280 replies to this topic

[senseix]

Thanks rabagley, luckly i have a nice scale that has a 0.1 gram accuracy:)

[rabagley]

Okay, so I got my Diamond V XPC Green (organic) last night. I mixed a heaping teaspoonful into about 3oz plain yogurt. I waited a few minutes, thinking that the result may be smoother if the liquid had some time to soak into the dry powder.

The result tastes like liquid bread. Not awful, but not particularly tasty either.

My only symptom is a subjectively measured clearer nose this morning. I am allergic to a few pollens in Southern California and am also allergic to cats (we have two), so most mornings start with a good clearing of the nose. Not this morning. Unlike browser, I don't have a lush beard coming in. Yet

[steelheader]

I've ordered 5 pounds of the organic product. Browser believes the stuff is food and can be used freely. Others believe a proper dose would be in the gram range. What are the convincing arguments concerning dosage?

[rabagley]

Browser and I are experimenting with our bodies. Browser argues that epicor is trying to maximize profit by selling a minimum dose that has some positive effect. We're both speculating that some quantity over epicor's recommendation will have a non-linear increase in benefit.

It's pretty much non-toxic according to Epicor's toxicology study. It seems that you would end up with an intestinal blockage from trying to pack it in before any negative reactions appear.

At this point, given the toxicity information, do what you like. Any decision you make on dosage is almost certainly not going to hurt you. Dairy cattle live longer and healthier lives when fed this stuff at much greater dosages than 250mg/kg/day (that's one heaping tablespoon/day for me).

[browser]

I've ordered 5 pounds of the organic product.  Browser believes the stuff is food and can be used freely. Others believe a proper dose would be in the gram range.  What are the convincing arguments concerning dosage?

If you read Diamond's website, the dosage of V XPC for calves ranges from 3.5 g - 7 g per day. I suspect that's a minimum, not optimum dose, as farmers would want to spend as little as possible, just like any other businessman. And yes, it is feed that's been provided to animals for many years, generally regarded as safe. Epicor was fed in very high doses and did not exhibit toxicity.

[niner]

I've been taking Epicor for about a month. At the moment, everyone in my family except me has a cold. That's an anecdote, so take it for what it's worth. If I make it through fall and winter without getting sick, it would probably be the first time in my life that's ever happened, so at that point I'd be very pro-Epicor. At the moment, the jury's still out, as far as I'm concerned, but things are looking good so far. I don't think it makes sense that the Epicor folks are trying to make more money by giving consumers the minimum dose with any effect. The substance is not that expensive. The toxicity is too low for them to be minimizing the dose for safety reasons.

[rabagley]

My only symptom is a subjectively measured clearer nose this morning. I am allergic to a few pollens in Southern California and am also allergic to cats (we have two), so most mornings start with a good clearing of the nose. Not this morning.

Sadly, it looks as though I still have my allergies (wasn't actually expecting anything to happen in less than 12 hours, but...). Yesterday may have just been a low pollen day. The real test will come in April, when my allergies normally go crazy. By then I'll have five months of taking this stuff and I'll expect something to have changed.

[steelheader]

I've ordered 5 pounds of the organic product.  Browser believes the stuff is food and can be used freely. Others believe a proper dose would be in the gram range.  What are the convincing arguments concerning dosage?

If you read Diamond's website, the dosage of V XPC for calves ranges from 3.5 g - 7 g per day. I suspect that's a minimum, not optimum dose, as farmers would want to spend as little as possible, just like any other businessman. And yes, it is feed that's been provided to animals for many years, generally regarded as safe. Epicor was fed in very high doses and did not exhibit toxicity.

Browser, do think it's a reasonable assumption that there is not a U-curve for dosage effectiveness? That more might not actually be less effective than less?

[browser]

I've ordered 5 pounds of the organic product.  Browser believes the stuff is food and can be used freely. Others believe a proper dose would be in the gram range.  What are the convincing arguments concerning dosage?

If you read Diamond's website, the dosage of V XPC for calves ranges from 3.5 g - 7 g per day. I suspect that's a minimum, not optimum dose, as farmers would want to spend as little as possible, just like any other businessman. And yes, it is feed that's been provided to animals for many years, generally regarded as safe. Epicor was fed in very high doses and did not exhibit toxicity.

Browser, do think it's a reasonable assumption that there is not a U-curve for dosage effectiveness? That more might not actually be less effective than less?

I don't know and I don't care. I am currently taking it for its antibiotic, anti-fungal, antiviral effects. I've achieved enough (my PSA is almost within normal range, the first time since it was first tested 10 years ago because of my complaints to my physician). I am now down to a heaping teaspoon once a day and will eventually back off to 1/4 teaspoon a day.

I doubt if the immune system enhancement follow a U-curve. I'd be more willing to bet that above a certain level, there is no change more change in the balance of the immune system but the direct effect on little buggers is probably proportionate. LDN has to be taken within a very strict range between 9 PM and ?2? AM, as it plays on the interaction of endorphins and the immune system. I doubt this stuff plays like that. But of course we don't have the research on why this stuff balances the immune system so I'm just going on conjecture.

People who sell the stuff say that 5 pounds contains some many of this doses of different amounts. So there seems to be a popular consensus (unfounded?) that it's not a U-curve.

[homegrown]

Sweetness. I bought a 50lb bag of Diamond V XPC for $30 at a feed mill after looking for the stuff for over 2 weeks. Had to drive 50 miles one way to pick it up. Been using the stuff freely for two days now. Tastes like blackstrap molasses. So far so good, except for all the fiber. No ill effects as of yet.

[browser]

I'm in Austin, TX. Called up the manager of the local feed store. Was told that the distributer would only sell him a ton of the stuff. I said that's 40 bags, put me in for one. He said he's taking names and will probably just buy 50 pound bags and sell the stuff for $2 a pound. He says the $30/50 pounds was something he'd love to get quoted, but believes perhaps another distributer is selling the stuff in high quantities, as he won't be able to get it that cheap. Despite the fact that Austin, TX doesn't have a real health food/supplement store (we have botique places like Whole Foods and GNC), there are enough people interested in this stuff that'll it'll probably come to town. Heck. 1/2 million people, good disposable incomes (homes are cheap here, relatively, compared to wages), low heating bills (it's 82 F out right now), little effect of the real estate bust because of the steadily ramping up economy, there's got to be enough interest for someone to offer this stuff locally.

The feed store manager mentioned that there was also an organic "green" version of the stuff. I asked him what the likelihood would be of a manufacturer having two plants, one for regular, another for organic (organic food is not that popular in the US, Whole Foods not withstanding). He agreed that it's probably all green only when they make and package the green version they follow special inspections and procedures to satisfy the certified organic requirements.

Whether or not this feed store guy is able to get Diamond V XPC is probably moot. As more people become interested, eBay and other places will become so full of suppliers that the price will drop dramatically. I remember when Gmail invitations were $50+. I bought one at $3, another a $4. Dozens of people were dumping the invites on eBay and even giving them away on blogs.

[homegrown]

I live in Idaho. There's a ton of feed stores in the area, but none of them carry the XPC. A local feed mill did sell the stuff and quoted $75/50lbs. About a week after calling them, I drove over to buy a bag and all of a sudden they're not selling it anymore. After calling around, I finally find a mill that ordered some and it would come in about 2 weeks. 2 weeks later, I give them another call and they quote $30/50lbs. The guy said he had a hell of a time finding a supplier. I think it's mostly the feed mills that carry the stuff.

One place I called, the woman got all offended and demanded to know where I got their number. Needless to say, I got nowhere with them. I know someone who couldn't find it anywhere in the Seattle, WA area. Very hard to find.

[browser]

Well, this guy I talked to had already decided /that/ he's going to sell it. I suspect he might gather up a dozen names, buy a ton, sell as many 50 pound bags as he can and sell the rest at a higher price by the pound. Free enterprise at the small businessman's level. It's wonderful. Strike that. I suspect free enterprise only exists at the small business level in the US. I don't know about Idaho but I suspect in
Texas and especially Austin we have the best government money can buy. But that's off topic.

[senseix]

Update, i ordered the 5lb Organic stuff, i think from the same guy you did browser, either way, looking forward to receiving it next week. It was 2 dollars more than the none organic but i figured this stuff should last a year and so the price difference isn't an issue.

[steelheader]

Any of the humans taking the stuff notice a difference yet? I don't but it might be getting lost in the mob of other supplements. My 11 year old Lab loves a quarter teaspoon on her dried kibbles twice a day and has gotten noticably more lively(more alert, more affectionate) since getting it.

[tintinet]

I just got my organic version a couple of days ago and started out slowly (1 tsp. twice a day). Noticed decreased appetite, nasal clearing, deep sleep.

Of course, all of the above may be incidental. Will continue to monitor.

I like the bread-like yeast smell and taste, BTW.

[browser]

Update, i ordered the 5lb Organic stuff, i think from the same guy you did browser, either way, looking forward to receiving it next week. It was 2 dollars more than the none organic but i figured this stuff should last a year and so the price difference isn't an issue.

I figured there was a reason more sellers were being added at eBay, but mostly concentrated in Ft. Collins. I did a search. I remember driving by this plant some years ago. Feed plant in Ft. Collins I'm already seeing prices floating slowly downward on eBaby, which is what you'd expect when more people get into the action. I've seen it happen before on other offerings. This is good, because it appears people were marking this stuff up by 1000%.

[senseix]

browser, i was looking at epicor prices which are so much higher, that spending $28.99 or so for the organic 5lb i was more than happy to do lol. By next year when i run out, like you were suggesting the price might be half or even less so that will be sweet. Still i'm happy to spend what i did when comparing to epicor, i found some places were selling a bottle of 30 pills for $30.00+... The cheapest epicor i found was $13.99 without shipping, for 30 pills ouch hehe.

[senseix]

Mine has just arrived, i plan on taking 2g per day and see how that goes. The taste is fine, tho i do mix it with crystal light, and i'm also mixing in chorella, Spirulina and Buffered Vitamin C Powder.

[maxwatt]

I doubt this is any more beneficial than good-old-fachioned brewer's yeast.

[Mind]

I second maxwatt's question. This is apparently a "fermented yeast product". What does that exactly mean? I know the exact composition and production is a trade secret, but someone must at least have a guess.

Also, when the nutritional content includes "ash", what's that?

Also, it has .03 g/100g of iron. Is that high? If you guys/gals are taking a heaping teaspoon, how much of your RDA of iron are you getting?

[nameless]

  I doubt this is any more beneficial than good-old-fachioned brewer's yeast.

If I remember correctly, Epicor is brewer's yeast (as stated in Embria's product brochure). So yeah, I'm not sure why it would have any benefits one couldn't find in a different brewer's yeast product. Or with beta glucans... or medicinal mushrooms. Only way to tell is via real head to head studies, and I doubt that'll ever happen.

Perhaps they ferment it differently than other yeast products, or add other nutritional ingredients (ash not being one of them)?

As it is right now, most benefits seem to be purely subjective.

[browser]

I second maxwatt's question. This is apparently a "fermented yeast product". What does that exactly mean? I know the exact composition and production is a trade secret, but someone must at least have a guess.

Also, when the nutritional content includes "ash", what's that?

Also, it has .03 g/100g of iron. Is that high? If you guys/gals are taking a heaping teaspoon, how much of your RDA of iron are you getting?

Of course that's a high amount of iron. This stuff has the consistency of chopped peanut shells or coarse saw dust. I'm frankly not sure how available the iron is. The "ash" might account for the very salty taste of the stuff. Definitely this is not just yeast. I taste a hint of molasses, grains and that dang saltiness. I suspect that "fermented yeast product" is a misnomer. I think grain has been cracked, mixed with some molasses, yeast and allowed to ferment. The stuff that's left over after the fermentation is dried down. I assume since I don't appear to have genetic defects that accumulate iron that it washes out of my system. Remember, rats were fed this stuff in very high doses (but only for 31 days) with no toxic effects. You've got some valid points, but just as I can't convince others that resveratrol is probably only good for its COX inhibition in humans, I'm not going to be easily convinced to stop taking this stuff.

[browser]

Any of the humans taking the stuff notice a difference yet?  I don't but it might be getting lost in the mob of other supplements.  My 11 year old Lab loves a quarter teaspoon on her dried kibbles twice a day and has gotten noticably more lively(more alert, more affectionate) since getting it.

I've been called a dirty rat before but I pass as human <G>. Chronic prostate with high PSI disappeared almost overnight. Acne from some unknown source cleared up. Dentist suggested a root canal before I started taking the stuff. He's changed his mind.

[quarter]

I have noticed an increase in vitality since adding half a teaspoon twice a day. I seem to be recovering from training better and my airways appear to be clearer. Despite my current period of hard training (over-training can acutely lower the immune system), the onset of winter here in the north of Ireland, and most people I know coming down with a cold, I have remained in good health (touch wood) thus far. Admittedly these benefits are rather ambiguous and subjective.

I had previously been taking bio-strath which is a brewer's yeast type product and hadn't noticed these benefits.

Edited by quarter, 21 November 2007 - 03:31 PM.

[senseix]

Little update, probably been too soon to say "i'm not getting a cold cuz of it but" i have noticed, i sleep ALOT deeper, geesh i dream nightly and remember them, something i hardly did in the past. So sleep seems to be much deeper, digestion seems to be much more solid too now. Other than that haven't noticed anything else as of yet.

Edited by senseix, 26 November 2007 - 06:55 AM.

[stephen_b]

sleep ALOT deeper, geesh i dream nightly and remember them, something i hardly did in the past.

Another anecdotal "me too" on the vivid dreams (taking Epicore here). I experienced them all weekend even though I did not bring any melatonin with me over the weekend holiday.

Stephen

[tomnook]

Just received my package of the original Diamond V XPC from an ebay seller - I'm intending to give it my dog .... and maybe try it myself too.

The dosage for a dog according to the info .pdf posted by the manufacturer is .125% of bodyweight per day (I'm assuming that the .125% = bodyweight .... it generally does) - my dog weighs 50kg (100lbs) so that equates to 6.25gm per day - appx. a heaped teaspoon. The info also states that double this amount should be used during "times of stress".
From these feeding rates a 70kg (150lb human would require 8.75gm - i.e almost two level teaspoons ... unless "stressed" when the rate would be double!)

Here is a link to the relevant .pdf of info and full analysis

http://www.diamondv....le_XPC_6-06.pdf


Dave

[senseix]

I did up my intake few days back to 6grams per day, i actually like the stuff on chicken and other foods, tho mainly i drink it with juice and some other powders, mostly greens ect. I love that i dream and sleep like i wish i had for the past 10 years, i can't get over that, i hope it continues LOL

[quarter]

I'm also sleeping deeper. But I recently added magnesium orotate as well, to which I am giving most of the credit for the deeper sleep, based entirely on gut feeling.