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other life on other planets


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#1 bacopa

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 05:45 AM


I was wandering if any of you have considered what other life forms out there in the universe might be like. Thinking about the human realm of things really makes one wonder how much smarter beings could be than us. And in keeping with the whole transhuminist vibe I'd be so curious to hear what some of you believe. Because it's easy to worship the human condition and having big ego's, not that any of you do, could influence how we look at ourselves. Everyone knows that the spectrum is pretty big on how we view ourselves. Those of us who are perhaps not "enlightened" might percieve humanity to be not that amazing and even primitive in many ways, whereas others believe the human condition to be amazing and idolize who we are, certainly the religious right does. I'm somewhere in the middle and more towards seeing humans as quite smart in many ways. So I know it's a weird wishy washy question to ask, but I can't help but wonder how much more intelligent we could get, and if so what about the rest of the universe?

#2 Mechanus

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 09:32 AM

A common opinion among transhumanists is that civilizations become posthuman (post-alien) in an eyeblink compared to the lifetime of stars and galaxies and planets, and at least some of them then proceed to colonize the rest of the universe. This doesn't appear to have happened, and the simplest explanation is that there is no intelligent life anywhere near Earth, probably even none in the visible universe. An explanation for this could be that there is some very hard step in abiogenesis -- that life came into existence here only by freak accident.

Key words: "Fermi paradox".

As for how much more intelligent we can get, Staring into the Singularity is always a fun read.

#3 Thomas

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 09:56 AM

The hard step is already the configuration of the solar system. Perhaps it's easier to have an island 99.9% similar to England, than a large body of mostly liquid water for billion of years or more. Nobody really believes, that there is a lot of visual Englands in Virgo-Coma Supercluster. Let alone in this Galaxy.

Well, what makes a liquid ocean for a long time so improbable?

If we had no big Moon, the Earth's tilt would result oceans to boil in the summer and air to freeze in during the winter time. And that kind of moon so close to the Sun is a lottery win.

A bigger Jupiter would migrate closer to Sun overriding us long ago. A little smaller would cause denser meteorite shower of also bigger chunks.

A bigger star would baked us in Nova long ago. A little smaller would require, that we are closer and the Earth's rotation would stopped, as Mercury and Venus show us.

Anyway - several lotteries you have to win, before the civilization may start. Better look for an England shape island somewhere, than for a nontrivial life.

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#4 AgentNyder

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 01:16 PM

Space is infinite, isn't it? If it isn't - then what is at the end of it? Does anything lie beyond space?

If space is infinite, then an infinite number of civilisations could exist in it. And the probability that one of those civilisations comes into contact with US could be 0/0 - infinite.

If space is infinite - then how are we going to find any aliens? We could by searching for an infinite amount of time and travel an infinite distance, yet still we may not meet any aliens.

#5 80srich

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 01:29 PM

space is infinite the universe isnt as i understand it. Space could go on forever, but the important stuff like planets and energy only exist in the universe. However theres something to be said for the multi-verse theory....

#6 Mechanus

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 01:47 PM

Space is infinite, isn't it?


Maybe. As I understand it, it's our best guess, but no one really knows.

(80srich: Normally, the energy density of the universe is assumed to be (more or less) the same everywhere (cosmological principle). There are models where space goes on forever but matter does not, but these are very marginal and I'm not sure whether they're compatible with newer data at all.)

If it isn't - then what is at the end of it?


If space isn't infinite, then it has some strange shape that loops back on itself, for example the surface of a balloon or donut, but a dimension higher.

If space is infinite, then an infinite number of civilisations could exist in it.


Right, but all but a finite number (zero, if the argument made above is right) haven't been able to reach us yet, assuming FTL travel is impossible.

If space is infinite - then how are we going to find any aliens? We could by searching for an infinite amount of time and travel an infinite distance, yet still we may not meet any aliens.


Only if we're infinitely unlucky.

#7 Lazarus Long

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 03:34 PM

Given we are seeing the remnant expanding gas cloud of the Big Bang moving away in all directions at a measureable velocity & distance; please define why all of you are "believing" space is infinite when the overwhelming preponderance of evidence is that it occupies a (potentially?) "infinitely expanding" yet finite volume?

The issue of Dark Matter (another subject to be found in the Physics and Space Forum) and "Dark Force Energy" (you gotta love the physicist's sense of humor at time) appear at the heart of the question as to whether the Universe will continue to expand forever, become steady state (least probable option), or collapse back upon itself for another Big Bang. These are the basic Heat Death versus the Cold Death scenarios for our Universe.

The other question I have always wondered is; into what is the universe expanding?

This last question may be answered by a combination of Superstring Theory as it integrates a Trans-cosmic model for Multiverse theory if some of the dimensions necessary for Superstring theory occupy Space in relativistic macro and micro cosmic alternative universes.

This is all obviously pure speculation at the moment but certainly fun to ponder, however the limits of our own Universe are not merely theory as it is observable.

#8 Mechanus

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 06:16 PM

Given we are seeing the remnant expanding gas cloud of the Big Bang moving away in all directions at a measureable velocity & distance; please define why all of you are "believing" space is infinite when the overwhelming preponderance of evidence is that it occupies a (potentially?) "infinitely expanding" yet finite volume?


I'm not making this stuff up -- it's what actual cosmologists think. The Big Bang should not be seen as a conventional explosion of densely concentrated matter into an empty space, but as an expansion of the universe (of space, if you want) where everything starts very close together everywhere and gets progressively further apart. In a finite universe, this means the total volume of the universe has to increase; in an infinite universe, the notion of total volume does not make much sense, but things can still move apart locally at every point.

That according to Big Bang theory the universe occupies a "(potentially) infinitely expanding yet finite volume" is a wrong but very widespread piece of folk cosmology.

The issue of Dark Matter (another subject to be found in the Physics and Space Forum) and "Dark Force Energy"  (you gotta love the physicist's sense of humor at time) appear at the heart of the question as to whether the Universe will continue to expand forever, become steady state (least probable option), or collapse back upon itself for another Big Bang.


The universe can't become steady state. The option between "continue to expand forever" and "collapse back" is not "become steady state", but "expand forever, but with speed approaching zero, but with speed approaching zero slowly enough that the expansion is still boundless". It's the same thing as throwing a ball up with exactly enough energy to escape the Earth's gravitational field -- its speed goes to zero, but it will still fly off to infinity rather than hover high above Earth.

These are the basic Heat Death versus the Cold Death scenarios for our Universe.


"Heat Death" and "Cold Death", as normally used, apply in the same scenario (infinite expansion). "Heat Death" means everything dies because entropy reaches a maximum, "Cold Death" means everything dies because it gets too cold. (This is not the same thing.)

(This is just a point of semantics, though -- by "Heat Death", you probably meant everything dies because it gets too hot in the Big Crunch.)

The other question I have always wondered is; into what is the universe expanding?


This is a frequently asked question.

The standard answer is, the universe is a self-contained entity that's not expanding into anything. Your intuitions about clouds and flying balls were manufactured in the ancestral environment and in your lifetime, neither of which included general-relativistic effects.

This last question may be answered by a combination of Superstring Theory as it integrates a Trans-cosmic model for Multiverse theory if some of the dimensions necessary for Superstring theory occupy Space in relativistic macro and micro cosmic alternative universes.


I don't understand this sentence -- do you have any sources for this?

#9 80srich

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 08:03 PM

www.anpheon.net is a good information point for those interested in physics (Sorce theory of matter)

Note the big bang theory has more holes than swiss cheese, maybe AI will come up with some better physics for us.

#10 Lazarus Long

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 08:48 PM

Actually Mechanus what you have said agrees with the first premise I made that we are a "finite" universe only potentially expanding infinitely and I understand that beyond the Big Bang wall exists no Space/Time, so the question rides what is it expanding into?

BTW, where did you get this stuff?

Your intuitions about clouds and flying balls were manufactured in the ancestral environment and in your lifetime, neither of which included general-relativistic effects.


You must be mixing me up with someone else, please find even a vague quote I have made that says anything even remotely like this?

And you have not answered what the expansion is into either all you have said is that we are still expanding.. Maybe.

I am aware of the scenarios as you have presented them and as 80srish has suggested there is little of explanation in any of this and Quantum Mechanics is also too limited to resolve the complexities and Relativity isn't a fashion statement it is still supported by a reasonable amount of data.

The last comment has to do with an emerging physics of Multiverses and how this might integrate with Superstring theory that has various mathematically described dimensions depending on whose variation of it you wish to analyze but appears to be 9 or 11 depending on which author.

The idea is that what if these dimensions are manifestation of other Universes in a relation to this one, at least one reflecting a Universe of greater magnitude (macro) another of smaller (micro) than quarks. If Multiverse theory is validated this may reintroduce this ind of discussion. I was mostly throwing out as a stimulus to try and discuss this in English and not mere mathematical formula.

#11 Mechanus

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 08:51 PM

80srich:

("org", not "net")

In what way does "sorce theory" differ from all the other hundreds of crackpot theories of everything?

#12 80srich

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 09:03 PM

Just the one that most convinces me so far. Im sure in 100+ years time nearly all of the theories models that exist now will have been made completely redundant.
Explaining the nature of the universe might be impossible.
We can but try.

#13 Mechanus

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 09:30 PM

Actually Mechanus what you have said agrees with the first premise I made that we are a "finite" universe only potentially expanding infinitely


But what I'm saying is that we probably aren't a "finite universe only potentially expanding indefinitely". The universe is probably already infinite. (It could be finite, but as I understand it the evidence is somewhat against that possibility. It's certainly not knowably finite.)

and I understand that beyond the Big Bang wall exists no Space/Time


What's the Big Bang wall?

You must be mixing me up with someone else, please find even a vague quote I have made that says anything even remotely like this?


Apologies if I was making unwarranted assumptions about your thought process; but in my experience, the reason why people ask "what is the universe expanding into?" is that they imagine a classical cloud or explosion, like the ones they're used to in everyday life but much hotter, bigger, etc.

And you have not answered what the expansion is into either


I have answered that question with a "mu". As far as anyone knows, the universe is not expanding "into" anything.

I am aware of the scenarios as you have presented them and as 80srish has suggested there is little of explanation in any of this


The scenarios I've presented are (my understanding of) the scenarios considered by the experts. Don't tell me you're becoming a crackpot, too?

and Quantum Mechanics is also too limited to resolve the complexities


I don't understand what you mean.

and Relativity isn't a fashion statement it is still supported by a reasonable amount of data.


Of course.

The last comment has to do with an emerging physics of Multiverses and how this might integrate with Superstring theory that has various mathematically described dimensions depending on whose variation of it you wish to analyze but appears to be 9 or 11 depending on which author.


According to superstring theory (any of the 5), the universe has 9 space dimensions and 1 time dimension. According to "M theory" (also sometimes called string theory), the universe has 10 space dimensions and 1 time dimension.

How might the physics of multiverses integrate with superstring theory? A link that explains this would be much appreciated.

I don't understand the following sentence at all:

The idea is that what if these dimensions are manifestation of other Universes in a relation to this one, some one reflecting a Universe of greater magnitude another of smaller than quark relation.


If Multiverse theory is validated this may reintroduce this ind of discussion.  I was mostly throwing out as a stimulus to try and discuss this in English and not mere mathematical formula.


There's no problem with discussing physics in English, so long as the words connect to the mathematics. Physicists use common words to denote precisely defined things. These common words often already have other associations that have nothing to do with their meanings in physics; and if you don't understand what these meanings are, then there's no reason why sentences using such words should make any sense. This is how relativity cranks and quantum mystics are born. They mistake popularizations (often inaccurate descriptions of the underlying mathematics) for the actual theory.

The concept of "energy" as used by physicists, for example, has very little to do with the intuitive associations most people have when hearing the word.

#14 Mechanus

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 09:41 PM

Just the one that most convinces me so far. Im sure in 100+ years time nearly all of the theories models that exist now will have been made completely redundant.


Have you considered taking the views of the scientific community into account in the decision which theory convinces you?

No one (no sane person) claims to already have a working theory of everything. Theories like relativity are imperfect approximations, and will almost certainly be replaced by even more accurate ones in the next 100 years. But at the same time, relativity is a good approximation in certain situations, while theories like "sorce theory" are either wrong or meaningless. This is not the same kind of "redundant".

Asimov has said:

"[W]hen people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."

#15 Lazarus Long

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 08:32 AM

I am sorry if I am giving rushed responses Mechanus but I am trying to grab moments on this computer at very odd times (currently it is 3:30 am and I must be back on the roof in a few hours with no ability to stay and focus my responses as I am involved in a major reconstruction project under the threat of a hurricane. I will try and come back later with a more precise expression.

The basic problem is that we can point our telescopes out and see the limits of the Universe in all directions, that is the basis of how we can determine the age of the Universe. We detect the same ambient receding background radiation in all directions and the prevailing theory of what we are looking at is the receding remnant of the Big Bang. I just call it the Big Bang "wall" because in it is the "earliest" view of Space/Time as it is the farthest visible matter and is expanding away from the center of the "blast."
http://www.space.com...w_010605-2.html

But what it also represents is the beginning of time so by inference beyond it is "no time" and "no space," Astronomers do not see an infinite Universe in the sense most people describe it, they see a Universal Space/time that begins with and expands from an initial Big Bang of what was essentially an unstable Singularity or Black Hole prior to the explosion.

http://www.space.com...ole_030917.html

The math of that is still highly speculative and I do not think it is helpful to act supercilious about it, hence it is not behaving like a "crackpot" to acknowledge we know a lot less than we speculate about. We have a lot of elegant beautiful hypotheses it is simply unwise to presume these even amount to completely coherent theories as many of them are not supported by all the physical evidence, not to mention the inherent contradiction of such profoundly supportable theoretical models such as Quantum Mechanics and Relativity. I am not a crackpot to advise you to keep a more open mind about questions.

On the issue of String theory and Multiverses I am the one "inventing that relationship" I was speculating about how two seemingly unrelated areas of theoretical physics may overlap logically and BTW there is very little verified and quantifiable evidence to support any of these theoretical models as of yet so please do not behave so parochial so as to decry anyone that doesn't agree with you as a "crackpot". It was clear that I was creating a hypothesis for examination, but one that happens to have enough logical basis to be at the forefront of theoretical examination.

Strings Attached: New Study Puts Limits on Physics of Extra Dimensions
http://www.space.com...ems_030226.html

On a separate note, while I do believe there's an overlap between the Laws of Physics and Politics that is more something that works at levels very few understand sufficiently to even question in a valid manner and it is not the reason I said what I said about speaking clearly. I have also found that what isn't expressible is also not so clearly understood. All too many physicists retreat to the math as a manner of saying "I understand what you do not" and what I have also learned is that they often were reading an "understanding" into the math that wasn't as they often presumed it to be and those that really do understand the math are invariably able to find the words to translate that comprehension into more common language.

Math is the purest form of language for the purpose of understanding Universal Laws but any concept that can be understood mathematically can also be translated by those that make such analysis or they may find they should still be questioning what they presume they comprehend.

The Big Rip
http://www.nature.co...9/030609-7.html

Big Bang Theories
http://www.space.com...e_010413-1.html

#16 Mechanus

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 02:47 PM

I am sorry if I am giving rushed responses Mechanus but I am trying to grab moments on this computer at very odd times (currently it is 3:30 am and I must be back on the roof in a few hours with no ability to stay and focus my responses as I am involved in a major reconstruction project under the threat of a hurricane.


Good luck.

You're correct that there is a sort of wall beyond which nothing can be seen ("surface of last scattering"). That wall is a part of the universe a few hundred thousand years after the Big Bang, when the universe first became transparent. If we could see beyond that wall, we would see the even earlier universe. At some point early enough, we no longer have a good idea what happens, because quantum gravity takes over. Looking even further (if it were possible) would correspond to looking at a time before the Big Bang. No one knows (yet?) whether there was anything before the Big Bang and what it was, although everyone seems to have an opinion.

However, what we see when we look far into space does not correspond to a situation that existed at any one time. The "wall" is strictly an artifact of how our perception is limited by the finite speed of light (if you lived in another galaxy, you would see the wall in a different place), and what actually exists at any one moment could well be an infinite universe. (Literally, actually infinite, going on forever, with an infinite amount of stars, planets, and so on.)

You mention a center of the "blast", but it's generally believed that there is no center -- the Big Bang happened everywhere, or nowhere, depending on how you look at it. The expanding spherical "wall" is centered on Earth (or on whoever is doing the observing), not because this is a special point, but because that's where we're looking from, and only the light from a sphere of finite radius (the visible universe, or observable universe) has yet been able to reach us. If there is a "cosmological constant" that causes the universe to accelerate its expansion, then this sphere will (AIUI) reach a finite maximum value at some point in the future (probably only in several billion years, if I recall correctly) and then start to contract. If there is no dark energy causing the universe to accelerate, or if there is but it goes to zero, then the observable universe will grow to encompass the entire universe (over an infinite amount of time).

The math of that is still highly speculative and I do not think it is helpful to act supercilious about it, hence it is not behaving like a "crackpot" to acknowledge we know a lot less than we speculate about.


I did not mean to give off the impression that everything is already known about cosmology. There are a lot of big open questions (how did the universe begin, is it infinite or not, will it expand forever, is there one or more, what's up with the cosmological constant, and so on). On the other hand, there is a lot that is known (that there was a Big Bang, that general relativity and quantum field theory are approximately right, and so on), and cosmologists have good ideas on what sort of answers may and may not be plausible for the big unknown questions. I don't think it's unfair to consider those who reject these mainstream ideas without understanding them "crackpots". This probably does not include you, though, sorry about that (I was a bit annoyed with how the forums here seem to be overrun by a wide variety of loonies (by which I again do not mean you!)); I wasn't sure whether that was what you were saying, which is why I asked. "Sorce theory" definitely falls under that definition of crackpot.

I was speculating about how two seemingly unrelated areas of theoretical physics may overlap logically and BTW there is very little verified and quantifiable evidence to support any of these theoretical models as of yet so please do not behave so parochial so as to decry anyone that doesn't agree with you as a "crackpot".


I never used the word crackpot in connection to this overlap between string theory and multiverses -- I just don't understand what you mean. Is it anything like this, for example?

I don't think there's an area of theoretical physics that deals with multiverses in general, although there are a few areas of physics that involve multiverses (many-worlds QM, eternal chaotic inflation, etc.)

"In short, science at its finest: nobody knows what the heck is going on! But we'll sort it out soon, and then we'll sadly have to move on to the next question.

(I wrote the last sentence because I know from bitter experience that otherwise some crackpot will fasten on my previous remark and say "Baez admits that in science nobody knows what's going on! Therefore my insane theory could be right: Mars is a neutrino! Nyeh nyeh!")"


-- John Baez

;)

I have also found that what isn't expressible is also not so clearly understood.


This is often true, but there's no guarantee the expression will be simple or straightforward. Physical theories generally aren't simple or commonsensical or intuitive, and any presentation that makes them seem that way is leaving out most of the subtleties. The only thing one can do is to explain very carefully how everything works, what mathematical concepts are used and how they correspond to our intuition, and so on. I see this happen much more in places like internet newsgroups and FAQs than in news articles or many popular science works. Many explanations seem freely associating and sensationalistic to me, only vaguely mapping to the actual physics, leaving the reader to fill in most of the details, often wrongly.

If you can explain something in physics or especially mathematics to your grandmother, then you have probably not understood it. ;)

#17 MichaelAnissimov

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Posted 23 September 2003 - 08:03 AM

Just to bring John Baez into this some more...

http://math.ucr.edu/...z/crackpot.html

;)

#18 David

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Posted 24 September 2003 - 02:24 AM

dfowler, in answer to your original question, they're green. And they look like Mr Bumpy, the cartoon character. My youngest son told me so, and he's not to be messed with!




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