53 replies to this topic

[rsnuk]

Humans are not animals you nihlist, we are spiritual creatures, we have souls, don't pretence to tell me that i am an animal, ultimately the existance of the soul cannot be proved true or false, but there is evidence of the soul.

For example:

People who die and then when they awake they cna describe every that's happened to their body while they were unconscious and say that they could see everything as if they were hovering over the body.

I've got more for this thread as i feel it's interesting, but i'm busy now, just wanted to say my bit.

[rabagley]

Humans are not animals you nihlist, we are spiritual creatures, we have souls, don't pretence to tell me that i am an animal, ultimately the existance of the soul cannot be proved true or false, but there is evidence of the soul.

Sigh. This is a load of wishful thinking. The mind is completely embodied. The brain is a group of interrelated electrochemical computers that work to make us more adaptable than any other animal on the planet. Most of this forum is about taking chemical substances that directly affect mental functioning in very measurable and sometimes quantifiable ways. I know that you've been told you're special and different, but in fact, humans are animals, distant cousin to the chimpanzee and ape, even more distant cousin to every other living thing on the planet. We're different, but not that different.

Does this exclude spirituality? Hardly. But the mind is a function of the body. A rather amazing and wonderful function, but a function even so.

People who die and then when they awake they cna describe every that's happened to their body while they were unconscious and say that they could see everything as if they were hovering over the body.

No, they can't and no, they haven't. You read something somewhere that you didn't bother to verify and that person was equally misinformed or lying. People can often hear and otherwise perceive what's going on around them even when they and others think they're unconscious. Sorry, but that's not evidence of some disembodied soul. That's evidence that perception and memory formation don't require the executive. An interesting observation, to be sure. Just not evidence for the soul.

What didn't happen was that those people didn't describe what was on top of cabinets or equipment in the room (things they wouldn't be able to observe from their location on the table). They don't do that because they never left the table. They thought they did. They remember floating above themselves. But they didn't actually go anywhere. Their imagination provided imagery to match wishful thinking or as an explanation for the injuries and treatments (anesthetic) they received. Again, cool stuff, but no disembodied soul needed.

I've got more for this thread as i feel it's interesting, but i'm busy now, just wanted to say my bit.

More? You've got more? You'll need different. More of the same stuff you've just said isn't correct or even very interesting.

Now. Please. Stay on topic.

Topic: cooked food == conspiracy by drug companies (or something like that: I need to go back to the first post again)

[rsnuk]

In your opinion wishful thinking, but that's just your subjective interpretation, it would not be wishful thinking if it was the truth would it?

Can you disprove the existance of the soul, no.

How about a proposal that just as the body and mind work synergistically, the mind and soul work synergistically, all three are syngergistic, it doesn't disclude all that's known about the mind and body.

You think consciousness can be explained by biochemical reactions, neurotransmissions, the intereaction of the many systems and structures of the brain purely, i call B.S on that, the problem i have with evolution is

1. it promotes the idea that the only meaning to our existance is reproduction, as freud drew from studying the mind "everything has something to do with sex", makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint, reproduction would be the most essential goal towards survival of a species, so psychologically it should evolve as the most important psycholgical comulsion, influencing all psychologies within the mind, seemingly operating from that format. Carl Jung would disagree and he did believe in the soul.

2. it basically serves to promote nihilistic thought, which is basically what i was saying in number 1, nihilism is flawed in that, it focuses on the fact that no higher meaning can be proven, when it shoudl acknowledge no higher meaning cna be disproven either. for all we know, chritians are right and all these things we've learned that make the bible seem an unlikely explination really were lies created by the devils influence.

3. What are the odds?

4. The height of stupidity is when the uneducated man forms opinions in regards to something he knows nothing off, this will be the downfall of society - Albert Einstein.

He was talking about intellectual arrogance.

I stay objective, i say maybe i'm wrong because i recognise, truth is subjective.

Man can never know anythin for sure, yet we accept so many things because other arrogant intellectuals say this is definitely the truth.

Unless we stop this, we will sink further and fruther into Nihilism and Einstein will be correct.

Here is my opinion, to which i only assign a higher subjective probability of being correct than yours, hence i claim it is my believe, but i recognise, i may be wrong:

I don't believe life randomly evolved, i believe it evolved as did the universe intelligently, i think the nihilistic attitude sucks and it's why our race is so far gone down a wrong path of intellectual arrogance, nihilism, egotism and capitalism and everything else, it's closed minded and arrogant, i simply deem people who deny the possibility as inferior and move on, so if you want to deny the possibility, know i've deemed you inferior and would not waste my time replying.

Just my opinion, there's no way you can disprove my opinion, your belief is equally as valid as mine, if you feel like to keep on expressing how you have no belief in a higher meaning to existance beyond, we are born we die, so lets have some fun in the mean time, making sure we **** each other stupid on the way out.


Most of your post is a just arrogance and i think i've made my point, so i shall not address your point individually.

Check out the Monroe Insititute, Professor Monroe studied OBE(Outer Body Experiences) for most his life and seemed fairly convinced by it.

again maybe B.S, but truth is subjective so peace.

[Athan]

Humans are not animals you nihlist, we are spiritual creatures, we have souls, don't pretence to tell me that i am an animal, ultimately the existance of the soul cannot be proved true or false, but there is evidence of the soul.

For example:

People who die and then when they awake they cna describe every that's happened to their body while they were unconscious and say that they could see everything as if they were hovering over the body.

http://www.imminst.o...&f=3&t=12539&s=

Can you disprove the existance of the soul, no.

Nor can you prove it. You claim there is something, so the burden of scientific proof is on you.

1. it promotes the idea that the only meaning to our existance is reproduction, as freud drew from studying the mind "everything has something to do with sex", makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint, reproduction would be the most essential goal towards survival of a species, so psychologically it should evolve as the most important psycholgical comulsion, influencing all psychologies within the mind, seemingly operating from that format. Carl Jung would disagree and he did believe in the soul.

So because Carl Jung believes in a soul he is correct? That is logically fallacious.

2. it basically serves to promote nihilistic thought, which is basically what i was saying in number 1, nihilism is flawed in that, it focuses on the fact that no higher meaning can be proven, when it shoudl acknowledge no higher meaning cna be disproven either. for all we know, chritians are right and all these things we've learned that make the bible seem an unlikely explination really were lies created by the devils influence.

There is no point to this paragraph.

3. What are the odds?

The Anthropic Principle.

4. The height of stupidity is when the uneducated man forms opinions in regards to something he knows nothing off, this will be the downfall of society - Albert Einstein.

I think you just trumped yourself with Einstein's quote.

I stay objective, i say maybe i'm wrong because i recognise, truth is subjective.

I politely object to your being objective. Your argument is highly emotional and nonsensical. Truth is subjective to the human brain many times, but from a scientific point of view it is entirely objective.

I don't believe life randomly evolved, i believe it evolved as did the universe intelligently, i think the nihilistic attitude sucks

Half a point for the effort.

Most of your post is a just arrogance and i think i've made my point, so i shall not address your point individually.

Check out the Monroe Insititute, Professor Monroe studied OBE(Outer Body Experiences) for most his life and seemed fairly convinced by it.

again maybe B.S, but truth is subjective so peace.

Most of your post is horrible logic backed up by faulty evidence and highly subjective, highly emotional arguments that have no purpose. You're just as arrogant as we are, we're simply intelligent enough to realize it.

One professor can prove nothing on his own; others must test his hypotheses and prove him correct for him to have any power whatsoever.

[Shannon Vyff]

vote: YES

[rabagley]

Your entire post is an example of "shifting the burden of proof" or a specific form of "Argumentum ad Ignorantiam" http://www.infidels....c.html#shifting It's your extraordinary claim. You're going to have to provide equally extraordinary evidence. Why should I bother to disprove when you have failed to substantiate? I say that the flying spagetti monster exists and there's no way to prove or disprove it. Your statement is in the same category. Without some evidence, you just look like a kook.

I don't believe life randomly evolved, i believe it evolved as did the universe intelligently, i think the nihilistic attitude sucks and it's why our race is so far gone down a wrong path of intellectual arrogance

Hey! I think nihilism sucks too!

You're mixing up your definitions pretty badly. Nihilism generally means that existence is pointless. I don't agree with that. You seem to have grouped philosophies into two categories: your religion and nihilism. Here's a big hint: there are more choices than those two and almost all of the planets 6b+ people are not living either one of those two.

Nihilists say that it is impossible to determine if one action is better than any other and claim that amorality is the only moral code. Nonsense. Ethics and morality are much more significant and important once the baggage of religious morality (based on myth and human power struggles) is stripped away.

When thinking of morality and meaning, there are two thresholds:

Is it possible to define a local and useful moral code?
Is it possible to define an absolute objective moral code?

The first is absolutely achievable, the second isn't desirable and no, I don't think it's achievable. If you'd like to get into a discussion about secular ethics and exactly why I think they're so much better than religious ethics, by all means.

[Pointdexter]

the problem i have with evolution is

1. it promotes the idea that the only meaning to our existance is reproduction

You're right. It can't be true. The idea isn't desirable and desire is a Multiverse Operator.

3. What are the odds?

Quantifiable.

Here is my opinion, to which i only assign a higher subjective probability

And I'm highly certain that your subjective probability formed in the presence of confirmation bias and false cause and effect.

[tamalak]

Humans are not animals you nihlist, we are spiritual creatures, we have souls, don't pretence to tell me that i am an animal, ultimately the existance of the soul cannot be proved true or false, but there is evidence of the soul.

For example:

People who die and then when they awake they cna describe every that's happened to their body while they were unconscious and say that they could see everything as if they were hovering over the body.

Wait wait wait. Are you telling me other animals don't have such a sensation when they experience near-death?

Could I have a link to the study on this?

[Athanasios]

vote:  YES

You are so argumentative. [lol]

Vote: Yes

[Live Forever]

Of course humans are animals. Just because our brains are developed to the point of being able to communicate via language to describe dream states we have which are misconstrued as near death experiences doesn't mean we are the only species that experiences dreamlike states. It just means we are the only species advanced enough to tell each other about them.

[struct]

Homo sapiens sapiens
From Wikispecies

Taxonavigation

Superregnum: Eukaryota
Regnum: Animalia
Subregnum: Eumetazoa
Superphylum: Deuterostomia
Phylum: Chordata
Subphylum: Vertebrata
Infraphylum: Gnathostomata
Superclassis: Tetrapoda
Classis: Mammalia
Subclassis: Theria
Infraclassis: Placentalia
Ordo: Primates
Subordo: Haplorrhini
Infraordo: Simiiformes
Taxon: Catarrhini
Superfamilia: Hominoidea
Familia: Hominidae
Subfamilia: Homininae
Tribus: Hominini
Subtribus: Hominina
Genus: Homo
Species: Homo sapiens
Subspecies: Homo sapiens sapiens

http://species.wikim...sapiens_sapiens

edit: notice my signature change

Edited by struct, 28 September 2007 - 12:39 AM.

[rsnuk]

Lol i started thread now have i lol.(I didn't my posts were moved here)

I said nothing about near death experiences none of you cna read, i said outer body experiences which don't have to involve death atall.

Go and study it before you open your mouth or else:

The height of stupidity is when the uneducated man forms opinions in regards to something he knows nothing off, this will be the downfall of society - Albert Einstein.

Modern scientific method of proof is a joke.

You must proove the statement, people have souls, is false, now the burden is on you and if you want to flipflop that to give you justification, then whatever, i've made my point, you can't prove perople don't have souls.

As for OBE's your next move is likely to blame them on some form of biochemical event and okay, fine, i'm not saying it's not a biochemical event i'm saying that it is also a spiritual thing to do with the soul.

You know, you can claim anything to be a purely a biochemical event and not real, for example, i proclaim that cats are simply a biochemical event, they are not real, when i person see's or interacts with a cat, it is merely a biochemical event, i will perform a study and show that when people interact with cats, there are neurochemical transmissions occuring in the brain, then it will be up to everyone else to proove cats are real and not just biochemical tranmissions in the brain.

Rabagley, this isn't open to logical debate, i simply stated neither view can be proven, you think that the fact the soul can't be weighed and measured is proof of it's non-existance?

What constitutes evidence and proof is again subjective, philosphers have never been able to settle the logical issue or what truth or existance are, so how can any "thing" be proven "true".

Those logical rules are great for debating, but this isn't open to debate, i never even claimed i was right, i simply stated i believe it from intuition.

The intellect has little to do on the road to discovery. There comes a leap in consciousness, call it intuition or what you will, and the solution comes to you and you don't know how or why-Albert Einstein

I would propose, spirituality is having a hard time coming down to meet science and science is having a hard time coming up to meet spirituaility, but sooner or later they will meet and then soon there will be no distintion.

"The only real valuable thing is intuition."-Albert Einstein

Yes he was big on intuition...

Oh the nihilism thing, i'm afraid you are nihilists just not consciously aware of it.

It's all subjective anyway, so relax, i'm merely expressing my opinion and your attempts to disprove something that is neither provable or nor disprovable have been pathetically dim witted, you may aswell try and stick your head up your arse, as some of you i'm sure will have more luck at that thankyou will at this.

Let it go, leave it, you don't need, relax peace, love, bye...

[Athanasios]

Those logical rules are great for debating, but this isn't open to debate, i never even claimed i was right, i simply stated i believe it from intuition...

It's all subjective anyway, so relax, i'm merely expressing my opinion...

Let it go, leave it, you don't need, relax peace, love, bye...

See, it is opinion you must sway to gain the voice of the masses, nothing else. Why do you think politicians are the way they are. They aren't as dumb as people make them out to be.

It goes hand in hand with the idea that the public views personal experience as having more weight than science.

[Live Forever]

Modern scientific method of proof is a joke.

Out of all the contradictions with yourself, misspellings, and just outright ridiculous stuff that you said, this has got to be one of the most ridiculous.

[Futurist1000]

i said outer body experiences which don't have to involve death atall.

Out of Body Experience Recreated

Experts have found a way to trigger an out-of-body experience in volunteers.

Their work suggests a disconnection between the brain circuits that process visual and touch sensory information may thus be responsible for some OBEs.
In the Swiss experiments, the researchers asked volunteers to stand in front of a camera while wearing video-display goggles.

Dissociative drugs can cause out of body experiences too.
Dissociative drugs

[Athanasios]

Out of Body Experience Recreated

They have also done this with electrodes stimulating the brain. It was in an earlier thread on NDEs/tunnels/etc.

[electric buddha]

I said nothing about near death experiences none  of you cna read, i said outer body experiences which don't have to involve death atall

It's a pretty easy thing to test if an out of body experience is a hallucination or actual observation of a non-local environment. Just put something in a room that shouldn't be easy to guess. Say, a large board with a four digit number. Have the person who's experiencing the OBE do so, go to the room, and report what he sees. It's been tried over and over again, and the subject has never been able to do better than chance.

Edited by electric buddha, 28 September 2007 - 01:49 AM.

[Luna]

You're like others, just an animal.
Meet your late cousin, the bacteria.

Scientists already proved that OBE is just an illusion and people can precieve information when half dead and the like.

People with OBE never could gain information of stuff they couldn't in their physical state.

People in NDE saw their living mothers and such greeting them in the after life.
Souls are just your way to accept the world and probably, mostly, death.

Stop grasping it so hard and start actually opening your eyes, test it and see.

[cyborgdreamer]

I agree that you can't prove much of anything because the only thing we ever know is what we're experiencing at any given moment. However, logic and evidence give us the tools to build a worldview that is most likely to reflect reality. Reason tells us that, if you have no evidence either way, any arbitrary entity you imagine is unlikely to exist (in this universe, anyway). This is backed up by so much evidence in daily life that it's considered obvious in any context besides religion. For example, why don't we believe that the world is inhabited by invisible sentient apple cores? We have no proof that it isn't, after all. Similarly, we have no evidence for or against the existence of the soul. Therefore, it is unlikely (though not impossible) that souls exist.

Just because we don't (yet) know for sure doesn't mean we can't use logic and evidence to determine the probability of your beliefs.

[Shannon Vyff]

Francis Crick! The Astonishing Hypothesis!

http://en.wikipedia....hing_Hypothesis

[eternaltraveler]

where do these people come from

[Cyberbrain]

where do these people come from

I've been trying to figure that out for a while, I assume it has something to do with the hollow earth and the invisible pink unicorn [tung]

[Live Forever]

where do these people come from

I've been trying to figure that out for a while, I assume it has something to do with th hallow earth [tung]

I thought it was flat...

[Cyberbrain]

where do these people come from

I've been trying to figure that out for a while, I assume it has something to do with th hallow earth [tung]

I thought it was flat...

It was, now the theory says its hollow ... go figure

[struct]

you guys are animals! [lol] and so is Wing girl! ha ha.
I don't get it that some people (or should I say animals) find it offensive to call them so; if they are called 'plant!' or 'fungus' then they legitimately can get offended, I understand that.

[electric buddha]

I assume it has something to do with the hollow earth and the invisible pink unicorn

Shun the non-believer, shun, shuuuuuuunnnnnnnnn!.

Sorry, it's a rare moment when someone brings up both unicorns and caves into the earth.

[Liquidus]

Has it not been scientifically proven that some animals, such as dogs or some types of monkeys show characterization of personality, specific to the individual under observation? If this is actually true (no references on my part), then it could be argued that those types of animals are different from the rest of the animals who do not display personality traits.

My personal philosophy is that the soul does not exist, the patterns of consciousness that is woven inside of our brains helps define our individuality and personality, without it, we are not who we are, there is no soul process involved, only the patterns of consciousness.

[Neurosail]

Man or ape? Austrian court to decide on a chimp's status

"chimps share 99.5 per cent of genes with us humans...The question is: are chimps things without interests, or persons with interests?" That's now up to Austria's supreme court.

Animals are persons and persons are animals

Vote= Yes

[basho]

I assume it has something to do with the hollow earth

I have certain information pertaining to this hypothesis. I may choose to reveal it.

[Shannon Vyff]

oh, yeah, I'm an animal (unfortunately, but someday perhaps I'll evolve into something post-human)

there are caves and unicorns, I've seen them myself (well ok, I was a child )