15 replies to this topic

[brain]

1. I recently began taking 20 mg of adderall XR daily. I've noticed that after about 7 hours of use the stimulant effect (as in increased energy levels, heightened alertness) will remain (and until i'm trying to sleep..), while the actual cognitive boost (comprehension, attention, thought) dies. It feels as though im "quicker" but working with a less apt brain. Adderall XR is said to last 12 hours. I'll especially when i'm reading, a paragraph will go by and i'll forget it almost instantly. It seems that it may be memory and not processing, but i can't be sure. Of course, this doesn't happen while the adderall is still effective, and doesn't really happen without adderall either. I'm 18 and i do have ADD.

I don't remember this happening the last time i took adderall. i've been taking it for 4 days. I believe this has happened every day, though one of the days included heavy marijuana usage in the evening, and i took it later in the day on day #1. I seem to have it while im writing this. L-tyrosine doesn't help, nor does choline bitartrate. I'm pretty sure im low on serotonin to begin with but i don't see any surely safe way of supplementing this, nor am i sure it would be of any help. I haven't had enough coffee today for it to be playing a role. I'm not taking any vit C (which decreases absorbiton of adderall). I can't find any information on this, and i suppose it could be a rebound effect, or possibly depleted dopamine. Like i said, i still feel the adderall buzz, only my brain isn't working correctly. I have a habbit of working my brain pretty hard, and maybe i just need to eat more food while i take it. I've got a fast metabolism and im already skinny.

2. Does this stack seem compatable with adderall?

alpha-lipoic-acid 100mg 1x daily
100% RDA DHA (2 grams, i believe)
panax ginseng w royal jelly, 1 vial daily
1 - 2 cups coffee daily
20 drops GAIA gingko extract, 2x daily
ALCAR 1000 MG 2x daily (i cycle this, and don't use it too often)
Jarrows grape seed 99:1 extract
multi-b
b6 50 mg
magnesium citrate 75% RDA
rhodiola rosea 125 mg in morning
choline/inositol 500/500(as needed)
(other ADD suggestions, anyone?)

Apologies for fragmentation/length of post. Advice is very appreciated.

[ajnast4r]

i dont see why you would need coffee on 20mg adderal

i would look into interactions between rhodiola/ginseng and adderal... alcar? why?

sounds to me like you are WAY WAY over stimulating yourself...

[rebuild101]

I'll second on the over stim. If you drink coffee for the taste, try switching to decaf or at the least, half-cafe. Of course, you'd want to lower gradually to minimize withdrawal.

If you have good reason to believe you are serotonin deficient, have you tried 5-HTP? Keep us up to date on how it goes...

[lucid]

I always get a big big come down after taking aderall. After my 8-12 hour brain fest, I get like 4 hours of well... erm... being an american.

[bob_d]

I believe this has happened every day, though one of the days included heavy marijuana usage in the evening, and i took it later in the day on day #1.

adderall and thc can cause a hypertensive crisis if taken together. so better stop combining them.

[ajnast4r]

smoking weed while taking adderall is retardedly counterproductive

[brain]

advice taken re: stimulants. my stack isn't a daily regimen exactly, i take the supplements as needed, and differen't supplements on different days since several of them are anticoagulants. the stack was somewhat fueled by a search for natural antidepressants and adhd remedies. i've tried a lot of them, and none have been very sucessfull. i may just stick to a multi and a healthy diet.

I always get a big big come down after taking aderall. After my 8-12 hour brain fest, I get like 4 hours of well... erm... being an american.

i would be fine with 8 - 12 hours! today i began to notice it after 4. mispronunciations started to pour out of my mouth. no coffee and no supplements were taken. even these slightest deficiencies are very bothersome to me in general, and becasue im starting my first year in college and 5 - 7 hours of productivity after waking up isn't really enough. interestingly enough, caffiene shouldn't be the problem:

Caffeine is also a known competitive inhibitor of the enzyme cAMP-phosphodiesterase (cAMP-PDE), which converts cyclic AMP (cAMP) in cells to its noncyclic form, allowing cAMP to build up in cells. Cyclic AMP participates in activation of Protein Kinase A (PKA) to begin the phosphorylation of specific enzymes used in glucose synthesis. By blocking its removal caffeine intensifies and prolongs the effects of epinephrine and epinephrine-like drugs such as amphetamine, methamphetamine, or methylphenidate. Increased concentrations of cAMP in parietal cells causes an increased activation of protein kinase A (PKA) which in turn increases activation of H+/K+ ATPase, resulting finally in increased gastric acid secretion by the cell.

but im at a loss here. the effects under the same dosage would last at least 8 - 9 hours no less than 4 months ago. time to forget about it, i guess.

[bob_d]

i would be fine with 8 - 12 hours! today i began to notice it after 4. mispronunciations started to pour out of my mouth. no coffee and no supplements were taken. even these slightest deficiencies are very bothersome to me in general, and becasue im starting my first year in college and 5 - 7 hours of productivity after waking up isn't really enough. interestingly enough, caffiene shouldn't be the problem:

5 - 7 hours of susatined productivity is a lot. especially when learning hard. if you could you work longer in past, there are several possibilities why your performance is bad now: how long did take adderall in past, what where your doses since starting it for the first time and how long did you pause? it happens that your body accustoms to high doses while using a drug and if you discontinue it and then start using it again after some time with your last dosing it is way too much for you. the crashing you describe fits ajnast4rs overstimulation theorie perfectly. so mayber you should take less adderall. what about your college year? is it starting now and have you stopped learning for a longer period of time? concentration and thinking is a skill which has to be built up again after not using it for several weeks. so don't expect to much of yourself. have you smoked pot often or drank much alcohol in the last month? that can really screw your brain, too.

interestingly enough, caffiene shouldn't be the problem:

not if you have already too much buzz. do you have one of the convenient little blood pressure meters at hand, modern days technology pleases us with? then you could measure your bp shortly before and lets say about every 2 hours after you take your adderall until the evening. first it's interesting. second if your bp sky rockets you know for sure your adderall dose is way to much. if you don't know how to measure bp, old people can tell you [thumb]

Edited by bob_d, 29 August 2007 - 02:28 AM.

[brain]

the problem is that i have to take it before noon, so i can sleep at night. i have around two classes every day (generally after noon), and 7 hours isn't always enough time for two classes and homework. the things i do at home also require some brain power, so its frustrating for those to be dampened. you may be right about me using more mental energy than i have. now even my daydreams are "focused".

i stoped taking it in june, and i had only been taking it for a month before that. i've been taking it for about 5 days now.

[bob_d]

why don't you take two immediate release pills instead of one xr? you could try to get up early and do the preparation for your courses in the morning right after the first dose of adderall. then you could take a lunch time break of several hours and maybe even sleep half an hour before visiting your courses right after taking your second dose. this could give your body some time to come down throughout the day and rebuild some mental energy, which in turn could prolong your productive hours.

i stoped taking it in june, and i had only been taking it for a month before that. i've been taking it for about 5 days now.

so you aren't taking it very long and comparing now to the first time you took it is pretty senseless. start with xr is problematic anyway. normally you get the lowest dose of immediate realse first and then gradually increase until there is no more benefit.

[graatch]

Adderall contains levo-amphetamine and dextro-amphetamine. Levo-amphetamine's half life is longer. Levo-amphetamine does not cross the blood-brain barrier well, and induces mostly peripheral stimulatory effects like heartrate increase, vasoconstriction, jitters, etc.

If you've decided on amphetamine treatment for ADD/ADHD, I suggest that dexedrine spansules (containing only d-amphetamine), or Dexedrine, are a better bet for most than Adderall XR.

Cheaper too.

[graatch]

>i would look into interactions between rhodiola ... and adderal

If there really is an interaction between rhodiola's MAOI properties (and I doubt it would be significant, because I don't think rhodiola is that significant of a MAOI) then it would be little more than a potentiation/increased blood levels of adderall and catecholamines. If he's comfortable with the effect provided by the regimen, I don't think there would be any problem.

Actually I think rhodiola's augmentation of stress-resistance and encouragement of more "relaxed-focus" states is a wonderfully conceived match for someone taking daily amphetamine.

[graatch]

>adderall and thc can cause a hypertensive crisis if taken together. so better stop combining them.

I call bullshit. Cite?

> smoking weed while taking adderall is retardedly counterproductive

The few times I did that I found it very productive, actually.

[brain]

i believed that i solved the problem. i was drinking so much water that certain amphetamine salts were leaving my body precociously and creating an imbalance of sorts. thanks, everyone.

>adderall and thc can cause a hypertensive crisis if taken together. so better stop combining them.

i agree that the combination is excellent and not counterproductive at all. they both compliment each other well, and you could even push that each removes the negative side effects of the other. during my last adderall spree i used the combination for weeks without ill effect. in fact, it would kind of make a pretty nice antidepressant.

[bob_d]

I call bullshit. Cite?

ampehtamines can cause hypertensive crisis on their own while cannabis is despite its normally bp lowering effect known for increasing bp in some people, which is very dangerous in combination with an already bp increasing med( and lots of coffe). furthermore thc is inhibting several p450 enzymes (at exapmle cyp3A4 which is involved in amphetamine metabolism) and therefore increases the actions of ampehtamines even further. there are compounds in the cannabis plant that may have the potential to counter this effect, but how far that works in living persons is discussed at moment. in the end it will imho turn out that the effects of cannabis on p450 depend on your personal metabolism and how your pot was grown and accordingly what the ratio between the components in question is. i'm not even mentioning the good old schizophrenia argument everyone uses against cannabis and which is especially true with this combination. i believe the fun of combining both drugs is not worth the risk. but you may as well see it differently.

i agree that the combination is excellent and not counterproductive at all. they both compliment each other well, and you could even push that each removes the negative side effects of the other. during my last adderall spree i used the combination for weeks without ill effect. in fact, it would kind of make a pretty nice antidepressant.

it feels good and is fun. but it definitely impairs working memory and concentration. sorry, but you don't have to wonder that you are not performing as good as you want if you smoke pot. the negative effects on performance can last several weeks after heavy use. because of that it is not allowed in most countries to drive cars anymore, if it emerges that you are a steady user. it is ridiculous to take stimulants to counter add like symptoms without first stopping to smoke cannabis. are you depressed, actually?

Levo-amphetamine does not cross the blood-brain barrier well, and induces mostly peripheral stimulatory effects like heartrate increase, vasoconstriction, jitters, etc.

i haven't found anything about the bbb thing. but l-a is definitely a central stimulant and it acts faster than d-a and with a shorter duration. therefore it should cross the barrier better. it is discussed, whether l-a increases rather the levels of epinephrine than the levels of dopamine in the brain and therefore acts differently than d-a. adderall is mostly d-a by the way.

plasma levels of d and l amphetamine:

i believed that i solved the problem. i was drinking so much water that certain amphetamine salts were leaving my body precociously and creating an imbalance of sorts. thanks, everyone.

bath tub like much?

[neuron914]

I THINK THAT ALOT OF YOU ARE OVERLOOKING A VERY FUNDAMENTAL PROPERTY OF DRUGS AND BEHAVIOR IN YOUR COMMENTS WHICH IS: EVERYONE HAS A DIFFERENT BRAIN CHEMISTRY. DO NOT ASSUME THAT BECAUSE SEVERAL STUDIES OF RATS AND YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES HAVE BEEN SUCH THAT THE COMBINATION OF THC AND AMPHETAMINE SEEMS LIMITING AND COUNTERPRODUCTIVE, THAT THIS APPLIES TO ALL CASES. IN ADDITION, ASSUMING THAT THE IMBALANCE MAY BE 5-HT MIGHT ALSO BE POTENTIALLY FLAWED. QUITE SIMPLY, THERE IS NOT ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT ANY OF THEORIES POSTULATED ABOVE. WHILE YOU CAN CITE SEVERAL STUDIES THAT WOULD MAKE YOUR CONCLUSIONS PLAUSIBLE, THERE ARE ALSO ENOUGH STUDIES OUT THERE THAT ALL THESE HYPOTHESES CAN BE COUNTERED. STUDIES ON RATS ARE NOT SO RELEVANT WHEN CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT THEY ARE ADMINISTERED THESE DRUGS WITHOUT CONSENT OR WILLINGNESS. UNLIKE THE CASE WITH US, THEY DO NOT ALREADY HAVE A PRECONCEPTION OF THE POTENTIAL RESULTS THAT THESE DRUGS WILL HAVE UPON THEM.


ALSO, NOT EVERYONE IS SO SENSITIVE TO MARIJUANA. THE REASON THAT THERE IS AN ENTIRE MASS SUBCULTURE THAT THRIVES OFF OF IT IS, IS BECASUE IT IS INDIRECTLY LINKED TO THE REWARD DA PATHWAY. BELIEVE IT OR NOT, SOME PEOPLE ARE HIGHLY PRODUCTIVE AS A RESULT OF THC. IT RELAXES OVERSTIMULATED AND FIRING NEURONS WHEN AMPHETAMINES BLOCK DAT AND RELEASE DA BY ACTING ON GABA. SOME STUDIES INDICATE THAT IT REINFORCES THE REWARD PROPERTIES OF DA.

THE REASON THAT YOU CANNOT RETAIN WAHT YOU READ IS BECAUSE THE DA SYSTEM AFFECTS LTP, THE PROCESS BY WHICH YOU LEARN AND FORM MEMORIES WHEN DA IS FIRING, AND IT IS CAUSING CHANGES TO YOUR NEURONAL PLASTICITY. YOU ARE PROBABLY SENSITIZED. EITHER INCREASE YOUR DOSAGE OR LAY OFF FOR 1-2 WEEKS AND CONSTANTLY SWITCH ON AND OFF THE THE ADDERALL SO THAT MAINTAIN PLASTICITY