26 replies to this topic

[pezzonovante]

Hey everyone,

I'm a college student who has recently discovered the world of nootropics. I have always been very interested in human enhancement, and I feel that trying brain enhancers was only natural for me given the trajectory of my interests and personal development.

That being said, I chose piracetam as my first nootropic given the wide range of users and favorable research backing it. I have been using it for 3 days, and I've got to say that the effects are not what I expected.

I could feel it shortly after my first dose (720mg bulk piracetam + 1200mg lecithin) and over the course of the first day I took two more identical dosages. At first I felt slightly wired and I liked it, but then i started feeling plain weird - my brain was moving too fast and I could feel a lot of anxiety. I tried talking to a friend and if anything I saw decreased verbal fluency. My friend said that I seemed different, "impulsive" was how she described it. I found myself talking with first confirming it inside my head (which is what I usually do), leading me to say thing I normally wouldn't say.

Second day - I felt pretty good after the first dose (same 720 + 1200) and then took another later. I was trying to study at the library and couldn't focus AT ALL. I started talking to a couple friends about how unmotivated I was and then it started.. I was blown away by my verbal acuity. I seriously wish I could have recorded it. Crazy vocab, perfect expressions, metaphors that would hit it on the dot, very witty, etc. They noticed it and complemented me on how much my speech has improved (friends I haven't seen for a while). I also noticed greater hand-eye coordination. Couldn't fall asleep at night.

Third day - Woke up feeling pretty good, took a small first dose (maybe about 500 mg + 1200 lecithin) and had to make a few phone calls. Felt great. Then took another dose (similar to morning), and felt ok. Then took another one, and started feeling horrible. Brain racing, headache, way too speedy. Took a nap, and I feel better but still got a slight headache.

I took the Braverman Assessment and here are my results -
Dominance
Dopamine 30
Acetlycholine 10
GABA 16
Serotonin 17

Deficiency
Dopamine 9
Acetylcholine 10
GABA 9
Serotonin 9

I guess I am significantly dominant in dopamine and pretty deficient in acetylcholine. If anyone has the same makeup as me, could you tell me how I should adjust what I take, any recommendations, etc.

I think my solution is to start taking less, as I feel good up to the first dose. I must be really sensitive to either the Piracetam or the Choline, possibly because of my deficiency to Acetylcholine.

What does everyone else think? Why is it making me so unmotivated to study? What should I do with the choline..less/more? I ordered some CDP Choline as well. Basically any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks!

[synaesthetic]

You may respond better with a micro dose, I also recommend that you try different types of choline without piracetam.

Many days I will take no *ratems, just Alpha GPC Choline to help boost my focus.

[pezzonovante]

Thanks for your response. I'm loving your avatar, thats the guy from Doom right? On one of the cheats if I recall correctly

What kind of affect do you feel from just the Choline alone? How does it compare to taking it with the ratem?

[brotherx]

Just a quick response,

I also would try it Alpha GPC instead of the Lecithin!
...so I am sure that you get rid of the headaches.
Maybe you get also rid of the confusion.

From choline alone you might not feel anything.

Cheers

Alex

Thanks for your response. I'm loving your avatar, thats the guy from Doom right? On one of the cheats if I recall correctly

What kind of affect do you feel from just the Choline alone? How does it compare to taking it with the ratem?

[hamishm00]

Lecithin crossing the blood brain barrier might be your problem. Always take the Lechithin with vitamin b5 (Pantothenic Acid).

Other options other than Lecithin include Centrophenoxine (Lucidril) is one of the best options for your choline replenishment. DMAE is ok. Choline Bitartrate should be avoided it seems - low bioavailability.

[pezzonovante]

I tried taking a small dose today (350 mg + 1200 mg lecithin) and it made me just feel really depressed and unmotivated.

I realized that it was almost identical to how I felt when I used to do cocaine (sped up but real shitty otherwise).. something wrong with my neurotransmitter system perhaps?

[brotherx]

I guess I have felt a little depressed at the very beginning (I wasn't sure if I should contribute it to a lack of sleep or the beginning of the stack).
But after a short while I felt great again - and still feel.

And I would definitely switch to a better choline source.

Cheers

Alex

I tried taking a small dose today (350 mg + 1200 mg lecithin) and it made me just feel really depressed and unmotivated.

I realized that it was almost identical to how I felt when I used to do cocaine (sped up but real shitty otherwise).. something wrong with my neurotransmitter system perhaps?

[pezzonovante]

After feeling horrible for most of the day, on a whim I tried taking about 400mg of Piracetam alone with no lecithin. I felt great! I felt so good that I took 750mg more before going to the library. Couldn't really tell any difference in cognitive or verbal ability, but just felt really amped and hyper. Was pretty motivated until all of a sudden I got really tired and just took a quick nap at the library (something that never happens to me). Afterwards I felt baseline.

Can anyone explain why I feel so shitty when I take lecithin? It seems the more lecithin:piracetam I take, the worse I feel. I should be getting my CDP Choline within two days, hopefully it will give me the effects I've been looking for.

[abelard lindsay]

I too am an extremely dopamine dominant personality. I find Piracetam helps moderate my dopamine and even out my personality with respect to the other brain chemicals. Too much Piracetam over a period of time tends to make me a little too mellow. Lately, I prefer Pramiracetam which is more compatible IMHO with my dopamine dominant personality.

If you want to feel really strange, being a dopamine dominant, try Oxiracetam. It really put my brain in a choline mode. Things that were normally horrifyingly boring, even painful, like clothes shopping and going to trinket stores with my significant other suddenly became enjoyable with Oxiracetam. I think it makes my brain more perceptually tuned into the subtleties of texture, and colors, etc. instead of being totally caught up in the cerebral intellectual aspects of things as it normally is. It's not really pleasurable, just different. It helps me realize how other people, whose brains are tuned differently, see the world. I think we become dominant in one chemical or another because that's how our brains are tuned. We adapt our personalities, interests and habits to our personal tuning.

[pezzonovante]

That's very interesting. I ordered some Pramiracetam and PhenylPiracetam as well so I'll be looking forward to trying those out. Should I use the CDP Choline with the Pramiracetam as well? What ratio do you use?

I am glad I took the Braverman Assessment because it helped me figure out something that has perplexed me for my whole life. My brain always felt kind of slow, in that I would be slow to react to things that happened quickly (especially verbally). It never caused me any big problems, but it was always one of the biggest things I wanted to change about myself. I just never knew how. Now that I've made the connection between acetylcholine deficiency and my mental sluggishness I can't wait to see how things will be different. I think the cause is genetic as my mother is like that as well. I'm going to try to whole array of choline enhancers, as well as modify my diet to boost my acetylecholine. Is there any other advice you can give me as a dopamine dominant? Thanks a lot, I appreciate the help.

[abelard lindsay]

I always take 700mg of Choline Bitartrate every morning (capped of course, the stuff tastes like vomit) with my pramiractam. I don't really find that Alpha GPC on a daily basis is worth the extra cost, though it certainly does work. With regard to choline promoting supplements you might want to try Aceytl-L-Carnitine (preferably in combination with Alpha Lipoic Acid) and Huperzine A (which slows down the breakdown of Choline in the brain) which are good for building up choline. DMAE had a negative effect on me so don't expect anything great if you try it.

[brotherx]

Pezzo,

you might be interested in the following abstract about Phenylpiracetam:

"Carphedon,Phenylpiracetam (C12H14N2O2, 2-(4-phenyl-2-oxopyrrolidin-1-yl)acetamide) is a derivative of the nootropic drug piracetam. It was developed in Russia, and a small number of low-scale clinical studies have shown possible links between prescription of carphedon and improvement in a number of encephalopathic conditions, including lesions of cerebral blood pathways, and certain types of glioma."
(source: http://www.answers.com/topic/carphedon accessed:29.08.2007)

"A small number of low-scale clinical studies have shown possible links between prescription of Carphedon and improvement in a number of encephalopathic conditions, including lesions of cerebral blood pathways and certain types of glioma."
(source: http://www.knowcance.../cancer/glioma/ accessed:29.08.2007)

Definition of glioma:
"A glioma is a type of primary central nervous system (CNS) tumor that arises from glial cells."

Here is the link of that thread:

http://www.imminst.o...nylpiracetam&s=

Tale care

Alex

That's very interesting.  I ordered some Pramiracetam and PhenylPiracetam as well so I'll be looking forward to trying those out.  Should I use the CDP Choline with the Pramiracetam as well?  What ratio do you use?

I am glad I took the Braverman Assessment because it helped me figure out something that has perplexed me for my whole life.  My brain always felt kind of slow, in that I would be slow to react to things that happened quickly (especially verbally).  It never caused me any big problems, but it was always one of the biggest things I wanted to change about myself.  I just never knew how.  Now that I've made the connection between acetylcholine deficiency and my mental sluggishness I can't wait to see how things will be different.  I think the cause is genetic as my mother is like that as well.  I'm going to try to whole array of choline enhancers, as well as modify my diet to boost my acetylecholine.  Is there any other advice you can give me as a dopamine dominant?  Thanks a lot, I appreciate the help.

[rebuild101]

I tried taking a small dose today (350 mg + 1200 mg lecithin) and it made me just feel really depressed and unmotivated.?

I noticed I got a little depressed when I did more than an 800 mg piracetam decrease in one day. Makes sense since you usually shouldn't drastically drop doses on nootropics or prescription meds. It could be you had the same reaction yet on a smaller dose change?

Where did you buy the lecithin? Are you suspicious at all on its quality or expiration? Most people say you get headaches if you're not getting enough choline. But everyone is different, and it sounds like you narrowed it down to the lecithin.

[pezzonovante]

Thanks for the articles brotherx, pretty interesting stuff.

Rebuild - The Lecithin is Now brand that I got from BulkNutrition. It was definitely the culprit, I have been taking 400mg doses of just Piracetam 3x times a day and have been feeling GREAT. I feel energetic, talkative, with slightly enhanced verbal and cognitive skills. The most significant effect is the energy, I could describe it as feeling giddy (almost in a childish way). The only downside is that instead of seeing any memory increases, it feels slightly worse if anything.

I think I am just really sensitive to piracetam, and when I took it with the Lecithin it was too much for me. My brain would be racing way too fast, and though the positive effects were really good (significant increases in verbal acuity and hand eye coordination), they were inconsistent. I mostly felt really shitty, and extremely depressed at certain moments.

With the piracetam alone, it feels suspiciously like when I used to take adderall, only with quicker onset and smoother comedowns. I will still try to CDP Choline when I get it, though I anticipate feeling even worse than I did on Lecithin. Haha I feel like a drug researcher and human guinea pig rolled into one, the last few days have been interesting to say the least.

[brotherx]

Pezzo,

a pleasure! ;-)
Keep us posted!

Cheers

Alex

Thanks for the articles brotherx, pretty interesting stuff.

Rebuild - The Lecithin is Now brand that I got from BulkNutrition.  It was definitely the culprit, I have been taking 400mg doses of just Piracetam 3x times a day and have been feeling GREAT.  I feel energetic, talkative, with slightly enhanced verbal and cognitive skills.  The most significant effect is the energy, I could describe it as feeling giddy (almost in a childish way). The only downside is that instead of seeing any memory increases, it feels slightly worse if anything. 

I think I am just really sensitive to piracetam, and when I took it with the Lecithin it was too much for me.  My brain would be racing way too fast, and though the positive effects were really good (significant increases in verbal acuity and hand eye coordination), they were inconsistent.  I mostly felt really shitty, and extremely depressed at certain moments. 

With the piracetam alone, it feels suspiciously like when I used to take adderall, only with quicker onset and smoother comedowns. I will still try to CDP Choline when I get it, though I anticipate feeling even worse than I did on Lecithin.  Haha I feel like a drug researcher and human guinea pig rolled into one, the last few days have been interesting to say the least.

[tothepoint]

Where are you getting the 400mg Piracetam? Everywhere I see it only available at 800mg

[pezzonovante]

I have the bulk powder, I've been taking 1/8 teaspoons.

I didn't feel as good today. I'm guessing that it's because either -

1) Without an outside choline source, my innate AcH is running low

2) Simply because I didn't get that much sleep the past two days

I'm gonna sleep a lot tonight and see how I feel tomorrow. This supplementation is making life pretty interesting..

[rebuild101]

Sleep could definitely interfere. Hopefully that will do the trick. If not, you might be right about the low choline. Was it headaches again or just feeling run down? If you are sensitive to the effects of choline (which would make sense when taken with piracetam. They're synergistic.) then either a very low dose or off/on days might do you well.

keep us posted, pezzonovante. It's always good to hear success stories, though the non-success ones are important too.

[pezzonovante]

Starting Thursday I no longer felt the giddiness that I had been experiencing on Piracetam alone. I think that a large part of it was just because it felt great to NOT be taking that horrible Lecithin anymore.

I got my CDP Choline on Friday morning and I've been on it ever since. My dosing has been 800mg Piracetam + 250mg CDP-Choline x2 a day. I have also been trying to eat 2-3 eggs a day. My experiences so far have been pretty similar to general consensus regarding the effects of Piracetam. Slight increase in cognitive abilities, increased verbal acuity, and slightly quicker thinking. In addition, it makes me feel a lot more calm and "balanced out". I do not feel any headaches or the hyper thinking. The only downside is that I have a lull in the middle of the day (usually between doses) where I am extremely tired and lethargic. I also feel more tired after eating.

If you could draw a distribution of piracetam response like the following -

Overstimulated (headaches)-5-4-3-2-1-Sweet Spot-1-2-3-4-5-Understimulated (tired)

I would say I am around 1-2 in the understimulated side. How should I adjust my piracetam dosing / choline intake to get closer to my sweet spot?

Also, what kind of effects would Acetyl-L-Cartinine have?

Any advice would be appreciated.

Edited by pezzonovante, 05 November 2007 - 08:13 AM.

[tothepoint]

They're synergistic

Rebuild,
Can you point me to any scientific papers that state the connection between choline and piracetam? I've asked this question a bunch of times on this forum but usually I don't get a response :(. I'm taking Piracetam + CDP Choline based on the general consensus on this forum rather than solid proof that I've actually seen.

[mitkat]

They're synergistic

Rebuild,
Can you point me to any scientific papers that state the connection between choline and piracetam? I've asked this question a bunch of times on this forum but usually I don't get a response :(. I'm taking Piracetam + CDP Choline based on the general consensus on this forum rather than solid proof that I've actually seen.

Piracetam will use up your choline and possibly leave you deficient, which can give headaches to some. If no one answered your question before, it's only because it's been talked to death Search the forum and you'll find plenty of references.

[rebuild101]

They're synergistic

Rebuild,
Can you point me to any scientific papers that state the connection between choline and piracetam? I've asked this question a bunch of times on this forum but usually I don't get a response :(. I'm taking Piracetam + CDP Choline based on the general consensus on this forum rather than solid proof that I've actually seen.

Tothepoint, while I can't immediately offer you any papers, I'm glad to see you asking for scientific papers. You're looking for more authoritative information which is more than some people think to do. Thus, the information provided on this forum should be treated for what it is: just information spouted on an Internet forum. I'm not saying you can't get reliable or good information here, just that it's always a good idea to do some research on any claims.

mitkat had it right when he suggested you search the forum. Also, if you aren't familiar with Pub Med or Google Scholar, I suggest you check those out. Don't be intimidated by some of the tech med speak... Good luck!

Pub Med: http://www.ncbi.nlm....ov/sites/entrez
Google Scholar: http://scholar.google.com/

[graatch]

Piracetam will use up your choline and possibly leave you deficient, which can give headaches to some. If no one answered your question before, it's only because it's been talked to death wink.gif Search the forum and you'll find plenty of references.

Actually I've never seen any scientific reference on this whatsoever, just conjecture and anecdote (placebo?).

[rebuild101]

Actually I've never seen any scientific reference on this whatsoever, just conjecture and anecdote (placebo?).

I don't know piracetam uses up choline per se, but there is scientific evidence that choline combined with piractam is the way to go. Piractam plus choline was proven suprior to just either substance alone. Granted, this study was done on rats. I'm sure there is more out there if you look:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....6&dopt=Citation

[tothepoint]

Thanks for the links rebuild!

[ksperfection]

I got my CDP Choline on Friday morning and I've been on it ever since. My dosing has been 800mg Piracetam + 250mg CDP-Choline x2 a day. I have also been trying to eat 2-3 eggs a day

Why the Eggs?

[blazewind]

Eggs have 300~mg choline per egg. Also not everyone needs supplemental choline with racetams, I don't (with oxiracetam 2400/mg a day)