63 replies to this topic

[stargazer]

Just to warn you all beforehand, this will be one of those "help me find a regime" kind of threads that you so often read on this forum. So there, I've told you, don't blame me if you become annoyed.

Anyways, I'm 19 years old male from Sweden (so I apologize for my english) and all my life I've been extremely amotivated, almost to the point of extreme. I've never done anything in school really, not anything. Though I love science and wish to devote my life to it I've never ever made an effort even when I found the subject interesting (and I often do when it comes to anything academically). Fortunately I was born with enough intelligence, or luck heh, to finish school with half-decent grades. Now you probably hear of this kind of procrastination all the time and no doubt I'm lazy but it goes beyond that. I even procrastinate from things I like, like playing video games or reading books that I want to read. It's too much of an effort to even do what I enjoy most of the time. I often go hungry all day because I'm too amotivated even to go to the d*mn refrigerator and make myself a lousy sandwich.

This amotivation comes and goes, I remember times where I could not even go brush my teeth, and then I've had times where I trained 4-5 hours per day for a couple of months with extreme motivation. Though these "motivated" periods are far and few inbetween. It took me 1.5 years of reading this forum before I actually had the motivation to make this post even though I've thought of doing it since I first browsed imminst. Naturally one would assume that I'm depressed but I don't feel depressed, not in the clinical illness sense anyways. Granted, I'm not as happy as I was a couple of years ago but I reckon that's from all the anxiety I get from realising how much time I've lost doing absolutely nothing. Perhaps I should add that my father is an asperger and I know a doctor who thinks I'm one too, though I don't feel like it.

Supplement wise I've tried lots of different things. Fishoil, DMAE, ortho mind, all the available 'racetams, S.S.R.I. Rhodiola Rosea yet these havn't helped me.

I emplore you, fellow transhumanists to help me with this. Just recommend anything, I'm getting really really desperate. I have a university test in 2 months that'll either make or break my dreams in becoming an M.D and I don't have the will to study. I just do nothing all day, sleep for many hours then never feel energetic. I really feel like sh*t because all of this.

Well thanks however you may respond.

[revnik]

You could try some basic stuff like waking-up earlier (I would suggest anywhere between 7 and 9 am) and/or try some stimulants (do you drink coffee?). Don't sleep more then 8.5 hours/day, make yourself realize that you only have one life and that you don't want to sleep it away.

Also try a motivational speaker or any kind of self-improvement tapes/books. Anthony Robbins has some great material...

[stargazer]

Thanks for the reply. Yeah I drink coffee, go up early in the morning and don't sleep too much. And I realize I want to do something with my life, I really do. I just don't know why I don't do it. It's like I have a will but my mental fatigue is too great.

[revnik]

Hmm ok. I'm a university-student myself and have had simular problems (less extreme). Some "hard-core"-nootropics probably will help you out. Modafinil is great BUT it's expensive stuff and illigal if you don't have a prescription.

Besides of that it might be worth the risk to take... Modalert, an idian-generic, is wildly available trough the net and shouldn't cost more than 1 dollar/pill (one 200mg pill should be enough to get you -fully motivated & energized- trough the day...)

[khanzas]

Do you smoke perchance?

You sound like me as a teenager tbh, just a bit more lazy. What you need is a good shock. I nearly failed my comp. sci. course (despite being born for it) because I was too lazy to turn in a French paper!!! Two years later I got an award for my thesis.

I have found my concentration / motivation to be a lot better recently. I'm the fittest I've ever been (I train 5 days a week, but with a goal in mind). Exercise really has an enormous number of benefits, but I think you need to train towards something. A good few times I've started, worked hard in the gym, then stopped two months later because it's so easy to not go. Now I'm training to get in the ring. Training to not get pummeled is great motivation. :D

Finally, there's good ol' William Shatner : "Live life like you're gonna die.....because you are."

[revnik]

Do you smoke perchance?

Good point. I found smoking weed can make me terribly un-motivated and de-energized the day after...

Exercise really has an enormous number of benefits

Also great point. Fitness has helped me allot! Any kind of sport is great to get your energy-balance up.

[stargazer]

No I don't smoke. I did nearly fail some of my classes, I did go through a shock. I felt horrible for a couple of week afterwards, really scared about my future life. it didn't help. I know if I don't do anything everything goes to shit. I do train on the gym 4-5 times a week. And I regularly train shootfighting/mma. These are the only things I'm able to endure. I know that life is not infinite (not yet), and I know I only got one chance and I do not feel immortal.

Revnik, do you think modafinil, deprenyl and tianeptine combo is a good idea? I really feel like I need something because I've really tried everything.

[niner]

I second the call for stimulants. In that vein, maybe you could try ALCAR with lipoic acid. The ALCAR seems to give everyone an energy boost. I would also revisit the SSRIs. They usually require some experimentation to find an agent and a dose that works well for you. I also think it would be worth it to find a good psychologist or psychiatrist. This may or may not be classic depression, though it sounds like a related condition at the very least. I hope you get it sorted out; let us know how it goes.

[Futurist1000]

Low serotonin is usually associated with sadness and depressive feelings, while dopamine/norepinephrine are associated more with apathy.

Apathy is usually the result of a hypofunctioning prefrontal cortex (specifically the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex). Increasing dopamine (and to a lesser extent norepinephrine and maybe serotonin) will usually improve symptoms. In the prefrontal cortex you have an abundance of D1 receptors and proper stimulation of these receptors is necessary for adequate symptom relief. With understimulation of the D1 receptor you get symptoms which are common in negative schizophrenia, parkinson's and depression. These symptoms include apathy, poor working memory, attention deficit, emotional blunting and low motivation. Also some of the norepinephrine receptors also play a role in this area as well (alpha-1?) and possibly serotonin (5-ht1a?).

I have the same problem that you do. I find that adderall (amphetamine) can be very helpful. For some people ritalin works, but the two drugs are very different and you might not respond to one but respond well to the other. I didn't like the way ritalin made me feel, but I found adderall was much better. For some people their response is the exact opposite of mine. Bupropion is a dopamine/norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor and can also work. Norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors by themselves could possibly work too (Atomoxetine, Reboxetine, Viloxazine, Maprotiline).

Amisulpride is an atypical antipsychotic. Low doses can actually increase dopamine by blocking D2 and D3 autoreceptors. It is very effective at lessening apathy and increasing motivation. It has been used to help both depressive symptoms and negative schizophrenia. Other atypical antipsychotics might also work as well but they probably have more side effects. Provigil and Modafinil could also be of utility as they stimulate alpha-1 norepinephrine receptors. A norepinephrine/do reuptake inhibitor like

If none of that works you could also try transcranial magnetic therapy at the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex. I know it is has been helpful for people with depression/schizophrenia to lessen their apathy. I don't know if that option is available to you in Sweden though.

Don't take an SSRI because any time you increase serotonin by itself, it tends to decrease dopamine/norepinephrine in the prefrontal cortex and could worsen your symptoms. However you could try buspirone. Buspirone targets the 5-ht1a receptor which is also found in abundance in the prefrontal cortex. It actually increases dopamine/norepinephrine in the prefrontal cortex unlike the other SSRI's. The antidepressant Mirtazapine blocks 5-ht2a and 5-ht2c and the alpha-2 receptors. This can also lead to an increase in dopamine/norepinephrine/serotonin in the prefrontal cortex. Unfortunately it can make you gain weight and feel drowzy.

I think Amisulpride is your best bet. Trying adderall and ritalin are also good first choices. If none of those work, then you can try the other stuff. It's difficult to raise dopamine/norepinephrine through "natural" means.

[FunkOdyssey]

Well here's the thing about amisulpride:

Neuro Endocrinol Lett. 2004 Dec;25(6):419-22.Links
    Hyperprolactinemia after low dose of amisulpride.
    Kopecek M, Bares M, Svarc J, Dockery C, Horácek J.

    Psychiatric Centre Prague, Czech Republic. kopecek@pcp.lf3.cuni.cz

    OBJECTIVES: Amisulpride in antipsychotic doses can induce hyperprolactinemia. The aim of this study was to prove whether the same is true for low doses of amisulpride. METHODOLOGY: Plasma prolactin levels were measured in 5 males and 5 females with depressive symptoms who were treated with 50 mg of amisulpride per day as an augmentation to antidepressants (n=5), benzodiazepine anxiolytics (n=8) or in monotherapy (n=1). Six of these patients were assessed prior to onset of amisulpride treatment and after 10 days of amisulpride use. Four patients had been using amisulpride for more than a month. RESULTS: There was a significant increase of prolactin levels from mean 16+/-6 ng/ml to 113+/-65 ng/ml (median 14.5 ng/ml to median 92 ng/ml; Wilcoxon matched pair test, p=0.027). All patients had hyperprolactinemia (30-200 ng/ml). The prolactinemia was significantly higher in females (mean 160+/-50 ng/ml; median 198 ng/ml) than in males (mean 48+/-12 ng/ml; median 48 ng/ml; Mann-Whitney U test, p=0.041). CONCLUSION: Even low doses of amisulpride used as an augmentation to antidepressant treatment, benzodiazepines or in monotherapy seem to be associated with hyperprolactinemia. The co-medication of antidepressants and benzodiazepines can potentially increase intensity of prolactinemia.

    PMID: 15665803 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Its hard to enjoy a motivational boost when you're growing man-boobs, lactating and have no libido. [tung]

Bupropion is a dopamine/norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor and can also work.

+1

15 Years of Clinical Experience With Bupropion (for full members)

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 09 August 2007 - 08:02 PM.

[Futurist1000]

"Its hard to enjoy a motivational boost when you're growing man-boobs, lactating and have no libido."

Well if you aren't motivated to get out and get exercise your probably going to have man boobs and low libido any way. If the first poster didn't even have the motivation to write on this forum for 1.5 years I don't know if he's going to worry about some of these things. Plus it's worth trying different doses of the amisulpride. 50 mg might be too much. Overall the side effect profile for amisulpride is fairly benign. I think women have many more problems with amisulpride than men do (on average).

Amisulpride and amineptine were found to be statistically superior to placebo (p < 0.0001) on the Clinical Global Impression (item 2): 63, 64 and 33% responders, respectively; improvement of Montgomery-Asberg Depression Rating Scale and Scale for the Assessment of Negative Symptoms scores following amisulpride or amineptine treatment was twice as high as with placebo (p < 0.0001). The adverse event profile of amisulpride was similar to that of placebo except for endocrine symptoms in female patients; amineptine showed mainly events linked to psychic activation (insomnia, nervousness). Results show that amisulpride can improve symptoms of chronic depression in dysthymia.

50 mg/day Amisulpride Abstract

[revnik]

Revnik, do you think modafinil, deprenyl and tianeptine combo is a good idea? I really feel like I need something because I've really tried everything.

I'm not really familiar with tianeptine but deprenyl might be a good idea in general. Modafinil should be powerfull enough to start off and I wouldn't suggest the combo when you don't have any experience with modafinil alone. Check out Modafinil cocktails. I wouldn't suggest combining coffee with modafinil (increased feelings of anxiety).

Deprenyl seems to potentiate the effects of modafinil for as far my experience goes but there's allot of controversy around this subject. Many wouldn't suggest this combo... Take it one step at a time and once you feel like the modafinil doesn't cut the job anymore (300mg+ dosage = ineffective) you could try the combo. Start off low: 100mg of modafinil + 2.5mg of deprenyl, evaluate, watch out for high blood pressure (bleeding nose). Also since you're only 19, go easy on the deprenyl (I would suggest taking it once every three days, max 10-15 mg/week).

Good luck & keep us updated [thumb]

[rebuild101]

stargazer,

Your problems with motivation and "mental fatigue" sound similar to mine -- sounds almost like brain fog. While I'm still working it out here's a couple other things you might want to consider in addition to what those above have stated:

1) Have you had any recent blood work done to check for testosterone and thyroid function?
2) Look into L-Tyrosine and DLPA (DL-phenylalanine) for boosting dopamine
3) Find a good doc that performs QEEG testing. This can help pinpoint ADD, depression, and/or sleeping disorders. I have a friend in Sweden that tells me they do those tests over there.

You may also want to look into Sluggish Cognitive Tempo -- a relatively new (though not official) subtype of ADD. I don't know how the phyciatrist scene is over there, but if you go that route, I would try to get a referal from another doctor you trust. Here in the states, there are some psychiatrists that have a bad reputation but are still prescribing medicine.

Let us know how it goes!

[revnik]

Look into L-Tyrosine and DLPA (DL-phenylalanine) for boosting dopamine

Watch out for these when you're about to experiment with MAO-inhibitors (deprenyl etc) because of potentiated effects.

[EmbraceUnity]

Even though it may seem obvious, nobody mentioned green tea or cocoa, yet those are very very important in my opinion.

[stargazer]

Here's an update, I've decided to get some amphetamine and try that for a while. Probably at a 20mg dose ED or EOD so I wont develop tolerance and get addicted. I've tried almost every supplement out there and I think it's time to try something that has been proven to work. Thanks for all the input guys/girls

[purerealm]

do NOT use amphetamine for motivation. you'll be worse off in the long run, i'm speaking from experience

[ajnast4r]

amphetamine is a horrible idea

its time to seek professional help

[graatch]

No it's not.

It's effective in something like 80% of ADD/ADHD cases, when taken as prescribed.

But don't just acquire it and take it, seek professional help.

Stargazer: Is the selegiline patch available in Sweden?

I ask because this is an angle I'm currently exploring. The MAOI in (adult) ADD symptomology.

[purerealm]

You may also want to look into Sluggish Cognitive Tempo -- a relatively new (though not official) subtype of ADD. 
Let us know how it goes!

so... that's what I have.

[stargazer]

So, I have a few more questions. I'm gonna start dosing at 30mg amphetamine ED for 5 days then take 2 days off and repeat for two months. Does this sound like a good plan? Also, at what dosage does amphetamine become neurotoxic? And lastly, does anyone know of a good way to extract the amphetamine? (I buy street-amphetamine) The good 'ol methanol way perhaps?

[revnik]

Dude, sorry to say so but that plan sounds absolutly horrible! Amphetamine's are higly addictive and very unreliable (street-form) as far as toxicity goes. Not to mansion that it'll be a very expensive joke and you'll probably build up tolerance quiete fast (so you'll need even higher dosages including higher risks).

It's definitly no constructive solution for the long run and I would suggest to consult a doctor or
at least reconsider Modafinil.

[ajnast4r]

so you are self medicating with STREET AMPHETAMINE...
this honestly takes the cake as the STUPIDEST thing i have ever heard on this forum.

not only is it a bad idea to self medicate with any form of amphetamine, but with pharmaceutical amphetamine (adderall etc) being very readily available, even with no script... the fact that you would go buy meth... it just BLOWS MY MIND. honestly im dumbfounded...

quit being an idiot and go see a doctor... jesus

[stargazer]

Well it's impossible to get modafinil if you don't have narcolepsy in Sweden, so that's out. I've also tried modafinil in spain and it didn't help alleviate any of my symptoms.
Secondly, I'll purify my amphetamine to remove all the waste products and amphetamine is hardly expensive here either. And it's not meth, we basically don't have meth here, just the dextroamph and levo version.

Oh and adderall (amphetamine) isn't an approved drug here either so I can't get pharmaceutical grade either..

[revnik]

Trying adderall and ritalin are also good first choices. If none of those work, then you can try the other stuff.

Have you considered Rilatin or Concerta (methylphenidate)?

[ajnast4r]

Well it's impossible to get modafinil if you don't have narcolepsy in Sweden, so that's out. I've also tried modafinil in spain and it didn't help alleviate any of my symptoms.
Secondly, I'll purify my amphetamine to remove all the waste products and amphetamine is hardly expensive here either. And it's not meth, we basically don't have meth here, just the dextroamph and levo version.

Oh and adderall (amphetamine) isn't an approved drug here either so I can't get pharmaceutical grade either..

[!] [!] [!] [!] [!] [!] [!] [!] [!] [!]
you are talking about producing amphetamine at home...
am i the only one that see the RIDICULOUSNESS of this?

honestly this post should be deleted because stuff like this gives imminst a bad name... you are obviously NOT listening to the good advice that is being given to you.

[stargazer]

Well it's impossible to get modafinil if you don't have narcolepsy in Sweden, so that's out. I've also tried modafinil in spain and it didn't help alleviate any of my symptoms.
Secondly, I'll purify my amphetamine to remove all the waste products and amphetamine is hardly expensive here either. And it's not meth, we basically don't have meth here, just the dextroamph and levo version.

Oh and adderall (amphetamine) isn't an approved drug here either so I can't get pharmaceutical grade either..

[!] [!] [!] [!] [!] [!] [!] [!] [!] [!]
you are talking about producing amphetamine at home...
am i the only one that see the RIDICULOUSNESS of this?

honestly this post should be deleted because stuff like this gives imminst a bad name... you are obviously NOT listening to the good advice that is being given to you.

You really aren't listening, no I'm not gonna produce my own amphetamine, I'm just gonna extract it from the impurities using methanol. It's basic chemistry, not like I've started an UG-lab here. Amphetamine are used with good success for people who have ADHD/symptoms that I have. I've read the studies on primates showing neurotoxicity and I'm gonna stay under the dose that produce those results. I'm also gonna try bupropion (sp? It's called Zyban in Sweden) and see how that works out before I start taking amphetamines. I really don't see how this is more ridiculous than taking adderall for ADHD/ADD. And also you have no idea (I think, otherwise tell me so) how I feel and how much other medication I've tried to fix this problem of mine without any success.

Purerealm, do you think taking microdoses (10-20mg) of amphetamine will lower my endogenous dopamine to such a low level that I'll actually be worse when I go off?

Graatch, I've sought professional, been to a psychiatrist and all. They thought I was depressed, but me on SSRI for over a year. Didn't help.

Revnik, Aye I'll try ritalin/concerta before I try the amphetamine if you think it's a valid option. Thank you very much.

[FunkOdyssey]

I'm also gonna try bupropion (sp? It's called Zyban in Sweden) and see how that works out before I start taking amphetamines.

That's a much better idea.

[rebuild101]

[ I've sought professional, been to a psychiatrist and all. They thought I was depressed, but me on SSRI for over a year. Didn't help.

Even if Adderall isn't available in Sweden, there's plenty of other options as some have pointed out: Dexedrine, Rilatin, Concerta, and Stratera (sp?) just to name a few.

If your doc is completely bent on saying you're depressed, see if he's willing to prescribe Wellbutrin. That is NOT an SSRI antidepressant and has known to be quite stimulating. Hopefully your doc is open to reason -- SSRIs don't work so it's time to try something different!

Seriously, man, whatever you do, don't turn to street drugs. You're obviously bright enough to research and seek some help...why waste it? Is it possible to find a different psychiatrist, perhaps?

EDIT: Whoops, just realized bupropion/Zyban IS Wellbutrin! Good choice

[ajnast4r]

purifying street amph at home is no different in my eyes than making your own. its still incredibly dangerous.

it wouldn't be that hard to have a friend in another country middle man you some adderall... im also gonna 3rd the advice on trying bupropion. i think you will find norepinephrine/dopamine uptake inhibitors considerably more stimulating & motivating than any ssri... a good place to start before moving into amphetamines.

dont blow this off, but have you tried a pharma grade rhodiola extract? swedish herbal instituite makes one called rosenrot that would be worth trying, and should be pretty readily available to you considering your location.