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N-acetylcysteine (NAC)..safe?


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#61 trh001

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Posted 12 September 2007 - 06:34 PM

I asked Roger Mason, who's a biochemist from this website : http://youngagain.com/ Yes I know he's selling supps. but I think this man is very honest given the low prices of his supps. and only sells supplements with good science behind them.


Anyway, I asked him to share his take on the NAC study and this is what he wrote :

you really need to be more discriminating here. if there are 100 studies that
say NAC is a valid supplement, and 1 study that says it isn't, who are you
going to believe? have you read the study? of course you haven't. did you
notice it was done on mice? do  you have any idea how much they were
given or if they were injected? of course you don't. you read one article
on the internet by a MEDICAL DOCTOR who eats garbage, never take
supplements or hormones, poisons people and butchers them, and you're
ready to throw your NAC in the trash. not very rational, huh?
do you think i do this part time after i get home from my real job? i have
an entire file on NAC. every month we get more clinical proof of the
effectiveness. why do you think we sell NAC when we only sell 65
supplements?
i will bet money the mice were injected and totally overdosed to the
point of ridiculousness. what kind of "study" is that?



Well, we know, per my post above that the dose was oral, in drinking water. Never the less, the dosing seemed to me (see above) to depart from anything resembling what folks on this site are taking, both in estimated mg/kg and in dosing schedule. Still, this is highly speculative.

Moving on, the appeal made directly above, seems visceral, and the logic a bit tortured. The potential for bias is obvious, as the conveyer of critique notes, as well.

Clearly there is no overall Gaussian distribution that one can reference reliably wrt to number of published papers with some overall binary score (good/bad).

Studies measure what they will and differ according to (as the person above in fact notes) the focus of what they measure, as well as design (dosing, route, length of study, and in vitro/vivo, and species, quality of journal and rigorousness of peer review, etc, etc).

Averaging over all this isn't possible, and simply looking at a new metric or surrogate marker can refocus research in meaningful ways, such that papers published following this change of focus will differ dramatically in their assessment compared to those prior.

We also know that small differences in dosing can be meaningful if the LD50 is close to the ED50 for a *given target*.

We also know that something like a BP rise might be subtle (as one person noted above), will not likely be reported to a central clearinghouse of information to look for patterns.

We also know that doctors don't reliably debrief, and patients may not want to divulge, wrt to supplement use.

The best we can say at this point is we don't know, which is generally *all* that one can say about any supplement.

I'm reminded of a recent link between antidepressant (?) use and heart valve disorders -- a prescription med that was in use for the past 20-30 years without note: they only found the evidence when they looked.

The take home is there is no linear progression, nor any statistical titration, yielding greater truth/safety in associated with greater degrees of published literature that fails to note a problem, in general, and certainly not for one that wasn't specifically looked for.

Put another way, absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence.

#62 chipdouglas

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Posted 12 September 2007 - 08:48 PM

What do LD50 and ED50 mean ?

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#63 tintinet

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Posted 12 September 2007 - 11:53 PM

Semi-non-sequitur

#64 zoolander

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Posted 13 September 2007 - 01:10 AM

Wow that biochemist really has it in for doctors. Not all doctors eat garbage and the poisons he refers to are sometimes medications required to save a persons life. He also mentions butchering as well. Wow he really has a beef.

I don't think he has even read the study himself but in a very condescending manner keeps saying that you haven't. I guess he has lost his bet as well. BUZZER!

I'm with scottl as he has also pointed out the difficultly of diagnosing PAH. It's often not looked for and it's the sub-clinical scenario, overtime, that results in the hypertrophy of the right ventricle. It's one of those case that when they finally have reason to look at what's going on with your cardiovascular system that they do a chest X-ray and ask "Shit what's going on here!". SHIT PICKLE!

Chipdouglas, I wouldn't exactly jump into thinking that Roger Mason is an honest guy simply because he sells supplements at a cheap price. Try and find his qualifications on the website. In fact try and follow his qualifications anywhere on the net. Has he just got an undergraduate degree in Science where he completed one unit of biochemistry? Did he do honors, masters of a Doctorate? I'm saying this because when you asked the question about NAC he didn't critique the paper instead he fed you with the typical alternative therapists sales pitch. Doctor's are Bad MMMoK. Drugs are Bad MMMok! Surgey is bad MMMok.

I, on the other hand, read the paper in question and 3 other review papers on S-nitrosothiols to get a better understanding of the situation. I take NAC and have 3 months supply in the cupboard. I am very skeptical when I hear claims that a supplement is bad because of one study in an animal model but in this situation I'm listening. Go back a page or so and re-read what I said and my conclusions from the study.

Apart from the fact that I have 3 months supply of NAC sitting in my cupboard I won't be losing anything at all by replacing the NAC with another effective cysteine donor.

If someone asked you whether you would like to live in house with an old style asbestos ceiling or a plaster ceiling with a smoke alarm and sprinkler what would you choose? They both keep the rain and stop fire out as good as one another except one could eventually end up killing you.

#65 scottl

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Posted 13 September 2007 - 02:52 AM

SHIT PICKLE!.


heh. You do have interesting expressions.

I won't be losing anything at all by replacing the NAC with another effective cysteine donor.
.


Zoo,

Ay truth to the old Pearson and Shaw (least I think it came from there) comment that one needs to take 3 times as much vit c as cysteine to prevent the cysteine from becoming...I think cystine?

#66 chipdouglas

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Posted 13 September 2007 - 02:55 AM

Wow that biochemist really has it in for doctors. Not all doctors eat garbage and the poisons he refers to are sometimes medications required to save a persons life. He also mentions butchering as well. Wow he really has a beef.

I don't think he has even read the study himself but in a very condescending manner keeps saying that you haven't. I guess he has lost his bet as well. BUZZER!

I'm with scottl as he has also pointed out the difficultly of diagnosing PAH. It's often not looked for and it's the sub-clinical scenario, overtime, that results in the hypertrophy of the right ventricle. It's one of those case that when they finally have reason to look at what's going on with your cardiovascular system that they do a chest X-ray and ask "Shit what's going on here!". SHIT PICKLE!

Chipdouglas, I wouldn't exactly jump into thinking that Roger Mason is an honest guy simply because he sells supplements at a cheap price. Try and find his qualifications on the website. In fact try and follow his qualifications anywhere on the net. Has he just got an undergraduate degree in Science where he completed one unit of biochemistry? Did he do honors, masters of a Doctorate? I'm saying this because when you asked the question about NAC he didn't critique the paper instead he fed you with the typical alternative therapists sales pitch. Doctor's are Bad MMMoK. Drugs are Bad MMMok! Surgey is bad MMMok.

I, on the other hand, read the paper in question and 3 other review papers on S-nitrosothiols to get a better understanding of the situation. I take NAC and have 3 months supply in the cupboard. I am very skeptical when I hear claims that a supplement is bad because of one study in an animal model but in this situation I'm listening. Go back a page or so and re-read what I said and my conclusions from the study.

Apart from the fact that I have 3 months supply of NAC sitting in my cupboard I won't be losing anything at all by replacing the NAC with another effective cysteine donor.

If someone asked you whether you would like to live in house with an old style asbestos ceiling or a plaster ceiling with a smoke alarm and sprinkler what would you choose? They both keep the rain and stop fire out as good as one another except one  could eventually end up killing you.




I try and be highly tolerant of others (at least most of the time--I seem to have inherited this from my father, or at least was raised this way), and despite seeing Mr. Mason being harsh, downright abnoxious and condescending many times in the past, I remained patient, but don't get me wrong, I was fully aware that something wasn't sitting right with him. I'm glad you read his comments, and I concur with the sales pitch tone his response transpired with. I don't know why he assumed that I hadn't read the paper......he jumped to a hasty conclusion for sure.


I'll go back and read your previous post.


On his qualification, he's told me and I have read somewhere that he's a biochemist, but honestly cannot back this up. Whatever his qualifications, he doesn't beat about the bush speaking his mind, which can be unpleasant to say the least or even uncalled for.


Zoo, what do you mean by honors or masters of a doctorate ? I understand honors are awarded distinctions, but masters of a doctorate, unless you meant completed a master's degree--perhaps it's what you meant.


Thanks

#67 zoolander

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Posted 13 September 2007 - 03:34 AM

scottl I am tempted to post the video where I got the term shit pickle from but those interested can look it up for themselves. There's no doubt I'm the rebel scientist that doesn't conform to the language or style of the academic world.

I'm not sure how they got the ratio of 3 times vitamin C to 1 NAC but there is a study that showed vitamin C supplementation minmises oxidation of glutathione. I'm a bit strapped for time at the moment scott but I'll try and get back to you later with the reference. Already missed 2 trains :(

#68 scottl

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Posted 13 September 2007 - 03:48 AM

scottl I am tempted to post the video where I got the term shit pickle from but those interested can look it up for themselves. There's no doubt I'm the rebel scientist that doesn't conform to the language or style of the academic world.

I'm not sure how they got the ratio of 3 times vitamin C to 1 NAC but there is a study that showed vitamin C supplementation minmises oxidation of glutathione. I'm a bit strapped for time at the moment scott but I'll try and get back to you later with the reference. Already missed 2 trains :(


They were talking about supplementing CYSTEINE not NAC. I believe NAC is not susceptable to oxidation and avoids the need for vit c.

#69 stayin_alive

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Posted 13 September 2007 - 04:20 AM

That's correct.

Cysteine can be oxidized.

#70 zoolander

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Posted 13 September 2007 - 07:33 AM

Ok then. The paper that I have read discusses NAC. It's true cysteine, as stayin_alive pointed out, can be oxidize fairly easy.

#71 wayside

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Posted 13 September 2007 - 01:38 PM

Zoo, what do you mean by honors or masters of a doctorate ?


Not to put words in Zoo's mouth, but I'm guessing it's a typo, he meant "honors or masters *OR* a doctorate".

#72 zoolander

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Posted 13 September 2007 - 02:21 PM

yep that's what I meant. My typo's are the cream of the crop

#73 chipdouglas

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Posted 13 September 2007 - 02:24 PM

LOL, no problem matey-this happens to me as well.

#74 trh001

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Posted 13 September 2007 - 02:25 PM

What do LD50 and ED50 mean ?


LD50 = dose sufficient to kill 50% of the exposed population under study
ED50 = dose that achieves pharmacological efficacy for 50% of the exposed population under study

The farther apart these two doses are, the safer the therapeutic agent is, at least wrt these two assessments.

#75 liorrh

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Posted 13 September 2007 - 03:41 PM

nothing moves people like fear.
and immortalists are one anxious gang to being with.

#76 s123

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Posted 13 September 2007 - 04:48 PM

Green tea is good against cancer and cardiovascular diseases but in high doses you can get liver damage.
Calcium is good against osteoporoses but stimulates cancer and aging.
A lot of supplements have benefits and downsides.

#77 inawe

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Posted 13 September 2007 - 05:12 PM

It came time for me to prepare/arrange supplements supply for 1 month. I'm debating what to do, to NAC or not to NAC, that is the question.
Years ago LEF listed 214 paper abstracts touting the benefits of NAC. NIH is listing 31 clinical trials using NAC. Some of them with up to 70 mg/Kg a day. But there is this 1 paper being discussed here. Why wasn't this problem noticed by anybody else? As trh001 pointed out, many times researchers don't find something when they are not looking for it. Also, as the paper referred by scottl (among others)demonstrate, PH takes time to develop and early symptoms are hard to recognize.
I have been taking whey, is it a good substitute? What's the best non-dangerous vehicle for cysteine? What's at the ceiling of the cysteine chapel?

#78 luv2increase

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Posted 13 September 2007 - 05:31 PM

Calcium is good against osteoporoses but stimulates cancer and aging.



Really? Can you point me to some studies please to back up this statement? Hell, maybe this is a generally known fact around here that I've yet to come across? BTW, I'm talking about the cancer and aging thing.

#79 dannov

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Posted 13 September 2007 - 05:59 PM

I read this post, and then shortly after finally received my shipment of NAC. I immediately popped a pill with my dinner meal, 600mg. I'm not afraid of one study on mice.

#80 s123

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Posted 13 September 2007 - 06:03 PM

http://www.imminst.o...m,and,cancer&s=

#81 luv2increase

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Posted 13 September 2007 - 06:32 PM

http://www.imminst.o...m,and,cancer&s=


Thanks for posting that, but I'm not convinced that calcium and magnesium are bad for you in the least.

#82 tbathgate

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 11:07 AM

Hi all,

I've just bought NAC 700mg suppliments and received this morning. Bit worried about taking them now after reading this.

But can anyone tell me, do your capsules have a disgusting smell to them, like rotten eggs? Is it something to do with the ingredients or have i got a bad batch?

#83 ajnast4r

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 11:36 AM

NAC is a sulfur containing amino acid, and smells like crap

#84 tbathgate

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 12:27 PM

Oh thats ok, I thought it might be a bad batch or something. I take it doesn't taste like crap.

I thought it would be the sulfur, just never open tablets like that before and had such a nasty shock!!

#85 dannov

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 01:53 PM

Glad to know it's not only my NAC that smells like crap. :)

#86 health_nutty

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 04:22 PM

You all realize that the full dose of ortho-core has 200mg of NAC right? I think 100mg I get in a half dose is fine personally.

#87 doug123

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Posted 17 September 2007 - 07:34 PM

Dear glexia,

Thank you very much for sharing this story with us.  My advise to you would be to make a list of all of the supplements/drugs you may take, and write them down.  Then write down your diet and exercise program, and bring these into a doctor that is aware of your medical history as well.

I recall before these studies came out:

o Antioxidant Supplementation Increases the Risk of Skin Cancers in Women but Not in Men

o JAMA: Vitamin E, A, beta-caro increases mortality

o Archives of Internal Medicine: Vitamins C and E and Beta Carotene: No benefit, in the Secondary Prevention of Cardiovascular Events in Women

A lot of folks seemed to believe that there was some guaranteed benefit from multivitamins and other misc. antioxidants (NAC is an antioxidant).

Not to mention, if you check out Testing finds lead in vitamins, other problems, it seems about fifty percent (or 1/2) of multivitamins may be contaminated with lead or it appears may otherwise be unable to match their label claims. 

So it's important to keep up to date on all of the latest research findings and to watch out for sales "hype" -- and most importantly, you should work with a licensed health care professional that is aware of your entire medical history before changing anything in your diet or exercise program.


I guess since no one seems to have provided us with the study abstract or its background information, I guess I will. :)

Here's some general background information regarding The Journal of Clinical Investigation, copied from Wikipedia September 17, 2007; which seems to be accurate:

The Journal of Clinical Investigation (JCI or J Clin Invest) is a leading biomedical journal, which is radically different from many of its peers in having a high impact factor (in 2005, 15.053) and offering all its contents entirely free. It is also one of those rare journals whose entire archives, from 1924, are available online.

The website of the journal describes it as "a premier venue for critical advances in biomedical research, authoritative reviews, and commentaries that place research articles in context." The first issue of the journal appeared in 1924, and within a few decades, it had established itself as a reputed journal for primary clinical research.

The JCI's Editorial Board is unique in that its members are located chiefly at a singular academic medical center and are predominantly members of the American Society for Clinical Investigation. The leadership of the Editorial Board changes every five years: As of March 2007, the Editorial Board is located at the University of Pennsylvania under the leadership of Laurence A. Turka, M.D. From March 2002 to March 2007, the Editorial Board was located at Columbia University under the leadership of Andrew Marks, M.D. Ushma S. Neill, formerly with Nature Medicine, is the journal's Executive Editor.

This monthly journal publishes much original research, and one review article per issue, often ranked in par with the sophisticated and widely-cited reviews found in Physiological Reviews. A series of review articles (under the term "Review Series") focussing on an important biomedical topic is also regularly published, which has proved to be a positive addition to the journal's reputation.


Here is the study abstract that is referenced in the news report that glexia posted for us:

Posted Image

J. Clin. Invest. 117:2592-2601 (2007). doi:10.1172/JCI29444.
Copyright ©2007 by the American Society for Clinical Investigation

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Research Article

S-Nitrosothiols signal hypoxia-mimetic vascular pathology

Lisa A. Palmer1, Allan Doctor1, Preeti Chhabra1, Mary Lynn Sheram1, Victor E. Laubach2, Molly Z. Karlinsey3, Michael S. Forbes1, Timothy Macdonald3 and Benjamin Gaston1
1Department of Pediatrics and 2Department of Surgery, University of Virginia School of Medicine, and 3Department of Chemistry, University of Virginia, Charlottesville, Virginia, USA.


Address correspondence to: Benjamin Gaston, Pediatric Respiratory Medicine University of Virginia Health System, Box 800386, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908, USA. Phone: (434) 924-1820; Fax: (434) 924-8388; E-mail: bmg3g@virginia.edu.

Received for publication June 20, 2006, and accepted in revised form May 24, 2007.

NO transfer reactions between protein and peptide cysteines have been proposed to represent regulated signaling processes. We used the pharmaceutical antioxidant N-acetylcysteine (NAC) as a bait reactant to measure NO transfer reactions in blood and to study the vascular effects of these reactions in vivo. NAC was converted to S-nitroso-N-acetylcysteine (SNOAC), decreasing erythrocytic S-nitrosothiol content, both during whole-blood deoxygenation ex vivo and during a 3-week protocol in which mice received high-dose NAC in vivo. Strikingly, the NAC-treated mice developed pulmonary arterial hypertension (PAH) that mimicked the effects of chronic hypoxia. Moreover, systemic SNOAC administration recapitulated effects of both NAC and hypoxia. eNOS-deficient mice were protected from the effects of NAC but not SNOAC, suggesting that conversion of NAC to SNOAC was necessary for the development of PAH. These data reveal an unanticipated adverse effect of chronic NAC administration and introduce a new animal model of PAH. Moreover, evidence that conversion of NAC to SNOAC during blood deoxygenation is necessary for the development of PAH in this model challenges conventional views of oxygen sensing and of NO signaling.

Copyright © 2007 by the American Society for Clinical Investigation.


The issue of interest that seems to have prompted concern that might bring into question the issue of safety seems to be that: "the NAC-treated mice developed pulmonary arterial hypertension (PAH) that mimicked the effects of chronic hypoxia." So it may seem clear if these effects manifest in humans taking NAC as a supplement, humans may manifest pulmonary arterial hypertension (PAH).

Here's a definition of Pulmonary Arterial Hypertension from The National Heart Lung and Blood Institute (last updated August 2006):

Posted ImagePosted Image
What Is Pulmonary Arterial Hypertension?
Pulmonary (PULL-mun-ary) arterial hypertension (PAH) is continuous high blood pressure in the pulmonary artery. The average blood pressure in a normal pulmonary artery is about 14 mmHg when the person is resting. In PAH, the average is usually greater than 25 mmHg.

PAH is a serious condition for which there are treatments but no cure. Treatment benefits many patients.

The pulmonary arteries are the blood vessels that carry oxygen-poor blood from the right ventricle (VEN-trih-kul) in the heart to the small arteries in the lungs. In PAH, three types of changes may occur in the pulmonary arteries:

o The muscles within the walls of the arteries may tighten up. This makes the inside of the arteries narrower.
o The walls of the pulmonary arteries may thicken as the amount of muscle increases in some arteries. Scar tissue may form in the walls of arteries. As the walls thicken and scar, the arteries become increasingly narrow.
o Tiny blood clots may form within the smaller arteries, causing blockages.
o There is less room for the blood to flow through these narrower arteries. The arteries may also stiffen. Over time, some of the arteries may become completely blocked.

The narrowing of the pulmonary arteries causes the right side of heart to work harder to pump blood through the lungs. Over time, the heart muscle weakens and loses its ability to pump enough blood for the body's needs. This is called right heart failure. Heart failure is the most common cause of death in people with PAH.

There are two types of PAH:

o Primary pulmonary arterial hypertension (PPAH) is inherited or occurs for no known reason.
o Secondary pulmonary arterial hypertension (SPAH) either is caused by or occurs because of another condition. The conditions include chronic heart or lung disease, blood clots in the lungs, or a disease like scleroderma (skler-o-DER-ma).
About 300 new cases of PPAH are diagnosed in the United States each year. SPAH is much more common.

Doctors have learned a lot about PAH in recent years. More treatments are now available. Researchers are also studying several promising new treatments that may prolong lives as well as improve the quality of life for people living with PAH.

August 2006


It seems results from animal studies will translate to humans approximately half the time, so does this imply everyone that has been taking NAC should stop taking it? What if the only basis for using a therapy is based on animal research (which is not the case for NAC)?

Regardless, that's not the reason I am posting here today.

I am reporting on a study instead originally published in the journal Cancer Cell September 11, 2007:

Info on this journal:

Cancer Cell publishes reports of novel results in any area of cancer research, from molecular and cellular biology to clinical oncology. The work should be not only of exceptional significance within its field but also of interest to researchers outside the immediate area. In addition, Cancer Cell findings in cancer research, diagnosis and treatment. The goal of Cancer Cell is to promote the exchange of ideas and concepts across the entire cancer community, cultivating new areas of basic research and clinical investigation.

Cancer Cell will consider papers for publication in any aspect of cancer biology and clinical research, including (but not limited to): Genetics, epigenetics, genomic instability • Cell signaling and communication • Cell cycle, DNA repair • Diagnostics (molecular profiling, pharmacogenomics) • Telomerase and transformation • Apoptosis • Angiogenesis, metastasis • Animal models • Cancer therapy (rational drug design, small molecule therapeutics) • Epidemiology and prevention.


The abstract of potential interest:

Posted Image

Copyright © 2007 Cell Press. All rights reserved.
Cancer Cell, Vol 12, 230-238, 11 September 2007

Article
HIF-Dependent Antitumorigenic Effect of Antioxidants In Vivo

Ping Gao,1 Huafeng Zhang,2,6 Ramani Dinavahi,1 Feng Li,1 Yan Xiang,1 Venu Raman,4,5 Zaver M. Bhujwalla,4,5 Dean W. Felsher,8 Linzhao Cheng,6 Jonathan Pevsner,3 Linda A. Lee,1 Gregg L. Semenza,1,2,4,6,7 and Chi V. Dang1,4,7,


1 Department of Medicine, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, MD 21205, USA
2 Department of Pediatrics, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, MD 21205, USA
3 Department of Neurology, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, MD 21205, USA
4 Department of Oncology, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, MD 21205, USA
5 Department of Radiology, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, MD 21205, USA
6 Institute for Cell Engineering, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, MD 21205, USA
7 McKusick-Nathans Institute of Genetic Medicine, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, MD 21205, USA
8 Departments of Medicine and Pathology, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, CA 94305, USA

Corresponding author
Chi V. Dang
cvdang@jhmi.edu

Summary

The antitumorigenic activity of antioxidants has been presumed to arise from their ability to squelch DNA damage and genomic instability mediated by reactive oxygen species (ROS). Here, we report that antioxidants inhibited three tumorigenic models in vivo. Inhibition of a MYC-dependent human B lymphoma model was unassociated with genomic instability but was linked to diminished hypoxia-inducible factor (HIF)-1 levels in a prolyl hydroxylase 2 and von Hippel-Lindau protein-dependent manner. Ectopic expression of an oxygen-independent, stabilized HIF-1 mutant rescued lymphoma xenografts from inhibition by two antioxidants: N-acetylcysteine and vitamin C. These findings challenge the paradigm that antioxidants diminish tumorigenesis primarily through decreasing DNA damage and mutations and provide significant support for a key antitumorigenic effect of diminishing HIF levels.

Copyright 2007 Elsevier Inc.


So while subjects that may report taking NAC as a supplement may be at increased risk for PAH, alternatively they may be at reduced risk of cancer -- or so this in-vivo evidence might suggest.

Thoughts, comments, or suggestions?

Take care.

#88 krillin

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Posted 17 September 2007 - 08:35 PM

So while subjects that may report taking NAC as a supplement may be at increased risk for PAH, alternatively they may be at reduced risk of cancer -- or so this in-vivo evidence might suggest.

Thoughts, comments, or suggestions?


I posted that abstract two pages ago, as part of my propaganda campaign to convince myself that vitamin C has been protecting me from NAC's effects all these years. My NAC is currently in storage, kept on hand in case a terrorist forces me to down an entire bottle of Tylenol.

#89 luv2increase

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Posted 17 September 2007 - 11:39 PM

Wouldn't you think that someone who supplements with NAC would have come down with PAH by now or even had complications or signs of the beginning stages of PAH?

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#90 dannov

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 01:44 PM

I'd think that, either that or the mice were seriously overdosed. Krillin--you've been taking it for years...have you seen a doctor to see if you may have any potential signs of PAH? That should be a long enough time to get *something* if there is anything to get.




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