13 replies to this topic

[nameless]

Hello,

I'm curious which form of the above OPCs is considered the best? Is there a difference regarding pine bark and grape seed as to health benefits? Do the same studies pertain to both substances?

The main difference is of course, price. Grape seed extracts are super cheap in comparison.

And are there any recommended brands of either? For grape extract, I'm currently using Doctor's Best French Grape Extract (Biovin), as it's inexpensive and contains the extract of the full grape. I've considered a pine bark extract too, but it's pricey and I'm not sure it has any benefit over what I am using now.

Thanks.

[health_nutty]

Activin in the "name brand" of grape seed extract. A lot of the studies on GSE use activin. That being said I'm doubt it matters. I get uncapped activin pretty cheap from BAC.

[kottke]

A little secret not many people on this board have looked into is CranMax- a cranberry extract

http://www.vibranthe...g/cranmax2.html

"In Cran-Max®, the OPCs are concentrated to exceed the potency of pine bark extracts (60%) and match the finest grapeseed extracts"

Cran-Max® Whole Cranberry Components
Polyphenols: Proanthocyanidins,.Anthocyanidins & OPCs
Organic Acids: Hippuric, Ellagic, Shikimic, Quinic, Malic, Benzoic & Citric acids
Minerals & Vitamins: Vitamins A & C, Calcium, Iron, Copper, Magnesium, Niacin, Phosphorus, Potassium, Riboflavin, Sodium, Thiamin & Zinc
Dietary Fibers: 4.45 g/100 g
Total Carbohydrates: 10.39g/100g

Pretty awesome shit if you ask me. Been taking it for a week now

[graatch]

You can get really cheap pinebark and activin grapeseed powders at beyond a century. Not much difference in price between the two IIRC

[nameless]

Thanks for the replies.

Are there any clinical studies that show one form of OPC is better than another? I'm mostly curious, if say, pine bark, has something in it that makes it better than grape seed. Or if grape seed is better than pine bark, etc.

As for brands, I see some grape seed extracts standardize to different levels, but I'm not sure what effect that has. Activin is a well known brand, but is it better than generic grape seed? I think a lot of companies use the same supplier (polyphenolics), if they aren't going with activin or biovin, but I have no clue if one form is better than another or not.

And BAC does have super cheap prices, but I am wary of buying from them. Are they considered reputable? I somehow feel better buying supplements that I know are sold in stores... they have a stronger financial reason to be reputable and on the ball regarding contamination/correct dosages (although that doesn't necessarily mean everything in stores is free of any contamination either).

[suspire]

Out of curiosity, what about cocoa and cinnamon? Aren't both also high in OPCs?

[kodi]

Horphag Research (manufacturer of Pycnogenol) was the funding source behind the latest study in 2007 that highlights Pycnogenol's carb-blocking and glucose-controlling benefits. They're also the funding source behind many other Pycnogenol studies, and it's conspicious that they exclude grape seed extract from their studies. I suspect they do this because grape seed extract is much cheaper than Pycnogenol. In other words, comparing Pycnogenol to the inferior carb-blocking qualities of green tea and Precose/Acarbose makes Pycnogenol look good; but comparing it to grape seed would probably make it look like the overpriced, patented supplement that it is.

At http://www.groupsrv....bout198751.html someone wrote, "[the studies on Pycnogenol] appear to be influenced by the makers of Pycnogenol and have an interlinking authorship featuring the name of a German doctor Rhodewald. Even so they may well be valid representations of the efficacy of pycnogenol, which also may have other benefits such as antioxidative, and endothelial relaxation functions."

It's interesting to note that Precose/Acarbose/Glucobay (a prescription drug for controlling diabetes) blocks both alpha-glucosidases and pancreatic alpha-amylase, thus providing a two-prong attack against blood glucose. By contrast, the OPC in Pycnogenol and grape seed extract blocks only alpha-glucosidases. How much this actually matters in terms of blood sugar control is an open question, so I look forward to future studies.

My current intention is to take a small amount of three different starch blockers at the start of any high-carb meals: Precose, grape seed extract, and Phaseolamin (C-120X). They're all quite affordable if you only take them a couple times per week (for restaurants, etc.). Of course it would be even better never to eat high-carb meals -- but how many of us have the discipline to do that 365 days per year?

Edited by kodi, 08 September 2007 - 08:27 PM.

[DukeNukem]

Nameless, I think various OPCs have different health effects, because they're different molecules. I take several, such as Pycnogenol and grape seed.

[nameless]

Thanks for the additional information. I expect the health benefits to differ a bit based on the form used... cranberry vs grape vs pine, etc.

If price wasn't an issue, I'd take both, but as of right now I cannot justify paying for Pycnogenol over regular grape extract. The price difference is quite a bit and I haven't found any studies showing Pycnogenol as being better than grape extract.

[scottl]

I cannot justify paying for Pycnogenol over regular grape extract. The price difference is quite a bit and I haven't found any studies showing Pycnogenol as being better than grape extract.

Yup. Anyone have any data/reason to believe pycnogenol offers anything grape seed extract does not?

[DukeNukem]

>>> Yup. Anyone have any data/reason to believe pycnogenol offers anything grape seed extract does not? <<<

Well, again, they're different molecules and therefore have different chemical properties and reactions. Just as there are different flavonoids that have different health benefits. I'm sure that the various procyanidolic oligomers have similar benefits, but not identical. From what I've read, for example, Pycnogenol appears particularly good at inflammation reduction. Two years ago I badly twisted my ankle in TKD and took 500mg of it daily for a few days, and it really seemed to help.

[nameless]

Well, again, they're different molecules and therefore have different chemical properties and reactions. Just as there are different flavonoids that have different health benefits. I'm sure that the various procyanidolic oligomers have similar benefits, but not identical. From what I've read, for example, Pycnogenol appears particularly good at inflammation reduction. Two years ago I badly twisted my ankle in TKD and took 500mg of it daily for a few days, and it really seemed to help.

I think you are right, regarding possibly different benefits, if in fact the Pycnogenol OPC molecules are significantly different than the grape seed ones. But I guess the question is, in the human body is there a significant difference between then, health benefit-wise?

If you had taken 500mg of grape seed extract instead, would the reduction in inflammation been the same?

A clinical study could show this, but I don't know of any head to head comparisons between the two. Any such studies out there somewhere?

[scottl]

Thanks Duke. Perhaps time to add some pycnegenol

[wydell]

From what I have read and seen, grape seed and pine bark have very similar properties, with my recollection of one article stating that Grapeseed had a wider spectrum of polyphenols.

While I believe in diversity, I also believe in cutting down on the number of supplement bottles that I have. Therefore, I chose to forego pinebark and opt solely for grapeseed instead. I do take a pomegranate supplement though and do eat foods that are probably high in OPCs.


By the way, I think that Pycnogenol is a trademarked version of pine bark (i.e., a brand of pinebark extract) and I am not aware that it is substantially different from any other form of Pinebark. ( The brand has been used in a lot of studies though.) Pinebark extract and Grapeseed are probably priced comparatively at BAC.