23 replies to this topic

[balance]

Greetings everyone,


I have tested out a ton of supplements from Life Extension in the last 6 months, but
now want to finalize, make my own regimen, and most importantly, stick to it. I like
to be very precise and I'm overly critical, this has caused me to feel unable to make
a permanent choice. Therefore I would love to hear what a few of the experts here have
to say about it. All my supplements are from Life extension btw.

This is my current regimen:

3 Cognitex
4 Mitochondrial energy optimizer (without SODzyme)
1 super ubiquinol 100mg (the newest one that replaces the bioactive q10)
4 super omega 3
5 bone restore
2 two per day
1 magnesium citrate
2 vitamin D3 1000IU capsules

and 1x a week:

1 vitamin k2


I used to take the life extension mix and a bunch of other supplements, but the difference between
me and most other people is that I actually like IGF-1, DHT and testosterone. I don't have any specific
health concerns, at least, none that require supplements, and I'm a 20 year old male.

I'll give a few examples of my dilemmas:

high dose lycopene reduces IGF-1 levels and DHT levels (so no super booster for me)
high dose zinc reduces DHT
we all know soy's effect on DHT/testo, so no sodzyme with wolfberry, sodzyme in the mitochondrial, or separate soy.
green tea and it's effect on DHT
high dose biotin and it's effect on DHT
grape seed extract DHT.
Curcumin DHT
DIM and I3C Dht killers
pomegranate estrogenic, as are most other herbs
tocotrienols, cholesterol reducers... don't want that either.
resveratrol IGF-1 reducer
Beta-sitosterol strong DHT killer (along with saw palmetto, but I wouldn't want to take those anyways)

And of course I realize that fish oil is also a DHT reducer, and omega 3 and polyunsaturated fats by nature will do that...
I guess I just want to know if what I'm taking right now is beneficial at my age, or whether the cognitex/mitochondrial and q10 are a waste of money. I take the q10 due to heart disease problems being in my family, my father takes statins, and his father died when he was 49 of heart disease. The mitochondrial I take because A: it's a nice meat replacement in terms of carnosine, carnitine. B: because even if on a high meat diet, you'll get only about 300mg or less, and this gives me 1000mg, carnosine being correlational with longetivity, it seemed like a good choice, since it's not a testo killer as I dub it. The lipoic acid is a nice add-on with the carnitine, and getting them separately costs significantly more money, thus the move for the mitochondrial. The fish oil and cognitex are actually mostly taken for optimizing memory/brain function etc. I do get pleny of high intensity exercise which also gives more reason to take the q10 and mitochondrial. With the exception of maybe the rhodiola having a negative (in my eyes) effect on DHT/testosterone, or the PS found in cognitex, I can't think of anything that would lower it. And I haven't found any info on rhodiola or PS doing that yet, so that's why I've kept them in there.

I'll be taking all the best stuff at around 30+ or 40, but right now until at least 30, I want to keep DHT & testosterone levels as high as they can be.

Many thanks in advance for reading this, and checking it out.

Edited by piet3r, 25 October 2007 - 10:29 PM.

[health_nutty]

What *are* your goals for taking supplements?

[balance]

My goals are obtaining optimal health as much as possible, without reducing levels of IGF-1, gH, DHT and testosterone.

I already got a perfect diet (for as far as any diet could be), lifestyle, and all that
goes along with that. It is as healthy as I can think of; complete
avoidance of smoking, alcohol, drugs of any kind, processed foods, sodas, simple carbs, candy or cookies or any kind of food like that.
I eat to live and don't live to eat. That's why I'm figuring out my final step in this process, which is supplements.


Cheers,

Edited by piet3r, 25 October 2007 - 10:31 PM.

[david ellis]

Doesn't DHT require control? I am trying to reduce DHT. I blame DHT for being bald and troubled by BPH. Who wants that?

Why not go all the way on carb restriction? Some complex carbs are starches. Starches turn to sugar in your mouth and are not an essential food. Why not drop them from your diet? Eating non-starchy vegetables instead has the advantage of phyto-nutrients and very low calorie levels - they are mostly water.

[balance]

The reason i'm raising my DHT is because I have too much long hair, and my girlfriend is jealous of me.

Just joking.

Carb restriction lowers testosterone and DHT levels. I don't have any worries over DHT, the hair loss is only a problem when one has a genetic predisposition. My hair reaches beyond my shoulders, and it hasn't fallen out yet.

Thanks for your care and post.

Edited by piet3r, 25 October 2007 - 10:31 PM.

[Shepard]

So, you're worried about adding the muscles?

I guess it looks cool, except I'm not the biggest fan of LEF all-in-one formulas and you're missing a balanced E product.

And you'll find some mixed opinions on CoQ10 for your age. One person in particular has theorized too much CoQ10 can throw redox out of whack.


Edit: Had some crazy stuff going on.

Edited by shepard, 26 October 2007 - 03:30 AM.

[balance]

I have the Gamma E with tocotrienols, which I take along with the fish oil which
has the sesame lignans, which do plenty of good for gamma E on it's own. The thing is,
I figured when I'm quitting the Lef mix, which is finished soon, I don't see a direct need for the gamma E, since it's usually done to not displace E in the body. Of course you could say it's great anyways, but again, the tocotrienols reduce cholesterol production...

Tell me more about the redox theory. I can understand you're not a big fan of all in one's because of the fixed dosage, but for me right now I don't have a problem with it.

Could you comment on whether it's useful or not at my age to use the cognitex and mitochondrial energy optimizer?


Thank you

[kodi]

high dose lycopene reduces IGF-1 levels and DHT levels (so no super booster for me)

The following 2007 study seems to indicate that lycopene doesn't affect IGF-1 levels, at least at a 15 mg dose:
http://npg.nature.co...l/1602632a.html

Lycopene supplementation [15 mg/day] in healthy male subjects has no effect on IGF-1 or IGFBP-3 concentrations in a healthy male population. However, the association between change in lycopene concentration and change in IGFBP-3 in the intervention group suggests a potential effect of lycopene supplementation on IGFBP-3.

tocotrienols, cholesterol reducers... don't want that either.

You could take a gamma E without tocotrienols (LEF has a kind with sesame that they say is more bioactive).

Carb restriction lowers testosterone and DHT levels.

Does anyone have a study or other evidence to support this?

[Shepard]

Carb restriction lowers testosterone and DHT levels.

Does anyone have a study or other evidence to support this?

Well, insulin is steroidogenic and deceases synthesis of SHBG.

[Shepard]

Tell me more about the redox theory. I can understand you're not a big fan of all in one's because of the fixed dosage, but for me right now I don't have a problem with it.

Could you comment on whether it's useful or not at my age to use the cognitex and mitochondrial energy optimizer?

I really just don't like the all-in-one formulas because they are rarely set up in optimal configurations (don't discriminate between absorption rates with food vs. w/o) and yeah, the dose thing.

As far as redox is concerned, theoretically, it's well regulated in the young and healthy. Although, I'm not sure how accurate that is given the times we live in. When you really get into this area, you'll see all the various signaling pathways some ROS play a part in and everything that goes along with too much or too little of them.

[balance]

Hey Shepard,

Do keep in mind that when you take a bunch of nutrients they can work synergistically which means you don't need
to take as high dosages of the individual ingredients.

Btw with the ROS theory are you referring to this?

"Production of reactive oxygen species (ROS) was increased in coenzyme Q10 treated flies, whereas nicotinamide reduced ROS production"

See I actually figured that to be more the case when one supplements with lipoic acid, maybe less with r-dihydrolipoic acid, but still, the body can make it by itself, and it may not be very wise to supplement it... yet we see so many benefits from supplementation, almost makes you wonder whether the machine is imperfect for
not producing enough of it's own (the body).


The reason I took the the gamma E with tocotrienols, is because it's the full spectrum of E, they are a similar price (tocopherol) and you can't really get tocotrienols that easily. I know the sesame boosts gamma more than tocotrienols, and it's also a better antioxidant, but my solution to that, was to take the tocotrienols along with fish oil (since it has sesame lignans in there), and the mix (also contains sesame), this way you get the best of both worlds.


I've seen that 15mg lycopene study, the thing is, there's more that definitely show a decrease in IGF-1, versus ones showing no difference...

The source where I got the calorie intake with testosterone association is this:

Thorton, Jim. " Maximum Testosterone." Men's Health. April, 2005, pp. 146-155,182.

Another site supported this:

In some of the studies mentioned in Part Two, passing mention was made that a high fiber intake was associated with reduced T levels. However, it was mentioned in Part One that fiber intake is good for GH levels as it helps to stabilize bloods sugar. And fiber intake is important for general health reasons. So the main point is that an excessive amount of fiber should be avoided. In fact, the very high fiber intake of vegetarians could be another reason they have such low T levels.

Another issue mentioned in passing in one of these quotes was that restricted caloric intake lowered T levels. This is more directly mentioned in the same source as follows, "We've observed a direct relationship between caloric intake and testosterone levels" (Thorton, p.154).

So a restriction in calories can lead to a drop in T levels. This is one reason people will plateau when trying to lose weight, regardless of the type of diet they are following. The mere reduction in calories can lead to a drop in T levels, which can hinder weight-loss efforts.

link: http://www.fitnessfo.../part_three.htm

Edited by piet3r, 26 October 2007 - 01:29 PM.

[kodi]

The reason I took the the gamma E with tocotrienols, is because it's the full spectrum of E, they are a similar price (tocopherol) and you can't really get tocotrienols that easily. I know the sesame boosts gamma more than tocotrienols, and it's also a better antioxidant, but my solution to that, was to take the tocotrienols along with fish oil (since it has sesame lignans in there), and the mix (also contains sesame), this way you get the best of both worlds.

Nice idea. I do the same thing myself by taking Sesame-Gamma-E together with fish oil and sesame-borage-oil (GLA). That way the two sesame doses (hopefully) apply to all three items.

The source where I got the calorie intake with testosterone association is this:
...restricted caloric intake lowered T levels. This is more directly mentioned in the same source as follows, "We've observed a direct relationship between caloric intake and testosterone levels" (Thorton, p.154).
So a restriction in calories can lead to a drop in T levels.

Ah, so it's calorie restriction that reduces testosterone, not carb restriction. That's a relief because I've been practicing low-carb, but also want to get my free testosterone to be optimal. I'm 38 and free testosterone is only 12.7 (optimal range according to LEF is around 18-22).

Thanks for the links and info.

[kodi]

Well, insulin is steroidogenic and deceases synthesis of SHBG.

Ah, so by having less Sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG), you get more free testosterone. That's good to know. However, I suspect it's too high a price to pay because keeping your insulin levels as low as possible improves insulin sensitivity (for those who need that) and may slow down aging. Some say they've achieved an insulin level of zero, and that's my tentative goal (though I wonder if it's optimal).

[Shepard]

Some say they've achieved an insulin level of zero, and that's my tentative goal (though I wonder if it's optimal).

Not really possible. You can get it quite low, though.

The absence of insulin is the presence of death.

[balance]

Thank you very much for posting. Kodi if I were you'd I'd go for the gamma E tocotrienols, you get more benefits. But you're still good with combining them with the GLA.

You know the thing is I discovered that most of testosterone's outward effects are rather because of DHT. Testosterone is mostly present in the muscles. For example, that study on boys with 5alpha reductase deficiency, they go through puberty normally, get the testosterone induced muscles and size, but they're genitals don't develop, and they are raised as girls. All body hair, penis, voice etc are all due to DHT. So those fools who try to fool you by saying they have the answer, and that DHT is the bad guy, and does not good, and needs to be eliminated is in fact a fool himself...

I eat a diet providing about 40-55% fat, I feel great, and I'm totally healthy, and I barely got any body fat, it's around 4-5 percent, all muscles for the rest.

Following many mainstream dietary advice will get you ending up like a female in a sense... Low fat, high fruit (sugar), low testosterone/DHT. I'd say stick more to vegetables than fruits due to the sugar. The more fat you consume, the more testosterone you produce. It's not so much related to cholesterol intake, 99 percent is made in the liver anyways. It's far more important which TYPE of fat you eat, rather than how much. And no, i'm not telling everyone to eat tons of omega 3. Those fats and other polyunsaturated fats actually lower testosterone. The best would be to eat plenty of mono-unsaturated fats, like peanuts/butter/olive oil. Some saturated fat is fine, and some omega 3 fatty acids. Stay away from trans fat. I believe the true evil to be all the sugar and some trans fat. That that low fat hype is very stupid.


Cheers,

[kodi]

Thank you very much for posting. Kodi if I were you'd I'd go for the gamma E tocotrienols, you get more benefits. But you're still good with combining them with the GLA.

There don't seem to be many good studies that demonstrate a strong advantage of tocotrienols over tocopherols. For example, I haven't found any studies that are both in vivo and long-term. Therefore, I'm playing it safe (and cheaper) until some better evidence comes along.

So those fools who try to fool you by saying they have the answer, and that DHT is the bad guy, and does not good, and needs to be eliminated is in fact a fool himself...

Well, I'm sure DHT is highly desirable when you're young (like you) to ensure complete expression of male characteristics. But once you get older, all the gurus say to focus on optimizing DHEA, testosterone, free testosterone, and estradiol. Like you said, folks like Ray Kurzweil and LEF.org all say that conversion of testosterone into DHT is something to be minimized.

I eat a diet providing about 40-55% fat, I feel great, and I'm totally healthy, and I barely got any body fat, it's around 4-5 percent, all muscles for the rest.

I do the same, though my diet is even higher in fat (over 70%). Although I'm not certain this is optimal, my research indicates that getting more protein than you need is counterproductive (since it's more costly to metabolize than fat). I've been mostly avoiding carb except for the fructose in blueberries and cataloupe. Technically you don't need to eat any carb at all to be healthy, though it's possible that being carb-free would be suboptimal in some way I haven't discovered.

The best would be to eat plenty of mono-unsaturated fats, like peanuts/butter/olive oil. Some saturated fat is fine, and some omega 3 fatty acids.

That's good because the lion's share of my calories are olive oil and walnuts, with lesser amounts of avocados, flax seed, and mixed nuts/seeds. For protein I eat rice protein (complemented with a lysine pill) and steamed chicken/salmon. Finally, I use a blender to pulverize some blueberries, broccoli, carrots, lettuce, and other veggies.

That that low fat hype is very stupid.

Yes, it was an epiphany for me to dispel the myth that "fat makes you fat" and clogs your arteries. Even the foot-dragging mainstream medical establishment seems to be gradually shifting to this perspective.

[balance]

Hey Kodi,

That's excellent. I actually thought about doing the 70% fat diet, but I couldn't really think of a way to do that... without obtaining either something that's hard to do all day, or that's the wrong type of fat. Congratulations on that.

The tocotrienols are very powerful anti-cancer agents, and good against things like excess cholesterol. I'd recommend you go for it.

I didn't mean to make it look that simple. To avoid confusion: DHT is a good thing when you're young and growing up to full potential. But above 30 there's no need for very high dht levels. Surely some DHT is nice for sex drive and feeling youthful vigor, but indeed it's pro-flammatory and not that important then. On top of that, if you are a male with a genetic predisposition for DHT caused hairloss, then it's definitely in your interest to lower DHT levels. I'm just saying it's not something for all ages. Once lef actually mailed me that a younger person can take the exact same supplements as an older person, just for prevention instead of treatment. I find this to be total bullshit. Taking a high dose lycopene supplement, and a resveratrol supplement during your teens will CERTAINLY make you grow less... Something I don't find very positive.


Yes they are indeed shifting that myth, but it seems to happen so SLOWLY, it's like people are generally too stupid it seems... I don't mean to sound arrogant, but I always seem to expect too much from people... Most people are sheep following the herd, and the herd is leading them straight to hell.... It is up to YOU as an individual to stand up and take care of yourself, because nobody else will do it!

[david ellis]

Well, insulin is steroidogenic and deceases synthesis of SHBG.

Would the lower insulin caused by low-carbing at 30-90 carbs/day have a noticeable effect on testosterone?

[health_nutty]

The more fat you consume, the more testosterone you produce.

All the studies I've come across show an increase up to a point (somewhere around 30-40% of calories if I remember correctly). Is there a new study that shows something different?

[balance]

I found one that said 50% gave even more testosterone. They just limited it to 30-40 because they're worried they might still be giving bad advice....
I believe the more fat, the more testo, the only limiting factor to that would be that
at one point, if you don't eat enough protein, you'll suffer with testosterone too.

That said, protein intake is the number one inversely correlated dietary substance, that means, the more protein, the less testosterone at one point, so plenty of bodybuilders are being stupid... I'd say keep the protein intake between 8-20 percent of total calories max. Probably I'd say 12-15% is ideal. Try to have the rest be mostly made up of fat.

[Shepard]

I'd like to see that if you have it on hand piet3r.

Would the lower insulin caused by low-carbing at 30-90 carbs/day have a noticeable effect on testosterone?

In theory. Although, some proteins are quite insulinogenic. But, continuing, whether it's noticeable beyond a blood test, I couldn't tell you. And even if it did, I don't know if it'd be worth the cost of higher insulin levels (depends on the individual, probably).

[health_nutty]

I'd like to see it too.

[EmbraceUnity]

I have the Gamma E with tocotrienols, which I take along with the fish oil which
has the sesame lignans, which do plenty of good for gamma E on it's own. The thing is,
I figured when I'm quitting the Lef mix, which is finished soon, I don't see a direct need for the gamma E, since it's usually done to not displace E in the body. Of course you could say it's great anyways, but again, the tocotrienols reduce cholesterol production...

Tell me more about the redox theory. I can understand you're not a big fan of all in one's because of the fixed dosage, but for me right now I don't have a problem with it.

Could you comment on whether it's useful or not at my age to use the cognitex and mitochondrial energy optimizer?


Thank you

The Mitochondrial Energy Optimizer is great! I love it! The only thing in there that is kind of stupid is SODzyme. Since it is the same price, I take the kind with SODzyme, but I would consider taking the other kind simply because I see no point of taking extra useless things that could conceivably interact badly.

Cognitex on the other hand is something I had been taking. The problem is that it has a lot of things both you and I don't need at our age. (I am also 20) I like the idea of uridine and A-GPC. I am uncertain about PS and Ashwagandha... I don't think they are harmful, but maybe not justifiable from a cost/benefit angle. I already take blueberry and grapeseed in some of LEF's other formulas. Vinpocetine and pregnenolone are almost certainly unnecessary at our age.

With pregnenolone, one should only take it while getting regular hormone tests. Speaking of that, I should probably follow my own advice as I use up the last of my Cognitex... but I went this long without it! Wow, I'm stupid.

Isn't LEF's new site pretty? Join the World Transhumanist Association and you can get some LEF discounts!

[balance]

Hey

Thanks for replying.

I'm sorry healthy nutty and shepard, I don't have the research anymore, most of the time I just read it, check it, and then delete it, otherwise my pc would be totally full of these things, I'm the kind of guy that likes to organize and not have too much stuff.

Thanks a lot for the replies though, I really need it, I need to finalize this program.

Funnily enough, I also liked the idea of the uridine and A-GPC.
But we probably have plenty of that in our brain as it is. I don't notice anything when I take it. I took 9 gels a few times, noticed nothing except for a bit of muscle twitching, which shows the CNS is getting overloaded, probably by all the choline. Same with the mitochondrial, one day I took 20 caps, noticed nothing. I've also taken 400mg of super bioactive ubiquinol 100mg, no effects noticed.
I know you can't notice an effect of everything you're taking, but I was hoping to notice something positive. However, it's probably positive that I don't notice anything, due to it showing that levels are all optimal now.

Hopefully people like Duke Nukem and zoolander would like to check out this post as well, any comments would be highly appreciated.