90 replies to this topic

[sentinel]

No, but seriously. Having spent a 2 month period of barely going to the gym (unheard of for years) I am keen to increase both strength and size as they have been at a similar level for the last year or so.

Sifting through the blatant marketeering of T-Nation, BB.com, M&M etc is pretty difficult if you are after semi-objective, non-sponsor biased reviews, especially as most chaps seem to be hammering 3 different supps at the same time, potentially with roids or Pro-Hormones.

Sooo, it would be interesting to get the views, preferably backed by personal experience, of members here of what has worked for them and I'm particularly targeting the more "exotic", non basic products. Could be to improve workouts resulting in better inroads or improving recovery for better gains etc...

Tried and use:
MRPs - Met-Rx, EAS - powder and/or RTD
Protein Powder - Optimal Nutrition 100% Whey
Creatine - Jarrow (don't recommend, really gritty) straight Mono.

Interested in but not used:
ZMA,
BCCAs (used years ago but they seem to have come back round..)
Tribulus
Surge, AMP, a zillion other extotics and whatever else you've tried

This isn't about:
Steroids
Pro-Hormones
They work but that's not what this topic is about

Assume sensible workout ie each muscle trained with compound movements every 4 days and balanced diet of protein/carbs/fat in 40/40/20 running protein at c 1 gm per lb bodyweight. Don't get hung up on this as this is a supplement discussion.

I just thought it's time we had our own mini BB, testo forum where people can shout about their 10lb gains in 10 minutes etc

Sentinel

[maxwatt]

D-Pinitol: looks promising.

[sentinel]

With Creatine ? Know anyone who's tried it?

[Gerald W. Gaston]

D-Pinitol/Inzitol used to come up a good bit back in 2002-2006 range on some of the BB sites, but you don't hear much about it now. BN used to carry t but no longer do.

[riseboi]

For the past few months, I've added beta alanine to my assortment of "workout" supps. Personally, I think it has helped with my endurance. I think there are some favorable studies on Pubmed and it's not too expensive. I'd say give it a shot.

[Mind]

Not sure if this is the exotic-type stuff you are looking for, but anecdotally speaking I had a good results using a product called NO-Explode this spring. Gave me more energy to work-out. I could max out a lot easier and gained about 5lbs muscle in a month (I was on a fairly lean diet, otherwise I think I could've squeezed out 2 or 3 more pounds)

[Shepard]

If you aren't on the whole range of cell volumizers, you can get some of those and put on rather quickly LBM (not necessarily skeletal muscle). I had good recovery success from high doses of BCAAs (30-60 grams/day) a while back when my activity level was pretty ridiculous. And, lots of people are liking extra leucine with waxy maize starch PWO these days.

But really, the best thing to do would be to eat more food and move heavier weights.

[ajnast4r]

99% of supplements for building muscle are pure bullshit... and the 1% that do work, do so at the cost of health...




what you need:

hard, diverse training w/ compound lifts. (dumbbells & freeweights ONLY, no machines)
good diet. (proper caloric intake w/ proper macronutrient ratios, lean proteins, complex carbs, healthy fats, tons of veggies + fruits)
adequate sleep. equally as important as working out itself
1-2 total rest days per week
good multivitamin
supplemental proteins (whey & egg are best)
water & lots of it!

if you want to use creatine, use 2cm brand di-creatine malate or albion labs brand magnesium-creatine chelate. both of which can be found in bulk for very very cheap.
& pre-workout caffeine is always nice

anything else is honestly a waste of money

[Gerald W. Gaston]

I take beta-alanine with my brew of Poseidon, Green Magnitude, and other "normal" (for this site at least) supplements. I usually roll my own Creatine mix from bulk purchases, but the neighbor gave up lifting due to his bad back and gave me two new containers of GM (plus other stuff like 10 bottles of Clear Edge).

Combine the paresthesia from the beta-alanine and the niacin flush (Poseidon has 75mg Niacin) and that is one odd feeling to get use to. Still haven't after weeks of the combo, and it freaks the wife out when I look "blotchy" to her. :-)

[sentinel]

Beta Alanine - Interesting, it's one of those supplements I could never quite get excited about, like glutamine. But it does seem to have solid performance improvement capabilities backed by a steady flow of research.

Shepard: the whole range of cell volumizers.."

By which you mean Creatine, Glutamine, Taurine?, B Al? It's quite a big range, do people really take glutamine a lot still?

BCAA's - It's all really coming back to the aminos isn't it - how about timing, significant?

Waxy maize starch - not exactly exotic but right off my radar! I'll check it out [lol]

Not sure if this is the exotic-type stuff you are looking for, but anecdotally speaking I had a good results using a product called NO-Explode this spring. Gave me more energy to work-out. I could max out a lot easier and gained about 5lbs muscle in a month..

Mind you dark horse! 5lbs! that's great in a month (taking on-board your lean comment)That's exotic; reasurringly Proprietary ingredients, caffeine, citrulline malate - The pre-WO drink is something I've not really given a go so definitely worth investing in.

ajnast4r - Check to pretty much all that and I'm taking proper weights and diet as a given as laid out - just wanted to focus on the supplements for this one. Everything you said makes sense.

Sentinel

[Shepard]

By which you mean Creatine, Glutamine, Taurine?, B Al? It's quite a big range, do people really take glutamine a lot still?

Yeah, there are a ton. I'd stick to two or three: creatine, taurine, betaine HCL, glycerine, whatever. There are a few good stand-alone products, but some tend to throw everything they can at you.

BCAA's - It's all really coming back to the aminos isn't it - how about timing, significant?

I dosed most of them around heavy training and split the rest up throughout the day.

[efosse]

I drink whey protein before, during, and after my workout. A number of studies show benefits from taking whey protein; more convincing than most other supplements.

btw, any studies on d-pinitol? i couldn't find much from scholar.google.com...

cheers,
efosse

[sentinel]

http://www.nature.co...s/0703523a.html

This an interesting astract for D-pinitol.

[sentinel]

I'd stick to two or three: creatine, taurine, betaine HCL, glycerine, whatever

Did you mean beta-alanine? B HCL is just absorption rather than cell volumisation surely?

[Shepard]

Did you mean beta-alanine? B HCL is just absorption rather than cell volumisation surely?

That's my bad, I should have left off the HCL part. The betaine (or, TMG) is what has the effect.

Edited by shepard, 08 August 2007 - 12:00 AM.

[robosapiens]

Glutamine doesn't really work much, and can be an excitotoxin in the brain

I like Creatine and Lucine, flax oil, and lot and lots of protein (2.5 Grams per kilogram of bodyweight)

[robosapiens]

why only every 4 days? you can hit the same muscle groops every day.

[mike250]

BCAAs I would certainly add. glutamine some BBs reported less soreness with it, but I think you need quite a large amount of it. its good for other reasons though. some sort of whey protein post-workout along with other stuff.

[health_nutty]

Not sure if this is the exotic-type stuff you are looking for, but anecdotally speaking I had a good results using a product called NO-Explode this spring. Gave me more energy to work-out. I could max out a lot easier and gained about 5lbs muscle in a month (I was on a fairly lean diet, otherwise I think I could've squeezed out 2 or 3 more pounds)

I'm surprised you would take this given your general conservative supplementation strategy.

[sentinel]

Robo: why only every 4 days? you can hit the same muscle groops every day.

Not really getting into the training subject here as that's got it's own forum but I don't think anyone would optimise muscle building by hitting the same muscle every day. Even if they are taking steroids and varying your rep range each day to hit fast/slow twitch muscles you're going to fry your CNS and not give your body a chance to re-build, let alone increase muscle. If it works for you great, but I believe that hitting a muscle hard then letting it recover and grow is more effective, which brings us back to supplements...

[jubai]

My conclusion after having been around the block:


Glutamine is good for recovery (noticeable for sure) but it is included (at least 4-5g per serving ) in pretty much all protein powders, so it is not necessary, and too much (10-15g) will give you insomnia

Low dose creatine is good. Creatine mono isn't great, Ethyl Ester is much better, works at 2 gram a day and make less water retention

Taurine is cheap in bulk and good before cardio for better endurance
Rhodiola Rosea is cheap and good for cardio, ATP production, mood and protection
ALCAR in bulk is cheap and good for energy and weight loss

ALA will help you lose fat and improve definiton

Beta-Alanine is cheap, good for endurance and has probably some AGE breaking properties
GreenTea is cheap and good

Forskolin in bulk is cheap and helps with fat loss


Basically all these supplements are good for health/life extension, and it happens they will help performance, muscle buidling and weight loss. I believe this is a good strategy.


Some evidence shows that the post-workout shake is optimal when a mix of whey/casein/egg, I suggest ISS Micellar Matrix, available at bulknutrition, great quality even if a bit more expensive than pure whey.

Casein works great before bed to prevent catabolism. I suggest Optimum nutrition 100% casein.

Coconut oil is healthy, thermogenic and contains 50% of MCTs which cannot be absorbed as fat by the body


Very important to use insulin/blood sugar at your advantage and not against you.

So basically

1-some carbs before workout, but not too much (energy for workout but possible fat loss if cardio etc)
2-30 min after workout, Protein/Carb meal for refeed (Whey + Casein, add ALA, green tea and forskolin, blueberries etc)
3- Protein/Lipid before bed for long protein absorption and low blood sugar (fat burning)
4- Rest of meals (5-6 day) should be mostly Protein/Carb or Protein/Lipid, do not mix carbs + lipids too often as that will make you absorb the fat very quickly



All above supplements have solid science to back them up, good effect on health and good synergy.


The "Exotic" supplements can work, but are expensive and not really necessary. For the price of a "special" supplement for 3 months, you can get bulk ALCAR + Alanine + Taurine + Green Tea + Forskolin for 6-12 months! And the "special" supplement is not always healthy.


Pretty much all those supps are available in bulk and covers many aspects of muscle building and fat composition.

If you refeed right, and manage your blood sugar well, bodyfat% will be easy to maintain and recuperation optimal.


Rejected supps:


Glutamine: already enough in protein powder
Arginine/NO xplode will give kinda better strength, but will improve visible pump and veins (cosmetic is their main usage), and are expensive
ZMA etc can work, but not as much as the above supps
Flax oil is good for skin health and some, but since you want real omega 3s for training don't skip the real fish oil!
BCAAs: possibly good, but with bulk aminos already, high quality protein and great diet you'll get plenty of aminos, so not necessary
ECA stack: good for fat loss, but too rough on CNS system can make you crash after weeks of usage.
Creatine mono: too much water retention, makes your kidneys work too much
100% whey: spikes blood sugar, could be good after training but I feel it's better to add some egg/casein
Tyrosine: Good for focus, but not sure if a good idea to mess a lot with dopamine system
Caffeine: Good for fat loss and energy, too much bad for adrenal and CNS, already some in GreenTea
MuscleMilk etc ("complete meal") supplements: expensive, get the best protein and add your own good fats (MCTs from coconut, avocado, grapeseed, or fish oil)
Modafinil: can help focus and energy, not always necessary, if interested use low dose (50mg is enough, don't go to 200+ like the crazy guys around here, Adam I'm looking at you!)
Tribulus: some swear by it, not much effect on me, not sure if it's a good idea to mess with testosterone levels even if "naturally"
CLA: good for fat loss, conflicting health evidence
Yohimbine: good for fat loss, hard on CNS, too stimulating for many


Possibly interesting:

Methoxyisoflavone Powder

Edited by jubai, 08 August 2007 - 04:02 PM.

[health_nutty]

CEE is harder on the kidney's than creatine monohydrate. 99% of the research has been done on mono.

[mike250]

10-15g of glutamine isn't really much.

as for those fancy creatine brands, I believe their just market hype, although I've heard of some people getting too much bloat with creatine mono.

[sentinel]

Creatine is quite the topic in itself. From going through the MANY different forums and studies I see little to push me towards CEE rather than mono but I completely accept that (as with all supplements) individuals will respond better to different forms and brands to some extent. If anyone has anything to add to the thread below which has salient points from Zoo and Ajnast then that would be very interesting... Or other suggestions.

http://www.imminst.o...&hl=creatine&s=

riseboi - suprised not to see you chime in with a Jungle Warfare push

edit: Link didn't paste in

Edited by sentinel, 09 August 2007 - 08:04 AM.

[riseboi]

lol, I would have but you stated you wished to avoid talk of roids.

[ajnast4r]

di-creatine malate
magnesium-creatine chelate

no bloat and huge doses like mono, and no health risks like cee

[mike250]

health risks of CEE? please explain

[mike250]

99% of supplements for building muscle are pure bullshit... and the 1% that do work, do so at the cost of health...




what you need:

hard, diverse training w/ compound lifts. (dumbbells & freeweights ONLY, no machines)
good diet. (proper caloric intake w/ proper macronutrient ratios, lean proteins, complex carbs, healthy fats, tons of veggies + fruits)
adequate sleep. equally as important as working out itself
1-2 total rest days per week
good multivitamin
supplemental proteins (whey & egg are best)
water & lots of it!

if you want to use creatine, use 2cm brand di-creatine malate or albion labs brand magnesium-creatine chelate. both of which can be found in bulk for very very cheap.
& pre-workout caffeine is always nice

anything else is honestly a waste of money

I wouldn't totally diss machines. they have their uses.

[efosse]

hey jubai,

again, an awesome very useful post. question, though: why casein before bed? i searched scholar.google.com but i couldn't find info on the importance of ingesting casein before sleeping. (currently i only ingest proteins before/during/after workouts.) thanks!!!!

cheers,
efosse

[mike250]

casein is a slow digesting protein. basically it produces a slow but steady stream of amino acids and can inhibit protein breakdown. I usually take it with some natural peanut butter since 7-9 hours is a long time to not be feeding your body.

yum yum.