91 replies to this topic

[Live Forever]

The second installment has been added to the first post in this thread, but I'll put it in this post as well:

Part 2 (entitled "The Irrational Health Service ")



http://video.google....927014381716642

[Live Forever]

Also, I submitted it to digg. Give it a digg if you please:
http://digg.com/vide...emies_of_Reason


Edit: Fixed link

Edited by Live Forever, 22 August 2007 - 04:43 AM.

[Aegist]

Cool.
I liked the line right near the end:
"Ours is the golden age of safe tested medicine, effective beyond placebo, in which we've cut infant mortality and conquered diseases... then forgotten they existed."

[JonesGuy]

Someone should tell Kelly (a commenter) that any 3rd year science student would be able to shred Hovind's "science". Not PhD, not a masters student, but a regular person on their way to a B.Sc.

[Live Forever]

Someone should tell Kelly (a commenter) that any 3rd year science student would be able to shred Hovind's "science".  Not PhD, not a masters student, but a regular person on their way to a B.Sc.

I don't even know why they would bring up creationism. This program has nothing to do with creationism.

[JonesGuy]

Hovind has a determined fan club. They see Dawkins as Hovind's opposite (but peer): I think 'lol' sufficies to answer that.

[RighteousReason]

"Science has become so arrogant in its premise that it has all the answers in the mechanistic approach that while it has gotten rid of lots of things like polio and malaria and tuberculosis in many parts of the world, we are now seeing the emergence of modern epidemics that are the result of some of the things that have come about through science" - Deepak Chopra


that Hillary Clinton supports this fool is so perfectly fitting you couldn't even make that up...

[Live Forever]

that Hillary Clinton supports this fool is so perfectly fitting you couldn't even make that up...

She did vote to authorize the war which would indicate a certain level of gullibility.

[RighteousReason]

certain level of gullibility.

Don't be so ridiculously superficial.

[Live Forever]

Don't be so ridiculously superficial.

I certainly hope you were joking with the superficial comment, but if not, being beguiled into believing a huckster like this and being beguiled into believing the reasons for a war which just about everyone now agrees was a mistake both are related in the vein of showing how easily she buys into something. This was what (I thought) you were trying to get at. (how easy it is to get her to believe something)

[RighteousReason]

This was what (I thought) you were trying to get at.

Fucking, God, No.

[RighteousReason]

I'm getting at the underlying idea of "Enemies of Reason"

I'm sorry it is difficult for me to explain

[Live Forever]

I'm getting at the underlying idea of "Enemies of Reason"

I'm sorry it is difficult for me to explain

Aaah, ok. I apologize. I'll still maintain that she is gullible though. (not just for what was in the video, but for a variety of reasons; but then again I am not a big fan of hers, so my view might be tainted)

[Liquidus]

I don't even know why they would bring up creationism. This program has nothing to do with creationism.

I think people have become familiar with Dawkins' usual attacks at creationism, that people associate anything he says as an attack on creationism, even if he's trying to point out logical observations about completely unrelated things. But I agree, why the bring up creationism is a bit irrelevant to this particular series. We're all pretty aware of Dr. Dawkins' feelings and views on creationism if you've ever caught any of his online lectures/debates.

[Live Forever]

Does anyone think that there is any value in the placebo effect which Dawkins acknowledges at one point might be more prone to affect people that go to see these types of people? (resulting from the increased human contact and such, presumably) I thought the homeopathic doctor was an especially good example of this.

Or, does the harm outweigh the good?

Edited by Live Forever, 22 August 2007 - 11:23 PM.

[eternaltraveler]

homeopathy is good insofar as doctors can prescribe water to people who are clamoring for antibiotics for their cold )

[Aegist]

Does anyone think that there is any value in the placebo effect which Dawkins acknowledges at one point might be more prone to affect people that go to see these types of people? (resulting from the increased human contact and such, presumably) I thought the homeopathic doctor was an especially good example of this.

Or, does the harm outweigh the good?

Of course there is value in the Placebo affect. I dare say that the placebo effect is in fact one of the best medicines available to the human race. Don't think that placebo means "you just think you are getting better, but you actually aren't", the placebo affect ACTUALLY results in an improvement. It is limited by the bodies own defence abilities (so it probably can't cure you of aids, or serious cancers, or amputated limbs but it certainly does assist your bodies natural defences.

And I think that is why people get so adicted to 'alternative' bs. When you go see an alternative healer, they proclaim you healed. They use the pseudo science garbage, they say the magic words, the make the magic motions and then they pronounce you cured. Real doctors are never so absolute. They use more realistic language like "This might make you feel better", or they flat out admit, "There is nothing we can do for you, but if you take some painkillers, that might help" and (HONEST) stuff like that. So they unfortunately, through honesty, miss out on using one of the strongest medicines we have: the power of our own immune system and healing.

[mike250]

Does anyone think that there is any value in the placebo effect which Dawkins acknowledges at one point might be more prone to affect people that go to see these types of people? (resulting from the increased human contact and such, presumably) I thought the homeopathic doctor was an especially good example of this.

Or, does the harm outweigh the good?

I think that the basic patient-doctor relationship generally speaking, is just straight to the point and honest and I think that some people just don't want to hear or can't accept the fact that they've got a life-threatening disease- which is the reality- . The placebo effect just gives a more positive outlook on things I suppose, and positive ideas and optimistic thoughts are a crucial part of healing.

[JonesGuy]

That's a good point: some people might be more prone to benefiting from the placebo. I'd recon, though, that some people are just more easily fooled into thinking they're special.

[william7]

and positive ideas and optimistic thoughts are a crucial part of healing

Like helping others as recent research has discovered. http://health.msn.co...entid=100167285

[Live Forever]

I'd recon, though, that some people are just more easily fooled into thinking they're special.

That is why stuff like this is (apparently) available for purchase:

[Liquidus]

This is going to sound a bit paradoxical, but I genuinely think that one you realize that you aren't special, and that there are 6 Billion + other human beings who can challenge my 'uniqueness', I think once you learn that you aren't special, you can actually overcome anything you want, since it's plain to see that if another human being can do something, there is no excuse as to why you cannot do the same yourself (and beyond).

My tainted point is that by realizing that you're actually not special, you might be able to let go of your 'specialness' and do something productive or special. You're not special, but what you do, and how you act/carry yourself can be called special if appropriate.

[Live Forever]

This is going to sound a bit paradoxical, but I genuinely think that one you realize that you aren't special, and that there are 6 Billion + other human beings who can challenge my 'uniqueness', I think once you learn that you aren't special, you can actually overcome anything you want, since it's plain to see that if another human being can do something, there is no excuse as to why you cannot do the same yourself (and beyond).

My tainted point is that by realizing that you're actually not special, you might be able to let go of your 'specialness' and do something productive or special. You're not special, but what you do, and how you act/carry yourself can be called special if appropriate.

I guess you could look at it like everyone is special, so no one deserves to die, which is why we need to cure aging.

[Luna]

http://www.1111angels.com/

:D

[Live Forever]

http://www.1111angels.com/

:D

Oh goodness gracious. The funniest thing is I think they are actually serious.

[Luna]

Hey Live Forever, may I boost my psychic powers on you? yes? thanks.

Ok, I see that you are.. quite a thinker..
You like to work on problems, find solutions.

You are very skeptical and have a straight line of thinking, but you are open to possibilities as long as they don't stretch too far.

You have some sort of code which you follow.

And best but not least, and I "TOTALLY" didn't get it from your name or the forum, you want to live forever or at least have the option to!

So how did I do?

As we know, psychic only works if the person being "read" wants it to work.
And even then it dosen't really work, they just believe it did..
"I can see a dog."
"Nah I don't have a dog.. But my neighbour has one."
"Yeah, that's it."

[Athan]

http://www.1111angels.com/

:D

Well it must be true!

"What proof have you got?

George has been dealing with these guys for over 50 years. He sees them, and talks to them. Mostly he sees with his spiritual eyes, but there have been cases of physical manifestation as well. You could not expect a psych (George) to believe in the voices in his head if they did not turn up physically, could you? They have played a major role in his entire life, and some of his experiences are detailed in his books" ( http://www.1111spiri.../whatis1111.htm )

[huh]

That has to be a joke site. If not...I'd be very sad for those people.

[Luna]

I seen even more sad things.. I will try to find the link again.

[Luna]

It's funny looking for them.. there was a really crazy one but I lost it :(

Best is.. start with the free will ones! YAHOO! (tbh, it's the funniest and most stupid site ever if you want to find something even close to the real world):
http://ph.answers.ya...15201032AA8nuu6

And for the rest..

http://jksalescompan...rit_guides.html

http://www.pamelaheath.com/suicide.htm

http://www.psychic.c...irit-guides.htm

http://skepdic.com/essays/radin.html

http://www.oberf.org/

http://en.allexperts...pirit-guide.htm

http://www.federman.com/rfsrcr2.htm

http://www.angelfire...iritguides.html

http://www.angelfire...eaks/index.html

http://stargatepress...rticle.php?id=2

[eldar]

Question for the navigators:

Why aren't these threads containing video material moved under Videos & Multimedia?

There have been many great videos posted lately and they all eventually get buried away somewhere never to be found again.
If they were all gathered under Videos & Multimedia category they could be found a lot easier.