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Piracetam and the Cholinergic System


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#1 samonakuba

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Posted 29 July 2007 - 04:44 AM


There's something I've started to wonder about Piracetam. CDP-Choline and Alpha GPC are supposed to be the best choline sources, and they also happen to be the ones proven to raise brain acetylcholine levels. That's the consensus. But what is it, exactly, that Piracetam needs to have actually floating around in the brain?

DMAE (ie. di-methylaminoethanol) for instance, raises choline levels greatly across the board, and appears to compete with choline (which is actually tri-methylaminoethanol, DMAE with an additional methyl group) to get into the brain. It tends to be thought of as a "weaker" choline source, or even, erroneously, an "iffy" AChE precursor. Taken by itself, it certainly doesn't have the most impressive effects on the cholinergic system, apart from flooding the bloodstream with choline by preventing its uptake and breakdown (sic?). Basically, it makes a lot of choline while simultaneously slowing choline metabolism.

But does Piracetam care how much AChE your choline source allows to get made? Piracetam simply needs *choline*, right? And DMAE is essentially choline missing a methyl group, and taking it orally funnels tons of it into the brain, by whatever mechanism producing a measurable increase in choline levels.

Is it even necessary to take a choline source that, if taken alone, results in increased acetylcholine levels? Is DMAE, taken with Piracetam, actually as useless as it would be without it? The studies that are really excited about AGPC and CDP-Choline (and this is where the hierarchy of choline supplements seems to come from) aren't about increasing blood choline, but about increasing brain AChE -- but which is actually the most important to take into account when taking it with Piracetam?

The reason I'm so bothered by these questions is because DMAE, taken alone, is actually largely useless in all the ways that AGPC and CDP-Choline are supposed to be most beneficial -- that is, to increase brain levels of acetylcholine, reverse symptoms of senile dementia, etc., and yet for some reason works pretty well with Piracetam.

Sorry if these all seem like questions too basic to ask, or if I'm beating a dead horse. I just haven't been able to find any posts that steps around the general consensus about choline supplements and actually talks about all of this.

#2 EmbraceUnity

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 03:45 PM

I noticed that I only really felt piracetam when I took it with DMAE, not lecithin. I think you are right that there is probably something about DMAE that makes it only useful with piracetam. I feel nothing with DMAE alone.

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#3 wwxx

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 08:29 PM

This is an interesting subject - I'd like to know more.

#4 tothepoint

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 05:21 AM

*bump*

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#5 jubai

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 02:24 AM

Curious too, for me Piracetam + DMAE works better than Lecithin it seems, and it's cheap as hell and good for skin so I like it. It definetely prevents symptos associated with low brain choline (headache, brain fog) which can happen with piracetam alone.

Agpc is still better, but too expensive... :(




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