14 replies to this topic

[diamondhead]

I know they are not exactly Nootropics, but I think some of you can help me.

I am interested in Xanax, Valium, and Klonopin. I have stopped drinking alcohol and have found it very hard to go bars,clubs without drinking. So, I have resorted to trying a barbiturate instead. I will only use these one or two times a week(friday and saturday). I am a bodybuilder and am constantly striving for a better body, will these substances have any effect on muscle or fat? Again, I will be only using it once or twice max a week. I really appreciate your knowledge and opinions.

I recently experimented with a 10mg valium and xanx saturday night. I was not "bombed" or out of it as I would be with alcohol, since I have an addictive personality I cant control my intake of alcohol once I start. I was more open and not anxious, the feeling I need to have in order to be out at bars or clubs.

The negatives I experienced was extreme hunger a few hours after taking valium and about an hour after one 1mg xanax. (basically binged, only healthy food though) Next morning, very tired, but relaxed all day. That was Sunday, today (monday) I over slept which i never do and was late for work.

I have yet to try klonopin, how does that compare to valium or xanax. I know this is an out of place thread, but please bare with me. Thanks a lot

Edited by Mind, 09 July 2007 - 07:45 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

The class of drugs you are talking about are benzodiazepenes, not barbiturates. Of the three, I only have experience with xanax so I can't offer a comparison. A word of caution though -- you mention you have an addictive personality, and benzo's are among the most addictive drugs out there, more so than alcohol. Be wary... if you are already thinking twice a week is a possibility, I predict trouble lies ahead. You also have to worry about building tolerance, GABA receptor desensitization (leading to rebound anxiety and insomnia), etc. I would stick to an iron-clad, set-in-stone, once-weekly maximum if I were going to use them for for this purpose.

On the other hand, its certainly a better alternative from a body composition perspective than a night of hard drinking. That aspect of your reasoning is sound.

[diamondhead]

The class of drugs you are talking about are benzodiazepenes, not barbiturates.  Of the three, I only have experience with xanax so I can't offer a comparison.  A word of caution though -- you mention you have an addictive personality, and benzo's are among the most addictive drugs out there, more so than alcohol.  Be wary... if you are already thinking twice a week is a possibility, I predict trouble lies ahead.  You also have to worry about building tolerance, GABA receptor desensitization (leading to rebound anxiety and insomnia), etc.  I would stick to an iron-clad, set-in-stone, once-weekly maximum if I were going to use them for for this purpose.

On the other hand, its certainly a better alternative from a body composition perspective than a night of hard drinking.  That aspect of your reasoning is sound.

Thank you very much FunK! : )

I am highly worried about the rebound effects, can they occur after one time a week? I may be experiencing mild rebound effects today at work, slight uneasy feeling, not quite right feeling.

[FunkOdyssey]

I am highly worried about the rebound effects, can they occur after one time a week? I may be experiencing mild rebound effects today at work, slight uneasy feeling, not quite right feeling.

Yes, the day after (even if used infrequently), you can have a bit of a "hangover" that includes anxiety and irritability. What I was warning against though was anxiety and insomnia of a more persistent nature that results from frequent use.

[Mixter]

If only half the population had experience with adaptogens like ashwaghanda (say, in doses exceeding 500mg for over a week at a time, and with bad anxiety or mood problems combined with john's wort), I think that pharma would get a HUUGE problem in selling their benzo/sleep-aid/whatever crap. [tung] And possibly the alcohol industry.

Ever since including long-term ashwaghanda in my regimen, I feel NO other need for relaxation than I can get with that, and enough sleep. And the effect on GABA and other systems is regulatory, while most of the popular sleep/relaxation pills are (esp. GABA-) agonists themselves and induce dependence... seems so foolish to rely on them for anything that is not a serious psychiatric condition.

[niner]

Diamondhead, I've used all three. Klonopin in my experience is dopier and sleepier than the other two. Valium is for me kind of a miracle drug. I just feel great on it, but not dopey or debilitated in any way. For me it is the best anxiolytic out there. That said, I haven't used it in years. I think I could get heroin easier than valium. I was able to use benzodiazepines off and on for years without getting addicted, but I don't have an addictive personality. I am also able to go long periods without alcohol, although I love it. Your experience with any of these substances could be vastly different than mine. I have seen people have some scary responses to valium, for example, so it deserves some serious respect.

FunkO's comments are good advice. A little Xanax is going to be better for your body than going out and getting hammered, certainly in the short term and maybe in the long term as well. It's good that you have an awareness of where you are at with respect to substances. Good luck.

[diamondhead]

Diamondhead, I've used all three.  Klonopin in my experience is dopier and sleepier than the other two.  Valium is for me kind of a miracle drug.  I just feel great on it, but not dopey or debilitated in any way.  For me it is the best anxiolytic out there.  That said, I haven't used it in years.  I think I could get heroin easier than valium.  I was able to use benzodiazepines off and on for years without getting addicted, but I don't have an addictive personality.  I am also able to go long periods without alcohol, although I love it.  Your experience with any of these substances could be vastly different than mine.  I have seen people have some scary responses to valium, for example, so it deserves some serious respect. 

FunkO's comments are good advice.  A little Xanax is going to be better for your body than going out and getting hammered, certainly in the short term and maybe in the long term as well.  It's good that you have an awareness of where you are at with respect to substances.  Good luck.

Niner, thank you for your response. My mind and will power have become stronger, so I believe I will not abuse these at all. When they arrived, I even thought about throwing them out, but changed my mind and decided to respect them.
From my research valium has a longer half life than xanax and Klonopin has the longest.


The ACTUAL half life of Klonopin ranges from 18-50 hrs

> xanax is 6-12
>
> Valium (parent drug) is 20-100, 36-200 for the active metabolite desmethyldiazepam

[medievil]

If only half the population had experience with adaptogens like ashwaghanda (say, in doses exceeding 500mg for over a week at a time, and with bad anxiety or mood problems combined with john's wort), I think that pharma would get a HUUGE problem in selling their benzo/sleep-aid/whatever crap. [tung] And possibly the alcohol industry.

Ever since including long-term ashwaghanda in my regimen, I feel NO other need for relaxation than I can get with that, and enough sleep. And the effect on GABA and other systems is regulatory, while most of the popular sleep/relaxation pills are (esp. GABA-) agonists themselves and induce dependence... seems so foolish to rely on them for anything that is not a serious psychiatric condition.

i dont agree, those herbs will work if your problems are mild, but from ppl with big problems (site like drbob) those herbs dont work great at all, benzo's are way more effective (well they dont work for controlling my anxiety, i'm gonna look into nardil)

[diamondhead]

If only half the population had experience with adaptogens like ashwaghanda (say, in doses exceeding 500mg for over a week at a time, and with bad anxiety or mood problems combined with john's wort), I think that pharma would get a HUUGE problem in selling their benzo/sleep-aid/whatever crap. [tung] And possibly the alcohol industry.

Ever since including long-term ashwaghanda in my regimen, I feel NO other need for relaxation than I can get with that, and enough sleep. And the effect on GABA and other systems is regulatory, while most of the popular sleep/relaxation pills are (esp. GABA-) agonists themselves and induce dependence... seems so foolish to rely on them for anything that is not a serious psychiatric condition.

Ive used Ashwaghanda, currently using it along with Maca. It works very minimally for anxiety and tension.

[ikaros]

I know they are not exactly Nootropics

Actually, low dose alprazolam has shown cognitive enhancing properties. Although the dose has to be really low, higher doses certainly cloud consciousness and impair learning.

The study:

Role of dopaminergic and serotonergic systems on behavioral stimulatory effects of low-dose alprazolam and lorazepam
by
Bentue-Ferrer D, Reymann JM, Tribut O, Allain H, Vasar E, Bourin M.
Laboratoire de Pharmacologie Experimentale et Clinique,
Faculte de Medecine,
2 avenue du Pr Leon Bernard,
35043 Cedex, Rennes, France
Eur Neuropsychopharmacol 2001 Feb;11(1):41-50

ABSTRACT
Several recent studies have demonstrated that alprazolam and lorazepam, administered at low doses to healthy volunteers, improve cognitive functions and psychomotor performances. Paradoxical effects of low-dose benzodiazepines have been also observed in mice, in experimental pharmacology. The aim of this work was to determine, in rat, the effect of similar low-doses of benzodiazepines on spontaneous locomotor activity and performance in the elevated zero-maze, and to investigate the underlying neurobiological mechanisms. The dose-effect and the time-course of the action were studied for both compounds. Spontaneous locomotor activity was measured using a photoelectric actimeter. The level of anxiety of the animals was assessed in the elevated zero-maze. Dopamine, serotonin, and their metabolites were assayed in the extracellular striatal fluid of the awake rat, obtained by microdialysis, by HPLC-EC. Spontaneous locomotor activity observed in rats given low-dose alprazolam and lorazepam evidenced a stimulatory effect only with alprazolam. The effect was maximum 90 min after administration of 0.0050 mg/kg alprazolam. An anxiogenic-like action was evidenced with the elevated zero-maze for the two compounds. We observed a statistically significant increase in striatal dopamine concentrations only with alprazolam, during the period corresponding to the behavioral stimulatory effects. We also showed a marked trend towards increased levels of serotonin with alprazolam but this modification was not significant, in spite of statistically significant variations of 5-HIAA. In the rat, behavioral stimulatory effects of low-dose benzodiazepines is evidenced with alprazolam but not lorazepam. This effect could be explained, at least in part, by increased extracellular dopamine concentrations in the striatum. Their different structures could explain the different pattern observed for the two benzodiazepines.

And link: http://www.biopsychi.../alprazolam.htm

[narcissistic]

If only half the population had experience with adaptogens like ashwaghanda (say, in doses exceeding 500mg for over a week at a time, and with bad anxiety or mood problems combined with john's wort), I think that pharma would get a HUUGE problem in selling their benzo/sleep-aid/whatever crap.  And possibly the alcohol industry.

The problem is that people won’t get a mild high from ashwaghanda or john's wort. I relay think that regular people how are getting drugs from the benzodiazepenes family, very often are lucking for mild legal high witch is socially accepted. If doctors would present alternatives witch didn’t have that desired effect the masses wouldn’t be satisfied. And they don’t give a shit abbot supplements, herbs, or omega3 they want to get high and they won’t accept any objections.

[s123]

I would recommend something like inositol or ashwaganda (this I have never taken, so I cannot speak about it) instead of benzodiazepenes or barbiturates.

[niner]

The problem is that people won’t get a mild high from ashwaghanda or john's wort. I relay think that regular people how are getting drugs from the benzodiazepenes family, very often are lucking for mild legal high witch is socially accepted. If doctors would present alternatives witch didn’t have that desired effect the masses wouldn’t be satisfied. And they don’t give a shit abbot supplements, herbs, or omega3 they want to get high and they won’t accept any objections.

I don't agree. I never felt anything remotely like a "high" from benzodiazepines, just a lack of anxiety. Getting rid of pathological anxiety feels great, but it's just a healthy, normal feeling for me. No high at all. People who are bothered by anxiety will continue to seek out ways to reduce it. I'll grant that there is a loady community out there that will do just about anything to get high, but I think they are in the minority, although perhaps a sizable minority. I've got nothing against getting high responsibly, it's just that benzodiazepines don't do it for me.

[narcissistic]

I don't agree. I never felt anything remotely like a "high" from benzodiazepines, just a lack of anxiety.

Its more like a low maybe, any way the benzodiazepines are wary popular among drug addicts (perhaps to get rid of the anxiety cost by other drugs). I did take a fairly large dos of Valium ones, to me it resembled a lot to alcohol, its not a kick jet its a direct change of mood witch for me define a drug.

most people suffering from mild anxiety would probably get ride of their problem if they started supplementing witch basic nutrients, as well as omega3; and perhaps one of the herbs mentioned earlier (but I’m sure there are exception). Considering how much of this stuff doctors prescribe every year I’m sure most of the people using them do it because it makes them fell good, not to get ride of an unbearable anxiety.

[meatwad]

I've been prescribed lyrica (new age gabapentin) and i'm still high in the honeymoon period.

Works similar to a benzo without down regulation. Not to pimp it too much but I heard it was great for people who are easily addicted to downers. I think it feels like low dose GHB (without rebound) and or xanax.