21 replies to this topic

[edscissorhands]

I am an 18 year old male who is fairly new to the nootropic scene. I exercise regularly (I swim and play competitive club volleyball) and consider my diet to be a fairly healthy one. I have been browsing this board for the last few months and have started taking:

Piracetam - 800mg 2x daily
Alpha GPC - 600 mg 2x daily
Omega-3 - EPA(700mg)/DHA(500mg) 2x daily

Initially my main concerns were a lack of concentration and feeling of hopelessness that began to grip me about two years ago. I turned to nootropics to help alleviate these two problems. I got side-tracked with regard to this goal, however (its my senior year of high school), and ended up settling on piracetam (for the time being) as my introductory nootropic as it seems to be the most well regarded and well researched. I have been taking it for about a month now along with choline and have noticed both an improvement in my vocabulary and an increased desire to express myself. I also feel more creative and find myself having fun while writing school assignments, even though writing has typically been my weakest subject. I recently began my nootropic quest once more, still searching for solutions to my lack of concentration and sense of hopelessness, and I came across a post that referenced The Braverman Assessment Test. I took the test hoping that it would give me some objective data that I could use to build a stack but I am rather confused about how to interpret the data. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

My Results:

Dominant
Section 1A = 28 Dopamine Nature
Section 2A = 37 Acetylcholine Nature
Section 3A = 29 GABA Nature
Section 4A = 30 Serotonin Nature

Deficient
Section 1B = 6 Dopamine Nature
Section 2B = 9 Acetylcholine Nature
Section 3B = 16 GABA Nature
Section 4B = 11 Serotonin Nature

[graatch]

interpret it as ... pseudoscience

[sentinel]

Graatch,

When someone is making their first post and has taken the time to put together a detailed question , with background etc, do you not think it might be a little more welcoming and/or helpful to either point out why you think the BAT should not be taken as gospel or what aspects of it (if any) can be potentially used as areas for further expalnation, rather than cutting them down with a flippant, unsupported one-liner?

sentinel

[theta]

Initially my main concerns were a lack of concentration and feeling of hopelessness that began to grip me about two years ago. I turned to nootropics to help alleviate these two problems.

Sounds like symptoms of depression.

[graatch]

>do you not think it might be a little more welcoming and/or helpful

Get a grip. Other people can give more detailed responses -- maybe I'll give a response to his larger issues at some point later, as I do in numerous threads -- but the fact is, I have many better things to do than give detailed refutations to pseudoscientific self-help wankery every time someone comes out with it. Frankly, I'm tired of reading this "GABA deficient", "acetylcholine-deficient" crap everywhere. It can in fact be harmful -- such as in the case where someone with messed up memory starts taking stimulating, anxiety-increasing acetylcholine supplements when the real problem (this actually supported by numerous studies) is chronic stress or depression leading to atrophied hippocampal function.

As the monks would sometimes slap their students in order to bring them to a realization, sometimes a one-liner is the best thing possible to make someone examine their assumptions.

>unsupported

Unsupported my ass. "High 5-HT = causal of being a soldier or pilot? O RLY? Where's the proof?" Braverman sucks. He sucks because he has no proof, data, or scientific method whatsoever behind his conceptualizations and generalizations.

The catecholamine hypothesis of behavior/disorders was cool ... 60 years ago.

[sentinel]

That wasn't so hard now, was it.

[Mixter]

Section 1B = 6 Dopamine Nature
Section 2B = 9 Acetylcholine Nature
Section 3B = 16 GABA Nature
Section 4B = 11 Serotonin Nature

Regarding the discussion... it's true that "the brain is not soup". But if you take it not too strict, then read these deficits like "Dopamine=lack of motivation, ACh=lack of concentration/memory, GABA=anxiety/stress/erratic thinking, Serotonin=lack of joy/pleasure", it can hint toward a profile on which you can work.

Most depressive episodes start with exaggerated anxiety (with or without reason), so that is the first and most important thing to quench to mitigate/prevent depression. Before you get on medication to quench anxiety, try starting/increasing st.johns wort, ashwagandha, omega3's and other adaptogens, and yes, perhaps also GABA (=sleep aid). Give such things at least 2-3 weeks before evaluating improvement... the very simple but overlooked key is often (also in meaningful nootropics regimen) doing things consistently, regularly. Sleep 7-8h/day to give things a chance to work.

Short of any stimulants/medication, moderate lack of motivation is best dealt with regular exercise (just aerobics/long walks if you cannot do more, which also beats many other things including stress/anxiety and coincidentally increasing dopamine). Caffeine is a total no-no in this case (anxiety)... And regarding concentration/memory, things are more clear, we do know that cholinergics are often a big part of the solution.

[edscissorhands]

Thank you all for your responses. Graatch, I found it funny that you wrote " interpret it as ... pseudoscience" because I was originally going to call my post "Braverman Assessment Test - Any Validity?" because I wondered about how useful a True/False survey could be. Mixter, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that stress could be the root of the problem. My junior year in high school was one of the most stressful in my life, second only to my senior year! What can I say college applications are a bitch. As for your recommendations... I will look into Aswaganhda, St. John's Wart, and GABA. Can you point out any pertinent studies? With regards to caffeine: I am a regular drinker of green tea (~ 4 cups a day). I know the caffeine content is nothing like coffee but do you think I should hold off?

[eternaltraveler]

Braverman sucks. He sucks because he has no proof, data, or scientific method whatsoever behind his conceptualizations and generalizations.

this is true.

[abelard lindsay]

One thing about the Braverman assessment I find, after having given it to several people, is that often people have good neuro-chemistry with no deficiencies. IF you take the deficiency test regularly you can really get to know your brain very well.

I found the whole edge effect book to be one of the most important I've read in my entire life. Seriously, once you start understanding your moods in terms of neuro-chemistry and how supplements, etc interact with your neurochem, you'll never see the world the same way again. Now me and SO talk in terms of brain chemistry now.

"Honey, you have bad choline don't you? You're not paying attention to the outside world, you're too focused! Here have some choline!". "Dear, my dopamine sucks today, I just feel like lying around and watching tv today. Ok, I'll take some L-phenylalanine and I'll be in to doing things in a bit.". "Don't talk to me right now! My GABA is terrible!". "I feel silly today, must be good Serotonin.".

I think this is the way people will talk in the future. As Gibson said: "The future is here, it's just not evenly distributed yet".

This post may have seemed totally loopy and you all probably thought it was sarcasm but it's actually not. I actually live this way now and I'd say it's much better than I used to live. It is a bit disconcerting though. It's like the wonder people had at prozac times 4. Prozac for the first time permanently altered people's Serotonin and it had a undeniable impact on the way people though about sadness and happiness. Braverman is just expanding that to the other 3 main neuro-chemicals that represent different facets of mood.

[rebuild101]

Now me and SO talk in terms of brain chemistry now.

"Honey, you have bad choline don't you?  You're not paying attention to the outside world, you're too focused!  Here have some choline!".  "Dear, my dopamine sucks today, I just feel like lying around and watching tv today.  Ok, I'll take some L-phenylalanine and I'll be in to doing things in a bit.".  "Don't talk to me right now! My GABA is terrible!".  "I feel silly today, must be good Serotonin.".

lol =) Interesting point of view assuming you really are sincere here.


edscissorhands, do you know if caffeine makes you anxious, even in the slightest amount? That would be the only reason I would see to cut out caffeine by lowering the amount of green tea. Others here may hold a different opinion. But the fact that you have four cups of green tea (spread across the day?) is much better for you IMHO than one cup of coffee. I say that because the caffeine is spread more evenly instead of dumping huge amount all at once into your system.

[abelard lindsay]

Now me and SO talk in terms of brain chemistry now.

"Honey, you have bad choline don't you?  You're not paying attention to the outside world, you're too focused!  Here have some choline!".  "Dear, my dopamine sucks today, I just feel like lying around and watching tv today.  Ok, I'll take some L-phenylalanine and I'll be in to doing things in a bit.".  "Don't talk to me right now! My GABA is terrible!".  "I feel silly today, must be good Serotonin.".

lol =) Interesting point of view assuming you really are sincere here.

Yep. I am sincere. Modifying neuro-chemistry with the Braverman techniques is very interesting when you have someone else around to talk about it with. It adds a whole new dimension to inter-personal relationships. I was watching a Modern Marvels episode on the history channel and it was talking about how in the future people will describe their neuro-chemistry in personal ads to date more effectively. SO and I looked at each other and said "We already live like that".

Regarding caffeine... Caffeine increases dopamine release. After a while though the dopamine runs out and you get a dopamine crash which feels pretty lousy. I find supplementing with dopamine pre-cursors (Tyrosine / L-Phenylalanine) tends to allow me to drink more caffeine without getting a dopamine crash.

[7777]

@ abelard Linday : I'm just like you [lol] [lol]

[zoolander]

I wouldn't exactly throw the Braveman approach in the bun. It's a very loose guideline. For some people, doing the test and changing their lifestyles in line with these test may help. But as I said it's a very loose guideline.

I am not aware of any lab tests that directly measure neurotransmitter level balance.

[stillalive]

I think the Braverman Assessment Test is a good test but it isn't no all solution test. But especially the defience part will help you find where your problems are. If you only have small defiencies it can be missleading but with more serious defiencies it's easier to see patterns and draw conclusions from it. But i didn't find the dominance part to be good. It says what diffrent transmitters can do to you, but after reading personality theories I found it to be too simple and unsatisfactory to tell your personality.

But the best thing with the edge effect is that you learn how the diffrent transmitters affect us. That dopamine is for motivation, energy, sex, sertonine for optimistic thinking style and living in the moment and so on.

[graatch]

"Honey, you have bad choline don't you? You're not paying attention to the outside world, you're too focused! Here have some choline!". "Dear, my dopamine sucks today, I just feel like lying around and watching tv today. Ok, I'll take some L-phenylalanine and I'll be in to doing things in a bit.". "Don't talk to me right now! My GABA is terrible!". "I feel silly today, must be good Serotonin.".

*sigh* Reductionists.

[graatch]

Thank you all for your responses. Graatch, I found it funny that you wrote " interpret it as ... pseudoscience" because I was originally going to call my post "Braverman Assessment Test - Any Validity?" because I wondered about how useful a True/False survey could be. Mixter, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that stress could be the root of the problem. My junior year in high school was one of the most stressful in my life, second only to my senior year! What can I say college applications are a bitch. As for your recommendations... I will look into Aswaganhda, St. John's Wart, and GABA. Can you point out any pertinent studies? With regards to caffeine: I am a regular drinker of green tea (~ 4 cups a day). I know the caffeine content is nothing like coffee but do you think I should hold off?

I think those are decent options, but really things like ashwagandha or DHEA which improve stress resistance/help rebuild hippocampal function aren't going to be the thing if you don't deal with the thing that's overloading you with stress in the first place.

ScottL wrote some really excellent articles on M&M which you might find helpful:

http://www.mindandmu...ID=30&pageNum=1

Also, meditation. In the 15 minutes it takes for oral medication to take effect you can seriously get major results, and the neuroplastic changes over time cause you to be less stressed generally, and improve focus (an actual, physical thickening of certain areas of the brain associated with attention has been witnessed):

http://www.mindandmu...showtopic=31061

[mentatpsi]

First off, graatch awesome posts, especially the last, there is not only the flaw with braverman that you speak of, but attaching yourself to a lack in something can also be flawed, supplementation for a momentarily state of mind and attaching the value of low levels of Serotonin or low levels of dopamine to an identity creates a great desire to fix states that may be transient. What ever happened to mind training, it's best not to rely too heavily on supplementation to do the job for you, especially those that do all the job for you (train the will to train the mind), and also not to attach oneself to fixed notions of identity, when one says that motivation is low, you shouldn't just refer it to a lack of dopamine, it may be the result of a crisis, perhaps instead of treating the brain as a simple machines with neurotransmitters as the mechanism of projecting energy, look at emotional and mental states as a relay system designed to show the need for manipulation of daily life styles (dietary, behavioral, cognitions, etc). In the end don't become dependent on a pill to make change, but try to find change within...

most importantly thought patterns such as low levels of dopamine take supplementation... leads to addictive like behaviors (especially with dopamine).

[7777]

*sigh* Reductionists.

Now YOU're reductionist : you're using 1 little one to qualify us. [lol] [lol] Don't be so incoherent with your own ideas please [lol] [lol]

Edited by 7777, 11 November 2007 - 01:16 PM.

[abelard lindsay]

What ever happened to mind training, it's best not to rely too heavily on supplementation to do the job for you, especially those that do all the job for you (train the will to train the mind), and also not to attach oneself to fixed notions of identity, when one says that motivation is low, you shouldn't just refer it to a lack of dopamine, it may be the result of a crisis, perhaps instead of treating the brain as a simple machines with neurotransmitters as the mechanism of projecting energy, look at emotional and mental states as a relay system designed to show the need for manipulation of daily life styles (dietary, behavioral, cognitions, etc). In the end don't become dependent on a pill to make change, but try to find change within...

I have read many many self help books, studied cognitive-behavioral techniques, tried meditation, exercise. If your brain is perfect. good for you. However, some people do not have perfect brain chemistry. It does not mean they're crazy or suicidally depressed. It's just that always something feels a little bit wrong. Whether it be being unmotivated or too motivated, scatterbrained with a lousy short term memory, grumpy for no reason, sad for no reason. It is the most easy thing to have good brain chemistry and tell a depressed , scatterbrained, unmotivated, grumpy person to cheer up or exercise. Even for me, when I am happy it's impossible for me to imagine being sad. When I'm sad it's impossible to imagine being happy. Thankfully Prozac has demonstrated to the world, at least in the case of serotonin's relationship to happiness, that some facets of mood and personality are chemical. Yet people still don't believe people who are sad should be made happy because it's "unnatural" and that their happiness is not "real". In fact some people think that people who feel "better than well" on Prozac should not be allowed to take it. This seems to me to be a purely metaphysical argument, not based on wanting to help but on not wanting to violate sacred assumptions about personality and mood. I wasted a lot of my life with crappy brain chemistry because I thought taking anything but a multi-vitamin could only be a negative thing. How could a supplement improve on what I was naturally given?

When I arrived in my late 20s I decided that I had to do something to fix my head because I had lived to long with all kinds of useless thought patterns. My diaries would repeat and go around in the same circles over and over again. Why can't I organize myself? Why do I struggle over and over again with time management and fail? Why do I worry endlessly about things that will never happen? Why am I so capricious? Why do I get depressed so often for no reason? Everyone says I'm a smart guy, I should be able to figure it out right? Then I started taking Piracetam and the transformation was miraculous. A while later I read Braverman's Edge Effect which was like the next level of well being. It gave me an understanding -- a road map to my brain that has been invaluable.

At first, I told a few close friends I trust about all this. They either changed the subject or point blank refused to believe it was real and said that it was all psycho-somatic. I never brought it up again.

[pezzonovante]

What ever happened to mind training, it's best not to rely too heavily on supplementation to do the job for you, especially those that do all the job for you (train the will to train the mind), and also not to attach oneself to fixed notions of identity, when one says that motivation is low, you shouldn't just refer it to a lack of dopamine, it may be the result of a crisis, perhaps instead of treating the brain as a simple machines with neurotransmitters as the mechanism of projecting energy, look at emotional and mental states as a relay system designed to show the need for manipulation of daily life styles (dietary, behavioral, cognitions, etc). In the end don't become dependent on a pill to make change, but try to find change within...

I have read many many self help books, studied cognitive-behavioral techniques, tried meditation, exercise. If your brain is perfect. good for you. However, some people do not have perfect brain chemistry. It does not mean they're crazy or suicidally depressed. It's just that always something feels a little bit wrong. Whether it be being unmotivated or too motivated, scatterbrained with a lousy short term memory, grumpy for no reason, sad for no reason. It is the most easy thing to have good brain chemistry and tell a depressed , scatterbrained, unmotivated, grumpy person to cheer up or exercise. Even for me, when I am happy it's impossible for me to imagine being sad. When I'm sad it's impossible to imagine being happy. Thankfully Prozac has demonstrated to the world, at least in the case of serotonin's relationship to happiness, that some facets of mood and personality are chemical. Yet people still don't believe people who are sad should be made happy because it's "unnatural" and that their happiness is not "real". In fact some people think that people who feel "better than well" on Prozac should not be allowed to take it. This seems to me to be a purely metaphysical argument, not based on wanting to help but on not wanting to violate sacred assumptions about personality and mood. I wasted a lot of my life with crappy brain chemistry because I thought taking anything but a multi-vitamin could only be a negative thing. How could a supplement improve on what I was naturally given?

When I arrived in my late 20s I decided that I had to do something to fix my head because I had lived to long with all kinds of useless thought patterns. My diaries would repeat and go around in the same circles over and over again. Why can't I organize myself? Why do I struggle over and over again with time management and fail? Why do I worry endlessly about things that will never happen? Why am I so capricious? Why do I get depressed so often for no reason? Everyone says I'm a smart guy, I should be able to figure it out right? Then I started taking Piracetam and the transformation was miraculous. A while later I read Braverman's Edge Effect which was like the next level of well being. It gave me an understanding -- a road map to my brain that has been invaluable.

At first, I told a few close friends I trust about all this. They either changed the subject or point blank refused to believe it was real and said that it was all psycho-somatic. I never brought it up again.

Well said. I completely agree. Though I feel that Braverman's approach is oversimplified, it is the only solution we have to a very complex puzzle we are only beginning to understand.

[mentatpsi]

I am very two sided when it comes to issues concerning emotions, if depression is extreme and thoughts of suicide are common then there should be biological intervention, i agree. But i myself had moments of depression, though yes it maybe marked by low levels of serotonin, and sure one can augment this through taking prozac or 5-HTP, i feel that life is best enjoyed through the great array of emotions that we are given, and prozac gives too much of a balance to it.

I found myself training quite often my ability to be an observer, to become rational when it came to emotions, always looking at two different perspectives to question the validity of the emotion, and as time progressed and exposed to intense joy, I was able to sustain levels of higher emotional well being by cognitive means, through listening to music and being more in the moment. Prozac is not the only solution to poor mood states, and when it comes to brain modifications one should be careful upon augmentation, especially when there are other methods to attain the same desired effect. Either way, to each their own.