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Atheist Alliance Conference


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#121

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Posted 28 June 2007 - 07:54 AM

> Ah, but you have forgotten the rules of the game my friend!

No, I was actually playing by their rules.

> Until such an elaboration is provided your position is devoid of information content.

It was Richard who made the claim that souls do not exist. Such a claim is clearly scientifically unsupportable (and thus necessarily faith-based) due to the absence of a scientifically workable definition of the soul which can be applied to devise experiments possessing the potential to falsify said phenomenon. I am a bit surprised it took someone this long to point this out. Thanks!

> Not quite. wink.gif *Possibilities* must themselves be assigned *probabilities* based on their relationship to current established theory.

The probability that any given theory is correct (or correct up to some small specified error) is either 0 or 1 unless the laws of the universe are fluctuating as some spatial-temporal random process. I suspect you mean plausibility. This is a measure that is assigned by human beings (e.g. individual scientists or the scientific community.) Although it is a reasonable manner to direct research efforts and resources, it is not the final arbiter of truth (e.g. there was a time that quantum physics would have seemed very implausible.)

#122 DJS

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Posted 28 June 2007 - 08:04 AM

This is not a matter of science, but of logic. There is a distinction.

With metaphysical postulates such as *God* and *soul*, the inevitable fall back position to my rationalist challenge is that the terms in question transcend the bounds of logic. This is fine for a minimalist position of personal belief since all subjective deliberations are ultimately without justification. However to make objective assertions about *possibility* without providing a means for intersubjective concensus is unacceptable.

I thus continue to maintain the position that terms which have not been sufficiently defined do not "exist" in an objective sense.

#123 DJS

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Posted 28 June 2007 - 08:14 AM

It was Richard who made the claim that souls do not exist. Such a claim is clearly scientifically unsupportable (and thus necessarily faith-based) due to the absence of a scientifically workable definition of the soul which can be applied to devise experiments possessing the potential to falsify said phenomenon. I am a bit surprised it took someone this long to point this out. Thanks!


I think you are missing my point to a certain extent. Claiming a possibility is still a claim. Again, this has nothing to do with science or falsification. Any claim of possibility must be framed in a logically coherent manner (think deduction versus induction). What others have been arguing for in this thread is quite irrelevant to me. I am making a contention regarding your particular statements. Your argument never left the ground because you started off with the operating assumption that the concept of *soul* possesses intrinsic meaning.


Edit by Live Forever: fixing the quote

Edited by Technosophy, 28 June 2007 - 07:05 PM.


#124

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Posted 28 June 2007 - 08:52 AM

> Any claim of possibility must be framed in a logically coherent manner (think deduction versus induction).

It is possible that at some point in the future someone will make a scientifically workable definition of the concept of the soul, and this concept will be verified by experimentation. On the other hand, it is clearly impossible that anyone will ever disprove all possible definitions of the concept of the soul.

> Your argument never left the ground because you started off with the operating assumption that the concept of *soul* possesses intrinsic meaning.

What is the meaning of the color red to a blind person? Perhaps the soul does have intrinsic meaning to some very small fraction of humanity who are able to directly experience it.

Edited by Technosophy, 28 June 2007 - 07:05 PM.


#125 DJS

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 02:41 AM

It is possible that at some point in the future someone will make a scientifically workable definition of the concept of the soul, and this concept will be verified by experimentation.


If it is possible, could you speculate on a method which would make it a possibility? If not, then what justification do you have for claiming the possibility?

On the other hand, it is clearly impossible that anyone will ever disprove all possible definitions of the concept of the soul.



Again, there is no need to disprove "all possible definitions". Possibilities only exist as possibilities once they have been clearly defined. Claiming "possible possibilities" is nonsensical.

What is the meaning of the color red to a blind person? Perhaps the soul does have intrinsic meaning to some very small fraction of humanity who are able to directly experience it.


Particular instantiations of phenomenal experience lack substantive meaning (what exactly does the color red mean to you?). The only conceptualization that avails itself to us is the nearly universal presence of the common sense intuition regarding the basic existence of phenomenal experience as a condition of subjectivity (Nagel’s “what it is like”). Interpretations will vary, but once the subjectivist intuition is personally embraced, making the corresponding inference of ubiquitous phenomenal experience is inescapable.

So, based on the above line of reasoning…despite a person being blind, the fact remains that s/he still represents a subjective perspective with the common sense intuition of phenomenal experience. The exact same inference would then follow. This person would have no valid reason to doubt the likelihood of a phenomenal state existing which corresponds to a properly functioning human eye perceiving 650 nm wave length EM radiation – just as s/he would have no reason to doubt that “it is like something” to be a bat with echo location.

Please note that nothing I have stated so far has anything to do with empiricism or the scientific method. I am making the logical inference of correspondence, or “supervenience”, based on my interpretation of my own subjectivity (which, as I’m sure you’re aware, is beyond the purview of science). However what I can verify, through the methods of science, is the physical states which correspond with experience and have measurable effects. Blind individuals may not have the experiential knowledge of “the redness of red”, but this doesn’t prevent them from confirming a seeing individual’s capacity to detect 650 nm wave length light and making the corresponding inference. In contrast, when individuals claim beliefs which have no observational effects I am under no obligation to agree that their beliefs are veridical, or even logically coherent. I’m only obliged to take seriously the fact that these individuals believe something. From that point it becomes an exercise in problem solving.

#126 Live Forever

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 03:13 AM

All this talk about souls. I saw this NYTimes article yesterday entitled "Science of the Soul? ‘I Think, Therefore I Am’ Is Losing Force":
http://www.nytimes.c...nce&oref=slogin

#127

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 04:33 AM

> If it is possible, could you speculate on a method which would make it a possibility? If not, then what justification do you have for claiming the possibility?

I can define the soul to be the particular mouse that my wife claims scurries through the halls of our house at night. I can then formulate some procedures to determine whether or not the hypothesized soul exists (e.g. a mousetrap.) You may not find my definition of soul to be satisfactory for various reasons, but it seems sufficient to illustrate the possibility of the scenario I described.

#128 DJS

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 04:51 AM

No, sorry ludon, but you're confused.

The scenario you've put forward would in no way supply a definition of *the soul*, but would rather be a relabeling of a small prolific land mammal. You've fallen into a semantics wormhole.

I can rename anything as anything, but this has nothing to do with adequately developing a concept (especially one whose existence is highly controversial). Meaning is a relational property BTW.

#129

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 05:42 AM

> You've fallen into a semantics wormhole.

Ok, in that case I'm crawling out. Thanks anyway for helping me to confirm my career choice of mathematics over philosophy.

#130 Aegist

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 05:52 AM

Mathematics *is* philosophy :)

Edit: More than appropriately too, it is Philosophy of Syntax. So it is only appropriate that you should make such an error on Semantics.

#131

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 06:03 AM

> Mathematics *is* philosophy

Uh ok, then I guess I am a philosopher. :-)

#132 DJS

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 06:16 AM

Well, it was certainly not my intention to discourage pursuing a career in philosophy! Hopefully my contentious nature hasn't rubbed you the wrong way.

Naturally the best course of action is to choose whichever career path holds the most appeal for you.

The probability that any given theory is correct (or correct up to some small specified error) is either 0 or 1 unless the laws of the universe are fluctuating as some spatial-temporal random process. I suspect you mean plausibility. This is a measure that is assigned by human beings (e.g. individual scientists or the scientific community.) Although it is a reasonable manner to direct research efforts and resources, it is not the final arbiter of truth (e.g. there was a time that quantum physics would have seemed very implausible.)


One last point, and then I'll sign off from this dialog...

Probable and plausible are synonymous with each other. Regardless, specific valuations are obviously contingent and a product (actually, a necessary condition) of observer status. In terms of an "objective" reality (which you alluded to), the current verdict in philosophy is that the issue is a confusion and largely irrelevant, except as a construct that can be used for the purposes of orientation.

#133

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 07:33 AM

> Well, it was certainly not my intention to discourage pursuing a career in philosophy! Hopefully my contentious nature hasn't rubbed you the wrong way.

No, not at all. I've been doing math for a long while now, so there's no turning back in any case (not that I would want to.)

> Probable and plausible are synonymous with each other.

Are they? In mathematics they are treated differently. My research area is probability theory, so I know a fair bit about mathematical probability, but I am aware that there are mathematical notions of plausibility and possibility as well. For this reason, these three concepts have distinct meanings in my mind.

I am always curious exactly what people mean when they make statements such as "the probability that Iran will successfully develop a nuclear explosive device in the next 5 years is 70%." One hears this type of statement all the time. What does the number 70% mean? Does it mean anything at all? For me the use of the word probability in this context seems entirely inappropriate, but this could very well be due to the fact that I've had my head buried in math books for far too long.

> Regardless, specific valuations are obviously contingent and a product (actually, a necessary condition) of observer status. In terms of an "objective" reality (which you alluded to), the current verdict in philosophy is that the issue is a confusion and largely irrelevant, except as a construct that can be used for the purposes of orientation.

You lost me there.




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