84 replies to this topic

[ziggy]

10 years ago, I was just 17, my life began to run out of fuel.

I continuosly became bored by basketball, uninterested in others and girls,
lost my ambition for future goals and my enthusiasm for life (of which I had tons in
childhood and early youth).
This anhedonia started to affect nearly every aspect of my life,
from sexual to social skills - anything. The loss of libido has been my main concern btw.

I float around in this world, whereas everyone else is swimming.

I started to experiment with Testosterone, Estrogen and Stuff (I had also developped
a gynecomastia so I thought the hormones were at the core of my probs), but didnt succeed
to reboost my sexual life, which I thought was the key to get motivated again.
(you know, Freud, libido=central drive, *grin*).
Luckily I managed to get myself a university degree in 2005, ironically at a very well known school.
(today I would burn my friggin degree for getting back my health)

In 2006 then I had a severe manic episode (as if I would have desired anymore trouble...)
from then I have been forced to take anti-psychotica (Zyprexa, Lithium), which, as you imagine,
do not quite help me in the sexual department (meanwhile I am as love-less that I have a hard time
to cum at sex (girls almost love me for that haha), but all my desires for hugging and mating are
affected as well so they almost call me Mr Lonely.

One could now say I am simply bipolar, but I dont buy it. Its not quite depression that I am
suffering from, but rather a colourless perception of the world without pleasure,
and my drives are so low that I am rather tempted to suspect I am in the negative
symptoms of schizophrenia (although in my psychosis I never heard voices/saw things and stuff..very odd).

To cut a long story short, no matter if I am schizophrenic of bipolar - I dont care -
what I do care about is to get back the cest for life. At the moment I do only the necessary to keep my job,
am losing many friends for not caring about meeting up and spend my time swapping between browser-windows
with a running tele in the back of a totally messed up room in my parents house. Its terrible. I MUST change
that and I am forced to think brain chemistry is the culprit and the key (although I am prepared for comments
to consult psychotherapeutic help).

Now, I found out, that I might maybe benefit from dopamin-agonists?? The only thing that bothers me about this is that I DO
already have experience how it is to have Dopamine skyrocketing, since in my psychosis it happened! (and there it
did not really gave me back my sex-drive, thats why I am a bit skeptical, maybe you guys have an idea..)

But maybe my dopaminergic system is just out-of-whack, having created a decade of Anhedonia as well as short
episodes of Psychosis and I only have to fix it to the middle of extremes..?

Now I am resolved to try out different stuff and I came across substances like Deprenyl, Bupropion,
Apomorphin, Wellbutrin, SJWort
as well as Tongkat Ali and Maca for just the sexual (main) concern.


I am almost sure the dopamin-dependent brain functions might be the problem. What do you think?
If so, what regimen do you recommend?
I am eagerly awaiting any sorts of reply!

Best wishes from Germany,
Ziggy

[Futurist1000]

It does sound like dopamine might be your problem (an oversimplification in reality). Mirapex might be worth a try. Mirapex

Biol Psychiatry. 2004 Jul 1;56(1):54-60. : Pramipexole for bipolar II depression: a placebo-controlled proof of concept study.
Zarate CA Jr, Payne JL, Singh J, Quiroz JA, Luckenbaugh DA, Denicoff KD, Charney DS, Manji HK.
Laboratory of Molecular Pathophysiology, Mood and Anxiety Disorders Program, National Institute of Mental Health, National Institute of Health, Department of Human and Health Services, Bethesda, Maryland, USA
BACKGROUND: The original serotonergic and noradrenergic hypotheses do not fully account for the neurobiology of depression or mechanism of action of effective antidepressants. Research implicates a potential role of the dopaminergic system in the pathophysiology of bipolar disorder. The current study was undertaken as a proof of the concept that dopamine agonists will be effective in patients with bipolar II depression. METHODS: In a double-blind, placebo-controlled study, 21 patients with DSM-IV bipolar II disorder, depressive phase on therapeutic levels of lithium or valproate were randomly assigned to treatment with pramipexole (n = 10) or placebo (n = 11) for 6 weeks. Primary efficacy was assessed by the Montgomery-Asberg Depression Rating Scale. RESULTS: All subjects except for one in each group completed the study. The analysis of variance for total Montgomery-Asberg Depression Rating Scale scores showed a significant treatment effect. A therapeutic response (>50% decrease in Montgomery-Asberg Depression Rating Scale from baseline) occurred in 60% of patients taking pramipexole and 9% taking placebo (p =.02). One subject on pramipexole and two on placebo developed hypomanic symptoms. CONCLUSIONS: The dopamine agonist pramipexole was found to have significant antidepressant effects in patients with bipolar II depression

Mirapex and Requip are both are dopamine agonists. It seems that they have been used for bipolar depression. For some people these dopamine agonist increase their sex drive (and even other addictions, sometimes to the point of excess). You might need to be on something else to stabilize your mood.
This site has some articles about drugs as they pertain to sex drive.
Dopamine agonists

[kenj]

Well, here's a few thoughts: Consider that oxytocin -- the "cuddle" hormone, has far-reaching effects throughout the body, and may be forgotten, when people seek a pharmaceutical solution for their misery (to usually blast out epinephrine): no drug (pill, spray, injection, whatever) can mimic oxytocins naturally healing effects on the body and brain.
AFAIK, nurturing others, meditating, connecting with other people, *will* solve most problems, - by increasing oxytocin in specific areas of the brain (again, generated by ones actions), - associated with improving anti-social behaviour, depression, lack of motivation, etc. and even strengthen the immune system!

Pro-dopamine drugs in isolation whack the dopamine reward system, and probably generate and/or worsen addictive behaviors (more recreative drugs) to maintain that immediate satisfaction your brain *thinks* it needs, to call it a day. Think about it: if you can minimize the need for immediate relief from feeling bad...

[superpooper]

Adrenal health?

[ziggy]

an interesting thing is that the Dopamine-deficiency could as well explain
my gynecomastia which was quite severe (isnt Dopamine the antagonist
of Prolactine?), although i am aware many teens get that sort of embarassing
problem, it could have been idiopathic.

hrc 579, why did you particularly recommend Mirapex as the dopamin-agonist of choice?
Do they act on different regions of the dopaminergic paths/receptor sites?

another short question: is dopamine the substance that causes desire,
or that is emitted when the brain anticipates desire-fulfilling tasks? (maybe both.. like
the testosterone: it is the source of libido and while sex the LH skyrockets as hell)


ooh, and I also realized I am nomore of ANY addictive potential,
whether gambling, drinking, fuc***** - I just dont feel urges anymore.

[concentrate]

I too have suffered from depression similar to yours, and I'm pretty sure I'm Bipolar II, and sometimes think I have schizophrenia because I have the negative symptoms.



If I was you, I would try Rhodiola Rosea. It optimizes neurotransmitters in the brain. I use it with good results so far.. Also vitamin D increases the enzyme that converts amino acids into neurotransmitters, I take 4000 IU.



"During a 12-wk drug monitoring study, the efficacy and safety of a Rhodiola rosea extract given in combination with vitamins and minerals (vigodana®) were tested in 120 adults (83 women and 37 men, ages 50-89 y) with physical and cognitive deficiencies. Two different dosage regimens were chosen. One group of 60 patients (group 1) took 2 capsules orally in the morning after breakfast, and the other group (group 2) took 1 capsule after breakfast and 1 after lunch. Three medical examinations were performed during the course of the study (at baseline, after 6 wk, and after 12 wk). The evaluated symptoms were divided into physical disturbances such as exhaustion, decreased motivation, daytime sleepiness, decreased libido, sleep disturbances, and cognitive complaints (eg, concentration deficiencies, forgetfulness, decreased memory, susceptibility to stress, irritability).

A statistically highly significant improvement (P<.001) in physical and cognitive deficiencies was observed in the overall group, as well as in the separately evaluated groups 1 and 2. In addition, the time needed to complete a digit connection test decreased significantly in all groups (P<.001). Improvements in group 1 were more pronounced than in group 2, however, indicating that the intake of 2 capsules after breakfast is more effective than the intake of 1 capsule after breakfast and 1 after lunch. Global assessment of efficacy revealed that treatment was "very good" or "good" for 81% of patients, as reported by physicians, and for 80%, as reported by patients. Ninety-nine percent of patients and physicians rated safety as "good" or "very good." No adverse events occurred during the course of the study. The results of this drug monitoring study are very promising, but they still need to be corroborated by future placebo-controlled clinical trials.

PMID: 17901042 [PubMed - in process]"




" There are common genetic mechanisms responsible for both drug effects and subsequent seeking behavior. In 1996, we coined the term Reward Deficiency Syndrome (RDS). Past and current treatment of substance seeking behavior, a subtype of Reward Deficiency Syndrome (RDS), is considered by most to be inadequate. Recently, we evaluated a complex named Synaptaminetrade mark [Haveostrade mark (SG8839R)]. The main difference with an older studied variant and the latest variant is the inclusion of a proprietary form of Rhodiola rosea, a known catechol-O-methyl-transferase inhibitor (COMT) to potentially enhance the activity of presynaptic released dopamine. In this regard, based on the current literature we hypothesize that manipulation of catechol-O-methyl-transferase (COMT) activity to influence the attenuation of substance seeking behavior, is dependent upon gene polymorphisms. In this regard we hypothesize that carrying the LL genotype with low COMT activity should as theorized, increase the reward induced by substance-induced dopamine release and may indeed increase the propensity to type 1 alcoholism and possibly other drugs that activate the dopaminergic system. Thus when alcohol is present in low COMT LL genotype, increasing COMT activity, not inhibiting it should assist in the reduction of social consumption or abuse. Alternatively, under physiological conditions (no psychoactive substances present (e.g. alcohol) carrying the DRD2 A1 allele with associated low D2 receptors should, as theorized, increase craving behavior because of a low or hypodopaminergic state causing the individual to seek out substances that increase the release of dopamine for subsequent activation of unbound D2 sites in the nucleus accumbens. Thus, in the absence of alcohol or other psychoactive drugs (dopamine releasers), especially during recovery or rehabilitation, decreasing, not increasing COMT activity, should result in enhanced synaptic dopamine as physiologically released, thereby proliferating D2 receptors while reducing stress, increasing well-being, reducing craving behavior and preventing relapse. Based on this hypothesis, we believe that adding the COMT inhibitor R. rosea (as Rhodimintrade mark) to our amino-acid and chromium combination in DUI offenders and other illegal drug-related crimes, increases the potential for more targeted neurochemical rebalancing and enhanced relapse prevention. Finally, we hypothesize that these data coupled together provide evidence that the combination of enkephalinase inhibition, neurotransmitter precursor loading, brain tryptophan enhancing and COMT inhibition as well as's genome, may be useful as an adjunct to therapy when used in outpatient recovery, specifically to assist in reducing craving behavior and preventing relapse. DNA analysis of the individual

PMID: 17467918 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]"

COMT I believe is what breaks down dopamine along with MAO.


Further, Rhodiola increases beta-endophins, increases physical and mental capacity, and many other things I can't remember now.

[concentrate]

Mice study-


"Rhodiola rosea L., or 'golden root', is a popular plant in traditional medicine in Eastern Europe and Asia, with a reputation for improving depression, enhancing work performance, eliminating fatigue and treating symptoms of asthenia subsequent to intense physical and psychological stress. Due to these therapeutic properties, R. rosea is considered to be one of the most active adaptogenic drugs. To confirm and extend results obtained in the few preclinical and clinical studies available in English language journals, the purpose of the present study was to re-investigate the effects produced by a single oral administration of an R. rosea hydroalcohol extract (containing 3% rosavin and 1% salidroside) on the central nervous system in mice. The extract was tested on antidepressant, adaptogenic, anxiolytic, nociceptive and locomotor activities at doses of 10, 15 and 20 mg/kg, using predictive behavioural tests and animal models. The results show that this R. rosea extract significantly, but not dose-dependently, induced antidepressant-like, adaptogenic, anxiolytic-like and stimulating effects in mice. This study thus provides evidence of the efficacy of R. rosea extracts after a single administration, and confirms many preclinical and clinical studies indicating the adaptogenic and stimulating effects of such R. rosea extracts. Moreover, antidepressant-like and anxiolytic-like activities of R. rosea were shown in mice for the first time.

PMID: 17072830 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]"

[niner]

I would explore the more common serotonin angle, personally. Do you have any idea what precipitated the manic episode? It's not uncommon to bring on a hypomania with large doses of various compounds, such as steroids, SSRI's, and others. It sounds like you had more than a hypomania, but it's kind of a continuum.

[concentrate]

Yea I actually just read you dont want to use rhodiola rosea if you are bipolar I. So scratch my posts..

[cmorera]

Now I am resolved to try out different stuff and I came across substances like Deprenyl, Bupropion,
Apomorphin, Wellbutrin, SJWort
as well as Tongkat Ali and Maca for just the sexual (main) concern.


I am almost sure the dopamin-dependent brain functions might be the problem. What do you think?
If so, what regimen do you recommend?
I am eagerly awaiting any sorts of reply!

you will almost certainly get no benefit from any medication, your friends are happy and they dont take any medications right?

i believe you will have our answer when you are ready for it, and from this post it sounds like your looking in the wrong paths

[stargazer]

Now I am resolved to try out different stuff and I came across substances like Deprenyl, Bupropion,
Apomorphin, Wellbutrin, SJWort
as well as Tongkat Ali and Maca for just the sexual (main) concern.


I am almost sure the dopamin-dependent brain functions might be the problem. What do you think?
If so, what regimen do you recommend?
I am eagerly awaiting any sorts of reply!

you will almost certainly get no benefit from any medication, your friends are happy and they dont take any medications right?

i believe you will have our answer when you are ready for it, and from this post it sounds like your looking in the wrong paths

He CLEARLY suffers from a severe medical condition and needs professional help, which includes medication.

[ziggy]

niner, I hadnt taken anything before my manic episodes showed up.
(it were two actually, a second one this year after decreasing the medication)

Damn, I just read up about the correlation between schizophrenia and anhedonia,
and there definitely seems to be a thing, especially it says the anhedonia
can be a preceding symptom to the acute phase. And they had diagnosed me with schizophrenia
in the psychiatry but I hadnt believed it since I never had optical/acustic delusions, but maybe
they were right.... if thats true, then:

1. I am schizophrenic (gosh!)
2. There is not much hope for the anhedonia.... I have this kinda feeling..

..maybe the dopamin-agonists can change a tiny bit, but full recovery.... dont know.. :-(

[caston]

10 years ago, I was just 17, my life began to run out of fuel.
(meanwhile I am as love-less that I have a hard time
to cum at sex (girls almost love me for that haha),

I don't believe you. Women get deeply upset when you don't cum. That's what they wanted from you in the first place.

[ziggy]

what I wrote was a bit spontaneous.

of course both has disadvantages for her: cumming to early and not cumming at all.
But some women do enjoy long vaginal sex, of course not all of them.

maybe I wrote that to help my confidence with a "positive" side-effect
of an almost entirely negative thing...yeah.

[chipdouglas]

sexual dysfunction isn't an easy thing to deal with psychologically speaking, no doubt. Although I friends of mine whom I once discussed that admitted sex to be the last thing on their mind and that they wouldn't mind having no libido at all--that was a shock for me to hear that !

As far as women's reaction to a male inability to orgasm, i think many will wonder whether they have anything to do with this, as in : am I doing something wrong ? Am I not attractive enough for him to reach orgasm etc...

But of course there are exception to any rules.

[rebuild101]

niner, I hadnt taken anything before my manic episodes showed up.
(it were two actually, a second one this year after decreasing the medication)

Damn, I just read up about the correlation between schizophrenia and anhedonia,
and there definitely seems to be a thing, especially it says the anhedonia
can be a preceding symptom to the acute phase. And they had diagnosed me with schizophrenia
in the psychiatry but I hadnt believed it since I never had optical/acustic delusions, but maybe
they were right.... if thats true, then:

1. I am schizophrenic (gosh!)
2. There is not much hope for the anhedonia.... I have this kinda feeling..

..maybe the dopamin-agonists can change a tiny bit, but full recovery.... dont know.. :-(

ziggy,

Sorry for any redundant info but it's only because I'm casting my vote for that idea.

First, don't give up. The fact that you're seeking help means you will probably find at least some relief. Second, be patient. Most meds/nootropics take a while.

A lot of your issues sound like things I've been battling too -- particularly the sex drive. Have you had any blood work done? Just wondering how your thyroid, testosterone, and vitamin D levels are doing. You might want to try 1000+ UI of Vit D anyway. Assuming all is well there, I would second the Mirapex or Requip. Since I recently started Requip, I have noticed a significant improvement in drive -- not so much performance but I'm not done yet.

Keep going after the dopamine as you're on the right track. You could try Tyrosine and/or DLPA. And to answer your question, yes, dopamine has to do with pleasure sensing (at least according to my doc and research). More dopamine = things more enjoyable. Be warned tho that too much can also be bad: over aggression, gambling problems, etc. Good luck and keep us posted.

[Futurist1000]

A more technical article about dopamine if your interested.
Dopaminergic mechanism depression/mania

[shanoje]

I'm schizophrenic, and don't really care for or want sex with another individual. But I don't tie my libido to my central drive. I believe that I am at least somewhat ambitious, but that certain aspects of my illness, seperate from libido (although my illness could have something to do with my "libido" as well), hold me down. Some things i might not even be aware of entirely, but one such thing probably being memory. So, for me, I relate an aspect of my central drive to a sharper memory. Once or twice i've thought, "Why do anything if i won't remember it?" or "I could blend in/be a part of society if i could just remember things."

Happiness is a big part of central drive, though. So, if you're bipolar I'd think you're just severely depressed and can't get out of your rut. But maybe for you it is tied to a lack of libido.

Personally, I'm waiting for ampakines. But I think it might be a while (like ten years) before they find something that really helps with schizophrenia.

[ziggy]

shanoje,

thanks for your input.
How about your libido before you got ill?

mine was normal (normally insane),
but that was in times when its supposed to be strong
(puberty)


p.s. interestingly you say "with another individual",
I wonder if that implies its different with yourself...

[Futurist1000]

I'm schizophrenic, and don't really care for or want sex with another individual. But I don't tie my libido to my central drive

Have you tried 30 to 60 grams a day of the amino acid glycine? Its supposed to reduce schizophrenic symptoms (especially the negative ones).
Glycine

[ziggy]

no, dude, not yet,
the thing is: I aint sure I suffer from schizophrenia,
they diagnosed me "the excerbation of a schizophrenic psychosis", but there is
some evidence to doubt this. My delusions were very moderate and not perception-related
as to visionary/acustic senses.
(I would be interested as to what the difference of a schizophrenic and
schizoaffective psychosis is, I mean: would latter one still be schizophrenic, dont know..)

I will try to find it out.
Could the anhedonia, which started in 1998 (8 years before my psychosis)
already have been the schizophrenia...?

Maybe it is just this one single disease that I suffer from (instead of three)...?
tons of questions., sorry for that.


I am crazy about trying out a dopamine-agonist to see what happens.
I very much hope that the chemistry can still do something, although in the net
it says some residual negative symptoms are hard to cure...

[chipdouglas]

Is 30 to 60 g of any amino acid safe long term ?

[graatch]

I'm sorry, antipsychotics for daily symptom control are bullshit. "They're nothing but a godless, rampaging, dopamine-killing machine." Why not take a mood stabilizer? At least on those you can feel pleasure. I like oxcarbemazepine.

[ziggy]

right now I am taking Lithium,
which is, as far as I know, not working by blocking Dopamine.
(like Zyprexa, for example)

It is also supposed to stabilize mood somehow.
(besides making me obese, slow-minded, tired and bad-skinned
in the long run supposedly)

I have never heard of this substance, but maybe should investigate...

[shanoje]

shanoje,
How about your libido before you got ill?

My libido was very high (normal) as a teen.

p.s. interestingly you say "with another individual",
I wonder if that implies its different with yourself...

Most likely I fall under some "misfit" sexual sub-category, like the asexuals (who have never had a libido) or autosexuals (who only are turned on by themselves). Although, I really don't fit either one. I have practically no libido when it comes to another individual. It could very well be psychosomatic, though, or related to the negative symptoms of my illness, too. I just feel more comfortable by myself.

If you relate libido to just sexual manisfestation i'm probably only like 20% below normal, i'd guess. But I don't think it has anything to do with my central drive.

[graatch]

Look, extremely manic highs are similar in a great deal of ways to the positive symptoms of schizophrenia. The manic "crash" can lead to a state resembling the "negative" symptoms of schizophrenia, these symptoms which regular use of antipsychotics will significantly WORSEN.

> right now I am taking Lithium,
which is, as far as I know, not working by blocking Dopamine.

Lithium definitely has a bit of nulling activity on most neurotransmitter function in general, and that includes dopamine. It's not as bad as an antipsychotic here, but ...

Basically I think bipolar mood stabilizers can definitely have their place, but your place with them sure as shit probably won't be what you end up having prescribed to you. Feel too numb? Lower the dose. A great number of bipolars are left with so-called "negative" schizophrenia symptoms or inattentive ADD/depression after they get the mood stabilizers -- conceptually, you could think of it as the ceiling has been lowered too much. That leaves you with the options of lowering your lithium dose, changing to a different mood stabilizer, or adding adjuncts: I know a bipolar II who takes wellbutrin and an SSRI "underneath" the carbamazepine. Plenty of ADD/ADHDers with controlled bipolar on the addforums.com (they have their own section) who had to add on a dopaminergic psychostimulant following their diagnosis and treatment for bipolar. It's really a very common practice -- and a wise one, IMO. Not at all like ANTIPSYCHOTICS FOR DAILY USE, good god.

[ziggy]

thanks for your kind input, guys

meanwhile I am quite sure that the 10 years in which I left my libido
were just the warm-up of a severe psycho-disease,
whether it may now be called psychosis or even schizophrenia.

NOW I thank you graatch for that input about people
who added domanigergic substances to their regimen,
which in the future might happen equally to me. Id love to reduce the lithium
and instead just simply feel sensation for women again, something
I have been missing for soooooo long (and I think its something very important
to feel alive on this planet, just the mind-games of fantasy, how much I had loved them)

interesting shanoje that you were sexually fine as well before
the disease hit you. Which other symptoms did you have before
your first psychosis?

Its funny, I am just coming back from a pdoc who follows an alternative
route. He thinks I can get healed just on my own, activating the body-own
self-healing-mechanisms ("You will learn to have the Dopamine make what YOU want!")
hes quite nice but I also told him I would parallely try the psychopharmacological
way as well (something he thinks is a whole industry of lies and quick bucks)

he then measured my "energy" with an instrument which made me smile
in several ways (I am a physicist). he checked my "frequencies" by shaking a
spring (although he pretended not to do anything) and gave these "frequencies"
to a bottle of water (my medicine from now on) close by. The drops of this water
*will* now activate my psychotic-, drive-, libido- and solarplexus- related centres. Very funny!

I like the guy and I think some meditational/alternative stuff can not be bad,
but I think I will find me another pdoc for the serious medicine.

I keep you posted,
greets, Ziggy

[goldenthree]

Ziggy do you have any anxiety?
Also what was happening around the time these things happened.
I would definitely get your thyroid and testosterone levels measured.(Can't hurt to check, and make sure they check your free t3, not just TSH, supraphysiologic levels of testosterone can cause t3 and TSH to drop) Also I was having the same problem, I felt emotionally jaded all the time. Movies, pretty days, not even stress really affected me. I also felt a little dementia. My thinking and talking were slowing down, and idea which would have come naturally months ago stopped being so natural. Thinking was like banging my head against a wall. My memory also was dissolving I could not remember what I was just doing. I felt like I was losing my mind without ever hearing or seeing anything. However tianeptine has knocked me out of it. I believe it was mild depression partly due to some hypothyroidism, and an adderall prescription. Now I feel like if I watched a sad movie I could almost cry. Oh and thyroxine also seemed to help but not as much.( just experimented with it to see if it was hypothyroidism that was causing it.)
P.S. Are you seeing a psychiatrist for this problem? and if so what did he/she say about it?

[ziggy]

No, I dont suffer from anxiety.

It was just a decline in interests, fun, and desires that has been happening.

The Testosterone... I had been checked so often, and the Thyroid was always normal as well.
But damn, this damn "normal", it s*cks with the time cause the ranges are so big, its always normal!

But I think my problem is in the brain, not in the glands all over the body.
The manic episodes are confirming this guess.

I will see a psychiatrist soon.

[dreamwolf]

Consider - the other side of the dopamine coin:

Excessive dopamine may play a role in depression