33 replies to this topic

[health_nutty]

There are quite a few studies that show that caffeine has health properties. What is the optimal amount of caffeine to take? I'm surely taking well over what is optimal (about 6 cups of tea).

Are there any studies on how much caffeine is bad?

[Ghostrider]

There are quite a few studies that show that caffeine has health properties. What is the optimal amount of caffeine to take? I'm surely taking well over what is optimal (about 6 cups of tea).

Are there any studies on how much caffeine is bad?

For me, the optimal amount is none.

[wydell]

I think the evidence shows that caffeine is helpful in many instances.

Gary Null is particularly negative on caffeine and coffee. He has some real old papers on his site regarding. I stopped drinking coffee because of his influence in favor of Matcha and Cocoa (maybe the lead is getting me though) , but his opinions seem to be contrary to the studies.

Maybe I am subject to certain amount of brainwashing.

A Pilot Study of Some Physiological and Psychological Effects of Caffeine

Sanford Bolton, Ph.D.
Martin Feldman, M.D.Gary Null, M.S.
Emanuel Revici, M.D.
and LindaStumper, B.S.
from the Journal of Orthomolecular Psychiatry, Vol. 13, #1


http://www.gnhealth.....php?article=20

Caffeine: Psychological Effects, Use and Abuse

Sanford Bolton, Ph.D. and Gary Null, Ph.D.
From Orthomolecular Psychiatry, Volume 10, Number 3, 1981, p. 202-211

http://www.gnhealth.....php?article=19

[katzenjammer]

It's pretty well established that caffeine has a negative effect on insulin sensitivity, no?

[Mind]

I just heard on TV the other day that the suggested limit (US RDA??) of caffiene was the equivalent of 2 cups of coffee or 200 mgs. Depending on the type of tea you are drinking...6 cups is in the same ballpark as 2 cups of coffee.

[Infernity]

Optimal amount of caffeine is none at all. The advantages are so minor to be compared with the disadvantages that it isn't worth it. I drink a lot off coffee. Mostly due to addiction than health.

[Shepard]

It's pretty well established that caffeine has a negative effect on insulin sensitivity, no?

Are we talking about caffeine itself or commonly consumed caffeine-containing beverages? Yes, caffeine by itself can have an acutely negative effect on insulin sensitivity, but many other things do as well.

My gut feeling would say keep long-term caffeine intake under or around 300mg/day for most people. Some people should probably stay away from caffeine.

[gashinshotan]

Anyone snort caffeine powder?

[lucid]

Here are some exerpts from wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffine)
On improving Athletic Stamina:

With these effects, caffeine is an ergogenic: increasing the capacity for mental or physical labor. A study conducted in 1979 showed a 7% increase in distance cycled over a period of two hours in subjects who consumed caffeine compared to control tests.^[40] Other studies attained much more dramatic results; one particular study of trained runners showed a 44% increase in "race-pace" endurance, as well as a 51% increase in cycling endurance, after a dosage of 9 milligrams of caffeine per kilogram of body weight.^[41] The extensive boost shown in the runners is not an isolated case; additional studies have reported similar effects. Another study found 5.5 milligrams of caffeine per kilogram of body mass resulted in subjects cycling 29% longer during high intensity circuits.

On effect on memory:

In one study, caffeine was added to rat neurons in vitro. The dendritic spines (a part of the brain cell used in forming connections between neurons) taken from the hippocampus (a part of the brain associated with memory), grew by 33% and new spines formed. After an hour or two, however, these cells returned to their original shape.^[76]

Another study showed that subjects—after receiving 100 milligrams of caffeine—had increased activity in brain regions located in the frontal lobe, where a part of the working memory network is located, and the anterior cingulum, a part of the brain that controls attention. The caffeinated subjects also performed better on the memory tasks.^[77]

However, a different study showed that caffeine could impair short term memory and increase the likelihood of the tip of the tongue phenomenon. The study allowed the researchers to suggest that caffeine could aid short-term memory when the information to be recalled is related to the current train of thought, but also to hypothesize that caffeine hinders short-term memory when the train of thought is unrelated.^[78] In essence, focused thought coupled with caffeine consumption increases mental performance.

I have tried taking before running and didn't notice much of an effect. I find it of little use for studying (unlike Adderall).

It is also used in some weight loss pills, and may have some use in getting to an ideal weight.

A few studies indicate that caffeine may slightly enhance weight loss in people who exercise and maintain a low-fat diet. But there's no evidence that increased caffeine intake results in significant or permanent weight loss. Marketers of fad diets and weight-loss supplements often exaggerate the benefits of caffeine, claiming that caffeine will significantly curb your appetite and help you drop pounds quickly. However, clinical studies on the relationship between caffeine and weight loss don't support these claims.

Here's what researchers have found:

• Caffeine may act as an appetite suppressant. However, while studies have shown that some people eat less after consuming caffeine, this effect is brief — not long enough to lead to significant weight loss.
• Caffeine may increase your body's ability to burn calories. Caffeine is thought to stimulate thermogenesis — one way your body generates heat and energy from digesting food. However, caffeine's role in thermogenesis probably isn't enough to result in significant weight loss.
• Caffeine acts as a diuretic, which means it causes an increase in the amount of urine you excrete. This water loss may temporarily decrease your body weight.

It's important to keep in mind that caffeine is a stimulant that can increase your heart rate and blood pressure, interrupt your sleep, and cause nervousness and irritability. Also, many caffeinated beverages are high in calories, which can contribute to unwanted weight gain.

http://www.mayoclini...affeine/HQ00369

Edited by lucid, 02 December 2007 - 10:04 PM.

[browser]

Anyone snort caffeine powder?

Cigarettes and coffee are the on the job drugs of choice for the IT crowd. Many companies provide coffee gratis to keeps us working.

This is the IT philosophy on diet and health:

Q: I've heard that cardiovascular exercise can prolong life; is this true?
A: Your heart is only good for so many beats, and that's it... Don't waste them on exercise . Everything wears out eventually. Speeding up your heart will not make you live longer; that's like saying you can extend the life of your car by driving it faster. Want to live longer? Take a nap.


Q: Should I cut down on meat and eat more fruits and vegetables?
A: You must grasp logistical efficiencies. What does a cow eat? Hay and corn. And what are these? Vegetables. So a steak is nothing more than an efficient mechanism of delivering vegetables to your system. Need grain? Eat chicken. Beef is also a good source of field grass (green leafy vegetable). And a pork chop can give you 100% of your recommended daily allowance of vegetable products


Q: Should I reduce my alcohol intake?
A: No, not at all. Wine is made from fruit. Brandy is distilled wine, that means they take the water out of the fruity bit so you get even more of the goodness that way. Beer is also made out of grain. Bottoms up!


Q: How can I calculate my body/fat ratio?
A: Well, if you have a body and you have fat, your ratio is one to one. If you have two bodies, your ratio is two to one, etc.


Q: What are some of the advantages of participating in a regular exercise program?
A: Can't think of a single one, sorry. My philosophy is: No Pain...Good!


Q: Aren't fried foods bad for you?
A: You're not listening.... Foods are fried these days in vegetable oil. In fact, they're permeated in it. How could getting more vegetables be bad for you?


Q: Will sit-ups help prevent me from getting a little soft around the middle?
A: Definitely not! When you exercise a muscle, it gets bigger. You should only be doing sit-ups if you want a bigger stomach.


Q: Is chocolate bad for me?
A: Are you crazy? HELLO Cocoa beans! Another vegetable. It's the best feel-good food around! !


Q: Is swimming good for your figure?
A: If swimming is good for your figure, explain whales to me.


Q: Is getting in-shape important for my lifestyle?
A: Hey! 'Round' is a shape! !


Well, I hope this has cleared up any misconceptions you may have had about food and diets.


And remember:
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming, "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"
Why is it that at class reunions you feel younger than everyone else looks?

[luminous]

Anyone snort caffeine powder?

A caffeine patch would be nice, too.

I had surgery a few years ago and had to go under general anesthesia. Of course, they say no food, no water, no coffee, nothing, for 12 or more hours before the surgery. I ended up with such a horrible headache that I was begging medical staff to put some form of caffeine into my IV. I had surgery again about a year after that. I took a risk by drinking half a cup of very strong coffee the morning of the surgery. It was so worth it, especially since I didn't die from ingesting the liquid.

To me, the main drawback to caffeine is the never-ending need to keep myself properly dosed. It's quite an addiction. I've managed to kick the habit several times in my life, but I always seem to go back to it. I'm REALLY happy that caffeine is considered healthy (at the moment).

Anyway, I did some spot searches and gathered that 200-300 mg. of daily caffeine is optimal. I never count, however, as I have a job in IT.

Edited by luminous, 04 December 2007 - 03:02 AM.

[Spiral Architect]

What negative effect does Caffeine have on Insulin sensitivity, exactly?

I use 50-100mg of Caffeine infrequently to:
1) Improve concentration and learning
2) Increase motivation
3) Increase stamina and/or burn more fat in cardiovascular exercises
4) Party harder

[Shepard]

What negative effect does Caffeine have on Insulin sensitivity, exactly?

By increasing epinephrine and everything that goes with it.

[RighteousReason]

Five cans of coca-cola per day.

According to the 77 year old Warren Buffett anyway.

Edited by CSstudent, 04 December 2007 - 05:42 PM.

[rodentman]

Ive been on generic vivarin for about 15 years now. about 300 mg a day. Its not that it gives you more energy for the day. But it allows you to control when your ups and downs are, which is a life saver for me, since I'm borderline chronically fatigued.

I tested out lots of nootropics and NONE of them helped me. But for me, its not about gaining IQ, its about gaining motivation to get off my ass.

[sUper GeNius]

Coffee is one of the little pleasures in life. Caffeine has very little risk IMO. It's wanting to enjoy the "little pleasures" for a few extra decades that brought me to this forum to begin with.

[cyborgdreamer]

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming, "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"

Well, I agree with the first nine words of that quote. :shifty:

[Spiral Architect]

Optimal amount of caffeine is none at all. The advantages are so minor to be compared with the disadvantages that it isn't worth it. I drink a lot off coffee. Mostly due to addiction than health.

The advantages are not minor at all and the disadvantages are parctically non-existent as long as you're not an addict and use Caffeine responsibly, just like any other drug. Generalizations like these are meaningless.

[graatch]

It's pretty well established that caffeine has a negative effect on insulin sensitivity, no?

Yes, but coffee drinkers have a strongly reduced incidence of diabetes. The reasons behind this have not been fully elaborated, but I imagine the short-term epinephrine effects on insulin fade, and the positive effects of chlorogenic acid and caffeine itself soldier on.

Coffee kicks ass. Yerba mate for me, though.

[maxwatt]

It's pretty well established that caffeine has a negative effect on insulin sensitivity, no?

Yes, but coffee drinkers have a strongly reduced incidence of diabetes. The reasons behind this have not been fully elaborated, but I imagine the short-term epinephrine effects on insulin fade, and the positive effects of chlorogenic acid and caffeine itself soldier on.

Coffee kicks ass. Yerba mate for me, though.

I believe the effect is from caffeic acid and other substances, rather than from caffeine. Tea doesn't have this effect.

[graatch]

I believe the effect is from caffeic acid and other substances, rather than from caffeine

I think it's mostly chlorogenic acid too re the diabetes stuff, though caffeine itself has been shown repeatedly to be neuroprotective and I don't think it's hard to postulate additional protective effect against some the nasty effects of free glucose.

Check it: http://www.sciencedi...a7c0b905f963d0c

Tea doesn't have this effect.

Tea does in fact seem to have beneficial effect in diabetes, though perhaps mediated through other mechanisms as well.

[jaydfox]

Here are some exerpts from wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffine)
On improving Athletic Stamina:

With these effects, caffeine is an ergogenic: increasing the capacity for mental or physical labor. A study conducted in 1979 showed a 7% increase in distance cycled over a period of two hours in subjects who consumed caffeine compared to control tests.^[40] Other studies attained much more dramatic results; one particular study of trained runners showed a 44% increase in "race-pace" endurance, as well as a 51% increase in cycling endurance, after a dosage of 9 milligrams of caffeine per kilogram of body weight.^[41] The extensive boost shown in the runners is not an isolated case; additional studies have reported similar effects. Another study found 5.5 milligrams of caffeine per kilogram of body mass resulted in subjects cycling 29% longer during high intensity circuits.

Wow, 9 mg caffeine per kg body weight? For an 80 kg athlete, that would be over 700 mg! And I assume that's not spread over the course of a day, but megadosed prior to engaging in the athletic activity. I suppose the effect must be similar to ephedra? And we all know how safe that was!

[Shepard]

Wow, 9 mg caffeine per kg body weight? For an 80 kg athlete, that would be over 700 mg! And I assume that's not spread over the course of a day, but megadosed prior to engaging in the athletic activity. I suppose the effect must be similar to ephedra? And we all know how safe that was!

Yeah, probably much safer than that dose of caffeine (assuming a standard 25-50mg dose).

[luv2increase]

I would have to say that no caffeine would be optimal, but if you must, probably no more than 200mg a day.

[resveratrol]

I just heard on TV the other day that the suggested limit (US RDA??) of caffiene was the equivalent of 2 cups of coffee or 200 mgs. Depending on the type of tea you are drinking...6 cups is in the same ballpark as 2 cups of coffee.

This is correct. There is definitely a point of diminishing returns, and from everything I've seen, it's right around 200 mg.

Caffeine is an entirely safe and healthy supplement if you use it responsibly.

Coffee itself is not necessarily safe or healthy; it's chock full of all kinds of compounds whose biological effects are completely unknown, and some of which may even be harmful.

However, caffeine itself is an extremely safe and well-studied supplement with a surprising array of positive health and mental alertness benefits, so long as you steer clear of the point of diminishing returns.

Here's a great book I read on the topic a few years back:

The Caffeine Advantage: How to Sharpen Your Mind, Improve Your Physical Performance, and Achieve Your Goals -- the Healthy Way


EDIT: I think some of the confusion comes from the fact that there are several anti-caffeine books on the market that paint caffeine as a deadly drug. However, these books (such as Caffeine Blues) deal almost exclusively with people who take far more than the recommended amount -- in excess of 300 mg/day, which is unsafe. Unfortunately, books like these generally fail to recognize that it's not the caffeine itself that's the problem; it's the level of intake.

Edited by resveratrol, 13 December 2007 - 04:11 PM.

[luv2increase]

Yeah, 200mg is not much. Say someone has an intake of 200mg for awhile trying to abide by this recommendation, and the positive effects diminish due to tolerance, then what? There would be no more point to taking in caffeine anymore, except only to negate withdrawal symptoms. It is a path to nothing special. There is nothing special with caffeine in any form except green tea. This is where one's intake of this horrid chemical should come from, if one must. Otherwise, that 200mg limit with be no more withstanding after awhile because you'd want that initial good improvement in focus, energy, etc.. once again. It can turn into a vicious cycle just like any other stimulant IMHO.

[resveratrol]

Yeah, 200mg is not much. Say someone has an intake of 200mg for awhile trying to abide by this recommendation, and the positive effects diminish due to tolerance, then what? There would be no more point to taking in caffeine anymore, except only to negate withdrawal symptoms. It is a path to nothing special. There is nothing special with caffeine in any form except green tea. This is where one's intake of this horrid chemical should come from, if one must. Otherwise, that 200mg limit with be no more withstanding after awhile because you'd want that initial good improvement in focus, energy, etc.. once again. It can turn into a vicious cycle just like any other stimulant IMHO.

No, no, no, no, no.

Caffeine is not any sort of "horrid chemical," and if you're going to inject that kind of spurious nonsense into this thread, I'd appreciate it if you'd back it up with references to actual science.

To my knowledge, there is no evidence that any positive effects of caffeine diminish due to increased tolerance, particularly at levels under 200 mg/day. Until you provide any evidence to suggest otherwise, I'm going to assume you're just wildly guessing that maybe something like that might happen.

There have been plenty of links in this thread to well-studied positive biological effects of caffeine at low levels, and if that's not enough for you, I'd like to warmly invite you to check out some of the other threads on the topic, particularly this one:

http://www.imminst.o...&...=17686&st=0

[resveratrol]

To put a finer point on it: calling caffeine a "horrid chemical" is like calling alcohol a "horrid chemical" because some people drink too much of it and kill themselves or others.

Most people have understood since the Prohibition era that the effects are beneficial when used responsibly.

Edited by resveratrol, 13 December 2007 - 10:08 PM.

[luv2increase]

Caffeine is a stimulant which causes addiction and comes along with a whole host of side-effects equivalent albeit less pronounced as seen in more powerful stimulants. Do you think it is good to stress your heart and adrenals day in day out? Granted there are beneficial effects, but not enough to warrant its daily use. I don't believe there was a consensus made on the thread which you directed me to either... This won't be solved.

The question was what a safe, optimal daily dosage range would be. I said not more than 200mg. This isn't a debate about whether or not caffeine is good or bad for you. Get over it.

[resveratrol]

Nonsense. You very much turned it into a debate on whether or not caffeine is good or bad for you. Once again, here's what you wrote; I think a careful reading will make clear that you discussed many things other than optimal dosage:

Yeah, 200mg is not much. Say someone has an intake of 200mg for awhile trying to abide by this recommendation, and the positive effects diminish due to tolerance, then what? There would be no more point to taking in caffeine anymore, except only to negate withdrawal symptoms. It is a path to nothing special. There is nothing special with caffeine in any form except green tea. This is where one's intake of this horrid chemical should come from, if one must. Otherwise, that 200mg limit with be no more withstanding after awhile because you'd want that initial good improvement in focus, energy, etc.. once again. It can turn into a vicious cycle just like any other stimulant IMHO.

Also, if you really do believe that a reasonable level of caffeine intake causes significant stress to the heart and adrenals, I warmly invite you to post links to the research that would indicate that.

Edited by resveratrol, 13 December 2007 - 10:53 PM.