58 replies to this topic

[william7]

However floating islands are not. There is currently a project by the super rich to develop the largest floating community out of a super luxury cruise liner. And no Elijah they have no intention of living communally, though I do not know how they plan to maintain the servant quarters.

They better learn to share everything, be humble and meek, and turn the other cheek. Otherwise, they're likely to be at each others throats and have mutiny on their hands more often than they care to. Master over servants and peeking orders can deteriorate into sadistic and savage Lord of the Flies and Alcatraz conditions sometimes.

The suburbs and small communes have the opposite effect in reality to what they are purported to be trying to protect, they destroy more natural habitat than cities do.

This will not be a problem if the Open Source biology, Freeman Dyson mentions in his book, becomes a powerful tool giving access to cheap and abundant solar energy. Green technology combined with new forms of communal living and with "new forms of psychospiritual orientation and devotion" will be the thing. Listen to elijah and put all your heart and mind into it so you don't lose out.

BTW did you ever notice how much of your argument is the same as that of Pol Pot and his cultural revolution which attempted to force urban dwellers back on the farms in communes?

The times were not ripe for that and Pol Pot was one of those Marxist/atheists who lacked insight and vision for the future.

Agribusiness is destructive of family run farms but far more efficient per hectare at producing food.

The new green technology that Dyson talks about should take care of that problem too. Dyson says:

Guided by a precise understanding of genes and genomes instead of by trial and error, we can within a few years modify plants so as to give them improved yield, improved nutritive value, and improved resistance to pests and diseases.

Within a few more decades, as the continued exploring of genomes gives us better knowledge of the architecture of living creatures, we shall be able to design new species of microbes and plants according to our needs.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/20370

This will give communal farmers the ability to easily meet all the food needs of the people with less work and less destruction of the natural habitat.

Just how do you plan on keeping people there when they don't want to be? Assuming you can get them there in the first place?

As global warming picks up and spirit of ... goes to work, communal living will become the obvious solution. The people will stay because they'll realize it's the only way to live a long, healthy and happy life.

However I do thin the idea of intention communities are a good one and I am curious why you are not a member of such a community given your beliefs. There are intentional communities with similar religious beliefs to what you have described. Anyway if you cannot find one why don't you just start one?

If you build it they will come.

There are no communal societies I know of with the "new forms of psychospiritual orientation and devotion" I figure will be necessary to make communal living really successful. What I'm thinking of will take a right understanding and perfect application of THE LAW to work right.

Anyway if you cannot find one why don't you just start one?

If you build it they will come.

I'm working on that now. I plan to visit a number of the communal societies in the Federation of Egalitarian Communities so I can learn what works and doesn't work and do a little teaching myself. May be I'll be able to write some articles or a book. I'll definitely start a thread on it. May be you could talk Imminst into sponsoring me or something. I want to travel by bicycle like Dan Buettner did when he he went around to the Blue Zones.

Also I am curious about something else; are you married?

and

Do you have children?

No wife and no children. I haven't been out of the joint two years yet. Give me a chance.

You must of missed my post where I confessed to doing a 29 year "bit" for an armed robbery committed in my youth. I was overcome by the jungle in my childhood and now I hope to overcome the jungle as an adult. I think I'm doing a pretty good job of it so far.

[suspire]

You must of missed my post where I confessed to doing a 29 year "bit" for an armed robbery committed in my youth. I was overcome by the jungle in my childhood and now I hope to overcome the jungle as an adult. I think I'm doing a pretty good job of it so far.

29 years for armed robbery? Holy cow. That's one hell of a stint, man. If you've posted more details about it, somewhere, anywhere, off or on forum, I'd be interested in reading about it. That said, I wish they treated white collar crimes as harshly.

Anywaaays.

[Live Forever]

He hung out with John Wayne and smoked pot with him when he was younger too.

[william7]

He hung out with John Wayne and smoked pot with him when he was younger too.

I just showed suspire proof of my conviction and sentence and asked him to make a post confirming it. If you or Lazarus can get Bruce Klein to promise I'll not be banned under any circumstances, I'll send you the information I sent suspire.

[Shepard]

He hung out with John Wayne and smoked pot with him when he was younger too.

Are you calling my Uncle Joe a liar? That man took fourteen bullets for our country and was awarded two Medals of Honor. Not cool, man.

[william7]

He hung out with John Wayne and smoked pot with him when he was younger too.

Are you calling my Uncle Joe a liar? That man took fourteen bullets for our country and was awarded two Medals of Honor. Not cool, man.

In that post, I was clearly joking with Live Forever.

[DJS]

This train has derailed.

[suspire]

Yeah, I saw the rap sheet. It does look like elijah3's picture/icon. And I'm not sure what his motivation would be to lie about it, but yes, I've seen his file/rap sheet/etc.

[Live Forever]

I don't think anyone thought you were lying about being in prison, elijah.

I didn't realize you were joking about meeting John Wayne, though.

[william7]

I don't think anyone thought you were lying about being in prison, elijah.

I didn't realize you were joking about meeting John Wayne, though.

I thought for sure you knew I was joking on that one. I wish I could remember exactly where that thread is but I can't at the moment. You actually baited me into making the joke if you remember correctly. I guess I better remember not to joke like that again and stick to serious biz.

[Lazarus Long]

I asked about your family structure for a reason Elijah and I will pursue the subject in a separate thread before it derails this topic further. The point was for all the advice you seem to offer to others about how to live as families it struck me interesting how fundamentally naive it sounded compared to the practical realities of actually living in the daily partnership of a family.

Your nearly 30 years in a "cave" would go a long way to explain both the naivete and unrealistic idealism you ascribe to the processes of social chemistry necessary for knitting together not merely a community but a family.

What I find interesting is that many of the ideas you promote have a shred of Stockholm Syndrome associated with them as they are all modeled on aspects of prison life that is idealized to appear good and wholesome.

So much so that you actually attempt to rationalize Pol Pot as not corrupt of ideals and methodology but simply a man of limited vision attempting change at the wrong time, NOT WITH THE WRONG GOALS!

(Elijah)

  (LL)
BTW did you ever notice how much of your argument is the same as that of Pol Pot and his cultural revolution which attempted to force urban dwellers back on the farms in communes?

The times were not ripe for that and Pol Pot was one of those Marxist/atheists who lacked insight and vision for the future.

In fact you validated my initial point with this response and it is one of the reasons I find most religious zealots of any stripe extremely suspect. Organized religion is the wolf in sheep's clothes that has become the real evil in the world today, hunting for minds to cripple and maintain as addicts to their psychotropics.

Before I forget, another method of population control that needs to be carefully prevented is the one alluded to by the previous commentary: GENOCIDE.

It too has been a staple of extreme times and rears its ugly head when often least expected.

[Lazarus Long]

I should also point out before going too far down this rabbit hole that genocide has been practiced throughout the ages far more by organized religions bent on forced conversion and control than by the modern supposedly *secular* states though a few of those clearly brought a technical precision to their tasks that made for a kind of macabre efficiency.

I say "supposedly secular" because in both Stalin's and Hitler's cases they were intentionally trying to substitute the state as the focus of devotion in a religious sense for the icons of the religions they felt they were competing with loyalty for.

Intentionally making ideologies into organized religions is easier to do and harder to control than most people think, it can even be done for political and economic systems and invariably it turns out badly.

[Live Forever]

I wish I could remember exactly where that thread is but I can't at the moment.

http://www.imminst.o...170&t=16157&hl=

[william7]

I wish I could remember exactly where that thread is but I can't at the moment.

http://www.imminst.o...170&t=16157&hl=

Sorry! I thought you baited me on that one when actually it was me that started out with a jokingly false statement. I'm going to have to remember to never make statements like that ever again.

[william7]

The point was for all the advice you seem to offer to others about how to live as families it struck me interesting how fundamentally naive it sounded compared to the practical realities of actually living in the daily partnership of a family.

Your nearly 30 years in a "cave" would go a long way to explain both the naivete and unrealistic idealism you ascribe to the processes of social chemistry necessary for knitting together not merely a community but a family.

Hey, I was born and raised in an intact family and I still have a fairly good memory of the experience. Because I was a jailhouse lawyer in prison, I read a lot of pre-sentence investigation reports and forensic psyche evaluations that frequently described dysfunctional family life and its role in the criminal behavior. I read my fair share of social and behavioral science books too.

What I find interesting is that many of the ideas you promote have a shred of Stockholm Syndrome associated with them as they are all modeled on aspects of prison life that is idealized to appear good and wholesome.

I don't think I understand what you're saying here. I think it takes more than a "shred" of the Stockholm Syndrome to fit the clinical picture. I can't think of anywhere where I made a post that idealized my prison experience or made it appear good and wholesome. Show me the posts. I do believe in living in close cooperation like bees and ants according to an idealized view of the Bible. Antisocial prisoners didn't live this way.

So much so that you actually attempt to rationalize Pol Pot as not corrupt of ideals and methodology but simply a man of limited vision attempting change at the wrong time, NOT WITH THE WRONG GOALS!

I shouldn't have had to spell that out. As I said, Pol Pot was a Marxist/atheist with limited insight and vision. Had he the proper insight and vision according to a right understanding of religion he would have realized he was wrong to use the violence to bring about the change he desired. He would've used education in place of violence.

In fact you validated my initial point with this response and it is one of the reasons I find most religious zealots of any stripe extremely suspect. Organized religion is the wolf in sheep's clothes that has become the real evil in the world today, hunting for minds to cripple and maintain as addicts to their psychotropics.

You're absolutely right! But do you agree that in most all cases these zealots, working in behalf of organized religion, are hunting for minds to cripple in order to achieve material wealth and luxury living, and that communal living based on the idealized view of the Bible I advocate - along with democratic principles - would be the antidote to the problem?

Before I forget, another method of population control that needs to be carefully prevented is the one alluded to by the previous commentary: GENOCIDE.

It too has been a staple of extreme times and rears its ugly head when often least expected.

I fully agree. But past history and current realities say it's going to happen again on a larger scale. I don't believe that can be stopped. Once it's over, however, we should want to live in a way that will prevent it from happening again.

I am actually a proponent of intentional communities

Have you made any posts on this you can show me?

I apologize if I appear unkind but I am giving you a hard time because I think your proposals are blatantly unrealistic and this is because you depend on a religion to tie the group together and while that has been to shown to work it is ONLY effective when entirely voluntary.

This is because you're an atheist and lack the insight and vision the Bible provides.

[Luna]

Yes, please don't take the bible word by word.
It means what you want it to mean.

Of course that for me it means what I want it to mean and not what you want it to mean.

And of course the fact many things were said to happen at specific times didn't happen because taking the bible word by word is not the true way to know when and what will really happen.

And of course the end of the world isn't the end of the world, it's the end of the enemies of god.

And of course that.. ok you get the idea.

[william7]

I should also point out before going too far down this rabbit hole that genocide has been practiced throughout the ages far more by organized religions bent on forced conversion and control than by the modern supposedly *secular* states though a few of those clearly brought a technical precision to their tasks that made for a kind of macabre efficiency.

It shouldn't really matter which one was worse. The fact that both do it should be satisfactory. The question should be how should we live or organize socially to prevent it from occurring? What will it take to stop it?

[Lazarus Long]

I have split the latter posts off from the original thread ( Solutions to Overpopulation ) because they had wandered too far afield from the intended topic. I do think they have a value in a separate subject discussion though I will warn you Elijah, the continuous biblical references will get this thread moved to religion and are generally considered off topic because you are not willing to argue the merits and consider the bible an impeachable source.

The bible is not the subject now, the family structure and how that fits into community is. You may argue a *traditional model* as is often described in the bible but that neither lends it credibility nor value in itself. The model must have a rational applicability to the modern experience and not simply be the *word* of an invisible higher authority that you respect and others don't recognize.

[Lazarus Long]

Hey, I was born and raised in an intact family and I still have a fairly good memory of the experience. Because I was a jailhouse lawyer in prison, I read a lot of pre-sentence investigation reports and forensic psyche evaluations that frequently described dysfunctional family life and its role in the criminal behavior. I read my fair share of social and behavioral science books too.

That you study the matter and also have an *informed* opinion (albeit biased) is the reason I am having this discussion with you. However there is a big difference between the pragmatics of family and the idealized discussions of literature and childhood perspectives.

I am married and have been with the same woman for 30 years in a complex relationship. We have two teenage children and I have also studied family structures and the history and social-psychology of families academically, including from an anthropological perspective.

So now we have traded credentials, my point was that family is not a one size fits all idea that has a perfect model. It is an adaptive concept that is also at the core of community structure. That is why it is interactive with respect to the community and why family structure also determines the community it forms the basis of.

BTW, I see you did not waste your time in the joint. Did you follow up with some real world academic credits to match the *jail house* OJT?

You make a good case regardless of its validity and I think your skills would go far in the court room, especially since the process of jurisprudence values appeals to higher powers and judgemental attitudes. In this respect it is somewhat like the sciences, they just have somewhat competing authoritarian perspectives. Well that is whether we accept a natural law legal perspective, divine law, authoritarian, absolutist or relativist principles.

(Elijah)

  (LL)
So much so that you actually attempt to rationalize Pol Pot as not corrupt of ideals and methodology but simply a man of limited vision attempting change at the wrong time, NOT WITH THE WRONG GOALS!

I shouldn't have had to spell that out. As I said, Pol Pot was a Marxist/atheist with limited insight and vision. Had he the proper insight and vision according to a right understanding of religion he would have realized he was wrong to use the violence to bring about the change he desired. He would've used education in place of violence.

Again wrong, you certainly are obligated to spell it out and you are still presenting a politically naive, if not corrupt perspective, which demonstrates why so many will forever fight the oppressive authoritarian aspects of the practical realities required to invoke the future you propose. The means to the ends you hope for invariably demand genocide in order to come about. That makes the goals not merely undesirable but destructive and the ideals a part of the problem, not the solution.

The problem with many of your perspectives are that they are myopically ethnocentric and unable to assimilate the reality of diversity that our species represents. There exists no *one model fits all* definition of human social structure, culture, or religion; not now, nor will there ever be one. Perhaps there shouldn't even be one because it represents the end of human progress, achievement, and growth.

Family and religion are reflective of adaptive diversity and the need for our species to develop complex independent relationships within environmental (social and climactic) conditions that are localized for effectiveness but generally capable of additional social integration both horizontally and vertically in order to develop communities. The model of the ancient ideal is not merely impractical, it is destructive. It was never then, what it is claimed to have been now. The reality was hard and cruel, not the idealize fantasy that those who are blindly nostalgic (as you appear to be) claim.

In the case of Pol Pot he was simply wrong in his goals but his methods were consistent with his invalid assumptions. The results were disastrous and literally millions died due to the fallacy of his beliefs.

[Lazarus Long]

(elijah)

(LL)
In fact you validated my initial point with this response and it is one of the reasons I find most religious zealots of any stripe extremely suspect. Organized religion is the wolf in sheep's clothes that has become the real evil in the world today, hunting for minds to cripple and maintain as addicts to their psychotropics.

You're absolutely right! But do you agree that in most all cases these zealots, working in behalf of organized religion, are hunting for minds to cripple in order to achieve material wealth and luxury living, and that communal living based on the idealized view of the Bible I advocate - along with democratic principles - would be the antidote to the problem?

No, I do not agree. I think it is because misery loves company.

I also do not think you do not understand my point at all about the communal living option. If it is not voluntary, it is prison. If of divine origin then consider it a gilded cage but prison none the less.

The paradox is that if you make people want it (by divine or secular force), it is not voluntary. If you leave them no option, it is not voluntary and ultimately it results in Pol Pot pragmatics in order to sustain its existence.

You cannot have it both ways, free will means the freedom to choose alternatives and divine determinism is simply a form of fatal attraction for fatalism.

[Lazarus Long]

(elijah)

(lazarus)
I am actually a proponent of intentional communities

Have you made any posts on this you can show me?

Have you noticed the number of posts next to my name?

No, I am not going to do your homework for you and for the record I just did provide you a post. I gave you my opinion without reservation and I stand by it. I will explain the perspective further but I am very consistent as most will attest to, even if at times they do not understand, or respect it.

I do not have to prove my openly expressed honest opinion.

[william7]

Elijah, Your hair must grow very quickly. To have a beard like that in just two years is rare. I am sure they would not let you have a beard that long while incarcerated, for they would not want you hiding any dangerous objects in it.

The state system I was in didn't enforce a no beard or no long hair rule in the high security facilities I was in most of the time. They did in the lesser security facilities especially during the 60s and 70s when it was popular to have long hair and beards. In the DOC picture of me, taken in what was then a maximum security facility, I showed suspire I had my beard and a pony tail (which wasn't visible).

Most prison systems do maintain a ban on beards and long hair but make allowances for bona fide religious beliefs. There were a number of civil rights actions filed by prisoners back in the 60s and 70s against the no beard and long hair rules. Most of them were unsuccessful except for the ones on religious grounds.

Were you as religious prior to your conviction as you are now?

I didn't get seriously into the Bible until 1989. During my childhood, I did attend the First United Methodist Church under duress, but managed to break away from it by age 13 or 14. When I got locked up in 1976 for the drug related armed robbery, I started a program of self education and quit drugs, drinking and smoking. I started to work out a lot, and by 1985-6 I reduced my meat and junk food consumption substantially after reading some health literature recommending it. I became a full fledged vegetarian in 1988.

Since I've been into the Bible, I've gotten a lot softer and now I'm so far down on the pecking order even Live Forever picks on me whenever he gets a chance.

Edited by elijah3, 25 August 2007 - 01:10 AM.

[william7]

That you study the matter and also have an *informed* opinion (albeit biased) is the reason I am having this discussion with you. However there is a big difference between the pragmatics of family and the idealized discussions of literature and childhood perspectives.

I have to agree that I'm now biased in favor of the biblical ideal for family and child rearing. I realize there is a big difference between the ideal and the practical reality. We still need to work towards achieving the ideal as I'm sure you must agree?

I am married and have been with the same woman for 30 years in a complex relationship. We have two teenage children and I have also studied family structures and the history and social-psychology of families academically, including from an anthropological perspective.

Prior to studying the Bible I read a few sociology and anthropology textbooks with chapters on marriage and family. I even read a textbook on child development and socialization by a noted University of Michigan child psychologist (whose name I can't think of at the moment) and some literature on behavior modification techniques for rearing and managing emotionally disturbed children. I also did time in juvenile facilities with severely disturbed children and adolescents and have a good memory of the experience and the people.

I would have to agree that you would definitely have more practical experience when it comes to marriage and raising children. But, since I've been out, I've paid close attention to my married sisters and their family problems. The pastor of the Bible campus I'm living on also frequently offers insights into his experiences raising a family. I even helped take care of two 5 year olds who spent a week with us here as well as helped out at a week long children and youth rally at a local church.

So now we have traded credentials, my point was that family is not a one size fits all idea that has a perfect model. It is an adaptive concept that is also at the core of community structure. That is why it is interactive with respect to the community and why family structure also determines the community it forms the basis of.

I have to disagree. I believe there are ideas and models that work much better than others when it comes to raising a family. After reading Children of the Dream, by Bruno Bettelheim, Kibbutz Goshen: An Israeli Commune, by Alison M. Bowes, and other similar literature, I've come to the conclusion that communal child rearing is the only way to go for ensuring that all children have the advantage of being raised in a caring and supportive environment. Parents shouldn't be shouldered with total responsibility for child rearing. They need the full and devoted assistance of the community in the task.

In Kibbutz Goshen it says:

“... the fact that no delinquency, sexual aberrations or child neglect are to be found within its domain, that the incidence of emotional disturbances is low, that the physical, intellectual and ethical standards of the pupils are commendable, is a source of encouragement and evidence of substantial achievement. It is also our warrant for attempting to present communal education to a wider public.”

I believe all children should have a right to a communal education and that such an education would be greatly enhanced by biblical instruction.

BTW, I see you did not waste your time in the joint. Did you follow up with some real world academic credits to match the *jail house* OJT?

No, I can only learn through self-study due to a learning disability. Right now I'm studying vegetable gardening along with continued study of the Bible. I also spend a lot of time studying stuff I find of interest on the Internet.

You make a good case regardless of its validity and I think your skills would go far in the court room, especially since the process of jurisprudence values appeals to higher powers and judgemental attitudes. In this respect it is somewhat like the sciences, they just have somewhat competing authoritarian perspectives. Well that is whether we accept a natural law legal perspective, divine law, authoritarian, absolutist or relativist principles.

Thanks for the compliment. I lost enthusiasm for the secular law and the corrupt politics behind it sometime ago. After the fact punishment in criminal and civil law, just doesn't work to prevent bad behavior or motivate good behavior. I see no future in it and couldn't in good conscious make a living off it. My hope is in the perfect law that gives freedom and how it will strengthen the family and the community if applied correctly under fully democratic and communal conditions. A new society needs a new law.

I still, however, provide some free legal (secular law) advice and assistance to the prisoners, who write us, as a part of the ministry I'm involved in. I've also provided some advice and insight into the legal process to the pastor here who is representing himself in litigation.

which demonstrates why so many will forever fight the oppressive authoritarian aspects of the practical realities required to invoke the future you propose.

I certainly agree they will. It's prophesied to happen. They'll do this out of ignorance and wickedness, and because they refuse to make the necessary sacrifices needed to live in peace and harmony. Those opposed to righteous living are an unmerciful and sadistic minded people with their own selfish interests at heart.

The means to the ends you hope for invariably demand genocide in order to come about.

Yea, but this will involve a limited genocide brought about by Divine intervention in order to prevent a total genocide of man by man. You must agree that the world is poised for just such an event. Even Stephen Hawkings recognizes the seriousness of the problem and wants to leave the planet. See http://video.google....earch&plindex=0.

The problem with many of your perspectives are that they are myopically ethnocentric and unable to assimilate the reality of diversity that our species represents. There exists no *one model fits all* definition of human social structure, culture, or religion; not now, nor will there ever be one. Perhaps there shouldn't even be one because it represents the end of human progress, achievement, and growth.

Sharing a common legal standard and method of social organization will not prohibit diversity or inhibit creativity. There will be a new art, music, and literature produced, and people will have personal preferences and different ways of doing things. The human species will adapt to the new conditions as usual.

The new character of man (the modal personality type) that develops under the government of God during the Millennium will be motivated to progress in all areas of life out of a desire to serve God and the community. Human progress doesn't have to be motivated by conflict, oppression or material gain at the expense of others.

The model of the ancient ideal is not merely impractical, it is destructive. It was never then, what it is claimed to have been now. The reality was hard and cruel, not the idealize fantasy that those who are blindly nostalgic (as you appear to be) claim.

It didn't work in ancient times because of the primitiveness and ignorance of the people. It will work with the better educated people of today and the right advances in technology now on the horizon.

In the case of Pol Pot he was simply wrong in his goals but his methods were consistent with his invalid assumptions. The results were disastrous and literally millions died due to the fallacy of his beliefs.

Pol Pot is a good example of why we need to eschew atheism and violence. The right type of education coupled with successful models of communal living provide a better solution. The effects of global warming and our negative history of violence should supply a substantial amount of motivation to change to a new and better way of doing things.

[william7]

(elijah)

(LL)
In fact you validated my initial point with this response and it is one of the reasons I find most religious zealots of any stripe extremely suspect. Organized religion is the wolf in sheep's clothes that has become the real evil in the world today, hunting for minds to cripple and maintain as addicts to their psychotropics.

You're absolutely right! But do you agree that in most all cases these zealots, working in behalf of organized religion, are hunting for minds to cripple in order to achieve material wealth and luxury living, and that communal living based on the idealized view of the Bible I advocate - along with democratic principles - would be the antidote to the problem?

No, I do not agree. I think it is because misery loves company.

I also do not think you do not understand my point at all about the communal living option. If it is not voluntary, it is prison. If of divine origin then consider it a gilded cage but prison none the less.

The paradox is that if you make people want it (by divine or secular force), it is not voluntary. If you leave them no option, it is not voluntary and ultimately it results in Pol Pot pragmatics in order to sustain its existence.

You cannot have it both ways, free will means the freedom to choose alternatives and divine determinism is simply a form of fatal attraction for fatalism.

World conditions make it absolutely necessary that Divine intervention occur and the right way of living be shown to humanity. Man has shown throughout history he is not capable of providing just government. It's the "gilded cage" as you call it or continued crises and threats of extinction. Which is better? I prefer the longer and happier life of the gilded cage.

[william7]

(elijah)

(lazarus)
I am actually a proponent of intentional communities

Have you made any posts on this you can show me?

Have you noticed the number of posts next to my name?

No, I am not going to do your homework for you and for the record I just did provide you a post. I gave you my opinion without reservation and I stand by it. I will explain the perspective further but I am very consistent as most will attest to, even if at times they do not understand, or respect it.

I do not have to prove my openly expressed honest opinion.

I agree you have the right to an openly expressed and honest opinion without supplying proof. I was just hoping that may be you had started a thread on the topic of intentional communities that would provide me with insight.

[Lazarus Long]

World conditions make it absolutely necessary that Divine intervention occur and the right way of living be shown to humanity.

It may be necessary to your mind but what if it simply is not going to happen?

Are you going to sit on your thumbs and claim their is nothing we can do about it?

I think waiting for divine intervention is not merely a mistake it is a part of the problem as it excuses more abuse and offers no solutions.

Man has shown throughout history he is not capable of providing just government.

It is a growth and learning process. The trends have not been all bad but as we get better the threats become graver. It is like the little paradox of perfection I demonstrated a long time ago: "The better one becomes the worse the fewer faults they have".

We have seen this paradoxical aspect of progress throughout history. It has not stopped progress, nor should it be allowed to but it is a cautionary tale and one that has brought havoc from time to time. Progress does not occur in as a straight line growth.

It's the "gilded cage" as you call it or continued crises and threats of extinction. Which is better?

I prefer the longer and happier life of the gilded cage.

I am glad that you honestly present yourself elijah it makes our exchange more fruitful and rewarding to not merely us but casual and serious observers.

I strongly prefer the freedom to make mistakes and learn/grow from them. You can keep the safety of the cage. People are all too willing to give up freedom for security and generally that is how democracies revert to fascist states.

The easy path is the most dangerous. We don't need to be saved from ourselves. We need to stop hitting ourselves in the head with the hammer.

You have seen the dark side of humanity up close without a doubt. The prison system for its wrongs is not filled with the innocent even if some that do not belong there are forced to reside there.

I think this experience has diminished your confidence in your fellow man along with a search for hope from an alternative source. The true hope comes from within along with the recognition of the spirit that you claim. There is simply no "one size fits all" solution for humanity and its ills. It would be far more productive if we stopped looking for one.

[Lazarus Long]

I agree you have the right to an openly expressed and honest opinion without supplying proof. I was just hoping that may be you had started a thread on the topic of intentional communities that would provide me with insight.

I may have though it is far more likely I simply posted to the effect in a variety of places. I do not know if others have even deleted some of those threads/posts. I do suggest you frame your inquires carefully and use the google site search now available at the bottom of the page.

For example try "intentional community" and you may not only find my contributions but those of others.

[william7]

It may be necessary to your mind but what if it simply is not going to happen?

Are you going to sit on your thumbs and claim their is nothing we can do about it?

I think waiting for divine intervention is not merely a mistake it is a part of the problem as it excuses more abuse and offers no solutions.

Nobody has to wait. There's plenty of work to do right now planning and preparing for the obvious necessity of living modestly and simply in small communal societies. Exchanges of information and research is already taking place on ways to improve communal living by the International Communal Studies Association.

And, most importantly, people can study and see for themselves where the organized religions are misconstruing and misusing the Bible to the detriment of humanity. When the Bible is construed correctly and used to support communal living, you'll see real progress.

It is a growth and learning process.

I agree. However, like errant children, we need Divine guidance and assistance in the growing and the learning.

QUOTE=elijah 
It's the "gilded cage" as you call it or continued crises and threats of extinction. Which is better?

I prefer the longer and happier life of the gilded cage.


I am glad that you honestly present yourself elijah it makes our exchange more fruitful and rewarding to not merely us but casual and serious observers.

I may have misunderstood what you meant by the "gilded cage." I don't see any hidden perils, unnecessary restrictions or loss of liberty in communal living if it's done right.

I strongly prefer the freedom to make mistakes and learn/grow from them. You can keep the safety of the cage. People are all too willing to give up freedom for security and generally that is how democracies revert to fascist states.

What if the mistakes are too big and too many and have too great an impact on your neighbors? It isn't freedom for the neighbors is it? They then suffer a loss of life, liberty, and happiness. And, no amount of due process or constitutional protection will bring back the loss of life, liberty, or happiness once it's gone. Once it's gone it's gone and money is not a reasonable substitute. We are badly in need of a better law that will truly protect life, liberty and happiness in my opinion.

You have seen the dark side of humanity up close without a doubt. The prison system for its wrongs is not filled with the innocent even if some that do not belong there are forced to reside there.

Too much waste of human life in prison and to much harm to human life as a result of crime and the so-called criminal justice system. Because of the large number of exonerations due to DNA testing and other means in recent years, it is believed there are larger numbers of innocents in prison who are unable to prove their innocence than previously suspected - especially for less serious crimes where no biological evidence exists.

Look at how little crime was a problem in the kibbutz and how it was dealt with in most cases. In the book Kibbutz Goshen: An Israeli Commune, by Alison M. Bowes, she points out that:

"The characteristics of kibbutz organization decrease the likelihood that anyone will be brought to the attention of law enforcement agencies. First, the scope for crime on the kibbutz is narrow. There is little money and no banks, there are no deserted places to mug people, no one has access to funds long enough to embezzle them, drug addiction is expensive, etc. Since everyone knows everyone else, secret plotting would be very difficult. Secondly, the kibbutzim are very jealous of their autonomy and reputation. One way to protect this is to deal with possible criminal activities internally and, more often than not, informally. On Goshen, petty thefts, cases of vandalism, minor assaults and a 'peeping Tom' were dealt with internally. The property was returned, the vandalism repaired, the quarrels patched up, and women were warned about the harmless 'peeping Tom' and simply drew the curtains before undressing."

This is why I'm so in favor of communal living. I can easily envision a world made up of just small communal settlements where crime no longer exists. No more law enforcement, no prison industry, and no punitive practices of any sort. Can you imagine that! People would suffer less stress and live much longer in a world without punitive practices.