51 replies to this topic

[lunarsolarpower]

Actually I don't think I know anyone personally that believes in god anymore. I guess that would different if I lived in the US!

Different indeed! I would say my situation is nearly diametrically opposite to yours.

[braz]

The reason why people think that faith deserves respect, is because faith is the most/ one of the most important things in a believer's life. Therefore, if you bash on it, you are most likely to create a great conflict with the faith's practitioner. Generally, it's in our genes and our education to avoid unncessary conflicts. Stay away from talking about one's faith, and stay away from making enemies! Voila, everybody's happy! Ehh, not really...

Good post braz. This is true. Do you think that bashing an atheist's faith in the absence of faith would cause conflict as well?

Thanks. No, I don't think so. An atheist's faith is different from religious faith in the context that it's based on solid scientific evidence, logic, and reason. In order to bash on an atheist's faith, one must present some solid scientific evidence that would greatly undermine atheism. So far nobody had been successful in doing so.

[platypus]

Why doesn't God tell those "counterfeit chritians" that they are wrong? Many of them communicate with their God in the same or better way as "real" christians do. Similar personal communication with the exact same deity also happens within Judaism, why hasn't Jahve/Jehova told those pious jews that they are actually currently wrong?

That's what the book of Revelation and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ is all about. It's the putting away of the counterfeit Christianity and replacing it with the true version. See, for example, http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/RV/.

Yeah, but why does the Judeo-Christian God happily talk to those counterfeit folks during prayer and even answer to their prayers? As far as I can tell there are pious Jews in direct contact with God through prayer but God has not bothered to brief them in on the recent developments. How can this be explained?

Edited by platypus, 06 January 2008 - 11:18 PM.

[william7]

Yeah, but why does the Judeo-Christian God happily talk to those counterfeit folks during prayer and even answer to their prayers? As far as I can tell there are pious Jews in direct contact with God through prayer but God has not bothered to brief them in on the recent developments. How can this be explained?

Are you sure it's the real God of the Bible that talks to those folks and answers their prayers? Those people might be sham artists or have a wicked spirit talking to them.

The reason God hasn't briefed them is because He currently is applying a hands off policy on world affairs so we can learn a valuable lesson about pain and suffering. After we've learned our lesson, He will send Jesus Christ to straighten matters out and set up the Kingdom of God on earth for the Millennium. See, for example, http://www.gnmagazin...S/whysuffer.htm and http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/GK/

[william7]

Ah, good old book of Revelations. My favorite part is where everybody dies.

Not everybody dies though. Just the wicked who refuse to live according to God's law and Christ's teachings. I think 1/3 or 2/3s of the world's population dies as a result of the plagues and disasters mentioned in the book of Revelation. Checkout, http://www.gnmagazin.../population.htm, in regards to "The Population Explosion and Prophecy." Very interesting reading if you can get up on it.

As to the topic at hand, it's important to remember that there are different kinds of faith, and the word isn't reserved exclusively for religion.

I believe that faith as in "belief with no proof" can be justifiable in situations where science either can't be or hasn't been yet applied, as long as the person acknowledges that his faith is his opinion only and not an objective fact.

Examples of faith can be:
"Faith" in a person.
"Faith" in a philosophy.
"Faith" in a political party.
"Faith" in a morality system.
"Faith" in technologies that will bring indefinite lifespans.

As you can see, there are much more positive aspects of faith than negative. Just because a single system based on faith is malignant, doesn't mean that all faith is bad.

Makes a lot of sense to me. I have faith that Christian Communism will prevail and prove to be the solution to the technological singularity problem.

[william7]

An interesting article, I have enjoyed reading it. I admit that I've been interested in eschatology since I was a child.

I am curious, when do you believe the second coming will happen?

Nobody knows the day or the hour only the Father. Matthew 24:36; Acts 1:6-7. But, we're instructed by Scripture to live our lives as if the day of the Lord is very near. See, for example, Matthew 24:42-44; 25:13; Revelation 1:1-3.

Of course, by our time frame Christ's return may be some years in the future. By God's time frame, however; the day is near as the prophecy says.

Some say the tsunami in the Indian Ocean fulfilled Jesus Christ's prophecy in Luke 21:25 that says "the ... nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea" and is only "the beginning of sorrows." See http://www.gnmagazin...n57/tsunami.htm for an excellent read on the subject.

I believe we're probably into the beginning stages of the "great tribulation" mentioned in Revelation 7:9-17 where a great multitude finally learn how to put Jesus Christ's teachings into practice and receive a substantial amount of assistance and protection from God in the process. If people put Christian Communism into the fullest possible practice today, they could get a taste of the Kingdom of God before Jesus Christ's second coming and not be touched by the plagues and disasters prophesied to occur before His return.

Edited by elijah3, 07 January 2008 - 11:44 AM.

[platypus]

Yeah, but why does the Judeo-Christian God happily talk to those counterfeit folks during prayer and even answer to their prayers? As far as I can tell there are pious Jews in direct contact with God through prayer but God has not bothered to brief them in on the recent developments. How can this be explained?

Are you sure it's the real God of the Bible that talks to those folks and answers their prayers? Those people might be sham artists or have a wicked spirit talking to them.

Pretty sure, if those people cannot trust their experiences of God, neither can you!

The reason God hasn't briefed them is because He currently is applying a hands off policy on world affairs so we can learn a valuable lesson about pain and suffering. After we've learned our lesson, He will send Jesus Christ to straighten matters out and set up the Kingdom of God on earth for the Millennium. See, for example, http://www.gnmagazin...S/whysuffer.htm and http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/GK/

Other plausible explanation is that he does not exist.

[william7]

Pretty sure, if those people cannot trust their experiences of God, neither can you!

As long as I stick by the rules the Bible sets out, I'm safe. Those people you mention have, in most cases I'm sure, made up their own rules in contravention to the rules God has set up. As a result, they become susceptible to evil and lying spirits.

Other plausible explanation is that he does not exist.

See http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/GE/, and http://www.beyondtod...ProgramID=bt015, and http://www.beyondtod...ProgramID=bt054.

[platypus]

Pretty sure, if those people cannot trust their experiences of God, neither can you!

As long as I stick by the rules the Bible sets out, I'm safe. Those people you mention have, in most cases I'm sure, made up their own rules in contravention to the rules God has set up. As a result, they become susceptible to evil and lying spirits.

That's impossible because they've interpreted the Bible in the guidance of the Holy Sprit and many of those people communicate with God frequently. What do you base your interpretation of the Bible on and how do you know that evil spirits were not involved?

[william7]

That's impossible because they've interpreted the Bible in the guidance of the Holy Sprit and many of those people communicate with God frequently.

Whose "they've"? Without knowing who "they" are, I can't really say what spirit is guiding them.

The apostle John instructs us not to believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God. 1 John 4:1. I can't do any testing like John instructs unless you produce the individual(s) claiming to be under God's Holy Spirit.

What do you base your interpretation of the Bible on and how do you know that evil spirits were not involved?

Hey, I'm not just one of your average fly by night wannabees. I'm trying to put into practice the full program taught by Jesus Christ so we can put the technology of the future to good and righteous use and live out greater lifespans and conquer death.

[platypus]

That's impossible because they've interpreted the Bible in the guidance of the Holy Sprit and many of those people communicate with God frequently.

Whose "they've"? Without knowing who "they" are, I can't really say what spirit is guiding them.

The apostle John instructs us not to believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God. 1 John 4:1. I can't do any testing like John instructs unless you produce the individual(s) claiming to be under God's Holy Spirit.

Who would be stupid enough to call themselves Christians and not "test the spirits"?? Let's take Mormons for example, have you got evidence that they don't "test the spirits"? Anyway, many Mormons claim connection with God and the Holy Spirit, their God answers prayers etc.

And how about jews with a connection to the Christian god JVH? Are you claiming their connection is fake?

What do you base your interpretation of the Bible on and how do you know that evil spirits were not involved?

Hey, I'm not just one of your average fly by night wannabees. I'm trying to put into practice the full program taught by Jesus Christ so we can put the technology of the future to good and righteous use and live out greater lifespans and conquer death.

Yes, but what do you base your interpretation of the Bible upon? What makes you thikn that "Christian Communism" is somehow a central teaching of the Bible, or relevant at all?

[william7]

Who would be stupid enough to call themselves Christians and not "test the spirits"?? Let's take Mormons for example, have you got evidence that they don't "test the spirits"? Anyway, many Mormons claim connection with God and the Holy Spirit, their God answers prayers etc.

And how about jews with a connection to the Christian god JVH? Are you claiming their connection is fake?

Generally, all organized religions such as the Mormons and Judaism are doing something fundamentally in opposition to the Scriptures. They may refuse to keep the correct Holy Days as commanded and practice pagan holidays in there place, listen to false prophets who lead them astray, or reject Jesus Christ and His teachings in some way. This is not to say that there are not individuals within these organized religions who are making strong efforts to live righteously and who sincerely pray to God and receive answers.

Yes, but what do you base your interpretation of the Bible upon? What makes you thikn that "Christian Communism" is somehow a central teaching of the Bible, or relevant at all?

Have you ever read the Christian Communism II thread I linked you to above? I explain that in there. You'll notice that others share my belief in this regard as well.

[platypus]

Who would be stupid enough to call themselves Christians and not "test the spirits"?? Let's take Mormons for example, have you got evidence that they don't "test the spirits"? Anyway, many Mormons claim connection with God and the Holy Spirit, their God answers prayers etc.

And how about jews with a connection to the Christian god JVH? Are you claiming their connection is fake?

Generally, all organized religions such as the Mormons and Judaism are doing something fundamentally in opposition to the Scriptures. They may refuse to keep the correct Holy Days as commanded and practice pagan holidays in there place, listen to false prophets who lead them astray, or reject Jesus Christ and His teachings in some way. This is not to say that there are not individuals within these organized religions who are making strong efforts to live righteously and who sincerely pray to God and receive answers.

So what if JHV and the Holy Spirit don't complain when in communication with those people? I'm 100% sure they "test" their spirits at least as well as you.

Yes, but what do you base your interpretation of the Bible upon? What makes you think that "Christian Communism" is somehow a central teaching of the Bible, or relevant at all?

Have you ever read the Christian Communism II thread I linked you to above? I explain that in there. You'll notice that others share my belief in this regard as well.

So has JHV or the Holy Spirit told some of you that your beliefs are ok? What about groups who believe differently but who get similar approval?

[william7]

So what if JHV and the Holy Spirit don't complain when in communication with those people?

So has JHV or the Holy Spirit told some of you that your beliefs are ok? What about groups who believe differently but who get similar approval?

Then it's probably not God's Holy Spirit. God's Holy Spirit is sent to show Christians their errors and teach them how to overcome them. There are no perfect churches with perfect, sinless people right now. This is why Malachi asks who can endure the day of His coming? Who can stand when He apopears? Malachi 3:2.

This is what the Scriptures say about the Holy Spirit:

"All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." - John 14:25-26

"But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment" - John 16:7-8

So, if any of these churches or the people in them try to tell you that they receive a message of approval from God through His Holy Spirit it is likely they're lying or it is a lying spirit and not God's Holy Spirit that's speaking to them. God is not happy with the world and the churches in it right now and there are other Scriptures that say this too.

[platypus]

So what if JHV and the Holy Spirit don't complain when in communication with those people?

So has JHV or the Holy Spirit told some of you that your beliefs are ok? What about groups who believe differently but who get similar approval?

Then it's probably not God's Holy Spirit. God's Holy Spirit is sent to show Christians their errors and teach them how to overcome them. There are no perfect churches with perfect, sinless people right now.

If it says, feels and appears to be the God/Holy Sprit, and passes the test, it must be the God/Holy Spirit, right? If you don't believe in this, the basis of your religion falls off as nobody could trust anyone. Also nobody is perfect so God could not "talk" to anybody. Without doubt there are scores of people who are convinced that the Christian God is talking to them, and some of those people are Mormons, Jews, Christians that you would not approve etc.

So, if any of these churches or the people in them try to tell you that they receive a message of approval from God through His Holy Spirit it is likely they're lying or it is a lying spirit and not God's Holy Spirit that's speaking to them. God is not happy with the world and the churches in it right now and there are other Scriptures that say this too.

Those people are not lying, they genuinely believe they have a spiritual connection to God/Holy Spirit. As their connection passed your "test", it must be real.

[william7]

If it says, feels and appears to be the God/Holy Sprit, and passes the test, it must be the God/Holy Spirit, right?

Yes, it has to pass the biblical test. If it doesn't, it's something else.

If you don't believe in this, the basis of your religion falls off as nobody could trust anyone.

Nope. If understood and applied correctly, the biblical test for testing the spirit will bring uniformity, harmony and trust. Christians need to be of one heart and mind on these matters. Acts 4:32.

Also nobody is perfect so God could not "talk" to anybody.

We must be having one of those "breakdowns in communications" here. I just explained and provided biblical references above indicating that God's Holy Spirit is a "Counselor" and this is the type of work it does. I don't believe I've ever said God does not speak through His Holy Spirit to imperfect people. If that were the case, He would've only spoke to Jesus Christ. None of the patriarchs, prophets or apostles of the Bible were perfect. All had sinned as the Scriptures indicate. The apostle John says:

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives." 1 John 1:8-10

Without doubt there are scores of people who are convinced that the Christian God is talking to them, and some of those people are Mormons, Jews, Christians that you would not approve etc.

God may be talking to certain individuals within the Mormon and Jewish faith, but I doubt He speaks to the leaders of these religions and I know He doesn't approve of the doctrines and practices of these religions as they're clearly in contradiction to what the Bible says.

Those people are not lying, they genuinely believe they have a spiritual connection to God/Holy Spirit.

Are you talking about certain people within a particular organization or the group as a whole?

[Alien65]

I don't think faith, in and of itself, deserves any respect. However, people (faithful or otherwise) do. If some people value comfort higher than objective truth, they have a right to that decision and whatever irrational beliefs come along with it. I just wish I could figure out a way to stop them from imposing their arbitrary value systems on everyone else.

Couldn't say it better my self.

[platypus]

If it says, feels and appears to be the God/Holy Sprit, and passes the test, it must be the God/Holy Spirit, right?

Yes, it has to pass the biblical test. If it doesn't, it's something else.

And if it passes it's the real thing?

Without doubt there are scores of people who are convinced that the Christian God is talking to them, and some of those people are Mormons, Jews, Christians that you would not approve etc.

God may be talking to certain individuals within the Mormon and Jewish faith, but I doubt He speaks to the leaders of these religions and I know He doesn't approve of the doctrines and practices of these religions as they're clearly in contradiction to what the Bible says.

Maybe the Bible is outdated and the Mormons have the latest revelations?

[william7]

And if it passes it's the real thing?

Yup

Maybe the Bible is outdated and the Mormons have the latest revelations?

The Bible is never outdated. I've looked at the book of Mormon and could not see anything relevant in it.

[nefastor]

This video rocks. I wish I had made it myself. I'll go presidential here : "I am Nefastor, and I endorse this message."

Any belief system that has led to scientists being tortured and killed, other people being tortured and killed because of conflicting beliefs, used "holy scripture" as a means of material enrichment, tortured for the sake of torture, banned books, encouraged war (all things, among many, to be credited to the Christian faith), only deserves the kind of respect I would show towards the following items : radioactive waste, scorpions, high-voltage electric power lines, unexploded WW-II ordnance.

And with the same consequences : the extensive use of lead aprons, insulating mittens, prongs, high-explosives and remotely-operated bomb-disposal robots.

I will extend "belief system" to cover political theories : the USA starts wars under false pretense, killing thousands for financial profit, and the French democratic republic has a standing ban on a specific book : Hitler's Mein Kampf, which is only available in edited and commented versions. The infamous book, by the way, is also illegal to buy or sell (but legal to possess) in the Netherland. France and the Netherlands, curiously, are heralds of freedom of expression. So... not so much, I guess.

In the end, no matter what you do or say, you will ALWAYS offend someone's belief about something, because there are 6.5 billion people on this planet and no two think exactly the same way about absolutely everything.

Respecting everyone's beliefs is impossible. I'm part Armenian and my family knows first-hand that the mere fact of BEING Christian is a deadly offense to Muslims. Deadly meaning "I'll bury you alive in front of your kids, which I'll then enslave".

On another note, if scientists respected anyone's religious beliefs, we'd still be in the middle ages. I doubt we'd even have made it to the iron age. Beliefs are made to be challenged. If a belief cannot stand challenge, it certainly cannot, and should not deserve respect.

Nefastor