9 replies to this topic

[Aegist]

hi people.
I just want to mention this in Leadership for the moment, but after rather continuous background brain power over the last 6 months or year, my thoughts all coalesced into an abrupt conclusion over the weekend that I need to write *the* book about the immortality movement. I have been reading the ImmInst book, and it is very good stuff, but I think the collection of essays lacks what the general populace really needs: a single piece of prose slowly convincing them that this is going to happen, that it is good that it is going to happen, that none of their concerns are at all well founded, and that the sooner it happens the better; therefore we need their support. And that is what I think I can produce.

Coming from a background mixed in molecular biology, philosophy and history and philosophy of science, I think i have the right sort of training to tackle this idea, plus I have the general knowledge accumulated of being an immortalist for over 10 years now. Plus I just quit my job in order to devote more time to my projects (papersaloud, sag and sbb), and so dedicating more time to the real purpose of my life (extension of life) is exactly what I want to do.

Now, I already have a reasonably details plan already set out. I think I know what needs to be said, and I think I know what is *really* necessary. But before I really get started actually writing anything, I need to make sure I am as up to date with my own knowledge as possible and as well versed in what has already been said, written, argued etc.

SOOOOOOO

What is out there? I'm reading the ImmInst book, I've seen the imminst movie, i've watched nearly every Aubrey speech ever given, I've learned to love Ray Kurzweil.... I will no doubt spend more time reading the articles which pass through the pages of the Longevity Meme, and also spend more time reading the articles associated with SENS and MPrize etc. But what books are an absolute must read for me which I don't know about?

The topics I think the book (my book) will need to cover are:
1. What immortality/extended youthfulness/longevity does and does not actually mean
2. Is it possible?
3. Objections.
4. Benefits
5. What can be done now to make it a success?
6. Consequences of Success
7. Politics of Lifespan extension

I think I am reasonably knowledgable about 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. Of course I will want to/need to brush up of them all anyway, but I feel confident that I could talk a layman through them convincingly (remember, I don't want to be a scientist, I want to be a communicator of science. I want to be a Richard Dawkins, or Carl Sagan). 6 I have ideas about, but I probably need to explore that more. Though that does tie in very closely to many of the objections and the benefits. But actually envisioning the world as it will become will be difficult, so maybe if I can get some sci fi books that picture such a world, or if there are any really good books which have infact attempted to describe what such a world might be like in realistic terms..that would be great.

7 is th toughest one. i think it will be one of the hardest areas to discuss, even with knowledge of it, but I need to get the knowledge first. By politics I mean, consequences of "Ageing society", economics, insurance, age of retirement, pension, welfare etc. Basically, the fact is, if this ever happens, then society is turned on its head. Nothing can remain the same, everything needs to be rethought and redone. And it will be hell. This book will not attempt to solve that problems, but I think I need to have a firm enough handle on the concept to make suggestions. because ultimately the goal of this book is to
1. Entice the reader into enjoying the idea of eternal youthfulness.
2. Convince them that it is actually possible in reality
3. Slap their fears and stupid gut reactions out of their minds and reassure them that it is ok....
4. Provide examples of how it is not only OK, but better than they imagined, it infact helps the world, not hurts it.
5. The reader should by now actually be an immortalist, and thus want to help make it happen sooner rather than later...
6. But its time to bring everything back to reality: we can't rush in blindly. Lets make sure we consider our actions first.
7. And the biggest consideration is...Political. What will happen to the world?

I think I can do that. I can write that book. I don't think making a negative person into a supporter is the hard bit. No. The hard bit is what happens when the world does support our goals. What happens when we are successful. And that is what I think the true goal of the book should be:
"World, WAKE UP. This will happen, and we need to start planning for it NOW, before it gets us by surprise, and really makes us sorry!"[B]

So...thoughts..?

[Athanasios]

Have you familiarized yourself with some essays from: http://www.nickbostrom.com/

I will have more suggestions later, and if you ever need some help, PM me.

[Live Forever]

To get more people to read it, you will need a catchy title and/or snappy subtitle to catch people's eyes.

I am hoping that Aubrey's upcoming book Ending Aging has such a title. (also might have some lessons that you could take from it in there?)

[zoolander]

Good luck Shane.

[Live Forever]

Also, if you are trying to get it seen by lots of people, you should probably shop around for a publisher. No one gets wide distribution nowadays without a publisher.

[maestro949]

When I think of trying to get the masses to warm up to radical life extension few positive thoughts come to mind. Modern cultures are so fixed in their habitual lifestyles it seems that only up and coming generations are accessible to visionary changes. The rest either refuse to believe it, ignore it, resist it, or worse, work to squash it. I'm fine with surprising the general public with it though without their wealth and support it's going to take a lot longer to make happen.

Despite this, any positive literature, even if it only plants some seeds and sways a small percentage is of value as there's a compounding return on investment.

One angle that might get some buzz is focusing on the premise that immortality will solve most if not all humanity's problems rather than introduce new ones. It's such a radical notion for most that it might generate the buzz based on the absurdity factor alone. If people are asleep, in this case comatose, sometimes you have to pour cold water on them in order to wake them up.

[Aegist]

Thanks guys. I'll definitely read Aubrey's book and go through the essays on Nick Bostroms website, and LF, I agree completely. That is one thing I have already put an amount of consideration into. I haven't come up with a Title I am happy with yet, but I am sure I will by the time I have written it (probably something clever from the text if I'm lucky). And I do want to try to get a good publisher, preferably someone (not sure if the publisher does this or not) to "Sell" the book for me. That is, someone to organise the reviews in all of the newspapers and magazines worldwide, someone to make sure the book gets into all of the major book chains etc. Someone to get the book out there.

Maestro, while "modern" cultures do seem fixed in their way, every culture is always fixed in their way. The only way to change it is to fight for it. And leaving it for uypcoming generations will only offset the fight. We have to start fighting for acceptance now so that upcoming generations can be ok with it.

It is never easy starting an initially unpopular movement (anti slavery, equal rights for women etc), but someone has to do it, so that the future generations can criticize their contemporary activists for being all worked up over nothing: "Of course we support lifespan extension, you'd be stupid not to". But someone has to do the hard yards and take on all of the stupid criticisms first.

[maestro949]

Maestro, while "modern" cultures do seem fixed in their way, every culture is always fixed in their way. The only way to change it is to fight for it. And leaving it for uypcoming generations will only offset the fight. We have to start fighting for acceptance now so that upcoming generations can be ok with it.

It is never easy starting an initially unpopular movement (anti slavery, equal rights for women etc), but someone has to do it, so that the future generations can criticize their contemporary activists for being all worked up over nothing: "Of course we support lifespan extension, you'd be stupid not to". But someone has to do the hard yards and take on all of the stupid criticisms first.

Agreed. I just tend to be a bit more cynical as to how much impact we can really have on influencing people. I feel like we're in a chicken/egg situation. The majority of the general public isn't going to believe it's possible until we demonstrate that it can be done which we can't do until they believe it can be done and invest resources into it.

I think often as to where the most time should be spent. Proselytize the meme or invest in research on the tech end? It'll be different for everyone but personally, I usually choose the latter due to my cynicism but I do know they are both important so still I chip away at influencing those I can by writing pro LE responses to blogs arguing its intractability, working on friends and fam, etc. What I'm really looking for is that sweet spot in the middle where we can develop or pull together some tech that can advance the cause, convince swathes of people and perhaps even get them engaged. That might be a bit too ambitious but even long shots like this should be explored.

[Aegist]

Thats why Aubrey is the man. The MPrize, SENS....they were pure strokes of genius. He managed to make tech advancement a public concern, thereby acheiving both at one time.

I think that we need to push both avenues constantly. I will absolutely invest in tech and research....but i need money first. If I can do this right, maybe the book will make money (not expecting that for a second though). My goal is actually to make money doing whatever, so that I can then spend my time researching, and best case scenario, start my own biotech company or non profit research group, or whatever. If I can make the money needed to start down that path by raising awareness at the same time, then all the better!

[Lazarus Long]

I started this project independently and have set it aside for a while pending other project conclusion after a few hundred pages of significantly developed plot. You can find a small sample of it in the creative section here as a short story representing a single chapter.

I have serious concerns over in depth character development and that is the main reason I stopped. Too much cliche is already out there and balancing the attractive hook versus the serious literary exploration is my tightrope of endeavor at the moment.

I am less interested in a pop sci book directly because I think it reaches too limited an audience. That is not to detract at all from the efforts of Aubrey and others but I think we must take on social change in a large scale effort and stop merely preaching to the choir and this is a far more significant challenge to undertake.

Both avenues deserve attention but the more esoteric is more important from a true scientific perspective and perhaps long term social one too but the advantages of creative social modeling in short term fiction should also not be overlooked because it is there that possible is made recognizable for many as well as the advantages presented in a fashion of importance and attraction that make others willing to lend their efforts to the struggle. Anyway a good work of fiction when successful also represents vastly greater potential reward for the risk involved.

Take a look a the discussion between Caliban and myself during the formative period of designing and defining our book for some background on this subject.

About the 7 points:

1. Entice the reader into enjoying the idea of eternal youthfulness.

This the area that is both easiest and most risky as it is all too easy to fall into shallow cliche but when a well developed character is created the reader interst is amplified dramatically through sympathetic identification.

2. Convince them that it is actually possible in reality

This relates to a balance of #1 combined with good science and social tech prediction. D. Brin, O. S Card, Verne, Wells (and many more) are good examples but what is also important is how they develop characters that capture sympathetic response from the reader.

3. Slap their fears and stupid gut reactions out of their minds and reassure them that it is ok....

This requires a careful control of #1, #2, #4 and we ll developed understand of history and social mechanics. Read Asimov ad Heinlein for good examples of this type of writing.

4. Provide examples of how it is not only OK, but better than they imagined, it infact helps the world, not hurts it.

refer to #3 but it is vital to create CREDIBLE opportunity that can be rationally assimilated by the reader rather than (for example) the extreme fantasy of singularity IMHO. You can catch a big fish with a little hook and lite test line but you have to play out the experience to the fish. Little *hooks* are more attractive to more readers than big sensations. Sensationalism is more a *cover story* than effective plot.

5. The reader should by now actually be an immortalist, and thus want to help make it happen sooner rather than later...

A valid goal but sometimes it is better to make the reader NOT want to be mortal tha to over promote immortalism. It also may be much easier and smack less of a kind of partisan evangelism of our own. I suggest it is better to get the reader to define themselves as a immortalist rather than be perceived of as preaching to them from our very own soapbox.

Minimize the disadvantages, normalize rather than sensationalize the opportunity (this makes the reading more willing to suspend disbelief) and maximize the disadvantages of mortality, while minimizing the common perception of advantage that are still powerful memes to address. Emphasize the empty tragedy of death over its heroic character for example.

6. But its time to bring everything back to reality: we can't rush in blindly. Lets make sure we consider our actions first.

Always try to get the reader to see the future beginning in the present if not the past Here I have already addressed many of the same concerns and there are even more to ponder and prepare for.

7. And the biggest consideration is...Political. What will happen to the world?

Utopic versus dystopic themes are the most common single element of all scifi and it is here you risk the cliche of:
HEY! Where is my flying car!.

It also must present a testable hypothesis.

When playing prophet you had better be good because on balance isn't good enough. Being overall right about the future isn't good enough if a few mistakes allow most readers to ignore or discard the thematic premise.

Starting with small predictions of the near future that are recognizable to the reader as they come true tends to lend credibility to the author as well as the theme, while also lending credibility to the longer term predictions. Also make the predictions rational to the average reader not just technologically feasible.

Even if they come true it doesn't necessarily make them attractive and also remember to address the unintended consequence analysis and what happens in a negative predictive sense if we do nothing or allow the worst case scenario trends of the present to go unchecked with respect to mortality.

I hope that helps for a start and if you are interested in collaborating at all with others then I suggest you consider forming a team. The good publisher advice was important but not as important as it used to be but editing and proofreading are significantly more important if you do not go that route.