55 replies to this topic

[william7]

I just watched this ABC news video, at http://cosmos.bcst.y...3276227&lang=en, this morning about UFOs. It reminded me of the book I read about 28 or 29 years ago that suggested that God was behind the numerous UFO sightings throughout history. The author pointed to the experience the Old Testament prophet Ezekiel described in Ezekiel 1:1-28 as support for his belief.

Here's a link to the written version: http://abcnews.go.co...=3349575&page=1

[Lazarus Long]

Chariot of the Gods?

or Stargate?

Why is it so important to see outside intervention?

Afraid of the dark humanity?

Or just afraid to be alone like any child.

If there is life out there or not, if there is a god, one or many; it is irrelevant.

Time to stand up humans and take responsibility for our own actions and stop seeking the protection of fables, fantasies and father figures.

Whether there is life beyond Earth or a duality to existence beyond this one, the time to make decisions based on that option is over.

Elijah why can you not realize it is the dependency on salvation mythology that ultimately rationalizes all evil and justifies all neglect?

[Brainbox]

I believe every human has his or her rational and irrational thoughts and irrational believes. [lol]

[Lazarus Long]

I believe every human has his or her rational and irrational thoughts and irrational believes.

While that may true Brainbox it may not be *necessarily true* but it is also not relevant to the potentially constructive/destructive value of such belief systems once they achieve a memetic character.

BTW, Elijah speaking of pop sci-fi treatises; have you read Childhood's End by Clarke?
http://tal.forum2.org/childhood
http://www.fantastic...s.com/i/utopia/
You may find it interesting given the original observation you posit in this thread.

From Childhood's End

    “No Utopia can ever give satisfaction to everyone, all the time. As their material conditions improve, men raise their sights and become discontented with power and possessions that once would have seemed beyond their wildest dreams. And even when the external world has granted all it can, there still remain the searchings of the mind and the longings of the heart.”

    —Arthur C. Clarke, Childhood’s End

[william7]

Chariot of the Gods?

I think the book was called Chariot of the Gods.

Why is it so important to see outside intervention?

It will make it kinda hard for your atheists to deny that God exists and that the Bible doesn't need careful scrutiny. Has Richard Dawkins said anything about UFOs and whether research in this area is warranted?

If there is life out there or not, if there is a god, one or many; it is irrelevant.

I'm surprised you would say something like this. If there's UFOs or a God out there, it will make all the difference to many when they choose their philosophy of life. Atheists should have a tougher time peddling their ideas in the face of credible UFO sightings and major scientific investigations into the phenomena.

Elijah why can you not realize it is the dependency on salvation mythology that ultimately rationalizes all evil and justifies all neglect?

I don't see it that way. The rationalizations for evil and justifications for neglect come from those false religionists who are misusing the Scriptures. If correctly interpreted, the Bible can be used very successfully as the rationalization for doing good and as the justification for proactivity on a mass scale.

Edited by elijah3, 07 July 2007 - 02:25 PM.

[Brainbox]

While that may true Brainbox it may not be *necessarily true* but it is also not relevant to the potentially constructive/destructive value of such belief systems once they achieve a memetic character.

Agreed.

I believe every human has his or her rational and irrational thoughts and irrational believes.

)

Probably this thought, if it ever would multiply sufficiently, could become a relativating "give alternative opinions some slack" meme. It is my believe that our susceptibility to certain memes is not pure choice, but genetically and socially predisposed. Unfortunately, I did not find any literature about this yet to fine-tune this believe.

[william7]

I believe every human has his or her rational and irrational thoughts and irrational believes.  [lol]

If you think UFOs are irrational and need no further investigation, at least give me some reasons. Did you watch the ABC news video or read the article I posted? ABC has some other videos on this topic. See, for example, this one at, http://abcnews.go.co...ndex?id=3349833.

[Brainbox]

No, I don't think UFO's are irrational. I've never encountered one myself, but that's beside the issue. I'm referring towards the direction of interpretation Lazarus Long pointed to. We do not know what they are. Imagination? Fraud? Extraterrestrial? 99% of UFO's is unknown. So why (irrationally) narrow the issue down to another manifestation of religious metaphors? Lets deal with this nice example of uncertainty with an open mind.

[maestro949]

Elijah3, do you understand the definition of "Unidentified"? Reports of UFO sightings does not mean there is alien life. Alien life may indeed exist but it does nothing to further evidence of a higher power. If there is a higher power, it is behind everything, including UFOs, aliens, etc. If there isn't, it is behind nothing. The possibility of UFOs do not tempt a rational mind towards faith any more than say paradoxes that arise quantum wierdness or other unexplained events that you and your flockmates refer to as miracles.

If correctly interpreted, the Bible can be used very successfully...

That's a lot to ask. You first have to assume that you can accurately interpret the intent from vague texts written by people long dead all the while assuming it's an omnipotent power that channeled these symbolic devices through said dead people.

Apologies, but this is difficult for someone whose mind wasn't immersed in these fairytales during their developmental years.

I know it's part of your mission to plant seeds in peoples' minds here to cast doubt on rational thinking but you'll have to do better than UFOs.

[william7]

BTW, Elijah speaking of pop sci-fi treatises; have you read Childhood's End by Clarke?
http://tal.forum2.org/childhood
http://www.fantastic...s.com/i/utopia/
You may find it interesting given the original observation you posit in this thread.

From Childhood's End

I don't think I read that one. Sounds interesting though. I'll bet you Arthur Clarke was heavily influenced by the Bible and Christians, like Herbert W. Armstrong, who were preaching and teaching back then that Jesus would soon return to earth to set up God's Kingdom, and, that according to Matthew 24:21-22, this intervention would be necessary to prevent man's total annihilation in a nuclear Armageddon.

    “No Utopia can ever give satisfaction to everyone, all the time. As their material conditions improve, men raise their sights and become discontented with power and possessions that once would have seemed beyond their wildest dreams. And even when the external world has granted all it can, there still remain the searchings of the mind and the longings of the heart.”

    —Arthur C. Clarke, Childhood’s End

You must remember this is the thoughts of just one science fiction writer. The Bible promises that men will be content with the Utopia He brings about.

[Brainbox]

I know it's part of your mission to plant seeds in peoples' minds here to cast doubt on rational thinking but you'll have to do better than UFOs.

I need to defend Elijah here (although I don't think he will need that) because this line of thinking shuts down any possibility to find some common ground we all have. For a religious individual, Elijah displays a moderately high level of rationalism and open mindedness, if I could ever be able to judge that objectively. On several occasions he expressed he is against organised religion. He uses the bible as his base of reference and displays some of the dogmatic appraoches that result from that. Ok, big deal. He's pro life extension.

Do you want to exclude him from our world because the religious memes might attack us?

[maestro949]

The Bible promises that men will be content with the Utopia He brings about.

Content? Sounds rather dismal. I'll keep on working on Utopia 1.0 here in this universe and dimension.

[william7]

No, I don't think UFO's are irrational. I've never encountered one myself, but that's beside the issue. I'm referring towards the direction of interpretation Lazarus Long pointed to.  We do not know what they are. Imagination? Fraud? Extraterrestrial? 99% of UFO's is unknown. So why (irrationally) narrow the issue down to another manifestation of religious metaphors? Lets deal with this nice example of uncertainty with an open mind.

Would you agree that science needs to do serious research on the UFO issue as was called for in the ABC News video?

[maestro949]

I need to defend Elijah here

He is not one person.

He's pro life extension.

Only because they believe we're all doomed to armageddon regardless of our pursuits. They are not here to promote or work towards life extension. They are here to save us. The view is that we are all lost souls that need to be saved and that they is doing his savior's work by shepherding us back to the one true path.

Do you want to exclude him from our world because the religious memes might attack us?

Not at all. Any attack on the life extension meme would only fuel it's progress.

I don't want them to leave. They are a daily reminder that fear is the number one non-technical challenge is to overcoming the pain and suffering that accompanies aging.

If there's a common ground for discussion doesn't there needs to be a level playing field to debate? How is this possible when one side is quoting religious texts as factual evidence as to how the future is going to unfold for humanity?

[Brainbox]

No, I don't think UFO's are irrational. I've never encountered one myself, but that's beside the issue. I'm referring towards the direction of interpretation Lazarus Long pointed to.  We do not know what they are. Imagination? Fraud? Extraterrestrial? 99% of UFO's is unknown. So why (irrationally) narrow the issue down to another manifestation of religious metaphors? Lets deal with this nice example of uncertainty with an open mind.

Would you agree that science needs to do serious research on the UFO issue as was called for in the ABC News video?

Hmm, yes, I would not be against it. The scientific research I'm already aware of did debunk a lot or even most evidence of their existence. If I would forced to make a choice between a project like SETI or finding evidence for the existence of Ufos by active search, I would opt for the first, since that addresses the core of the matter.

[william7]

He is not one person.

I would like to know exactly what you mean by he is not one person? Are you suggesting that more than one person is helping me make these posts? I assure you I'm genuinely one person and these views I express are my own. Once in a while, but not that frequently, I ask the people in my Bible study group for some insight into certain Scriptures to aid me in making a post.

[Brainbox]

If there's a common ground for discussion doesn't there needs to be a level playing field to debate?  How is this possible when one side is quoting religious texts as factual evidence as to how the future is going to unfold for humanity?

I agree with where you seem to be comming from. I'm at the same place. However, I do not think that this is productive. Pointing to religious individuals for being infexible is just half of the truth. Religion is here to stay, at least for the next couple of decades, if we like it or not. We should find a productive way to deal with that.

[maestro949]

I would like to know exactly what you mean by he is not one person? Are you suggesting that more than one person is helping me make these posts?

I do not mean you specifically but rather that there are many such as yourself who have obliged themselves to the Great Commission. I apologize. I should have made this clearer in my initial post.

However, I do not think that this is productive.

Is productivity possible? We're tugging in different directions. One group is waiting around for salvation, the other trying to hedge their bets.

Pointing to religious individuals for being inflexible is just half of the truth.

Yes but nobody knows what the other half is.

Religion is here to stay, at least for the next couple of decades, if we like it or not. We should find a productive way to deal with that.

Simple. Just outlive them.

[lunarsolarpower]

Would you agree that science needs to do serious research on the UFO issue as was called for in the ABC News video?

If someone wants to pay for it, go right ahead. Carl Sagan seemed like the ultimate example of someone who "wanted to believe." Much of his book "The Demon Haunted World" is about his relentless investigation into reports of the paranormal/UFOs/etc. He really did want to find something to sink his teeth into. In spite of this he never found any evidence that was capable of withstanding scrutiny. If anything he concluded that while in past centuries people claimed to experience spirits, witches, ghosts, etc. they now claim interactions with "the greys". UFOs are another matter. I just saw a short segment on TV recently where superstitious people in Mexico have home video footage they insist is a witch floating over the nearby hills. The media went to some sort of scientist to get an opposing viewpoint and she dismissed it out of hand which was unfortunately not a satisfying response.

Note: the "witch" has now been exposed as a balloon. My personal guess of its identity was a black trash bag carried by thermals.

[william7]

If someone wants to pay for it, go right ahead. Carl Sagan seemed like the ultimate example of someone who "wanted to believe." Much of his book "The Demon Haunted World" is about his relentless investigation into reports of the paranormal/UFOs/etc. He really did want to find something to sink his teeth into. In spite of this he never found any evidence that was capable of withstanding scrutiny. If anything he concluded that while in past centuries people claimed to experience spirits, witches, ghosts, etc. they now claim interactions with "the greys".

I saw one of those Carl Sagan programs on television back in 1977 when I was 20 years old. I was really impressed by it even though I didn't have any belief in the supernatural..

UFOs are another matter. UFOs are another matter. I just saw a short segment on TV recently where superstitious people in Mexico have home video footage they insist is a witch floating over the nearby hills. The media went to some sort of scientist to get an opposing viewpoint and she dismissed it out of hand which was unfortunately not a satisfying response.

Note: the "witch" has now been exposed as a balloon. My personal guess of its identity was a black trash bag carried by thermals.

Nobody should of been fooled to think the trash bag was anything significant. But what about the credible descriptions of UFOs in the ABC News video? The people sounded honest about what they observed. I can't detect no hoax here, and nobody who responded to this thread has been able to provide a reasonable explanation.

[biknut]

Ok so it's about 50,000 BC and I just happen to be flyin my intergalactic super lumenal saucer craft, a custom sport model, near a uncharted blue planet in the Sol system. We're a little low on heavy water to power the cold fusion reactor in our toaster oven so we drop down to the planets surface for a refill.

Unexpectedly we come across a tribe of ape men with big noses and circumcised penises. We offer them some chocolate before flying off. Walla, instant God.

When we get back home and tell everyone of our discovery, next thing you know every tribe on earth has it's own demigod. Things go well for our boys for the next few thousand years till the liberals back on our home planet find out about how we're shamelessly exploiting the earthlings for sex and depravity, so they pass a law making us all leave earth and go back home to our wives.

For the rest of time everyone on earth worships us as Gods, but we never come back.

[maestro949]

Nobody should of been fooled to think the trash bag was anything significant. But what about the credible descriptions of UFOs in the ABC News video?

Remember what the U represents.

The people sounded honest about what they observed. I can't detect no hoax here, and nobody who responded to this thread has been able to provide a reasonable explanation.

It is not our responsibility to provide an explanation. You are the one who put forth the notion that a news story about some people who saw something they couldn't identify somehow demonstrates the existence of alien life which in turn means there is a higher power. I'd say the burden remains with you to chase this down.

[Live Forever]

[alien] [alien] [alien]

Sorry, there are so few chances I get to use the alien smiley; I like to do so whenever I can.

[william7]

[alien]  [alien]  [alien]

Sorry, there are so few chances I get to use the alien smiley; I like to do so whenever I can.

But don't run away! Let us know what you believe on the UFO issue. I'm sure your opinion will be an agnostical and skeptical one unless you've been recently converted or something. If these are credible sightings as they do appear to be, doesn't it make the God idea a lot more likely and a lot less delusional?

[Live Forever]

[alien]  [alien]  [alien]

Sorry, there are so few chances I get to use the alien smiley; I like to do so whenever I can.

But don't run away! Let us know what you believe on the UFO issue. I'm sure your opinion will be an agnostical and skeptical one unless you've been recently converted or something. If these are credible sightings as they do appear to be, doesn't it make the God idea a lot more likely and a lot less delusional?

I am skeptical of claims made until I see some proof. That said, I would find it highly unlikely that there are no other life forms in the universe.

Question to you elijah: Did Jesus die for the sins of aliens too? (assuming we someday find they exist) What if they have an alien religious belief that is completely different than Christianity and felt that they needed to convert you instead? (not that this would be any different than the majority of humans who have beliefs that are incompatible with Christianity in general and your particular strain of Christianity in particular)

[william7]

I am skeptical of claims made until I see some proof. That said, I would find it highly unlikely that there are no other life forms in the universe.

Then people, who believe that the UFOs are manifestations of God and the Bible shows evidence of this, shouldn't be considered delusional according to your reasoning?

Question to you elijah: Did Jesus die for the sins of aliens too?

I think Jesus was put here by those so-called aliens. The book I read - which I think was either the Chariots of the Gods or Does God Drive a Flying Saucer?- suggested it was a flying saucer behind the cloud Jesus was drawn up into as described in Acts 1:9-11.

Here are some links to websites about Chariots of the Gods and its author:

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Von_Daniken
http://en.wikipedia....ots_of_the_Gods
http://www.metahisto...ialReligion.php
http://www.daniken.com/e/index.html

[Live Forever]

I am skeptical of claims made until I see some proof. That said, I would find it highly unlikely that there are no other life forms in the universe.

Then people, who believe that the UFOs are manifestations of God and the Bible shows evidence of this, shouldn't be considered delusional according to your reasoning?

The Bible has too many errors and contradictions to be evidence of anything like aliens to me, personally. When I say "evidence", I mean verifiable scientific evidence.

I think Jesus was put here by those so-called aliens. The book I read - which I think was either the Chariots of the Gods or Does God Drive a Flying Saucer?- suggested it was a flying saucer behind the cloud Jesus was drawn up into as described in Acts 1:9-11.

Here are some links to websites about Chariots of the Gods and its author:

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Von_Daniken
http://en.wikipedia....ots_of_the_Gods
http://www.metahisto...ialReligion.php
http://www.daniken.com/e/index.html

Just when I think I have you figured out, elijah, your beliefs again surprise me.

[Live Forever]

Elijah, if the guy at your compound ever tells you all to drink Koolaid at once, perhaps in relation to a comet passing over, just promise me you won't do it.

[william7]

Elijah, if the guy at your compound ever tells you all to drink Koolaid at once, perhaps in relation to a comet passing over, just promise me you won't do it.

Yea, I heard about that one. A cult in San Francisco or somewhere drank poison or something at the command of their leader. Aliens were returning to earth to pick them up I guess was the reason. The article said the people were all professional types that were fairly intelligent.

Never worry. Elijah not that stupid. Nothing in the Bible like that I can see. I'm more interested in establishing kibbutzim around Lake Superior in Michigan's Upper Peninsula where we would have plenty of fresh water for when global warming starts causing drought conditions. I want to stay healthy and live along time.

[basho]

Elijah, if the guy at your compound ever tells you all to drink Koolaid at once, perhaps in relation to a comet passing over, just promise me you won't do it.

Yea, I heard about that one. A cult in San Francisco or somewhere drank poison or something at the command of their leader. Aliens were returning to earth to pick them up I guess was the reason. The article said the people were all professional types that were fairly intelligent.

You're probably thinking of the Heavens Gate cult.

"Drinking the Kool-Aid" in the above context would refer to the Jonestown Massacre.

There are a couple of idiomatic uses of the phrase:

"Drinking the Kool-Aid"

The idiomatic expression "drinking the Kool-Aid" was originally a reference to the Merry Pranksters, a group of people associated with novelist Ken Kesey who in the early 1960s travelled around the United States and held events called "Acid Tests", where LSD-laced Kool-Aid was passed out to the public (LSD was legal at that time). Those who "drank the Kool-Aid" passed the "Acid Test." "Drinking the Kool-Aid" in that context meant accepting the LSD drug culture, and the Pranksters' "turned on" point of view. These events were described in Tom Wolfe's 1968 classic, The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test.[4]

It is also now closely associated with the 1978 cult mass-suicide/murder in Jonestown, Guyana. Jim Jones, the leader of the Peoples Temple, convinced his followers to move to Jonestown. Late in the year, he then ordered his flock to commit suicide by drinking grape-flavored Flavor Aid laced with potassium cyanide. In what is now commonly called the "Jonestown Massacre," a large majority of the 913 people later found dead drank the brew. (The discrepancy between the idiom and the actual occurrence is likely due to Flavor Aid's relative obscurity versus the easily recognizable Kool-Aid.) The precise expression can be attested in usage at least as early as 1987[4]. One lasting legacy of the Jonestown tragedy is the saying, "Don't drink the Kool-Aid." This has come to mean, "Don’t trust any group you find to be a little on the kooky side," or "Whatever they tell you, don't believe it too strongly."[1] The phrase can also be used in the opposite sense to indicate that one has blindly embraced a particular philosophy or perspective (a "Kool-Aid drinker", or, as a cynical response to a fanatical claim, "sounds like someone's been drinking the Kool-Aid!").