78 replies to this topic

[PWAIN]

gashinshotan,

Perfection is much easier to achieve when you control all the variables. You don't seem to be very ambitious to me. Throw in human relationships and things become much harder.

People with asbergers/aspergers appear to be able to have higher IQ's at the expense of skills in human interaction. Removing a hugely complex bit of mental processing frees up an area of the brain for other functions. This does not equate to perfection but rather a shifting of focus. If we could only get computers to make small talk.....

Resvhead

[EmbraceUnity]

wow. One word misspelled and now everything I posted is voided.

Gashinshotan,

I think it was your promotion of genocide against Chinese people in the World War 3 thread that made you lose most of your credibility. I suggest you talk to a psychologist or a psychiatrist to correct whatever vicious cognitive feedback loops or chemical imbalances are causing your misanthropy.

Edited by progressive, 04 December 2007 - 02:08 AM.

[Shannon Vyff]

girls want men that are good hearted, responsible, caring, intelligent and respectful... dominance does not work for a man, all of the time... sometimes altruism gets him farther. I'd be bored if my man was a pushover, and at the same time I'd be upset if he never listened to my wants and needs.

so, I guess it is just that I know a lot of single women--with children and without, and they complain that they can never find good men--it is true that being in a relationship takes time, but with some basic skills and rules I think most can find relationship bliss--something that is shown to benefit longevity

[wydell]

so, I guess it is just that I know a lot of single women--with children and without, and they complain that they can never find good men--it is true that being in a relationship takes time, but with some basic skills and rules I think most can find relationship bliss--something that is shown to benefit longevity

Hi Shannon:

Maybe folks can maintain non-platonic relationships with very good skills and rules, but my guess is that the overwhelming majority of such relationships are failures. I base that on speculation, my own experiences, and talking to others. If you know basic rules for success that work, you should write another book. You might be a best seller.

I figure about 50% divorce rate and my guess is that 50% of married couples that remain together have serious problems or serious unhapiness. And I am not taking into account failures in non-married relationships (which I guess would be higher). Again, this is just from my own experience and talking with others. I really don't have data to back this up. Now are good relationships possible? Sure. Would I be scared to get married without a prenup or to have a child based on pure odds? Yes.


But married couples do seem to live longer, so I am all for it . . . cautiously.

[REGIMEN]

Is there anything else you want or need to hear? Positing such a naive question for which you've already developed a reasonable answer seems pointless. Quit fishing for sympathy and own your convictions.

[gashinshotan]

I still haven't received any arguments for relationships. Come on! WHY do we need relationships when most of them and hindrances and fail? That's all I'm asking.

[REGIMEN]

Edited by liplex, 12 December 2007 - 07:26 AM.

[StrangeAeons]

Gashintoshan;
I speak as one who has been intermittently diagnosed with personality disorders, including the Cluster A. Perhaps you should look into the cognition of a schizoid personality; there are actually schizoids who have posted advocacy on the internet of their nature being a way of life and not a disorder. Irony abounds, though; why would the schizoid feel the need to justify themselves in the first place?
I say this all tongue in cheek. Humans are a social animal; we "get something" out of personal relationships. It is ultimately in our nature to do so, from a survival standpoint and (by evolutionary logic) consequentially from an emotional standpoint. Welcome to the species. As highly intelligent beings we can point our intellect inwards and outwards and "break" the things around us, invoking disillusionment under the pretense of self-improvement. To do is not merely harmful to the self emotionally, it is also fallacy. There is validity to our need to seek out others, there is validity to our need to have acceptance. It is possible for others to influence you, to make your stray from your values; but if you have convictions that you truly maintain, and find friends who truly respect you (NOT to be confused with friends who share or respect your convictions, but those who respect you as a whole), you should not feel compromised.
Beware you do not make yourself miserably with idealizations of what you should be; the absolute, unrelenting pursuit of perfection without acknowledgment of your humanity will only result in a total decompensation. Yes, people will disappoint you, distract you, frustrate you, -- even hurt you; but compared to the existential loneliness of utter hermitude, it seems a worthwhile price.

[RighteousReason]

If you don't want to get with a girl just to get laid, you're a latent homo

That's got to be one of the stupidest comments that I have read for a long time. IMO, I thing that this thread has really gone done hill with the sort of comments that both Gashinshotan and caston have been making. You are talking about developing relationships with other people but from what I have read so far it appears that you are both homophobes and think nothing of women apart from using them as a piece of meat to satisfy your own selfish lustful fantasies. You are both your own worst enemies. It's no wonder you find it hard to form meaningful relationships. Have a little respect for yourself and the people that you interact with.

The best thing both of you can do right now is to take a little advice from a decent grounded bloke like me.

Nah, Gash is right in a way. There is some kind of screw loose up there if you know what I mean.

[stargazer]

I can't believe some of you guys. You look at relationships as if they're just means to an end. I thought that the transhumanist movement contained people more inclined to care about others than the general population do. I was wrong. I don't enter relationships because I gain something from the counter-part, I enter relationships because I CARE about the person. This is, ofcourse, a mere biological construct of our brains, created in order to increase our likelyhood of survival. The fact that it is indeed an instinct does not make it less valuable than other traits. Ponder the irrational thinking of rationalizing feelings in order to achieve one's ambitions when in fact the concept of ambition also is merely a biological construct made to increase survival.

Since socializing and ambition both are instincts, one cannot say that a feeling is more valuable than another based on "rationality" since there's nothing rational about living. There's no reason for your life, and there never will be. Relationships are not "pointless" because that implies that there somehow is a "point" in not engaging in them, which is to arrive at a logical fallacy. To me it seems like alot of people here have problems feeling the emotions that come from social interaction and confusing it with the idea that there really is not any worth in relationships other than the benefits that spring from them (power, status, influence). You could say that it's like being color blind or having some other perceptual loss that makes you unable to witness all the facetts that is life.

[FunkOdyssey]

To me it seems like alot of people here have problems feeling the emotions that come from social interaction and confusing it with the idea that there really is not any worth in relationships other than the benefits that spring from them (power, status, influence). You could say that it's like being color blind or having some other perceptual loss that makes you unable to witness all the facetts that is life.

That is definitely a possibility. I also suggest that some of these derogatory opinions toward relationships are formed when people find themselves unable to develop successful relationships, and the rationalization process begins in order to protect self-esteem ("I don't really want/need any connection with other human beings anyway").

[bandit]

"I can't believe some of you guys. You look at relationships as if they're just means to an end." Look at you, can't accept the consequences of making sane decisions? "construct of our brains, created in order to increase our likelyhood of survival. The fact that it is indeed an instinct does not make it less valuable than other traits." The fact that you cannot define "value" in a realistic way is not a good thing. "I thought that the transhumanist movement contained people more inclined to care about others than the general population do. " You were exactly RIGHT. Welcome to our crushingly narrow existence. "Ponder the irrational thinking of rationalizing feelings in order to achieve one's ambitions when in fact the concept of ambition also is merely a biological construct made to increase survival." Ever think about the rationality of *basing* your feelings on reality and morality? "There's no reason for your life, and there never will be." Ponder your own rationalizations before you call mine irrational. That's as irrational as it gets. I'm sorry. "Relationships are not "pointless" because that implies that there somehow is a "point" in not engaging in them, which is to arrive at a logical fallacy." Interesting point. Please tell me which logical fallacy that is (or just think about what you just said for five minutes). " To me it seems like alot of people here have problems feeling the emotions that come from social interaction and confusing it with the idea that there really is not any worth in relationships. You could say that it's like being color blind or having some other perceptual loss that makes you unable to witness all the facetts that is life." I'm not afflicted with any absense of any part of the vast array of different feelings in personal relationships, or in any way inexperienced in having a long vibrant social life with many personal relationships, or in any way ignorant of every last one of the terrific benefits that are offered.

[bandit]

"I can't believe some of you guys. You look at relationships as if they're just means to an end." Look at you, can't accept the consequences of making sane decisions? "construct of our brains, created in order to increase our likelyhood of survival. The fact that it is indeed an instinct does not make it less valuable than other traits." The fact that you cannot define "value" in a realistic way is not a good thing. "I thought that the transhumanist movement contained people more inclined to care about others than the general population do. " You were exactly RIGHT. Welcome to our crushingly narrow existence. "Ponder the irrational thinking of rationalizing feelings in order to achieve one's ambitions when in fact the concept of ambition also is merely a biological construct made to increase survival." Ever think about the rationality of *basing* your feelings on reality and morality? "There's no reason for your life, and there never will be." Ponder your own rationalizations before you call mine irrational. That's as irrational as it gets. I'm sorry. "Relationships are not "pointless" because that implies that there somehow is a "point" in not engaging in them, which is to arrive at a logical fallacy." Interesting point. Please tell me which logical fallacy that is (or just think about what you just said for five minutes). " To me it seems like alot of people here have problems feeling the emotions that come from social interaction and confusing it with the idea that there really is not any worth in relationships. You could say that it's like being color blind or having some other perceptual loss that makes you unable to witness all the facetts that is life." I'm not afflicted with any absense of any part of the vast array of different feelings in personal relationships, or in any way inexperienced in having a long vibrant social life with many personal relationships, or in any way ignorant of every last one of the terrific benefits that are offered.

In fact those benefits are addicting and deadly IMO

[rgvandewalker]

I just finished reading the whole thread at one sitting.

I think good relationships are precious. Nothing is more valuable or harder to find and grow. The very fact that most people seem like obstacles points out how precious good relationships can be.

Developing good relationships is a Major Life Skill, definitely worthy of a merit badge, or something. Giving up is not a -worthy- answer to the challenge.

It's extremely logical, guys: The place to look for good relationships is among people who value them.

If you care for a relational person, they will notice, raise your priority in their life, and aid your goals. The way I got my first marriage proposal was by helping the girl. She was a very young shop girl, impoverished (she worked in retail) extremely pretty but with bad teeth (from years of parental neglect). I took her to USC's dental school for charity dental work for six weeks, and she fell in love with me and proposed (boy was I surprised!) The way I learned to love my wife was that she drove her old clunker 40 miles one day to rescue me when I was barely an acquaintance.

I'm naturally introverted. I find a lot of social contact exhausting. So much so that I have very few friends. But I eventually learned to just take time for myself when I need it. Even extremely extreme extraverts sometimes need time alone; they understand. One can just ask for it with any sensible person, and get time away. If they won't let you get away, they don't care about you, right?

Since my social time is limited, I prioritize for value: 1. My wife, kids, and extended family (in order). 2. Friends. 3. Good organizations.

This 'aiding goals' stuff is a reciprocal deal. So, if you never take an interest in a relational person, they will notice, and lower your priority. If the friend, of whatever sex, never asks you about yourself, then you know that they aren't interested in you, or in aiding your goals. Be polite! Do what they want: Lower their priority in your life.

Another thing that really helped me (I'm extremely logical) was learning to recognize Meyers-Briggs personality types on the fly. I read a book, "Please Understand Me", and was blown away, not least because I have one of the rarest personality types, and I discovered that I am normal. I then later found a book "The Art of Speed-Reading People" that explains, scientifically, how to recognize M-B personailty types on the fly. The combination gave me a lot of insight, and a great ability to recognise social conditions, and therefore improvise in them. There's three basic strategies that are moral: Friendship Development, Mutual Utilization and Escape. These can all be affectionate.

Look for organizations that promote good relationships. There's an entire, very large religion based on the idea of glorifying God via good relationships: Christianity. Why not get some human irrationality working -for- you, for a change?

I'd encourage you to never burn bridges. People have often surprised me, and perhaps they could surprise you, as well.

[RighteousReason]

As a veteran of this thread...

gashinshotan, I found an interesting book that you may find useful (and any other "hard cases" like us):


http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/1568381603

Edited by Savage, 06 May 2008 - 03:23 AM.

[forever freedom]

Ah too bad i missed this thread from the beggining. Anyways, my take on the matter is that either if you don't care about emotions and don't want relationships just for the sake of it, having the skills to form and maintain relationships is always a useful thing, either if you want to increase the chances of success in your career or if you just want a nice social circle.

I also thought that attending social events and participating in social situations was useless but i realized that i need to go to them as much as i can, if nothing else, to just develop my social skills further. After all, they are skills, and the best way to develop it is through practice. No amount of theorical books is going to substitute a good bag of experience in one's back. Unfortunately i learned it the hard way.

[John_Ventureville]

This thread reminded me of a nineteen year-old guy I spoke with in the ImmInst chatroom who said he could not wait to "get rid of his meat!" In the mainstream world this could make someone wonder, "what the hell?," but I realized he meant the desire to have his mind uploaded into a computer.

Gashintoshan brought up a question much more mundane, and yet one I have seen many other young Transumanists think hard about. And I consider the answers given by the people here generally excellent. He (and all of us...) must take responsibility for our happiness, find the strength to mainly associate/socialize with high quality people, and realize we are at least up to a point, social animals. You sure don't have to be a Transumanist to have these concerns, I have known people going to school to become lawyers, doctors, etc., and they were not going to focus on their "social life" until they had their degrees and chosen careers. They felt at that point they would have the social currency to get with the kind of women they desired.

I wonder if in time we will see the equivalent of Transhumanist/Unitarian monasteries. Lectures and academic endeavors, meditation, yoga, healthy nutritional and life extension practices, etc., could all be part of the program. I see a need for such a thing for the young (and older) Transhumanists looking to "fully find themselves."

As I read over the thread I kept on thinking, "there is a movie script in here..." lol

John Grigg

[forever freedom]

But some people have said (when they were near the end of their life) they didn't have regrets about the money they didn't make or other material stuff or accolades they didn't have; but they did regret the connections with people they didn't make or keep. We are social animals. Some people are driven b/c of a loved ones health problem, for example. Sometimes the love of a spouse (or children) drives a person to acheive great things too. What (or who) inspires you to be driven? We all need emotional support. That's what friends and family provide.

Some are more social, some need less social contact. I think that balance is the way to go. Balance in a way that if you need to sacrifice for a period of time one of these (either career/money/success/whatever or your social life in general) you can do it without major problems, but only for a period of time without completely neglecting the other. I think that extremes here aren't healthy. You can't be entirely successful/happy without a social life the same way that you can't be entirely happy/successful (in life) without any money or independence.

But of course if i had to choose one of both extremes i would certainly choose the career/money driven path. If i had that, bulding a social circle would not be as hard as if i had many friends yet would have to start my professional life from zero (unless i was a hot chick and knew many rich guys who wanted to marry me).