20 replies to this topic

[biochemist182]

My Organic Chemistry chemistry Professor thought hell, why don't I go out and buy some. He didn't feel it was a good idea to be taking it if its long term effects have not been documented.

i just like to collect some peoples thoughts on they're reasons for taking it.

has it made any difference?

Is the positive effect worth the potential risk? In your own opinion

[biochemist182]

In other words, Why wouldn't my chemistry teacher choose to take Piracetam if it has so many benefits?

In conclusion, If he doesn't want to take it Why do you want to take it?

Does it boil down to the people that take piracetam are far more careless with they're health?

[MP11]

In other words, Why wouldn't my chemistry teacher choose to take Piracetam if it has so many benefits?

In conclusion, If he doesn't want to take it Why do you want to take it?

Does it boil down to the people that take piracetam are far more careless with they're health?

I thought you said he didn't want to take it becuase long term effects weren't documented?

[Rags847]

Piracetam was first synthesized in 1964 by scientists at the Belgian pharmaceutical company UCB led by Dr Corneliu E. Giurgea.
It's been around for 43 years.

[biochemist182]

Piracetam was first synthesized in 1964 by scientists at the Belgian pharmaceutical company UCB led by Dr Corneliu E. Giurgea.
It's been around for 43 years.

Yeah, he doesnt want to take it because the long term effects havent been documented, so what makes you want to take it.

Despite being developed in the 1960's i hear it wasn't really used widely until the 70's

I'm just wondering why Everybody doesnt buy bulk piracetam from bulknutrtion lol, not that I work for them. but come on... IT's a wonder drug right!? It seems like they're no reason not to take it in a healthy indivindual

I'm going to be on it for the 2nd day today, im not expecting to feel any effects yet so i think ill add some oxiracetam and acetylcholine

Edited by biochemist182, 01 December 2007 - 06:30 PM.

[gashinshotan]

In other words, Why wouldn't my chemistry teacher choose to take Piracetam if it has so many benefits?

In conclusion, If he doesn't want to take it Why do you want to take it?

Does it boil down to the people that take piracetam are far more careless with they're health?

Old people are afraid of new technology and drugs. Conservativism at its worst especially when it involves someone who can understand the mechanisms of the drugs.

[biochemist182]

^ i just think that if it was as effective as it's claimed to be ALOT more people would take it

People enjoyed my presentation though, and i look forward to noticing any changes in my cognition

[gashinshotan]

^ i just think that if it was as effective as it's claimed to be ALOT more people would take it

People enjoyed my presentation though, and i look forward to noticing any changes in my cognition

Or, maybe it's because the FDA doesn't want to approve it as a performance-enhancing drug. There have been hundreds of studies on its effectiveness; check out pubmed. Information is for those who seek it, not the masses who should be kept deliberately ignorant so they are easier to exploit.

[biochemist182]

^ i just think that if it was as effective as it's claimed to be ALOT more people would take it

People enjoyed my presentation though, and i look forward to noticing any changes in my cognition

Or, maybe it's because the FDA doesn't want to approve it as a performance-enhancing drug. There have been hundreds of studies on its effectiveness; check out pubmed. Information is for those who seek it, not the masses who should be kept deliberately ignorant so they are easier to exploit.

haha ^^ i like the way you think

[Rags847]

It is a good question why more people don't take it.
There is a herd mentality in human nature.
Millions enhance themselves with coffee and caffeine because it is part of the culture - everyone does it.
Millions drink wine, beer and other alcohol (a liquid drug) because it is a part of the accepted culture - a cultural ritual.
There are some people who didn't want a sexual performance enhancement drug released (Viagra, Levitra, Cialis). But once it was it became the best selling drug enhancer ever. Still, a lot of healthy people who would have fun with it as an enhancer don't use it since they would be embarrassed to go to a doctor and ask for a prescription.
Energy drinks weren't used by many, then it caught on in a big way (Red Bull, etc.).
The cause: good marketing.
Medicine is oriented to curing a disease vs. enhancing an already healthy person.
Enhancement is still a new trend that hasn't caught on yet.
Once it does it will be a paradime shift in medicine.
From curing the sick to enhancing the healthy.
I think we are getting very close to this happening in the next 30 years.
Plastic and cosmetic surgery was originally developed to help those severely deformed.
Now it is used routinely to enhance the looks of already normal people.
The trend is coming for enhancement.
We are members of it's frontier. Joining it early.
Early Americans enhanced their lives by reading good literature.
Today very few spend their free time reading literature and some talk about "the novel being dead."
Doesn't mean good literature shouldn't be used now as an enhancement.
It is a logical fallacy to an argument to say not a lot of people do it, therefore it must not be legitament. Or that millions do it, so it must be legitament. The "14 million monkeys can't be wrong" fallacy.
Yes they can.
A few things to ponder.

Edited by Rags847, 06 December 2007 - 06:33 AM.

[JonesGuy]

I think a real question is "why aren't psychiatrists taking it?"

These are people who are very familiar with the brain, very familiar with drugs, and as interested (as anyone else) of increased performance.

I don't know a single psychiatrist who doesn't take caffeine, because of its benefits. But I don't know of any trend in psychiatrists or cognition researchers who take it.

Think about other drugs with proven benefits: you'll find specialists who happily take those drugs. Doctors take half an aspirin everyday. Biologists take Omege 3s every day.

I wouldn't mess around with my own brain without being monitored by an interesed doctor (or researcher) collecting and analysing the data. Self-monitoring doesn't always work, because of mania.

[Rags847]

Very good question QJones.
Is there a neurologist and psychiatrist forum board where we can ask then directly?
I'd be interested in their responses.
What about Modafinil?
They know about that drug and many are prescribing it for off-label purposes. Not just to narcoleptic but for ADD, depression, seasonal-affect disorder, fatigue symptoms from SSRIs, alcoholism, cocaine addiction, late-shift workers and to execitives who work long hours, etc.
Do they use it themselves for a boost?

Here are 4 PubMed studies:

1: J Clin Psychiatry. 2003 Sep;64(9):1057-64. <script language="JavaScript1.2">Links
Adjunct modafinil for the short-term treatment of fatigue and sleepiness in patients with major depressive disorder: a preliminary double-blind, placebo-controlled study.
DeBattista C, Doghramji K, Menza MA, Rosenthal MH, Fieve RR; Modafinil in Depression Study Group.Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, Stanford University Medical Center, 401 Quarry Road, Room 2137, Stanford, CA 94305, USA. debattista@leland.stanford.edu

BACKGROUND: Fatigue and sleepiness are primary symptoms of depression that may not resolve with antidepressant therapy. Modafinil is a novel agent that has been shown to improve wakefulness and lessen fatigue in a variety of conditions. In this study, we examined the utility of modafinil as an adjunct therapy to treat fatigue and sleepiness in patients with major depression who are partial responders to antidepressants. METHOD: Patients with partial response to anti-depressant therapy given for at least a 6-week period for a current major depressive episode (DSM-IV criteria) were enrolled in this 6-week, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, parallel-group, multicenter study. Patients received once-daily doses (100-400 mg) of modafinil or matching placebo as adjunct treatment to ongoing antidepressant therapy. The effects of modafinil were evaluated using the Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression (HAM-D), the Fatigue Severity Scale (FSS), the Epworth Sleepiness Scale (ESS), the Clinical Global Impression of Change (CGI-C), and the Medical Outcomes Study 36-Item Short-Form Health Survey (SF-36). Adverse events were monitored throughout the study. RESULTS: One hundred thirty-six patients were randomized to treatment, with 118 patients (87%) completing the study. Most patients (82%) were fatigued, and one half of patients (51%) were sleepy. Modafinil rapidly improved fatigue and daytime wakefulness, with significantly greater mean improvements from baseline than placebo in fatigue (FSS) scores at week 2 (p < .05) and sleepiness (ESS) scores at week 1 (p < .01); the differences between modafinil and placebo at week 6 were not statistically significant. Assessment of the augmentation effects of modafinil (HAM-D, CGI-C, and SF-36) did not significantly distinguish modafinil from placebo. Modafinil was well tolerated in combination with a variety of antidepressants. CONCLUSION: Modafinil may be a useful adjunct therapy for the short-term management of residual fatigue and sleepiness in patients who are partial responders to antidepressant therapy.

PMID: 14628981 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

And another:
1: Adv Ther. 2006 Jul-Aug;23(4):646-54. <script language="JavaScript1.2">Links
Open-label study of adjunct modafinil for the treatment of patients with fatigue, sleepiness, and major depression treated with selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors.
Konuk N, Atasoy N, Atik L, Akay O.Faculty of Medicine, Department of Psychiatry, Zonguldak Karaelmas University, Kozlu/Zonguldak, Turkey.

Despite the efficacy of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) in the treatment of major depression, a significant number of patients show partial or no remission of symptoms. Some evidence suggests that psychostimulant augmentation may be helpful in treating patients with residual symptoms of depression. The efficacy of modafinil in augmenting SSRIs in depressed patients with residual fatigue or excessive daytime sleepiness has yet to be systematically investigated. In a series of 25 patients with major depressive disorder, according to the criteria of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th edition, who showed significant residual symptoms after an adequate SSRI trial (12 wk) and who were evaluated according to the Fatigue Severity Scale (FSS), subjects with scores > or = 4 were given open-label modafinil augmentation for a minimum of an additional 6 wk. Treatment response was assessed prospectively with the FSS, the Epworth Sleepiness Scale (ESS), and the Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression (HAM-D) during the first visit and at the second and sixth weeks. Twenty-one of 25 patients in this series who were treated with modafinil and SSRIs completed the 6-wk augmentation trial. At end-point assessment, all patients showed significant improvement in fatigue and sleepiness in FSS and ESS scores, as well as in HAM-D scores (P<.01). In the second week, 29.4% of patients had a HAM-D score <7, which was defined as remission; this rate was 64.7% in the sixth week. The rate of patients whose HAM-D score dropped by more than 50%, defined as responders to treatment, was 41.1% and 76.4% in the second and sixth weeks, respectively. Results of this preliminary, open-label trial suggest that modafinil may be effective in augmenting ongoing SSRI treatment for a portion of patients with major depression who have residual fatigue and sleepiness. Larger, placebo-controlled trials appear warranted to investigate the clinical efficacy and tolerability of modafinil augmentation of SSRI treatment in these patients.

PMID: 17050507 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Another:

1: J Affect Disord. 2004 Aug;81(2):173-8. <script language="JavaScript1.2">Links
Modafinil treatment in patients with seasonal affective disorder/winter depression: an open-label pilot study.
Lundt L.Foothills Psychiatry, 223 West State Street, Boise, ID 83702, USA. lplundt@yahoo.com

BACKGROUND: Hypersomnia is a cardinal symptom of seasonal affective disorder/winter depression. This open-label pilot study assessed modafinil, a novel wake-promoting agent, as treatment for seasonal affective disorder/winter depression. METHODS: Total daily modafinil dose was 100 mg (all patients week 1), and 100 mg or 200 mg split dose (weeks 2-8). Efficacy assessments (weeks 1, 2, 5, and 8) included the Structured Interview Guide for the Hamilton Depression (HAM-D) Rating Scale, Seasonal Affective Disorder Version (SIGH-SAD), Montgomery-Asberg Depression Rating Scale (MADRS), Clinical Global Impression of Change (CGI-C), Fatigue Severity Scale (FSS), and Epworth Sleepiness Scale (ESS). RESULTS: Thirteen patients (11 women; mean age, 41 years) were enrolled, 12 were evaluable for efficacy (100 mg dose, five patients; 200 mg dose, seven patients), and nine completed treatment. Modafinil significantly improved winter depression as shown by reductions from baseline in mean SIGH-SAD at week 1 (P<0.01) through week 8 (P<0.001 weeks 2-8) and MADRS total scores from week 2 through week 8 (P<0.01 for all). At week 8, mean SIGH-SAD total score was 17.1 (versus 37.2 at baseline, P<0.001), and mean MADRS total score was 13.3 (versus 26.9 at baseline, P<0.01). Modafinil significantly improved overall clinical condition at all time points (P<0.001). The response rate was 67% on the SIGH-SAD (29 item), HAM-D (21 item), and MADRS, and 100% on eight atypical SIGH-SAD items. Modafinil significantly reduced fatigue (FSS) and improved wakefulness (ESS) from weeks 2 through 8 (P<0.01). Modafinil was well tolerated. LIMITATIONS: This was an open-label, single site study. CONCLUSIONS: Modafinil may be an effective and well-tolerated treatment in patients with seasonal affective disorder/winter depression.

PMID: 15306145 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Last one:

1: Psychopharmacology (Berl). 2004 Jan;171(2):133-9. Epub 2003 Nov 25. <script language="JavaScript1.2">Links
Effect of modafinil on fatigue, mood, and health-related quality of life in patients with narcolepsy.
Becker PM, Schwartz JR, Feldman NT, Hughes RJ.Department of Psychiatry, University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center, Dallas, Tex., USA. pbecker@sleepmed.com

INTRODUCTION: In addition to excessive sleepiness, patients with narcolepsy often have significant fatigue, depressed mood, and decreased quality of life. OBJECTIVE: To determine whether treatment with modafinil for excessive sleepiness improves fatigue, mood, and health-related quality of life (HRQOL) in patients with narcolepsy. MATERIALS AND METHODS: Outpatients with narcolepsy underwent a 14-day washout of psychostimulants and then were enrolled in this 6-week, open-label, multicenter study. Patients received modafinil starting at 200 mg once daily for week 1, and then 200 or 400 mg daily for weeks 2 through 6. Efficacy was evaluated using the Medical Outcomes Study 36-Item Short-Form Health Survey (SF-36) and the Profile of Mood States (POMS). Safety was assessed by monitoring adverse events (AE). RESULTS: At baseline, 151 patients had moderate to severe excessive sleepiness (mean Epworth Sleepiness Scale score=17.8+/-4.4). Most patients (> or =70% of 123 who completed the study) received 400 mg modafinil once daily during weeks 2 through 6. Modafinil significantly improved HRQOL, based on SF-36 measures of mental and physical component summary scores and subdomain scores of role-physical, social functioning, and vitality (each P<0.001). Modafinil treatment was also associated with significantly reduced fatigue and significantly improved vigor and cognition as assessed by the POMS (each P<0.001) from weeks 1 through 6. The most frequent AE with modafinil treatment were headache, nausea, and insomnia; most AE were mild or moderate in nature. Only seven patients (5%) withdrew from the study because of AE. CONCLUSION: In narcolepsy patients who were switched from psychostimulants, modafinil therapy improved HRQOL and subjective feelings of vigor and cognitive functioning and reduced fatigue.

PMID: 14647965 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Edited by Rags847, 02 December 2007 - 03:29 PM.

[sorellasotero]

I'm taking piracetam now and loving the effects.

[abelard lindsay]

To answer the whole "why isn't everybody taking it?"

Our culture has taboos just like any other culture. Some are more severe than others. For example, In Korea or China one can kill and eat a pet dog and nobody will care and they've been doing that for thousands of years. If one does that in the U.S people WILL want to kill you.

The taboo in the case of Piracetam is the simple message drilled into people by the war on drugs in school, in the workplace, in the media, is that anything you put in your body that isn't a drug a doctor prescribed to cure a diagnosed disease, food to keep you from being hungry, or alcohol or coffee is taboo. End of story. Period. No Exceptions. The absolute definition of health is the absence of disease. "Aging" and the associated normal cognitive and physical decline are NOT considered diseases. Anything involving mood, anxiety or personality that is not a severe mental illness such as schizophrenia is looked at by many as evidence of an immutable moral flaw and not a disease that should be treated by taking anything. All health information that doesn't come from your HMO provided doctor is snake oil or worse.

The taboo does not apply to achieving health by NOT putting stuff in your body. Thus the popularity of natural and organic foods, fat free foods, sugar free foods, vegetarianism, veganism, fasting, calorie-restricting diets, diet soda, etc. Spiritual means and physical means of improving oneself are acceptable too. Thus the popularity of mediation, self-help, yoga, aerobic exercise (though weight training is somewhat frowned upon), etc.

These are the taboos of our culture that still persist today and are the guiding principles in many countries that heavily restrict supplement usage (e.g Norway, EU, etc.).

Things occasionally change though... The sexual revolution happened. Women moved into the career world. People started eating raw fish. DSHEA was passed in the U.S. Energy drinks entered the mainstream.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 06 December 2007 - 02:51 AM.

[woly]

could it be more that there are very little studies showing any benefits in healthy (not affected by alzheimers/dementia/stroke) humans?

[ortcloud]

What great answers from everyone. All true, what I have noticed is when it comes down to it and you present something in this taboo category to one of the masses like your chem professor and make a great case, handle all questions show research and benefits etc. etc. and ask them if they want to take it, their reaction is FEAR.

In our society we no longer make decisions for ourselves on what to take, we have other people make our decisions for us and as a result we no longer are able to, we have been weakened. We dont control our own health any longer, doctors make all the decisions for us and want to keep us in the dark as much as possible. So when it comes down to it people cant make decisions on taking anything unless their doctor tells them to take it or unless they read about it in the paper or see it on tv. Piracetam is in a limbo state, it is available but your doctor doesnt prescribe it and you dont see it advertised on tv. I have shown people research and information on nutritional substances and their reaction is that they are scared to death, just absolutely paralyzed with fear of making a decision on their own.

Edited by ortcloud, 07 December 2007 - 04:16 AM.

[abelard lindsay]

In our society we no longer make decisions for ourselves on what to take, we have other people make our decisions for us and as a result we no longer are able to, we have been weakened. We dont control our own health any longer, doctors make all the decisions for us and want to keep us in the dark as much as possible. So when it comes down to it people cant make decisions on taking anything unless their doctor tells them to take it or unless they read about it in the paper or see it on tv. Piracetam is in a limbo state, it is available but your doctor doesnt prescribe it and you dont see it advertised on tv. I have shown people research and information on nutritional substances and their reaction is that they are scared to death, just absolutely paralyzed with fear of making a decision on their own.

I have tried to tell a few close friends about nootropics and more advanced supplementation but mostly they just flat out don't take me seriously or they say "Wow! That's interesting!" and they never ask me about it again. It's like I was telling them about some borderline socially acceptable bizarre religious ceremony I attended the previous week.

[sorellasotero]

I've told several people. Only one of them (my middle son) has tried piracetam, and my youngest son likes a more mainstream product containing huperzine for study (he's in college, mechanical engineering, and doing great). I feel at home in my brain again - it greatly reduces the afternoon fog, picks me up in the morning better than coffee, and greatly helps with driving at night.

[ortcloud]

I've told several people. Only one of them (my middle son) has tried piracetam, and my youngest son likes a more mainstream product containing huperzine for study (he's in college, mechanical engineering, and doing great). I feel at home in my brain again - it greatly reduces the afternoon fog, picks me up in the morning better than coffee, and greatly helps with driving at night.

how does it help driving at night, visually or mentally ? how much do you take by the way

[sorellasotero]

I start the day with two 800 mg capsules, and boost with one two to four times over the day as I feel the urge. I think it helps night driving because a lot of people are tired, and all the darkness and glare (plus any precipitation, accidents, construction) place demands on the brain for interpretation but it's harder than in daylight. There was a study of elderly drivers where it was shown to help them interpret traffic signs, I recall.

I also add choline, b vitamins, benfotiamine (sp?), huperzine, and a lot of other supplements. But piracetam made the biggest difference of anything I've tried.

Edited by sorellasotero, 13 December 2007 - 12:12 PM.

[luv2increase]

I have tried to tell a few close friends about nootropics and more advanced supplementation but mostly they just flat out don't take me seriously or they say "Wow! That's interesting!" and they never ask me about it again. It's like I was telling them about some borderline socially acceptable bizarre religious ceremony I attended the previous week.

Lol! That is funny. I have, although unfortunately, experienced exactly how you have described it on numerous occasions. It is just part of life. In ten years from now, I believe it will be the reciprocal of how the mainstream thinks about cognitive enhancement and anti-aging supplementation alongside the others even like skin and hair supplements and athletic supplementation, now.