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Large Hadron Collider


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#1 biknut

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Posted 18 August 2007 - 12:06 AM


According to the most accurate scientific theory ever created—known as the standard model—all of space is filled with a mysterious stuff called the Higgs field. Unlike magnetic or gravitational fields, which vary from place to place (things weigh more here than on the surface of the moon, for instance), the Higgs field is exactly the same everywhere. What varies is how the different fundamental particles interact with it. That interaction, the theory goes, is what gives particles mass. In a nutshell, the Higgs field is what makes some particles (like protons and neutrons) relatively heavy, others (like electrons) subatomic lightweights, and still others (like photons) utterly massless. If photons weren’t so light, you’d be shredded by a photon hailstorm every time you lazed under a sunbeam. Then again, if protons and neutrons weren’t so heavy, you wouldn’t be there to sunbathe anyway: Without mass and its affinity for gravity, there’d be no galaxies, no stars, no us.

How does the Higgs work this magic? British theoretician John Ellis likens the Higgs field to a flat field of snow. Try to get across it in hiking boots and you will sink in and take forever. Snowshoes would be faster, and with skis you could glide across the field swiftly and easily. In the parlance of physics, “slow” is another way of saying “heavy.” So by analogy, your mass depends on some fundamental physics attribute, equivalent to snowshoes or skis, that affects how a particular type of particle passes through the Higgs field.

The Higgs boson is supposed to be the endower of this attribute; it is what determines if a particle can glide along effortlessly like a photon or if it must trudge like a hefty proton. The trouble is that nobody knows exactly what a Higgs boson is like or even if it really exists. It must be extremely heavy, or other lower-energy facilities, like Fermilab outside Chicago, would already have detected it. But it cannot be too heavy, or the theories that predict its existence would not work.

By design, the LHC is the first accelerator capable of exploring the full range of energies within which the Higgs boson is thought to exist. If the LHC finds the Higgs, it will verify the last, grandest aspect of the standard model and solve the ancient question of just what mass is. If the LHC fails to find the Higgs, the standard model will have to be reevaluated from the ground up. At stake is a fundamental part of our understanding of how the universe works.


http://discovermagaz...hing-in-physics

#2 Live Forever

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Posted 18 August 2007 - 12:40 AM

For a fairly interesting Google TechTalks video with someone working on the Large Hadron Collider, see this: http://www.imminst.o...f=9&t=16656&hl=
Just fyi for anyone interested.

#3 Luna

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Posted 18 August 2007 - 08:12 AM

Sounds like advanced computer designing O_o

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#4 spins

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Posted 27 August 2007 - 01:03 AM

The end of the world is nigh!

The LHC is certainly the going to be biggest jump into the unknown yet for physicists, I personally can't wait for it to be switched on, although it has been delayed and will be sometime mid next year now. Also they are going to slowly ramp up the power just to test the system out and avoid any black holes, just kidding on that last bit. [lol]

One of my favourite episode's of the BBC's Horizon in recent times was the one about the LHC, it's been uploaded to Google video and you can watch it here...

The Six Billion Dollar Experiment

...it's almost as good as the Death Star episode, but not quite. [thumb]

#5 Liquidus

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Posted 27 August 2007 - 01:25 AM

I remember hearing that phrase 'a golf-ball is more likely to consume the planet than the LHC' (in response to the kooks who associate them creating a black-hole with a black-hole swallowing the Earth. Unless the greatest human minds are all wrong, it should be a landmark day for humanity, I can't wait!

#6 Live Forever

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Posted 27 August 2007 - 02:16 AM

spins, thanks for those links, mate. That seems like a great series. I'll have to check out other ones they have done.

#7 eternaltraveler

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Posted 27 August 2007 - 02:27 AM

even if a black hole is created, and it doesn't evaporate, it would not swallow the earth. As has been gone into ad nausem even if matter flowed into it at the speed of light it would not be able to consume much of anything as it's diameter would be exceedingly small.

#8 Luna

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Posted 27 August 2007 - 07:26 AM

And if it WILL consume the earth, it won't be much of a diffrence.
Sure, everyone will die (ok, that's alittle depressing..) but the blackhole will keep orbiting the sun taking earth's place!

#9 Andrew Shevchuk

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 12:54 AM

The quest to find the Higgs boson is an interesting dilemma for physicists. This is really the last piece of the puzzle that the standard model predicts (remember it doesn't include gravity) and so physicists want to find the Higgs because it can answer a lot of questions and validate that model. At the same time, there is some risk that the Higgs will be the last major particle discovered for a long time; if supersymmetry is incorrect then we may not find the heavier supersymmetric particles. While this would provide valuable constraints for future theories, the failure of the LHC to find heavier particles than the Higgs would not be seen as a positive point for publicity and funding. Another possibility is a failure to find the Higgs, and while this means back to square one for a lot of theories, it guarantees that there is still plenty of progress to be made in our understanding of the universe.

As for the risks involved in such experiments, I think the opinions of people that really understand the science and its implications favor doing these collisions over the minute probability of disaster. Paranoia will easily blow things out of proportion, and the risks of AI and such are far greater than a particle physics experiment.

#10 biknut

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 07:04 PM

To bad the government in their infinite wisdom decided to kill the Super Conducting Super Collider. It was going to be even bigger than the LCH. At a motorcycle rally in Waco, I had the privilege of meeting some of the scientists working on the project before it got canned. A lot of them had beards and rode Harleys.

#11 AdamSummerfield

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 08:02 PM

I cannot wait until the LHC is switched on. Here are a few of it's features:

-Able to produce objects 10,000 times smaller than a proton
-27km in diametre
-Protons race within it at 14 trillion electron volts, at 99.999999% the velocity of light in an environment approaching absolute zero
-Generating a magnetic field of 8.3 teslas (Earth = 0.000051 teslas)
-Powered by electromagnets with 12,000 amperes surging through them, each being 1,232 metres long

Can't wait for the stones it'll upturn on the Higg's boson and maybe other exotic forms of matter.

- Sezarus

#12 Luna

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 09:24 PM

Ohh.. DOOM!!!
Err I mean.. COOL!

Yeah, I can't wait for the results.

#13 biknut

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 07:00 PM

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit over collider

Critics worry about mini-black holes, strangelets; experts reject claims

By Alan Boyle
Science editor
MSNBC
updated 10:23 a.m. CT, Fri., March. 28, 2008

The builders of the world's biggest particle collider are being sued in federal court over fears that the experiment might create globe-gobbling black holes or never-before-seen strains of matter that would destroy the planet.

Representatives at Fermilab in Illinois and at Europe's CERN laboratory, two of the defendants in the case, say there's no chance that the Large Hadron Collider would cause such cosmic catastrophes. Nevertheless, they're bracing to defend themselves in the courtroom as well as the court of public opinion.

The Large Hadron Collider, or LHC, is due for startup later this year at CERN's headquarters on the French-Swiss border. It's expected to tackle some of the deepest questions in science: Is the foundation of modern physics right or wrong? What existed during the very first moment of the universe's existence? Why do some particles have mass while others don't? What is the nature of dark matter? Are there extra dimensions of space out there that we haven't yet detected?

Some folks outside the scientific mainstream have asked darker questions as well: Could the collider create mini-black holes that last long enough and get big enough to turn into a matter-sucking maelstrom? Could exotic particles known as magnetic monopoles throw atomic nuclei out of whack? Could quarks recombine into "strangelets" that would turn the whole Earth into one big lump of exotic matter?

Former nuclear safety officer Walter Wagner has been raising such questions for years - first about an earlier-generation "big bang machine" known as the Relativistic Heavy-Ion Collider, and more recently about the LHC.

Last Friday, Wagner and another critic of the LHC's safety measures, Luis Sancho, filed a lawsuit in Hawaii's U.S. District Court. The suit calls on the U.S. Department of Energy, Fermilab, the National Science Foundation and CERN to ease up on their LHC preparations for several months while the collider's safety was reassessed.

"We're going to need a minimum of four months to review whatever they're putting out," Wagner told me on Monday. The suit seeks a temporary restraining order that would put the LHC on hold, pending the release and review of an updated CERN safety assessment. It also calls on the U.S. government to do a full environmental review addressing the LHC project, including the debate over the doomsday scenario.

On Monday, District Judge Helen Gillmor assigned the case to a magistrate judge, Kevin S.C. Chang, for an initial conference on June 16. Wagner said he planned to ask for a more immediate hearing on the request for a restraining order - that is, once he has served the federal government with the court papers.

The case is currently being handled by the U.S. attorney's office in Hawaii, where Wagner and Sancho both live,`but that may not necessarily be where the legal proceedings end up. The Justice Department's Environmental and Natural Resources Division, based in Washington, is also being brought in on the case, assistant U.S. attorney Derrick Watson told me in an e-mail Wednesday.

In Washington, Justice Department spokesman Andrew Ames noted that the court papers had not yet been received. "We don't have any comment," he told me Thursday. "We'll comment in court when it's appropriate."

Debating doomsday
The defense attorneys would likely dwell on the regulatory and procedural questions rather than the worries over a cosmic catastrophe. Those worries have been around for years, and most physicists have scoffed at them for almost as long. The doomsday scenarios raised by Sancho and Wagner include:

Runaway black holes: Some physicists say the LHC could create microscopic black holes that would hang around for just a tiny fraction of a second and then decay. Sancho and Wagner worry that millions of black holes might somehow persist and coalesce into a compact gravitational mass that would draw in other matter and grow bigger. That's pure science fiction, said Michio Kaku, a theoretical physicist at the City College of New York. "These black holes don't live very long, and they have microscopic energy, and so they are harmless," he told me.


Strangelets: Smashing protons together at high enough energies could create new combinations of quarks, the particles that protons are made of. Sancho and Wagner worry that a nasty combination known as a stable, negatively charged strangelet could theoretically turn everything it touches into strangelets as well. Kaku compared this to the ancient myth of the Midas touch. "We see no evidence of this bizarre theory," he said. "Once in a while, we trot it out to scare the pants off people. But it's not serious."


Magnetic monopoles: One theory suggests that high-energy particle collisions might give rise to massive particles that have only one magnetic pole - only north, or only south, but not the north-south magnetism that dominates nature. Sancho and Wagner worry that such particles could be created in the LHC and start a runaway reaction that converts atoms into other forms of matter. But physicists have seen no evidence of such reactions, which should have occurred already as the result of more energetic cosmic-ray collisions in Earth's upper atmosphere.
The cosmic-ray argument has been applied to the black-hole and strangelet scenarios as well. If such dangerous things can be created, why haven't they already eaten up Earth, along with other planets, stars or whole galaxies in the billions of years since the universe arose? To answer that question, Sancho and Wagner pose a counterargument: Perhaps cosmic-ray collisions really are creating tiny black holes or strangelets, but those little bits of doomsday zip by too fast to cause any trouble. In the LHC, they say, the bad stuff could hang around long enough to be captured by Earth's gravity and set off a catastrophe.

In response, particle physicists are developing counter-counterarguments - based on their theoretical work as well as data from astronomical observations and experiments at the Relativistic Heavy-Ion Collider. For instance, the physicists would say that enough of the doomsday particles still should have been captured by neutron stars or cosmic gas clouds to have an impact. No such impact has ever been seen. Therefore, no doomsday.

CERN spokesman James Gillies told me that a 2003 assessment of the doomsday scenarios was being updated with the new information. Release of that updated report - the one that Sancho and Wagner apparently have been waiting for - is "imminent," Gillies told me.

Questions about the doomsday scenarios may well come up at CERN on April 6, during a public open house at the LHC. Some researchers have gotten the word to be prepared to talk about microscopic black holes and strangelets if asked.

Reality check
Saying something is absolutely impossible doesn't always come easy. Some scientists find it difficult to state categorically that such-and-such a theoretical catastrophe has no chance of happening, and Fermilab spokeswoman Judy Jackson told me that the doomsayers have "cynically distorted" that natural reluctance to rule out even the most outlandish theoretical possibilities.

The doomsaying can continue as long as scientists hold out even a tiny sliver of uncertainty. Jackson cited the example of Paul Dixon, a psychology professor at the University of Hawaii at Hilo who has been saying for more than a decade that experiments at Fermilab's Tevatron accelerator are in danger of touching off an artificial supernova. Dixon is still going strong: He submitted an affidavit in support of the LHC lawsuit filed by Sancho and Wagner.

The current lawsuit could well be decided not by scientific arguments but rather by narrower regulatory issues. On that point, Jackson said that Fermilab has followed U.S. environmental regulations, just as CERN has followed European regulations. "Of course there are plenty of environmental laws and regulations, and they have all been followed to the letter," she said.

However, Jackson said CERN shouldn't be held to U.S. requirements when it comes to operating the LHC - even if the collider happens to be using magnets built by Fermilab. "Just because we built them doesn't mean we have any say over French environmental regulations," she said.

For his part, Wagner said he hoped Fermilab and the other defendants in the lawsuit would take another look at the doomsday scenarios - and speculated that a restraining order might not even be necessary. He noted that the startup schedule for the LHC has been repeatedly delayed, which would give more time for further safety assessments. (CERN's schedule currently calls for first collisions by the end of August, and the word is that the collider may not reach its full power of 14 trillion electron-volts until next year.)

Wagner suggested that cosmic-ray observations by the Pierre Auger Observatory and the yet-to-be-launched Gamma-ray Large Area Space Telescope, or GLAST, could shed new light on the debate. "The way I look at it, this should be a basis to look for more funding to find a solution to the problems we raised," he told me.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23844529/

#14 forever freedom

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 07:30 PM

I feel like punching these Sancho and Wagner guys.

#15 Lazarus Long

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 07:53 PM

Yeah I saw that article a few days ago and thought I should post it too.

Here is the NY Times article and it goes into more depth all the way around.

Asking a Judge to Save the World, and Maybe a Whole Lot More
http://www.nytimes.c...tml?ref=science

#16 amar

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 01:06 AM

Posted Image

#17 niner

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 02:55 AM

Maybe this thread should be filed under "threats to life"...

What if the LHC set off a process that converted the entire earth to a glob of weirdness, but it was slow? It grew like The Blob (which was filmed not far from my house!), expanding inexorably... Real Estate prices on the exact opposite side of the earth would skyrocket. What would you do with your remaining months (or possibly years) of existence? Then, when the earth was about 1/3 consumed, a physics grad student comes up with a way to reverse the process, as he emerges breathless from the empty lab, an angry crowd of townsfolk with pitchforks grabs him and lynches him! The irony heaped upon irony...

#18 biknut

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 03:48 AM

At 78, scientist hopes for proof soon that he was right about the Universe

Mark Henderson, Science Editor
The 40-year hunt for the holy grail of physics – the elusive “God particle” that is supposed to give matter its mass – is almost over, according to the leading scientist who first came up with the theory.

Peter Higgs, whose work gave his name to the elusive Higgs boson particle, said that he was more than 90 per cent certain it would be found within the next few years.

The Higgs boson was the professor’s elegant 1964 solution to one of the great problems with the standard model of physics – how matter has mass and thus exists in a form that allows it to make stars, planets and people. He proposed that the universe is pervaded by an invisible field of bosons that consist of mass but little else.

As particles move through this field, bosons effectively stick to some of them, making them more massive, while leaving others to pass unhindered. Photons, light particles that have no mass, are not affected by the Higgs field at all.

The mysterious boson postulated by Professor Higgs, of the University of Edinburgh, has become so fundamental to physics that it is often nicknamed the “God particle”. After more than 40 years of research, and billions of pounds, scientists have yet to prove that it is real. But Professor Higgs, 78, now believes the search is nearly over.

A new atom-smasher that will be switched on near Geneva later this year is virtually guaranteed to find it, he said. It is even possible that the critical evidence already exists, in data from an American experiment in Illinois that has yet to be analysed fully.

Speaking after visiting Cern, the European particle physics laboratory that has built the £2.6 billion Large Hadron Collider (LHC) to find the Higgs boson, he praised the collaborative work behind the project, adding that such future work could be jeopardised by a funding crisis surrounding particle physics in Britain. The government agency responsible is being told to make £70 million in cuts, forcing Britain to withdraw from a project to build the successor to he LHC.

“It looks like a major disaster in the funding of this kind of physics in the UK,” said Professor Higgs. “You are letting down your international partners, and what happens after that sort of thing is they don’t trust you any more. That’s even worse than the impact on the domestic users of this machine.”

Tantalising glimpses of the boson from other, less powerful particle accelerators, have suggested that unequivocal evidence should emerge almost immediately when the LHC begins its experiments.

The Higgs boson is hard to detect because it is hypothesised to exist only at very high energies, which last existed in nature in the moments after the Big Bang, hence the need for an atom smasher.

The LHC will fire beams of protons around a 17-mile underground tunnel before these collide at close to the speed of light to release vast bursts of energy. Four vast caverns hold sophisticated detectors that will track the particles produced by the collisions. The largest, named Atlas, is buried in a space big enough to enclose the nave of Westminster Abbey.

More than 70,000 people, including Professor Higgs, attended two open days at Cern at the weekend to see the LHC before its tunnels and experiment caverns are sealed. Professor Higgs last visited in 1987, before the LHC’s predecessor had even been built.

If the LHC is successful, all that might then stand between him and a Nobel prize will be the mammoth task of interpreting the reams of data the collider will produce - which would fill a stack of compact discs 40 miles (65km) high every year.

If all goes well, he hopes he will be celebrating by the time he turns 80 in May 2009.

“My prejudice would certainly be, on the basis of the evidence we already have, that it’s not far off,” said the professor. “But there’s a lot of analysis of the data to be done before you make the announcement that you have found it. That’s what will take the time.”

If he turns out to be right, “I will certainly open a bottle of something”, he said. If the boson is not found, however, “I should be very, very puzzled. If it’s not there, I no longer understand what I think I understand.”

In the early 1990s, William Waldegrave, then the Science Minister, staged a competition for the best explanation of the mechanism on a single side of paper.

The winning analogy was of Margaret Thatcher – a massive particle – wandering through a Conservative cocktail party and gathering hangers-on as she moved about.

Smashing atoms

— The European particle physics laboratory’s accelerator will smash beams of protons against one another at 0.999997828 times the speed of light. It is housed in a tunnel 17 miles long, about the same length as the London Underground’s Circle Line

— When the tunnel was cut, the ends met with only 1cm of error

— Each proton will go around the tunnel 11,245 times a second

— The proton beam will carry the equivalent energy of an aircraft carrier sailing at 11 knots

— The superconducting cables used to power the LHC would stretch around the Equator 6.8 times. All the filaments would stretch to the Sun and back five times, plus a few trips to the Moon

— The cooling apparatus could keep 140,000 fridges full of sausages at a temperature a little above absolute zero

— The beam pipes contain a vacuum similar to that found in space.

— Engineers look for leaks so small that they would cause a car tyre to go flat in 10,000 years

Source: Cern

http://www.timesonli...icle3701645.ece

#19 chik

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 11:00 AM

I trust Stephen Hawking. The black hole being produced will evaporate and explode like a small firework, without harming the Earth ^_^

#20 forever freedom

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 03:40 PM

I would still rather that these billions spent on the hadron collider would be spent in anti aging research but i guess this is better than if it was spent in some stupid war.

#21 nefastor

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 06:06 PM

I would still rather that these billions spent on the hadron collider would be spent in anti aging research but i guess this is better than if it was spent in some stupid war.


What if the scientific progress permitted by discovering the Higgs eventually led to an anti-aging discovery ? I don't know about you, but I can't even say how likely or unlikely that could be.

Nefastor

#22 Luna

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 06:10 PM

I doubt there will even be a blackhole.. just some high energy collisions.

#23 knite

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 06:11 PM

I would still rather that these billions spent on the hadron collider would be spent in anti aging research but i guess this is better than if it was spent in some stupid war.



What if the scientific progress permitted by discovering the Higgs eventually led to an anti-aging discovery ? I don't know about you, but I can't even say how likely or unlikely that could be.

Nefastor


Yep yep, discovering something as universally basic as this has implications throughout society. Understanding mass may lead to control of mass, and that is unbelievable power to shape our world.

Edited by knite, 09 April 2008 - 06:14 PM.


#24 niner

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 11:43 PM

I would still rather that these billions spent on the hadron collider would be spent in anti aging research but i guess this is better than if it was spent in some stupid war.


What if the scientific progress permitted by discovering the Higgs eventually led to an anti-aging discovery ? I don't know about you, but I can't even say how likely or unlikely that could be.

I'll offer my opinion as a biologically oriented scientist: The likelihood of the LHC leading to an anti-aging discovery is exceedingly small. While the investment in the LHC could arguably be justified on the basis of improving our understanding of physics, to make that investment expecting an anti-aging payoff would be insanity.

#25 forever freedom

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 12:32 AM

I would still rather that these billions spent on the hadron collider would be spent in anti aging research but i guess this is better than if it was spent in some stupid war.


What if the scientific progress permitted by discovering the Higgs eventually led to an anti-aging discovery ? I don't know about you, but I can't even say how likely or unlikely that could be.

Nefastor




Playing with "what ifs" can lead to many conclusions... many of them unlikely.

Instead of thinking in the "what if" way, i would rather be more direct and invest the money directly in anti aging, the odds that this money would help anti aging more by investin it directly on anti aging than if i put it in the hadron collider are very, very high.

Edited by sam988, 10 April 2008 - 12:33 AM.


#26 jackinbox

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 12:51 AM

The buzz surrounding the Large Hadron Collider remind me of the movie "Contact". I just hope religious fanatics are not going to blow it up!

#27 nefastor

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 02:23 AM

Instead of thinking in the "what if" way, i would rather be more direct and invest the money directly in anti aging, the odds that this money would help anti aging more by investin it directly on anti aging than if i put it in the hadron collider are very, very high.


Says who ? The implications of finding the Higgs boson are too far-reaching to make any kind of guess. Take quantum physics, for instance : it predicted subatomic particles which were later evidenced in experiments much like the LHC : quarks. Understanding quarks led to the invention of MRI scanners, which are a fantastic tool in many fields of medicine. So you already have an example of how particle physics has increased our lifespans.

Can you really say it's very likely finding the Higgs boson won't lead to medical technology as important as the MRI scanner ?

and how do you figure it's more likely spending 6 billion (the cost of the LHC) on anti-aging research will produce results of similar effect on our lifespans ? AFAIK a lot more money than that is already being invested in medical research each year and last I've heard we're still only increasing our lifespans by very small increments at a time.

Besides, "anti-aging research" is too generic a term. It covers many fields of science. If we divide the 6 billion among them, are they really gonna make a huge difference ?

I think we should see this experiment as one of the many non-medical works that may still have a huge impact on our lifespans. Me, I'm keeping a close eye on cybernetics : after all, we've been successfully making artificial limbs since the days of the pirates (granted, they were hooks and wooden legs, but hey it's a start and you have to admit they did correct "career-ending wounds", letting pirates sail and plunder longer than they should have. Yarrh !!! :p )

Nefastor

#28 nefastor

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 02:39 AM

The buzz surrounding the Large Hadron Collider remind me of the movie "Contact". I just hope religious fanatics are not going to blow it up!

Luckily, the LHC didn't cost "a trillion dollars", and no one is gonna use it for manned missions of any kind :p

Seriously, though, the worst that could happen if the LHC was blown up is a serious radiation leak. There's a reason it was built underground, and it has nothing to do with preserving the landscape.

Plus, I really think the terrorist attack was the weak point of Contact. It takes a George W. Bush to let a religious freak cause a trillion dollars of damage on his watch, and the cops that secure physics labs are a lot smarter than "the decider" :)

Nah, I'm more worried about an egghead crossing a couple wires because (s)he's low on sleep and high on caffeine. That's probably the only way the LHC would blow-up, assuming they haven't heard of "fuses" at the CERN. Other way is if they actually produce black-holes and have made a serious mistake in their assumptions. I sleep better not thinking about it, especially after watching "Farscape : the Peacekeeper Wars" (probably the best "black-hole weapon" rendering ever)

Nefastor

#29 niner

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 02:47 AM

Instead of thinking in the "what if" way, i would rather be more direct and invest the money directly in anti aging, the odds that this money would help anti aging more by investin it directly on anti aging than if i put it in the hadron collider are very, very high.


Says who ? The implications of finding the Higgs boson are too far-reaching to make any kind of guess. Take quantum physics, for instance : it predicted subatomic particles which were later evidenced in experiments much like the LHC : quarks. Understanding quarks led to the invention of MRI scanners, which are a fantastic tool in many fields of medicine. So you already have an example of how particle physics has increased our lifespans.

Says me, for one. (Or another, in this case.) The invention of MRI scanners did not require an understanding of quarks. Quarks were first described in the 60's, but Bloch and Purcell got the Nobel prize for work in Magnetic Resonance in 1952. The science of Nuclear Magnetic Resonance dates back to 1938.

Can you really say it's very likely finding the Higgs boson won't lead to medical technology as important as the MRI scanner ?

That's not the right analysis. The pertinent question is: Where should we invest a given sum of money to maximize the impact on anti-aging.

and how do you figure it's more likely spending 6 billion (the cost of the LHC) on anti-aging research will produce results of similar effect on our lifespans ? AFAIK a lot more money than that is already being invested in medical research each year and last I've heard we're still only increasing our lifespans by very small increments at a time.

How do you figure it's less likely? The reason our lifespans are increasing so slowly is that we have spent next to nothing on anti-aging research. All the medical research spending is focused on disease, not anti-aging.

By the way, I'm not arguing against the LHC. I just think that it's silly to try to justify it on the basis of a putative impact on anti-aging.

Edited by niner, 10 April 2008 - 02:50 AM.


#30 nefastor

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 10:48 AM

You got me on the MRI. I didn't do my homework and got busted. Good job :p

Still, that doesn't change anything to my point : tickling subatomic particles most people have never heard of can have beneficial consequences for all people.

How do you figure it's less likely?

I don't. I'm just saying it's possible, and that I don't think any of us can tell for sure which is the best way to invest money.

I do believe, however, that a better understanding of the laws of physics will always have a deeper, wider impact on our species than research in the narrow field of science (anti-aging). Notwithstanding chronology, it's undeniable that physics have played a major role in increasing our lifespans. To stay on particle physics : think about radiotherapy, X-rays, the electron microscope... and first and foremost, electronics : EEG, ECG, monitoring equipment that can keep an eye on patients 24/7 without ever falling asleep, pacemakers...

I hope discovering the Higgs boson will lead to new areas of technology, just like electronics didn't exist two hundred years ago and are now everywhere. It might sound weird coming from an immortalist, but I'd be willing to forfeit an immediate 10-year increase to my lifespan just to see this experiment succeed. It's like a long term investment : I think in the end I'll come ahead in terms of lifespan increase.

Nefastor.

Edited by nefastor, 10 April 2008 - 10:48 AM.





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