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Does ALCAR build up or down?


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#1 chelated

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 06:17 AM


I have read various research articles that one needs to take ALCAR continuously for it to build up in one's system for repairing mitochondria of cells etc.....Has anyone been taking ALCAR for a continuous basis on this forum?


Would taking ALCAR on a continuous basis lead to a down-regulation of various receptors (dopamine, acetycholine, etc..) like some drugs do in the long run resulting in faster aging...Although it is an amino acid and a little more i am questionable about the effects of it and would like to hear some testimonials...

I plan on using it to repair damage from prior psychiatric drug use which resulted in my brain cells already being in a state of down-regulation resulting in low hormone output...

I want to make sure ALCAR isn't one of those over-stimulating supplements on the various neurons of the brain...I already have tried it a few times but not continuously and i am about to try it continuously with ALA but before i do i need some more information from those of you on this forum...

#2 browser

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 02:19 AM

I have read various research articles that one needs to take ALCAR continuously for it to build up in one's system for repairing mitochondria of cells etc.....Has anyone been taking ALCAR for a continuous basis on this forum?


Would taking ALCAR on a continuous basis lead to a down-regulation of various receptors (dopamine, acetycholine, etc..) like some drugs do in the long run resulting in faster aging...Although it is an amino acid and a little more i am questionable about the effects of it and would like to hear some testimonials...

I plan on using it to repair damage from prior psychiatric drug use which resulted in my brain cells already being in a state of down-regulation resulting in low hormone output...

I want to make sure ALCAR isn't one of those over-stimulating supplements on the various neurons of the brain...I already have tried it a few times but not continuously and i am about to try it continuously with ALA but before i do i need some more information from those of you on this forum...


This is off topic, but have you checked out Inosotil? At doses of 12 grams a day it's as effective as most tricyclic antidepressants. I know a number of people who have taken 12-24 grams a day (careful, bowel mobility at higher doses) to kick start themselves after having been discontinued from SSRIs.

Edited by browser, 05 November 2007 - 03:15 AM.


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#3 chelated

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 06:05 AM

i don't really have an psychiatric issue but thanks for your recommendation anyway...I do have chronic pain and depression but the reason i took drugs in the first place was for TMJ that created an fight-or-flight response in my system for 5 years that was unbearable till i figured my jaw was dislocated and im the one that dislocated it but never put 1 and 1 together till almost 5 years later...I managed to make my jaw back to its near optimal position and lose the majority of the anxiety but i still need to fix the chronic pain that i still have from it which is why i am seeing an oral surgeon for help..i feel my system is still in fight or flight just not as much..but inositol i read can over-stimulate D2 receptors which is why i don't think its a good idea for me personally to take it as mine have been super ultra sensitized from risperdal and ssris...I just want to work on strengthening receptors, ATP, etc and read alcar is a superior supplement...i did try inositol already for trying to get a libido boost but ultimately it felt like it was over-stimulatory on the receptors and i don't take it nemore just maybe in ADAM's vitamin from NOW there is a bit which i don't take that often...

My main concern is anyone who is smart out there can tell me if ALCAR over-stimulates like a drug tends to do or does it fix damage without causing down-regulation of receptors with continuous use...

#4 bgwithadd

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 11:18 AM

Alcar is not something to worry about. Neither is tuarine/. Everyone should be taking both og those, or better yet acalr-arginate. I've been taking it a few days and I have doubled my work. Take with vit c for an extra c boost. alcar-aginate stimulates a lot of NGF and other factors in addition to its other acions (which are not limited to neuroprotection.

#5 hamishm00

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 12:29 PM

Yeah, also switched to the Alcar Arginate for the last month.

Can't say I've noticed a difference from the ALCAR (which I have been taking for 2 years now).

#6 nowayout

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 01:18 PM

My main concern is anyone who is smart out there can tell me if ALCAR over-stimulates like a drug tends to do or does it fix damage without causing down-regulation of receptors with continuous use...


I do not have an answer to the part of your question regarding tolerance. I would also be very curious to hear from anyone who may have taken ALCAR for a long period, whether they noticed any tolerance developing. Also interesting would be to hear from anyone who stopped ALCAR after a long period of continuous use, whether they noticed any rebound effects after cessation of ALCAR.

As to the part about overstimulation, I remember seeing a mouse or rat study where the effect of ALCAR on anxiety behaviour was investigated. The response was U-shaped. Up to an optimal dose, anxiety was decreased, but then at higher dosages, anxiety was actually increased over baseline. I find a similar effect on chronic pain I have from a shoulder injury. For me, at 250mg per day, ALCAR definitely decreases the pain significantly. However, at a higher dose of 500mg per day, ALCAR actually increases the pain (with a somewhat delayed onset of a few hours).

#7 nowayout

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 02:34 PM

I want to make sure ALCAR isn't one of those over-stimulating supplements on the various neurons of the brain...I already have tried it a few times but not continuously and i am about to try it continuously with ALA but before i do i need some more information from those of you on this forum...


I would not take ALA. There is evidence that ALA may have irreversible harmful side effects (i.e., that cannot be reversed by stopping supplementation). See for example, the thread

http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=23646

where ALA was actually shown to be life-shortening when combined with a specific CR regime in rats. The full paper whose PDF is downloadable in that thread is interesting reading that I personally find scary (e.g., the specific life-shortening side effect of ALA can essentially last half a (rat's) life after stopping it). To me this suggests that if indeed there are negative side effects in humans discovered tomorrow, you might not be able to recover from them quickly if at all by stopping ALA.

However, you can take ALCAR without ALA. The original motivation for adding the ALA became obsolete with newer research that found that the oxidative stress found in earlier ALCAR studies on rats was due to overdosing. Lower doses were found to avoid the oxidative stress side effect and to be more effective. Some of this is discussed in the threads

http://www.imminst.o...o...55&hl=ALCAR

http://www.imminst.o...o...48&hl=ALCAR

Edited by andre, 05 March 2009 - 02:37 PM.


#8 shaggy

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 07:01 PM

I want to make sure ALCAR isn't one of those over-stimulating supplements on the various neurons of the brain...I already have tried it a few times but not continuously and i am about to try it continuously with ALA but before i do i need some more information from those of you on this forum...


I would not take ALA. There is evidence that ALA may have irreversible harmful side effects (i.e., that cannot be reversed by stopping supplementation).


That study on rats cannot be used in evidence to make this assumption...what rubbish... The dosages were insane for a start....

#9 nowayout

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 09:39 PM

I want to make sure ALCAR isn't one of those over-stimulating supplements on the various neurons of the brain...I already have tried it a few times but not continuously and i am about to try it continuously with ALA but before i do i need some more information from those of you on this forum...


I would not take ALA. There is evidence that ALA may have irreversible harmful side effects (i.e., that cannot be reversed by stopping supplementation).


That study on rats cannot be used in evidence to make this assumption...what rubbish... The dosages were insane for a start....


No, the doses were not insane when metabolically adjusted. Did you actually bother to do this? The human-adjusted effective dose used was about 9g of racemic ALA, which contains 4.5g of R-ALA, which is in the ballpark of what some people here actually take.

Also, have you bothered to inform yourself of whether these authors did dose-ranging studies? If you had, you would have seen that no dose-response was published. In the absence of a dose-ranging study, it is quite possible that the harmful effect is already significant at, for example, 200mg. What if it is linear in the dosage, or depends the cumulative lifetime exposure irrespective of dosage? There is just no way of knowing at this point. Or do you have a direct line to the angel Gabriel?

Also, if you had bothered to read what I actually said, you would have seen that I was not making an "assumption" but stating a warning. The warning, with is certainly supported by the study, was that ALA may have irreversible side effects. This warning is certainly justified by the study since we do not know at what dose the harm starts. To claim that it is baseless in the absence of contradictory evidence is irresponsible or worse.

Edited by andre, 05 March 2009 - 10:08 PM.


#10 VespeneGas

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 04:48 AM

Lets take a breath here people! :)

I'm not yet a scientist, but I DID read michael's analysis carefully, and from what he said, when metabolically scaled, the doses were within the therapeutic range for people (about 950 mg/day racemic).

Secondly, I think it's a bit innaccurate to state that ALA was life shortening in the study. The real conclusion was that ALA when supplemented in early life, "exerts a stable, epigenetic effect on REDOX-sensitive transcription factors, and thus prevents the shift into the alternative metabolic state." In other words, if you eat ad-libitum with ALA for many years, then switch to CR, your body will not undergo (all) the beneficial metabolic changes characteristic of CR. Which is a bummer if you plan on restricting your calories, but just fine if you plan to eat ad libitum - like most people here do. Here's the appropriate lifespan comparison from the study:

Lifelong AL: 926 - 854 - 1100
Lifelong AL + lipoic: 900 - 858 - 1105

Also, AL + ALA followed by CR did not shorten lifespan, it just reduced the beneficial effects of CR. Again quoting michael here, whose invaluable reading we are indebted to:

"It's interesting that this [AL + ALA --> CR] group had an intermediate LS, better than lifelong AL (± LA) but not as good as AL ---> unsupplemented CR at the same, youthful age; note, especially, that that the survival curve shows typical AL mortality during AL and continuing for some months after the switch to the CR + LA diet, but that they did eventually enter into a more CR-like pattern (see Fig 4b), suggesting a memory effect that was overcome with enough time and initial youthful metabolic flexibility."

So the long and short of it is: if you plan to practice CR, don't consume therapeutic doses of ALA until you've successfully made the transition. Otherwise, it's fair game, and probably a very beneficial nutrient.

Hope this helps clear things up!

@ OP: I don't think you've got anything to worry about WRT receptor downregulation - in fact, I've never heard of someone going through withdrawal from a cholinergic chemical, though anything's possible. I just ran accross this study, which may be more pertinent to iron-gobbling oxidatively-challenged mice, but I liked it anyway:


Effects of dietary supplementation with N-acetyl cysteine, acetyl-L-carnitine and S-adenosyl methionine on cognitive performance and aggression in normal mice and mice expressing human ApoE4.
Chan A, Shea TB. Center for Cellular Neurobiology & Neurodegeneration Research, University of Massachusetts Lowell, Lowell, MA 01854, USA. Thomas_shea@uml.edu

In addition to cognitive impairment, behavioral changes such as aggressive behavior, depression, and psychosis accompany Alzheimer's Disease. Such symptoms may arise due to imbalances in neurotransmitters rather than overt neurodegeneration. Herein, we demonstrate that combined administration of N-acetyl cysteine (an antioxidant and glutathione precursor that protects against A beta neurotoxicity), acetyl-L-carnitine (which raises ATP levels, protects mitochondria, and buffers A beta neurotoxicity), and S-adenosylmethionine (which facilitates glutathione usage and maintains acetylcholine levels) enhanced or maintain cognitive function, and attenuated or prevented aggression, in mouse models of aging and neurodegeneration. Enhancement of cognitive function was rapidly reversed upon withdrawal of the formulation and restored following additional rounds supplementation. Behavioral abnormalities correlated with a decline in acetylcholine, which was also prevented by this nutriceutical combination, suggesting that neurotransmitter imbalance may contribute to their manifestation. Treatment with this nutriceutical combination was able to compensate for lack of dietary folate and vitamin E, coupled with administration of dietary iron as a pro-oxidant (which collectively increase homocysteine and oxidative damage to brain tissue), indicating that it provided antioxidant neuroprotection. Maintenance of neurotransmitter levels and prevention of oxidative damage underscore the efficacy of a therapeutic approach that utilizes a combination of neuroprotective agents.

#11 nowayout

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 01:35 PM

Secondly, I think it's a bit innaccurate to state that ALA was life shortening in the study. Also, AL + ALA followed by CR did not shorten lifespan, it just reduced the beneficial effects of CR.


I disagree with your characterization. ALA-fed animals had significantly shorter lives than ALA-free animals on an identical feeding regimen. The factor that made their lives shorter was the ALA supplementation in their youth. That is to me a life-shortening effect.


Which is a bummer if you plan on restricting your calories, but just fine if you plan to eat ad libitum - like most people here do.


Your conclusion (that it is just fine if you plan to eat ad libitum) does not follow from the premises. If you wish to support this claim, you need to cite long-term safety studies of ALA in healthy humans.

The important conclusion that I think a reasonably prudent person should draw from the study is not this one particular side effect, but the fact that side effects of ALA can persist long after ALA feeding is stopped. They could possibly even be irreversible (at least in the case a subset of these rats, the effects lasted pretty much the whole rest of their lives). Since the mechanism of action of ALA is pretty much a mystery, it is quite possible that there may be a slew of other similarly subtle side effects unrelated to CR. In fact, it would be extremely surprising if ALA only blocked something as exotic as CR adaptation and nothing else - what was the odds that one of the first things they looked at would have been the one and only thing ALA affected negatively?

This suggests the possibility that if you do develop any side effect from ALA, good luck getting healthy again by stopping ALA. You just might have to wait for years to recover, if you ever do.

So the long and short of it is: if you plan to practice CR, don't consume therapeutic doses of ALA until you've successfully made the transition. Otherwise, it's fair game, and probably a very beneficial nutrient.


Again, such a strong conclusion is not warranted in the absence of long-term safety studies.

Just to list one risk you would be taking. Imagine that scientists discovered a "Methusalem" drug that mimicked CR without the need to diet and that made people live 30% longer. Today this is within the realm of possibility. The cited rat study raises the distinct possibility that, if you have supplemented with enough ALA in the past, your body may be permanently blocked from responding to the Methusalem drug, and you will sicken and die long before everyone else in your peer group. Are willing to take this risk just because ALA "probably a very beneficial nutrient"?

Edited by andre, 06 March 2009 - 01:53 PM.


#12 sentinel

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 02:24 PM

Back to the OP, I took Alcar for about 6 months and really noticed very little. Then I stopped and suddenly...nothing - it really hadn't made any discernable change. However I have never heard of anyone harming themselves with their Alcar intake (the who ALA/RALA thing is completely different and TBH is off topic for this thread) so I would not worry about taking it.

Even if I didn't feel it in the way many others do, based on the research and anecdotal account, its probably going about its business making me slightly healthier.

#13 shaggy

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 05:28 PM

I want to make sure ALCAR isn't one of those over-stimulating supplements on the various neurons of the brain...I already have tried it a few times but not continuously and i am about to try it continuously with ALA but before i do i need some more information from those of you on this forum...


I would not take ALA. There is evidence that ALA may have irreversible harmful side effects (i.e., that cannot be reversed by stopping supplementation).


That study on rats cannot be used in evidence to make this assumption...what rubbish... The dosages were insane for a start....


No, the doses were not insane when metabolically adjusted. Did you actually bother to do this? The human-adjusted effective dose used was about 9g of racemic ALA, which contains 4.5g of R-ALA, which is in the ballpark of what some people here actually take.

Also, have you bothered to inform yourself of whether these authors did dose-ranging studies? If you had, you would have seen that no dose-response was published. In the absence of a dose-ranging study, it is quite possible that the harmful effect is already significant at, for example, 200mg. What if it is linear in the dosage, or depends the cumulative lifetime exposure irrespective of dosage? There is just no way of knowing at this point. Or do you have a direct line to the angel Gabriel?

Also, if you had bothered to read what I actually said, you would have seen that I was not making an "assumption" but stating a warning. The warning, with is certainly supported by the study, was that ALA may have irreversible side effects. This warning is certainly justified by the study since we do not know at what dose the harm starts. To claim that it is baseless in the absence of contradictory evidence is irresponsible or worse.



I have never met or heard of anyone taking such dosages as 9grams of the racemic or 4.5g of R-ala. Most folk I know hover around 500mg of R-ala, with very few venturing of a gram.

And for me your assumption that ALA is deleterious to health or longevity based on this sole study on rats is very tenuous indeed...like you say in several of your posts lets see some human data before coming to such conclusions.

Edited by shaggy, 06 March 2009 - 05:43 PM.


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#14 nowayout

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 06:58 PM

I have never met or heard of anyone taking such dosages as 9grams of the racemic or 4.5g of R-ala. Most folk I know hover around 500mg of R-ala, with very few venturing of a gram.


Do you know for a fact at what dosage this particular side effect becomes significant? If so, please state your source. For all we know the dose-response curve for this effect could be flat between 200mg and 20 grams. I know of other drugs with a flat dose-response over a couple orders of magnitude, so this would not be unheard of.

And for me your assumption that ALA is deleterious to health or longevity based on this sole study on rats is very tenuous indeed...like you say in several of your posts lets see some human data before coming to such conclusions.


Again you are imputing an assumption to me that I did not make. The lesson that I drew from the study, as I stated before, is that the effects of ALA may last a significant time after cessation of ALA. In a subset of the rats, the effect appeared to be irreversible. So even if you do not care about this particular effect, the possibility is there that if you do develop side effects of whatever sort from ALA (and the study shows that side effects can be very subtle and take half a lifetime after stopping ALA to make themselves known), you may not be able to get healthy again soon or at all by stopping ALA.

...like you say in several of your posts lets see some human data before coming to such conclusions.


That's like saying in the 50s, okay, we found that smoking causes cancer in rats, but let's wait for human data before bothering to stop smoking.

Edited by andre, 06 March 2009 - 07:25 PM.





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