24 replies to this topic

[tarbtl]

Hey guys,

This post is going to be a bit all over the place but I hope some people can get something out of it and maybe help me out as well. Share experiences and such.

OK. At the beginning of 2007 I discovered a guy named Henry Rollins. He used to be a musician but now does "Spoken Word" tours. The way he speaks is absolutely incredible. He is the most articulate guy I've ever heard.

Ever since then I've collected all his spoken word CDs and listened to them all countless times.

This, to me, was so inspiring that it broke me out of a deep depression I was spiraling into. At that point I realized I had a life goal. I wanted to become as articulate as this guy.

Now, keep in mind, English isn't exactly my first language. Although I sound just like any other American, I only started learning English at the age of about 7, so I think that put me at a bit of a disadvantage as far as brain development goes. Research clearly shows that the critical years for learning and assimilating a language is ages 1-8.

OK. No matter. I plow through. On I go. So what I've been doing daily for the past 7 months (2-3 hours a day) is listening to Henry's spoken word tapes and repeating EXACTLY what he says. I'm not doing to rip his stories or material or anything like that. My goal is purely technical, to broaden my vocabulary, wit, speed and articulation.

The way my mind operates is kind of weird. Like what I'm typing now is kind of free-flowing from my thoughts. I haven't thought twice about anything I've written so far and I guess it makes some sense. But when I talk... it's much more complicated. Words don't come as fast and oftentimes, unless I speak slowly, people have a hard time understanding me. I have a hard time getting my point across.

One thing I've neglected is writing. I've heard from a lot of people that it has helped them, but I don't really know where to begin.

Basically, I wanna become as articulate and witty as I possibly can. Sounds kind of selfish but it's all I'm really interested in at this point in life. So why not?

Any input would be appreciated.

[niner]

Tarbtl, that's a great goal. I can say a couple things.. Rollins is an impressive guy; I'm with you there. Your written English is not bad at all. I wouldn't worry about your brain development, because you were exercising it in whatever your native language was, unless you were in a silent orphanage or something. The main thing that I wanted to mention to you was the value of practice. A while back in my job I became a group leader, and found myself speaking a lot more. At first it was only so-so, but at some point I noticed, like, wow- I could really spew with alacrity. So practice makes perfect, just like in most everything. Writing is a great thing to get good at, and ya know what? You are already pretty good at it. I can say that just from reading your posts here. The Internet is very writing oriented, so that's one place to practice. You could also keep a journal. I don't know if there would be an interaction between technical writing and speaking, although there might be. Technical writing is a valuable skill in its own right. Listening to people who are good at it, like Henry Rollins, is also a good approach. I picked up a lot of tips from my graduate advisor (I learned a lot about dodging and weaving from him...), bosses, and various others.

[tarbtl]

Thanks for the helpful advice niner!

I landed a job in direct sales at the beginning of the summer, and at age 19, I'm already one of the company's top sellers.

You're right about practice and repetition. It's so key. I've been recording my speaking ever since i started in January and I noticed a huge improvement.

For me however, I have the most trouble with story telling and putting into words what my imagination is doing.

I have less problems with technical stuff and direct orders, which, I guess, is why I am having some level of success in my sales job.

I am currently uploading a bit that i Recorded yesterday, to give you guys an idea of where I'm at.

PS: To all the people here who are "depressed" or experiencing brain fog, the best advice I can give you is getting a job where you interact with people a LOT. It made such a night and day difference for me

EDIT: I just remembered you mentioned that as long as I was speaking at an early age it shouldn't be a problem. Well, my native language is russian, and I'm pretty fluent in that. I guess my reasoning is people who were born in an english speaking community have a larger part of their brain dedicated to the language and thus it is easier for them to articulate their thoughts into words. The way I see articulate people speak it always amazes me at how effortless it seems. It's really something most people don't appreciate these days. God knows why I'm so fascinated by it.

Again, thanks for the advice.

EDIT: I uploaded my thing. Heres the link: (right click, save)

Edited by tarbtl, 05 September 2007 - 05:34 AM.

[brotherx]

Hi tarbtl,

I am also not a native - but what I read from your lines - and hear from your .mp3 is that neither your language skills nor the speed you communicate is an issue.
The one thing you might want to improve is structuring your communication.

As you said at the very beginning of your post is that your words just run out of your mouth while writing.
I had exactly this feeling as I listened to your .mp3. And that is why I got a little bit lost.

Give the people an agenda what you are going to say (a picture, a vision, something to share). Then say it.

Cheers

Alex

Thanks for the helpful advice niner!

I landed a job in direct sales at the beginning of the summer, and at age 19, I'm already one of the company's top sellers.

You're right about practice and repetition. It's so key. I've been recording my speaking ever since i started in January and I noticed a huge improvement.

For me however, I have the most trouble with story telling and putting into words what my imagination is doing.

I have less problems with technical stuff and direct orders, which, I guess, is why I am having some level of success in my sales job.

I am currently uploading a bit that i Recorded yesterday, to give you guys an idea of where I'm at.

PS: To all the people here who are "depressed" or experiencing brain fog, the best advice I can give you is getting a job where you interact with people a LOT. It made such a night and day difference for me

EDIT: I just remembered you mentioned that as long as I was speaking at an early age it shouldn't be a problem. Well, my native language is russian, and I'm pretty fluent in that. I guess my reasoning is people who were born in an english speaking community have a larger part of their brain dedicated to the language and thus it is easier for them to articulate their thoughts into words. The way I see articulate people speak it always amazes me at how effortless it seems. It's really something most people don't appreciate these days. God knows why I'm so fascinated by it.

Again, thanks for the advice.

EDIT: I uploaded my thing. Heres the link:   (right click, save)

Edited by brotherx, 06 September 2007 - 12:42 AM.

[graatch]

>Well, my native language is russian, and I'm pretty fluent in that. I guess my reasoning is people who were born in an english speaking community have a larger part of their brain dedicated to the language and thus it is easier for them to articulate their thoughts into words

Ever read Nabokov?

[luminous]

Just curious, tarbtl...Why do you say that people who grew up speaking English have a larger part of their brain dedicated to language compared with others?

[jubai]

Just curious, tarbtl...Why do you say that people who grew up speaking English have a larger part of their brain dedicated to language compared with others?

I'm curious too, English beeing a simpler, straigther, arguably less complex and poetic language, wouldn't it logically develop the brain LESS than a more complex language?

Especially since a lot of English-native only speak 1 language when other peolpe often learn a second language at age 6-8, developping new neurones, concepts and cultural understanding early?


Ex: Most chinese learn English in a satisfactory way in a reasonable time-frame.

How many Americans age 6-40 could learn Chinese in a reasonable time-frame even if they HAD the motivation to do so?

[graatch]

For the non-Englishers: He didn't say English speakers have a larger part of their brain dedicated to language, he said they have a larger part of their brain dedicated to THEIR language.

[Live Forever]

Just curious, tarbtl...Why do you say that people who grew up speaking English have a larger part of their brain dedicated to language compared with others?

I'm curious too, English beeing a simpler, straigther, arguably less complex and poetic language, wouldn't it logically develop the brain LESS than a more complex language?

Especially since a lot of English-native only speak 1 language when other peolpe often learn a second language at age 6-8, developping new neurones, concepts and cultural understanding early?


Ex: Most chinese learn English in a satisfactory way in a reasonable time-frame.

How many Americans age 6-40 could learn Chinese in a reasonable time-frame even if they HAD the motivation to do so?

Of course you could also say that since the language was less complex, it allowed for the easier transmission of ideas and thoughts. Also, it would free the brain for other tasks instead of focusing as much processing power on articulating the idea.

Most of the time in data transmission or processing of any kind, you want to make it as easy to transmit and process as possible, thereby freeing the computational device (in this case the brain) for other tasks.

[dave111]

This is a huge goal for me too. Unfortunately, there's but so much time in the day for this type stuff. The single best way to improve your communication ability would probably be to take a top seduction class (which focuses on this stuff) or, the second best approach (but more affordable) would be improvisation comedy and acting training, in my opinion.

There are also tangential clases that help with underlying communication skills, such as vocal projection and alexander technique (for body language).

[brotherx]

Interesting thought - Live forever,

but tell me how would you describe for example a certain type of color - a certain type of green - if there is no word for it in your language?
How would you describe a certain type of snow if the language just do not recognize it? Is it then easier to transmit the ideas, thoughts and impressions?
Or is it just more difficult?

How can you describe a certain emotion - if there is just no word for it in your language? You have to use a lot of simple words to develop your complex structure?
Why is it that men and woman often say the same thing - but means something totally different?

What do you think about the following expression:
“Watch your thoughts, for they become words.
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.”

Couldn't this mean that words (the language, complex, non-complex) form our thinking as well and have an huge impact on our habits?

Best regards from Germany

Alex

Just curious, tarbtl...Why do you say that people who grew up speaking English have a larger part of their brain dedicated to language compared with others?

I'm curious too, English beeing a simpler, straigther, arguably less complex and poetic language, wouldn't it logically develop the brain LESS than a more complex language?

Especially since a lot of English-native only speak 1 language when other peolpe often learn a second language at age 6-8, developping new neurones, concepts and cultural understanding early?


Ex: Most chinese learn English in a satisfactory way in a reasonable time-frame.

How many Americans age 6-40 could learn Chinese in a reasonable time-frame even if they HAD the motivation to do so?

Of course you could also say that since the language was less complex, it allowed for the easier transmission of ideas and thoughts. Also, it would free the brain for other tasks instead of focusing as much processing power on articulating the idea.

Most of the time in data transmission or processing of any kind, you want to make it as easy to transmit and process as possible, thereby freeing the computational device (in this case the brain) for other tasks.

[niner]

English is simpler than what? Russian? My impression was that English was a fairly non-regular language. That imparts a certain useless complexity... Yet, when looking at translations of the same concept into various languages side by side, it's been my observation that English usually uses less text than most other languages. This might suggest a higher information density, or it might just be an artifact of poor translation.

Brotherx makes some good points about language determining what you can think.

[Live Forever]

Interesting thought - Live forever,

but tell me how would you describe for example a certain type of color - a certain type of green - if there is no word for it in your language?
How would you describe a certain type of snow if the language just do not recognize it? Is it then easier to transmit the ideas, thoughts and impressions?
Or is it just more difficult?

How can you describe a certain emotion - if there is just no word for it in your language? You have to use a lot of simple words to develop your complex structure?
Why is it that men and woman often say the same thing - but means something totally different?

What do you think about the following expression:
“Watch your thoughts, for they become words.
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.”

Couldn't this mean that words (the language, complex, non-complex) form our thinking as well and have an huge impact on our habits?

Best regards from Germany

Alex

Just curious, tarbtl...Why do you say that people who grew up speaking English have a larger part of their brain dedicated to language compared with others?

I'm curious too, English beeing a simpler, straigther, arguably less complex and poetic language, wouldn't it logically develop the brain LESS than a more complex language?

Especially since a lot of English-native only speak 1 language when other peolpe often learn a second language at age 6-8, developping new neurones, concepts and cultural understanding early?


Ex: Most chinese learn English in a satisfactory way in a reasonable time-frame.

How many Americans age 6-40 could learn Chinese in a reasonable time-frame even if they HAD the motivation to do so?

Of course you could also say that since the language was less complex, it allowed for the easier transmission of ideas and thoughts. Also, it would free the brain for other tasks instead of focusing as much processing power on articulating the idea.

Most of the time in data transmission or processing of any kind, you want to make it as easy to transmit and process as possible, thereby freeing the computational device (in this case the brain) for other tasks.

Well, you are really proving my point. If there is a simple word to describe something (aka a simple language) then you can describe things in less words and in more detail with less overall information. If describing snow (or anything else) takes 20 syllables in one language (the more complex language) and only takes 10 sylables in another language (the simpler language) then it takes less time and effort to describe such a thing. Now if there is nothing whatsoever to describe something, that is a world of difference apart from being simpler. We are just talking about a simpler way to describe things (via language) here. Less informational processing or informational transmission = more informational content per minute and more informational processing devoted to other things. This is just a simple rule of computing as most people understand it. (and I just assume it applies to human brainpower as well, but I have no idea)

This was the whole reason for the creation of Esporanto. (to create a language that was as easy to use and simple as possible for those who learned it to use) Unfortunately, it never really caught on, but the same reason for wanting such a universal language that was simple to learn still applies.

[graatch]

>If describing snow (or anything else) takes 20 syllables in one language (the more complex language) and only takes 10 sylables in another language (the simpler language) then it takes less time and effort to describe such a thing

Okay but there's something to be said for nuance. The associative quality of words in a language.

[brotherx]

Coming from that point - I totally agree with you - but I wouldn't call it a 'simpler language" then but a more elaborated language.
I was initially referring to jubai's point who said: "I'm curious too, English beeing a simpler, straigther, arguably less complex and poetic language, wouldn't it logically develop the brain LESS than a more complex language?"

Cheers

Alex

Interesting thought - Live forever,


Alex

Just curious, tarbtl...Why do you say that people who grew up speaking English have a larger part of their brain dedicated to language compared with others?

I'm curious too, English beeing a simpler, straigther, arguably less complex and poetic language, wouldn't it logically develop the brain LESS than a more complex language?

Especially since a lot of English-native only speak 1 language when other peolpe often learn a second language at age 6-8, developping new neurones, concepts and cultural understanding early?


Ex: Most chinese learn English in a satisfactory way in a reasonable time-frame.

How many Americans age 6-40 could learn Chinese in a reasonable time-frame even if they HAD the motivation to do so?

Of course you could also say that since the language was less complex, it allowed for the easier transmission of ideas and thoughts. Also, it would free the brain for other tasks instead of focusing as much processing power on articulating the idea.

Most of the time in data transmission or processing of any kind, you want to make it as easy to transmit and process as possible, thereby freeing the computational device (in this case the brain) for other tasks.

Well, you are really proving my point. If there is a simple word to describe something (aka a simple language) then you can describe things in less words and in more detail with less overall information. If describing snow (or anything else) takes 20 syllables in one language (the more complex language) and only takes 10 sylables in another language (the simpler language) then it takes less time and effort to describe such a thing. Now if there is nothing whatsoever to describe something, that is a world of difference apart from being simpler. We are just talking about a simpler way to describe things (via language) here. Less informational processing or informational transmission = more informational content per minute and more informational processing devoted to other things. This is just a simple rule of computing as most people understand it. (and I just assume it applies to human brainpower as well, but I have no idea)

This was the whole reason for the creation of Esporanto. (to create a language that was as easy to use and simple as possible for those who learned it to use) Unfortunately, it never really caught on, but the same reason for wanting such a universal language that was simple to learn still applies.

[tarbtl]

Hey guys, first of all I appreciate all the debate this has sprung - this is exactly what I was hoping for.

The point I was originally trying to make was that people who were born in an english-speaking community already have a large part of their brains programmed for english during the critical years (ages 1-8). Same as a kid who was born in Russia with the Russian language.

Have them each learn their counterpart's language at age 10 for example, and the brain will never be able to fill out as much space as their original language.

I read in a book about brains (the brain that changes itself/.. highly recommended reading!) That there is a critical period that ends at about age 8 where all the subtleties of language are assimilates very systematically and effortlessly into a brain region which "closes " down after that critical period of learning. It's why Japanese people have a hard time discerning some of our syllables. It's all on an audio-processing level for them, not comprehension (their ears hear different syllables as one sound).

So me, what I'm trying to accomplish is becoming a fast-speaking, witty,articulate guy with not necessarily the broadest vocabulary, but just an incredibly fast-thinking mind.

It's a long and hard road, I mean, I've been going at this relentlessly for almost a year now and although the improvements have been huge, I am always sort of seeing that an inherent neurological disadvantage will stand in my way.

BTW, It's not it's any easier for me with native language. What I mean when I say that for native english speakers its easier, is because they have to put ZERO thought into proper pronunciation and speed of talking.

I can manage to speak PERFECT english at normal talking speed but rav up the pace a little bit and you'll see in which areas I fall short.

As you can see, I'm not content with the average, and maybe the above will make it easier for some to understand what i'm trying to accomplish.

That's why I completely ENVY people who have "ADD". The "sped up on crack" kind. Henry has had it all his life and although he sometimes falls into deep depressions, it's definitely helped shape his life and has given at least half of his ability to communicate the way he does.

[electricbuddha]

Depending on your age, a public speaking class at a local university or college should do wonders. It was a prerequisite at mine, and I came in thinking it was just the usual drain on my student loans. In retrospect, it was one of the most important classes I wound up taking. Given a good teacher, it can work wonders.

Part of that class was also being forced into participating in toastmasters, a public speaking exercise group which can be found pretty much anywhere in the states. It can be a bit constraining in the amount of rules present, and the overly formal air, but that too can be a useful tool.

Other than that, my only advice is to keep careful watch on your emotions while talking. Huge amounts of communication is due to unconscious emotional tone and posture.

Oh, also, I agree that Rollins is awesome.

[brotherx]

Rollins is a star - same here ;-)

Depending on your age, a public speaking class at a local university or college should do wonders. It was a prerequisite at mine, and I came in thinking it was just the usual drain on my student loans. In retrospect, it was one of the most important classes I wound up taking. Given a good teacher, it can work wonders.

Part of that class was also being forced into participating in toastmasters, a public speaking exercise group which can be found pretty much anywhere in the states. It can be a bit constraining in the amount of rules present, and the overly formal air, but that too can be a useful tool.

Other than that, my only advice is to keep careful watch on your emotions while talking. Huge amounts of communication is due to unconscious emotional tone and posture.

Oh, also, I agree that Rollins is awesome.

[graatch]

>That's why I completely ENVY people who have "ADD". The "sped up on crack" kind. Henry has had it all his life and although he sometimes falls into deep depressions, it's definitely helped shape his life and has given at least half of his ability to communicate the way he does

I think it's probably hypomania.

[tarbtl]

>That's why I completely ENVY people who have "ADD". The "sped up on crack" kind. Henry has had it all his life and although he sometimes falls into deep depressions, it's definitely helped shape his life and has given at least half of his ability to communicate the way he does

I think it's probably hypomania.

After reading the wiki on hypomania, I think you're spot on.

He was all wired up on ritalin during his teen years but did not like it at all.

He often falls into deep depressions though, and leads a generally unhappy life (just read any one of his books).

He has impeccable memory recall, vocabulary and lightning fast reflexes (thought processing).

In what way is the hypomaniac's brain functioning higher than the average person's? That would be an interesting topic to investigate.

[narcissistic]

To me it's a big deferens between speaking and righting. When I take (in my first language) I usually have a wary good ability to make my point or convince people (with out being a smart ass). Some times words or idée simply come up spontaneously I’m not exactly sure what they mean but I have a general idée and I do know that it’s not the wrong context to use them. Everything spontaneously comes in the right order to even throw I don’t have a clear picture abbot what I’m going to say. This usually works wary well for me. And I think its fun to.

When I try to right some thing on the other hand it’s a lot harder to give it all a good context. Partly I thing this is due to the fact that one inevitably write allot slower then one speaks, If a person talk to some one for five minutes he has got the chance to say a lot and its not hard to survey what has bin said 5 minutes ago either. Righting is a different thing, only this short text did take abbot 4 minutes to right down. To me this makes it alot harder.

But I guess some people on the contrary benefit from being able to right it down and change it.

[tarbtl]

Bump on this. Anyone here have hypomania? How's it like living with it...?

[dave111]

Bump on this. Anyone here have hypomania? How's it like living with it...?

Although not formally diagnosed, I probable have functional hypomania. It's great. I'm pretty much happy all the time, which gives me the luxury to do things rather than pursue happiness. Like to try to maximize my persistence odds. Also that extremely creative, productive period that bipolar people have when they're manic: I pretty much have it all the time. There are downsides: I have to remind myself to fake sadness at moments like funerals of people close to me, but even at those moments internally I'm experiencing kind of a giddy high. Generally, I've learned to hide it ("cover" would probably be the social science term) so as not to experience social costs when it's not in my interest to appear happy.

My blog: http://www.hopeanon.typepad.com

Edited by dave111, 22 April 2008 - 10:03 AM.

[Yearningforyears]

I guess you should dive into your skull and really think about why this is so important to you. Being quiet is very underrated.
No matter how great your wittiness is, a lot of people probably would misunderstand it anyway. But sure... Go on. Having goals is important. (but realizing what lies behind motivation is equally important to achieving to goal itself I think). May the gods spread their angelic dust of good fortune, to guide you in thy noble quest for a higher intellect.

Edited by Nicholas, 22 April 2008 - 04:00 PM.

[tarbtl]

I guess you should dive into your skull and really think about why this is so important to you. Being quiet is very underrated.
No matter how great your wittiness is, a lot of people probably would misunderstand it anyway. But sure... Go on. Having goals is important. (but realizing what lies behind motivation is equally important to achieving to goal itself I think). May the gods spread their angelic dust of good fortune, to guide you in thy noble quest for a higher intellect.

Ironically, there is a lot more truth to your post than I would have agreed on when first making this thread a long time ago.

So yah, I agree. My goals have changed, but it was quite the learning experience.