41 replies to this topic

[suspire]

cnorwood, LiveForever: I see what both of you are saying and it is a fair argument. People want to continue to live. Makes sense. All I am saying is that in terms of cost versus effectiveness, etc, it probably makes more sense to focus your time and money into alternative life extension research. My fear is that a scatter-shot approach undermines us rather than strengthens us. But I've given my opinions on it and each person will come to their own conclusions as it fits their current situation and outlook on life and society.

My own plan is to donate what money I can to very specific life extension research and hope it'll pan out before I die(I suspect I've got at least another 50 years to go, if not more, considering how long lived my family members have been). If it doesn't come by then, my money goes to family and specific charities, and organs go to donor banks.

Fair enough. You should definitely put your money and efforts towards the things that you think are most worthy in your eyes. Cryonics (like most other medical options) should be optional. I do find it funny that some people would spend a couple hundred thousand dollars (through insurance) for an open heart surgery or other big surgery, but would think $80,000 for a cryonic suspension (also through insurance) was outlandish.

I think it is, once again, a cost/effectiveness ratio. Some people, like myself, don't think there will be any pay off for cryonics and even if there is, the end result may not be what we'd like once revived. Putting my life insurance towards other pursuits I believe in makes more sense. On the other hand, surgery while you are alive has much more quantifiable results that a lot of people find worth it(though some people, especially without insurance, opt out of this, rather than incuring debt for themselves or their family).

[bgwowk]

Out of the entire field of life extension, none strikes me as self-interested(read: selfish), as cryonics.

What of premiums paid for organic produce? Supplements? Gym memberships? Why of all things people spend money on in expectation of personal health benefit do you single out *cryonics* as the most selfish? That is completely arbitrary.

But hey, if you don't have kids or care to leave them money, and if you don't care to donate to the scientific fields of study that will revive you from the dead, but hope to passively reap the benefits of it all the same, so be it.

That's a negative stereotype with no bearing on reality. For most people cryonics is just a living expense, like health insurance, but cheaper. It's not something into which you throw all your worldly possessions! People signed up for cryonics not only leave their children inheritances, but sign up their children for cryonics too.

Still, if you're sold on this ultimate selfish form of life-extension, I have to wonder why you think any future generation would be less selfish than you. I mean, if you've used all your money and effort for personal cryonic stasis...

Nobody does that!

Cryonics, all told, strikes me as the apex of narcissism.

Would you go into a cancer clinic and tell someone undergoing last-ditch chemotherapy, someone whose life and works you didn't even know, that they are being narcissistic for not giving the money to charity instead? Of course not.

[suspire]

Gym membership, organic produce, supplements = noticeable, immediate results for yourself and by extension your family, and potentially society(as in your not a health burden on society, etc).

Cryonics: None of the above.

Cyronics cost: Wow, it's so cheap, and yet, it also promises to cover all costs for the stasis process, maintenance and revival, plus various unforseen obstacles/costs. Fantastic.

Money to children: My understanding is most folks are using their life insurance money to cover at least part of their costs. Life insurance money that does not go to their children. I'm sure their kids appreciate that.

Experimental chemotherapy: Whether it works or not, science is advanced from the results.

Cyronics: You end up with a frozen body or head. Do we get to experiment on them? If so, then yep, definitely a benefit to science and society!

If you want to argue that cryonics is not an exercise in narcissim, that's fine. I'm just not buying it.

Anyway, I've said just about all I've got to say on this topic. If there is a substantial debate and discussion on the merits of Alcor/cryonics and its impact for society as a whole, I'll read it with interest. In turn, I hope at least some people have considered the alternate points of view I've raised.

Edited by suspire, 22 August 2007 - 03:18 AM.

[Liquidus]

I'm not sure if anyone might know the answer to this, it's more of a legal question. If I were to be admitted into Alcor tomorrow if I 'died' but was still able to be put into suspension, would my rights seize to exist? Would my bank accounts be shut down?

If I had put some money into something with decent compound interest, even if I was frozen, technically shouldn't I be able to use all the money in that account if it takes 100 years for cryonics patience to be reanimated? The interest would likely make the account worth a lot in that time span, and it could cover the costs while you were in suspension, and you didn't even have to move a muscle for 100 years to get it.

[bgwowk]

Gym membership, organic produce, supplements = noticeable, immediate results for yourself and by extension your family, and potentially society(as in your not a health burden on society, etc).

So immediate results is the test? People here consume hundreds, in some case thousands, of dollars a year on supplements with no evidence of benefit on any time scale, never mind immediate. The benefits in most cases, especially for chemoprevention agents, is theoretical. So again, singling out cryonics for criticism is a double standard, especially if your criterion is societal impact because the sums of money involved in cryonics are dwarfed by the supplement industry.

Cryonics: None of the above.

On the contrary. There is one indisputable immediate benefit of cryonics: It prevents the medical condition of a patient from deteriorating below a certain level, and holds the patient in that condition indefinitely. It therefore creates the option of carrying the patient forward in time, an option that would otherwise be unavailable.

Cyronics cost: Wow, it's so cheap, and yet, it also promises to cover all costs for the stasis process, maintenance and revival, plus various unforseen obstacles/costs. Fantastic.

"Promise" is your stereotype, not reality. Cryonics is not a machine into which you throw your body and your money. It is a community. To whatever extent individually allocated resources are not adequate, the idea will stand or fall based on the strength of the community.

Money to children: My understanding is most folks are using their life insurance money to cover at least part of their costs. Life insurance money that does not go to their children. I'm sure their kids appreciate that.

That's selective application of standards again. You will in your lifetime spend far more on entertainment than cryonics costs. Will your kids appreciate that you didn't put all your movie, restaurant, satellite TV, and hobby costs into a trust fund for them instead? I know my kids would be devastated if for some reason I couldn't be cryopreserved when I needed it.

Experimental chemotherapy: Whether it works or not, science is advanced from the results.

I believe I said last-ditch chemotherapy, not experimental chemotherapy. Survival statistics are well known for standard regimens, making the scientific contribution from therapy rounds given for the sake of hope practically negligible, if they are even recorded at all. Let's not kid ourselves. People, insurance companies, governments and thereby society as a whole sometimes pay lots of money to try to save individual lives when chances are slim to none.

Anyway, I've said just about all I've got to say on this topic.

That's too bad. I was just getting started.

[Luna]

suspire, seriously, what's wrong with you?
You're ok for life extension but not ok for cryonics cause "it's too selfish"?
Wtf?
Like people pay for life extension and still have money to give for their kids, same story with cryonics.

If people now have less chance to stay alive until the treatment, what the hell is wrong with them going to suspended animation until they can be revived? what's so selfish about that?

The cryonics are alright cause they are doing it for people and increasing their chance to survive.

But the members are selfish cause they freeze themselves with money which they could give to other people, in order for their own survival?
And btw, most of the members do BOTH.

Aubrey de Grey is doing ALOT for the community, for you, me and everyone else with his work.

If you are against cryonics, you're against Aubrey's chances of survival too.
Why not go against immortality period then?

Cryonics is just a safety net to avoid death.
It's not more or less selfish than paying for rejuvenation therapies, life insurance, heart treatment or even painkillers.

Hell, why do we pay for painkillers? pain passes, people in africa starve to death, let's donate the money to those poor guys.

Why do I need a new hard drive, some family in Africa is DYING, that's so selfish for me to increase my computer's capabilities instead of donating money to save those kids!

[Luna]

Suspire, here's the ultimate question for you.
Let's say your father is at the end of his life now.
Will you rather take his money for your own personal use or would you like to give your father a chance to survive and put him into whatever can maybe save him, like, cryonics?

You've fallen to the double edged sword right now.

[cryofan]

1. Most of us here probaly wont need to fall back on cryonics for another 20-30 or more years

Well hello there
My, it's been a long, long time
And how am I doing?
Well, I guess that I'm doing fine
It's been been so long now, but it seems like it was only yesterday
Gee, ain't it funny, how time slips away.

And how's your new love?
Well, I hope that he's doin fine
I heard you told him, that you'd love him till the end of time
It's been so long now
But it seems like only yesterday
Gee, ain't it funny, how time just slips away.

Well I gotta go now
And I guess I'll see you around
But I dont know when though
Cause you never know when I'll be back in town
But remember, what I told you
That in time your gonna pay
And it's suprising, how time slips away.

Gee, ain't it funny, how time just slips away







/thanks to willie

[marcopolo]

2) ...then what? How do you fit in? I mean, you'd be a curiosity in the new world. You would be to the new world as someone from medieval Europe would be to now.

I feel like I don't really fit into the present world anyway. In fact sometimes I look around and think of the current world perhaps like most people from nowadays would think if they went back to medieval Europe. Sure it isn't stinky and smelly, and we don't live in mud huts in the western world, but I think in absolute terms we still live in a barbaric dark age for the most part even though people would like to believe they are so much more civilized and "enlightened" from the dark ages. True, most people don't believe in witches or go around boiling people to death anymore, but many people are still just as intolerant of those who have different viewpoints(why else would Imminst have to walk on pins and needles regarding public perception?), and there is still no shortage of people willing to kill you because of their religion, and people still kill each other all the time over the stupidest things, and if you don't believe me go teach at an inner city school for a year. There really is no shortage of barbarism, death, and cruelty in the modern world, it is not just as "in your face" as it was in the Middle Ages. Instead of going to the weekly stake burnings at the town square we watch CNN and FOX news. There are no cripples or lepers begging at the town gates, nor are there bodies being hauled away in carts due to plague. Instead the the dead and dying are quietly swept out of sight and out of mind into hospitals and nursing homes. And this is in the West, to say nothing of places like Africa and the Middle East. Okay, I am exaggerating a bit comparing the modern world to the middle ages, but I am not having one of my better days today either so maybe I will feel different in the morning LOL.
It actually occurred to me today that perhaps part of the lure of cryonics for those who want it is that they really don't feel they fit in well in our present day society, and they wish to be revived into a better, more enlightened world of the future where the prevailing attitudes will hopefully more closely resemble their own world view(given that future doesn't occur in their lifetime). I am by no means saying that is the entire reason, but it may play into it, in which case your argument will fall on deaf ears if you are appealing to people who have already made this decision.

We'd be so behind the curve it may be entirely impossible to fit in and learn what was required of us. Especially in the highly specialized world we live in. If you extrapolate on current trends of technology, the "new world's" technology might be akin to magic to today's man. There is a reason why people hypothosize that science is our new religion and scientists are our new high priests. In the future, they may be the only ones able to communicate with our "gods"(of scientific understanding/technology). Our ability to grasp it and fit in would be negligible.

Since you are basing your argument on the assumption of extrapolating future technologies, if you extrapolate current trends in technology, you get Ray Kurzweil's vision of the future. This means that you would only need a brain implant or something, to learn everything you will need to know.

I can see worse things than death. Maybe we'll be used as indefinite "slave/bonded labor" to repay our debts to society upon being revived(don't think this is likely?--most of the world still uses this system, including such economic "giants" as India and China), maybe our organs will be harvested, maybe we'll be put in a zoo as an exhibit. Or being revived in a semi-zombie-like state due to damage to the brain(yes, I've read Alcor's bit about not reviving without being sure that they can "fix" you, but pardon my skepticism--I've yet to see a major, experimental medical procedure happen that hasn't failed dozens of times initially and continue to fail frequently down the road). While some of you may argue there is no fate worse than death, I'm of the school of thought that there are fates worse than death.

*IF* technology becomes advanced enough, I am more optimistic that such a society will not be like what you describe here, or it is highly unlikely. A civilization that is advanced enough to revive cryonics patients will more likely than not have robots to do all the slave labor, they will certainly have no need to make you into a slave. If the world does go to hell in a handbasket it is unlikely you would be revived anyway. In this case, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. To not do it because of some far fetched possibility that is IMO significantly less likely than revival, strikes me as the ultimate in risk aversion, and the winners in life are generally those who are willing to take some risks.

Edited by marcopolo, 19 September 2007 - 09:03 AM.

[Shannon Vyff]

I was recently traveling and had the opportunity to talk to more people than my regular circle of friends, and it is always interesting if the fact that I'm a signed cryonicist comes up. Most people are intrigued by the idea and are quite receptive-- a few discount off hand due to the money 'selfish' factor, coupled with their belief that it would never work. I know I can come to ImmInst to be with people 'like me' (futurists, life extension advocates), I also can come here to challenge my own views...

"Money to children: My understanding is most folks are using their life insurance money to cover at least part of their costs. Life insurance money that does not go to their children. I'm sure their kids appreciate that.

Experimental chemotherapy: Whether it works or not, science is advanced from the results.

Cyronics: You end up with a frozen body or head. Do we get to experiment on them? If so, then yep, definitely a benefit to science and society!

If you want to argue that cryonics is not an exercise in narcissim, that's fine. I'm just not buying it."


This thread is a nice exploration of the view espousing the selfishness of cryonics. My children are getting plenty of money from my life insurance, but I'm hoping that they will be self sufficient in life and not really needing my money. I give way more to non profits that help with ending hunger and inequality in the world, than I do to life extension...and currently I expect I'll keep things balanced that way as I age. I along with most other humans, hope to make more money someday and work for that--I'd love to give more than I do now. If cryonics works, I can give more in the future, if I don't like how the society is, or feel there is no place for me --I have the same option to end my life, that I do at any point now.

I was chatting with an ImmInst member a few weeks ago, who wants her husband to sign up for cryonics--his concern was the money and she is hoping to yet for him to sign with her, as it effects her ability to be a signed member... I find the issue of money to be such a small concern especially when one looks at all the money people spend for the various things they don't really need in life. Well, it is nice to have a place where people can have these discussions... I hope that ImmInst will ultimately be of benefit to society to those that it effects. Perhaps when reading through this thread she will get some ideas to share with her husband

[salyavin]

I have trouble understanding why people feel entitled to their parents assets and wait for them to die. As I told my father "You gave me life and raised me, you don't owe me any more don't worry about how much you will leave me when you die." From my viewpoint it is a form of nasty greed on the offspring's part to be worried about how much they are left when their parent dies.

[AdamSummerfield]

One other situation of concern is the possibility that political and social issues on cryonics may get out of hand, for some unseeable reason while you are in animation (should you need it). It may lead to plugs getting pulled.