say the globe is warming."
Unfortunately, this myth is a product of the popular press in the 1970s misinterpreting scientific findings. There was no widespread belief among scientists at the time that we were entering a period of cooling.

"During the 1940s and 1950s the earth's temperature went down, even while CO2 rose. Therefore, CO2 is not connected to global warming."
The scientific community now understands that air pollution (dust, smoke, chemicals) was masking the impact of increased greenhouse gases. Also, the amount of increased CO2 was much less as recently as three or four decades ago.

"The U.S. is actually a net sink (or absorber) of CO2."
The U.S. emits one-third of all CO2 today. A small amount is absorbed by soil annually, but it does not offset the release from burning fossil fuels.

"The 'hockey stick' graph, which is the basis for the claim of global warming, is proven to be flawed."
Scientists have used thousands of independent pieces of evidence gathered over decades to determine that global warming is primarily a result of human activities. So it is wholly false to argue that one graph is the basis for global warming. The "hockey stick" controversy is a complicated issue revolving around statistics and modeling techniques.

From http://targetglobalw....org/mythbuster

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#349 biknut

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 05:43 AM

NOAA: Coolest Winter Since 2001 for U.S., Globe

March 13, 2008

The average temperature across both the contiguous U.S. and the globe during climatological winter (December 2007-February 2008) was the coolest since 2001, according to scientists at NOAA’s National Climatic Data Center in Asheville, N.C. In terms of winter precipitation, Pacific storms, bringing heavy precipitation to large parts of the West, produced high snowpack that will provide welcome runoff this spring.

A complete analysis is available online.

U.S. Winter Temperature Highlights

In the contiguous United States, the average winter temperature was 33.2°F (0.6°C), which was 0.2°F (0.1°C) above the 20th century average – yet still ranks as the coolest since 2001. It was the 54th coolest winter since national records began in 1895.
Winter temperatures were warmer than average from Texas to the Southeast and along the Eastern Seaboard, while cooler-than-average temperatures stretched from much of the upper Midwest to the West Coast.
With higher-than-average temperatures in the Northeast and South, the contiguous U.S. winter temperature-related energy demand was approximately 1.7 percent lower than average, based on NOAA’s Residential Energy Demand Temperature Index.

http://www.noaanews....13_coolest.html

#350 struct

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 11:59 AM

It doesn't really matter when the warming went away. All that matters is it's gone now


The warming didn't just disappeared.
Some of the heat went deeper into the ocean leaving some room for fresh cool water on the surface which cooled the air a little bit. But this slight cooling driven by the rapid melting of mainly Arctic/Antarctic regions is very temporary. Within weeks, I think, the Northern Hemisphere is going to heat up again (you know, winter's almost gone and so is your global cooling).


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#351 biknut

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 02:57 PM

Climate panel on the hot seat

By H. Sterling Burnett
March 14, 2008

More than 20 years ago, climate scientists began to raise alarms over the possibility global temperatures were rising due to human activities, such as deforestation and the burning of fossil fuels.

To better understand this potential threat, the World Meteorological Organization and the United Nations created the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) in 1988 to provide a "comprehensive, objective, scientific, technical and socioeconomic assessment of human-caused climate change, its potential impacts and options for adaptation and mitigation."

IPCC reports have predicted average world temperatures will increase dramatically, leading to the spread of tropical diseases, severe drought, the rapid melting of the world's glaciers and ice caps, and rising sea levels. However, several assessments of the IPCC's work have shown the techniques and methods used to derive its climate predictions are fundamentally flawed.

In a 2001 report, the IPCC published an image commonly referred to as the "hockey stick." This graph showed relatively stable temperatures from A.D. 1000 to 1900, with temperatures rising steeply from 1900 to 2000. The IPCC and public figures, such as former Vice President Al Gore, have used the hockey stick to support the conclusion that human energy use over the last 100 years has caused unprecedented rise global warming.

However, several studies cast doubt on the accuracy of the hockey stick, and in 2006 Congress requested an independent analysis of it. A panel of statisticians chaired by Edward J. Wegman, of George Mason University, found significant problems with the methods of statistical analysis used by the researchers and with the IPCC's peer review process. For example, the researchers who created the hockey stick used the wrong time scale to establish the mean temperature to compare with recorded temperatures of the last century. Because the mean temperature was low, the recent temperature rise seemed unusual and dramatic. This error was not discovered in part because statisticians were never consulted.

Furthermore, the community of specialists in ancient climates from which the peer reviewers were drawn was small and many of them had ties to the original authors — 43 paleoclimatologists had previously coauthored papers with the lead researcher who constructed the hockey stick.

These problems led Mr. Wegman's team to conclude that the idea that the planet is experiencing unprecedented global warming "cannot be supported."

The IPCC published its Fourth Assessment Report in 2007 predicting global warming will lead to widespread catastrophe if not mitigated, yet failed to provide the most basic requirement for effective climate policy: accurate temperature statistics. A number of weaknesses in the measurements include the fact temperatures aren't recorded from large areas of the Earth's surface and many weather stations once in undeveloped areas are now surrounded by buildings, parking lots and other heat-trapping structures resulting in an urban-heat-island effect.

Even using accurate temperature data, sound forecasting methods are required to predict climate change. Over time, forecasting researchers have compiled 140 principles that can be applied to a broad range of disciplines, including science, sociology, economics and politics.

In a recent NCPA study, Kesten Green and J. Scott Armstrong used these principles to audit the climate forecasts in the Fourth Assessment Report. Messrs. Green and Armstrong found the IPCC clearly violated 60 of the 127 principles relevant in assessing the IPCC predictions. Indeed, it could only be clearly established that the IPCC followed 17 of the more than 127 forecasting principles critical to making sound predictions.

A good example of a principle clearly violated is "Make sure forecasts are independent of politics." Politics shapes the IPCC from beginning to end. Legislators, policymakers and/or diplomatic appointees select (or approve) the scientists — at least the lead scientists — who make up the IPCC. In addition, the summary and the final draft of the IPCC's Fourth Assessment Report was written in collaboration with political appointees and subject to their approval.

Sadly, Mr. Green and Mr. Armstrong found no evidence the IPCC was even aware of the vast literature on scientific forecasting methods, much less applied the principles.

The IPCC and its defenders often argue that critics who are not climate scientists are unqualified to judge the validity of their work. However, climate predictions rely on methods, data and evidence from other fields of expertise, including statistical analysis and forecasting. Thus, the work of the IPCC is open to analysis and criticism from other disciplines.

The IPCC's policy recommendations are based on flawed statistical analyses and procedures that violate general forecasting principles. Policymakers should take this into account before enacting laws to counter global warming — which economists point out would have severe economic consequences.

H. Sterling Burnett is a senior fellow with the National Center for Policy Analysis, a nonpartisan, nonprofit research institute in Dallas.

http://www.washingto...95001/home.html

#352 biknut

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Posted 22 March 2008 - 02:30 PM

I said it first. Told you so.


Climate facts to warm to

Christopher Pearson | March 22, 2008

CATASTROPHIC predictions of global warming usually conjure with the notion of a tipping point, a point of no return.

Last Monday - on ABC Radio National, of all places - there was a tipping point of a different kind in the debate on climate change. It was a remarkable interview involving the co-host of Counterpoint, Michael Duffy and Jennifer Marohasy, a biologist and senior fellow of Melbourne-based think tank the Institute of Public Affairs. Anyone in public life who takes a position on the greenhouse gas hypothesis will ignore it at their peril.
Duffy asked Marohasy: "Is the Earth still warming?"

She replied: "No, actually, there has been cooling, if you take 1998 as your point of reference. If you take 2002 as your point of reference, then temperatures have plateaued. This is certainly not what you'd expect if carbon dioxide is driving temperature because carbon dioxide levels have been increasing but temperatures have actually been coming down over the last 10 years."

Duffy: "Is this a matter of any controversy?"

Marohasy: "Actually, no. The head of the IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change) has actually acknowledged it. He talks about the apparent plateau in temperatures so far this century. So he recognises that in this century, over the past eight years, temperatures have plateaued ... This is not what you'd expect, as I said, because if carbon dioxide is driving temperature then you'd expect that, given carbon dioxide levels have been continuing to increase, temperatures should be going up ... So (it's) very unexpected, not something that's being discussed. It should be being discussed, though, because it's very significant."

Duffy: "It's not only that it's not discussed. We never hear it, do we? Whenever there's any sort of weather event that can be linked into the global warming orthodoxy, it's put on the front page. But a fact like that, which is that global warming stopped a decade ago, is virtually never reported, which is extraordinary."

Duffy then turned to the question of how the proponents of the greenhouse gas hypothesis deal with data that doesn't support their case. "People like Kevin Rudd and Ross Garnaut are speaking as though the Earth is still warming at an alarming rate, but what is the argument from the other side? What would people associated with the IPCC say to explain the (temperature) dip?"

Marohasy: "Well, the head of the IPCC has suggested natural factors are compensating for the increasing carbon dioxide levels and I guess, to some extent, that's what sceptics have been saying for some time: that, yes, carbon dioxide will give you some warming but there are a whole lot of other factors that may compensate or that may augment the warming from elevated levels of carbon dioxide.

"There's been a lot of talk about the impact of the sun and that maybe we're going to go through or are entering a period of less intense solar activity and this could be contributing to the current cooling."

Duffy: "Can you tell us about NASA's Aqua satellite, because I understand some of the data we're now getting is quite important in our understanding of how climate works?"

Marohasy: "That's right. The satellite was only launched in 2002 and it enabled the collection of data, not just on temperature but also on cloud formation and water vapour. What all the climate models suggest is that, when you've got warming from additional carbon dioxide, this will result in increased water vapour, so you're going to get a positive feedback. That's what the models have been indicating. What this great data from the NASA Aqua satellite ... (is) actually showing is just the opposite, that with a little bit of warming, weather processes are compensating, so they're actually limiting the greenhouse effect and you're getting a negative rather than a positive feedback."

Duffy: "The climate is actually, in one way anyway, more robust than was assumed in the climate models?"

Marohasy: "That's right ... These findings actually aren't being disputed by the meteorological community. They're having trouble digesting the findings, they're acknowledging the findings, they're acknowledging that the data from NASA's Aqua satellite is not how the models predict, and I think they're about to recognise that the models really do need to be overhauled and that when they are overhauled they will probably show greatly reduced future warming projected as a consequence of carbon dioxide."

Duffy: "From what you're saying, it sounds like the implications of this could beconsiderable ..."

Marohasy: "That's right, very much so. The policy implications are enormous. The meteorological community at the moment is really just coming to terms with the output from this NASA Aqua satellite and (climate scientist) Roy Spencer's interpretation of them. His work is published, his work is accepted, but I think people are still in shock at this point."

If Marohasy is anywhere near right about the impending collapse of the global warming paradigm, life will suddenly become a whole lot more interesting.

A great many founts of authority, from the Royal Society to the UN, most heads of government along with countless captains of industry, learned professors, commentators and journalists will be profoundly embarrassed. Let us hope it is a prolonged and chastening experience.

With catastrophe off the agenda, for most people the fog of millennial gloom will lift, at least until attention turns to the prospect of the next ice age. Among the better educated, the sceptical cast of mind that is the basis of empiricism will once again be back in fashion. The delusion that by recycling and catching public transport we can help save the planet will quickly come to be seen for the childish nonsense it was all along.

The poorest Indians and Chinese will be left in peace to work their way towards prosperity, without being badgered about the size of their carbon footprint, a concept that for most of us will soon be one with Nineveh and Tyre, clean forgotten in six months.

The scores of town planners in Australia building empires out of regulating what can and can't be built on low-lying shorelines will have to come to terms with the fact inundation no longer impends and find something more plausible to do. The same is true of the bureaucrats planning to accommodate "climate refugees".

Penny Wong's climate mega-portfolio will suddenly be as ephemeral as the ministries for the year 2000 that state governments used to entrust to junior ministers. Malcolm Turnbull will have to reinvent himself at vast speed as a climate change sceptic and the Prime Minister will have to kiss goodbye what he likes to call the great moral issue and policy challenge of our times.

It will all be vastly entertaining to watch.

THE Age published an essay with an environmental theme by Ian McEwan on March 8 and its stablemate, The Sydney Morning Herald, also carried a slightly longer version of the same piece.

The Australian's Cut & Paste column two days later reproduced a telling paragraph from the Herald's version, which suggested that McEwan was a climate change sceptic and which The Age had excised. He was expanding on the proposition that "we need not only reliable data but their expression in the rigorous use of statistics".

What The Age decided to spare its readers was the following: "Well-meaning intellectual movements, from communism to post-structuralism, have a poor history of absorbing inconvenient fact or challenges to fundamental precepts. We should not ignore or suppress good indicators on the environment, though they have become extremely rare now. It is tempting to the layman to embrace with enthusiasm the latest bleak scenario because it fits the darkness of our soul, the prevailing cultural pessimism. The imagination, as Wallace Stevens once said, is always at the end of an era. But we should be asking, or expecting others to ask, for the provenance of the data, the assumptions fed into the computer model, the response of the peer review community, and so on. Pessimism is intellectually delicious, even thrilling, but the matter before us is too serious for mere self-pleasuring. It would be self-defeating if the environmental movement degenerated into a religion of gloomy faith. (Faith, ungrounded certainty, is no virtue.)"

The missing sentences do not appear anywhere else in The Age's version of the essay. The attribution reads: "Copyright Ian McEwan 2008" and there is no acknowledgment of editing by The Age.

Why did the paper decide to offer its readers McEwan lite? Was he, I wonder, consulted on the matter? And isn't there a nice irony that The Age chose to delete the line about ideologues not being very good at "absorbing inconvenient fact"?

http://www.theaustra...99-7583,00.html

Edited by biknut, 22 March 2008 - 02:34 PM.


#353 struct

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 04:34 AM

See figure below and compare it with the one that I posted above on March 14.
What do you see!?

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#354 biknut

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 03:49 PM

These guys are really getting desperate. They keep coming trying to come up one excuse after another the explain our current global cooling. Now they're saying La Nina is to blame for this years cooling. Last year was a different excuse. Nobody is pointing out that this years La Nina is a really week one expected to be over with by summer. Normally in La Nina years, Texas is hot and dry, but so far this year we've had a lot of rain, and temperatures are normal or less than.

2008: The year the world will cool down

Last updated at 15:07pm on 7th April 2008

The world will experience global cooling this year, according a leading climate scientist.

The head of the World Meteorological Organisation said La Nina - the weather phenomenon which is cooling the Pacific - is likely to trigger a small drop in average global temperatures compared with last year.

The prediction - which follows a bitterly cold winter in China and the Arctic - is prompting some sceptics to question the theory of climate change.

However, the World Meteorological Organisation insists that this year's cooling has nothing to do with global climate change.

In fact, this year's temperatures could still be way above the average - and it is possible that 2008 will exceed the record year of 1998 because of global warming induced by greenhouse gases.

La Nina is Spanish for "The Girl" and describes a cooling of the central and eastern Pacific.

It typically lasts for 12 months. In recent months it caused one of the coldest winters in memory in China, and brought torrential rains to Australia.

While La Nina can affect weather around the world, it is usually less of an influence than El Nino (The Boy). In an El Nino year, the Pacific warms up.

Michel Jarraud, the World Meteorological Organisation's secretary general, said La Nina was expected to continue into the summer, depressing global temperatures by a fraction of a degree.

But he said temperatures in 2008 would still be well above average for the last 100 years.

The Met Office predicts that 2008 will be around 0.4C warmer than the average for 1961-1990.

It said temperatures are influenced by a range of variables - including changes in the sun's output, pollution and weather cycles such as La Nina.

But most scientists argue that the long-term temperature rises since 1880 can only be explained by carbon dioxide from human activity.

http://www.dailymail...in_page_id=1770

#355 bgwowk

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 05:34 PM

It said temperatures are influenced by a range of variables - including changes in the sun's output, pollution and weather cycles such as La Nina.

No kidding. Never before in the history of science has a group of scientists so completely convinced policy makers of impending cataclysm, and the need for trillion-dollar sacrifices to combat it. It has been done based on assumptions and models so complex that only specialists can properly understand them. If global warming does not unfold this century as climatologists have predicted, I fear for the future credibility of scientists generally on major issues.

#356 biknut

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 07:29 PM

Now ABC says Gore's a lier.


Gore Used Fictional Video to Illustrate ‘Inconvenient Truth’

By Noel Sheppard | April 22, 2008 - 09:53 ET

It goes without saying that climate realists around the world believe Nobel Laureate Al Gore used false information throughout his schlockumentary "An Inconvenient Truth" in order to generate global warming hysteria.

On Friday, it was revealed by ABC News that one of the famous shots of supposed Antarctic ice shelves in the film was actually a computer-generated image from the 2004 science fiction blockbuster "The Day After Tomorrow." [audio available here]

Adding delicious insult to injury, this was presented by one of ABC's foremost global warming alarmists Sam Champion during Friday's "20/20":

Read more here;

http://newsbusters.o...onvenient-truth

#357 biknut

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 03:26 PM

I was first on this forum to predict cooling. Now the scientists are backing me up, but they don't want to.

Now that the global warming alarmist's predictions of record warming have failed for the last 10 years they're really becoming desperate. After last years prediction of record temperatures turned out a huge flop, again, they decided to save a little face by declaring this year would cool because of a really weak ass La Nina.

Not they're trying to convince us that because of a natural phenomenon the planet will cool possibly for the next 15 years. What a load of bull shit. It's really funny how they can dream up reasons why the climate can cool naturally, but any warming has to be man made. And of course they just figured this out. By the time this round of cooling is over they'll probably find another reason for more natural cooling.

This article is the biggest load of crap since the first one that said we have man made global warming in the first place.

Global warming may 'stop', scientists predict

By Charles Clover, Environment Editor
Last Updated: 6:01pm BST 30/04/2008

Researchers studying long-term changes in sea temperatures said they now expect a "lull" for up to a decade while natural variations in climate cancel out the increases caused by man-made greenhouse gas emissions.

The average temperature of the sea around Europe and North America is expected to cool slightly over the decade while the tropical Pacific remains unchanged.

This would mean that the 0.3°C global average temperature rise which has been predicted for the next decade by the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change may not happen, according to the paper published in the scientific journal Nature.

However, the effect of rising fossil fuel emissions will mean that warming will accelerate again after 2015 when natural trends in the oceans veer back towards warming, according to the computer model.

Noel Keenlyside of the Leibniz Institute of Marine Sciences, Kiel, Germany, said: "The IPCC would predict a 0.3°C warming over the next decade. Our prediction is that there will be no warming until 2015 but it will pick up after that."

He stressed that the results were just the initial findings from a new computer model of how the oceans behave over decades and it would be wholly misleading to infer that global warming, in the sense of the enhanced greenhouse effect from increased carbon emissions, had gone away.

The IPCC currently does not include in its models actual records of such events as the strength of the Gulf Stream and the El Nino cyclical warming event in the Pacific, which are known to have been behind the warmest year ever recorded in 1998.

Today's paper in Nature tries to simulate the variability of these events and longer cycles, such as the giant ocean "conveyor belt" known as the meridional overturning circulation (MOC), which brings warm water north into the North East Atlantic.

This has a 70 to 80-year cycle and when the circulation is strong, it creates warmer temperatures in Europe. When it is weak, as it will be over the next decade, temperatures fall. Scientists think that variations of this kind could partly explain the cooling of global average temperatures between the 1940s and 1970s after which temperatures rose again.

Global warming forecast predicts rise in 2014
Writing in Nature, the scientists said: "Our results suggest that global surface temperature may not increase over the next decade, as natural climate variations in the North Atlantic and tropical Pacific temporarily offset the projected anthropogenic [manmade] warming."

The study shows a more pronounced weakening effect than the Met Office's Hadley Centre, which last year predicted that global warming would slow until 2009 and pick up after that, with half the years after 2009 being warmer than the warmest year on record, 1998.

Commenting on the new study, Richard Wood of the Hadley Centre said the model suggested the weakening of the MOC would have a cooling effect around the North Atlantic.

"Such a cooling could temporarily offset the longer-term warming trend from increasing levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.

"That emphasises once again the need to consider climate variability and climate change together when making predictions over timescales of decades."

But he said the use of just sea surface temperatures might not accurately reflect the state of the MOC, which was several miles deep and dependent on factors besides temperatures, such as salt content, which were included in the Met Office Hadley Centre model.

If the model could accurately forecast other variables besides temperature, such as rainfall, it would be increasingly useful, but climate predictions for a decade ahead would always be to some extent uncertain, he added.

http://www.telegraph...aclimate130.xml

#358 Mind

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 05:06 PM

Well, it wasn't really a "weak-ass" La Nina. It was moderate, bordering on strong. Here is a chart of El Nino and La Nina episodes from 1950 to present. Red is El nino conditions, blue=La Nina.

One thing I noticed in this sciencedaily article about the same research is that their graph stops at 2000. Since 2000, of course, there has been a slight cooling. Why not include the last 8 years? To a skeptic, it would seem to be a subtle manipulation.

In any case, this is just one research paper. The plain fact is that long term climate prediction is a dicey affair. The models are not good enough yet to say with great confidence what will happen 100 years from now. Not only that, the inputs are highly variably as well. While the IPCC expects increasing fossil fuel usage from now until 2100, most people here on this board would be highly surprised if the majority of people are even driving gasoline cars by 2025.

#359 VictorBjoerk

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 09:59 PM

Well this year has probably been one of the warmest ever where I live as far as I remember...

#360 biknut

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 04:43 PM

Well, it wasn't really a "weak-ass" La Nina. It was moderate, bordering on strong. Here is a chart of El Nino and La Nina episodes from 1950 to present. Red is El nino conditions, blue=La Nina.

One thing I noticed in this sciencedaily article about the same research is that their graph stops at 2000. Since 2000, of course, there has been a slight cooling. Why not include the last 8 years? To a skeptic, it would seem to be a subtle manipulation.

In any case, this is just one research paper. The plain fact is that long term climate prediction is a dicey affair. The models are not good enough yet to say with great confidence what will happen 100 years from now. Not only that, the inputs are highly variably as well. While the IPCC expects increasing fossil fuel usage from now until 2100, most people here on this board would be highly surprised if the majority of people are even driving gasoline cars by 2025.


Well, I still say that blaming this years cooling on the La Nina is just another lame excuse to try to justify the position that we still have man made global warming. The alarmists are obviously coming to the conclusion that we're not going to be setting any more records for a long time, and now have to start coming up with really contrived explanations to convince the world why we still should believe in man made global warming.

It's very telling that they can come up with reasons for natural cooling, but they can't seem to think of one reason for natural warming. All warming has to be man made.

It's getting harder and harder to explain when every year there's no additional warming, and in fact cooling. The warming stopped at exactly the right point based on the historic averages for the last few hundred years. If it was really like the alarmists claim then the last decade would have trended up not down. It's hard to argue with reality, that's the reason for the desperate explanations. Now they're trying to hedge their bets by saying it'll be another decade before it starts warming.

If it's warm it's because of global warming, if it's cold it's because of global warming, if it snows too much it's because of global warming, if it rains too much it's because of global warming, if it doesn't rain enough, it's because of global warming, if anything happens at all, it's because of global warming. I can't believe how many sheep that are falling for this.

News flash, cows farts are causing global warming. hahahahahahahha gezzz




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