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Christian Communism II


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#1 william7

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Posted 14 December 2007 - 11:26 PM


Christian Communism
Your Place of Safety


Below I've reproduced two chapters -- “Early Christianity: Religion of the Oppressed” and “Christian Communism” -- from Crises in European History, by Dr. Gustav Bang, a Marxist historian. The booklet first appeared serially in the Daily People, a daily newspaper published in the United States by the Socialist Labor Party, in 1909-10.

Before I became a believer, I studied Marxism while in prison. I was convinced for a time that communism without more was the answer to poverty, injustice, violence, and other social problems. I diligently studied all the socialist literature I could obtain freely -- especially whatever the Socialist Labor Party put out I was capable of purchasing.

I still believe communism to be the answer, but the wisdom of the Bible must be made the governing ethos for it to really work. Communism with its foundation resting solidly on God's commandments and Christ's teachings will win the day once it's fully understood how such a system can bring about the perfect human character full of love mixed with the mercy desired by Christ (Matthew 5:7; 9:13; 12:7; 23:23; James 2:12-13) that will produce the ability of internalizing God's laws so well that punishment and the fear of it are no longer necessary. Ezekiel 11:19-20; Jeremiah 31:33; Hebrews 10:15-18; 1 John 4:18.

Once perfect Christian character is achieved, man will be in the position to mercifully control the increasingly dangerous technologies, such as nanotechnology, artificial intelligence/robotics, and genetic engineering, as we advance towards the scientifically prophesied technological singularity, and be in the position to live out the infinite life spans these technologies will make possible once death and suffering become a thing of the past as prophesied in Revelation 21:3-4. Perfect Christian character will also provide the strength and motivation needed to practice calorie restricted diets and intermittent fasting which will always play a necessary part of any technologically engineered life span.

Once Christian communism is in place and there's no longer an exploiter and exploitee, human labor power will no longer be wasted on frivolous materialism and short sighted thrills as it is today. The full productive apparatus can then be harnessed to achieve real progress and a higher way of life without distraction.

I agree with Dr. Bang where he says:

"It was the communism of property and consumption, the communistic form of
society which was the natural expression of the social longings of the ancient
proletariat, and which in the first Christian congregations was not only proclaimed
but practiced. It was as yet impossible to form a social ideal of productive
socialism—the cooperative commonwealth—because the historical conditions for
such an order of society were wholly lacking;"

"Very early, in the course of but a few decades, pure communism disappeared, as in the nature
of things it had to, because the class interests which there found expression, those
of the proletariat and petty bourgeoisie, had as yet no future before them."

Today, however, is another matter. The expected break throughs in science and technology should be sufficient to provide the conditions necessary to establish a Christian communist society that will endure. Christian communism can work and "a friendly Artificial Intelligence (AI)" created within its framework if the people prepare for it now. Science and technology and Christian communism need one another. Together the future is theirs.

You might well say Christian communism has been tried before but failed. This, however, is not true. What was tried was communism with its basis in some form of Catholic or Protestant doctrine that clearly misconstrued the true teachings of the Scriptures. Failure was inevitable under these circumstances. God would not commit His Holy Spirit to assist an endeavor of this sort.

My brethren quickly point out that Dr. Bang was in error to say that Ananias and Sapphira were killed because they withheld a part of their wealth when it was the lying to the Holy Spirit that was the real reason. Acts 5:1-10 (NIV). I have to agree the error is palpable. But, I must point out the obvious. Had Ananias been truthful with Peter and told him he desired the money for his own use Peter would have been obligated to bar him from taking part in the blessings of the early Christian Church as it was then developing under God's guidance. Ananias would not have been “one in heart and mind” with the rest of the believers and this would've prevented his participation with them. Acts 4:32. The early believers “shared everything.” None held anything back.

The early Christian Church in Acts renounced private property and shared everything on the basis of Christ's teaching that this was a necessary part of the process of becoming perfect. Matthew 19:21. The 12 disciples followed this practice as well. Verse 27. We must assume God intended the early Christian
Church to be an example or role model for Christians today, and that He intends to revive it in the end times as the perfect way of life capable of providing a “place of safety” during the “great tribulation” prophesied to come on the world to test it. Revelation 3:10; 7:14-15.

I also disagree with Dr. Bang where he sees the development of Christianity as springing blindly from the conditions of the times in a social evolutionary fashion. Today, I believe God created the conditions necessary for Christianity to develop as it did. And, of course, I believe it was Satan who was responsible for true Christianity's demise at the hands of the Roman Empire when its rulers executed the true believers and then twisted and paganized its teachings until it was totally unrecognizable from what Jesus taught and practiced.

My copy of Crises in European History says:

“Gustav Bang was born September 26, 1871, in a small provincial town in
Denmark. He died on January 31, 1915. His father was a minister, who also
acquired a considerable reputation as a historian, and it was from the father that
young Bang imbibed his love of history.”

It's my belief, Dr. Bang learned something of the Bible from his father as well.

It's my hope you learn as much from Dr. Bang as I did.

EARLY CHRISTIANITY: RELIGION OF THE OPPRESSED

We see how the necessary elements for the spread of Christian teachings had
been created through the intellectual, religious and moral currents, each of which
with logical necessity sprang from the social changes at the end of antiquity. The
“fullness of time,” as it graphically was called, had arrived. When Christianity in
the first centuries of our era spread among those colonies of Jews, scattered
throughout the Roman Empire, it found their minds prepared. It gave definite form
to those conceptions which had taken hold of the consciousness of the population,
particularly the proletariat. And it was not only its religious and moral ideas which
met with sympathy, but also its social ideas.

Christianity, in its first and purest form, was a religion for the proletariat, for
the poor, suffering and oppressed in society. These were the people to whom Christ
spoke. Immediately before his first appearance as a teacher, he read in the
synagogue of Nazareth the prophecy of Isaiah: “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the
brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of
sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, . . . ” (St. Luke 4:18; Isaiah
61:1) In his foreboding the nature of his activity is outlined. And what he later says
coincides: “. . . Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are ye
that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall
laugh.” (St. Luke 6:20–21) “Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden,
and I will give you rest.” (St. Matt. 11:28)

It was also the common people that gathered around him and listened to him.
His apostles were poor fishermen and artisans, and great was the anger and
indignation of the pillars of society, the pharisees and scribes, because “publicans
and sinners kept close to him to hear him.” It was just the miserable and despised
people who sought refuge with him, and found not only consolation for the soul but
also practical defense against those who were hard on them. The story of the woman
caught in adultery is in its sublime simplicity the most scathing expression of
contempt for the existing moral hypocrisy, and the answer he gave applies as
strongly today: “. . . He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at
her.” (St. John 8:7)

Thus his message was one of compassion and leniency for the poor and outcast
in society; but for the rich he had but hard and threatening words. The rich man
suffered grievously in hell, not because he was so very wicked and sinful, but simply
because he was rich and enjoyed his wealth, “clad in purple and costly linen and
lived every day in magnificence and joy,” while Lazarus slept at his door and ate the
crumbs from his table. Again and again is the same conception of wealth expressed.
His is an absolute denunciation of any society where there are rich and poor,
affluence and want. “. . . woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your
consolation.” (St. Luke 6:24) “. . . Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly
enter into the kingdom of heaven. . . . It is easier for a camel to go through the eye
of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” (St. Matt.
19:23–24) And when the wealthy man, who has kept all the commandments from
his youth, asks what he must further do to inherit eternal life, Jesus answers:
“. . . If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou
shalt have treasure in heaven. . . . ” (St. Matt. 19:21)

In the proclamations of the disciples the same rejection of all wealth is
repeated, and particularly in the James letter the rich are denounced because of the
exploitation and suppression to which they subjected the poor: “Do not rich men
oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
” (St. James 2:6) [Emphasis
added.] “Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come
upon you. Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold
and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and
shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last
days. Behold, the hire of the laborers who have reaped down your fields, which is of
you kept back by fraud, crieth
: [emphasis added] and the cries of them which have
reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth. Ye have lived in pleasure on
the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of
slaughter.” (St. James 5:1–5)

It was, accordingly, a decided proletarian tendency which dominated
Christianity in the first centuries of our era, a tendency which theology of later
times only succeeded in misrepresenting by sophistically exercising a most reckless
violence against the old traditions. And just as proletarian was the positive social
ideal which Christianity proclaimed.

CHRISTIAN COMMUNISM

It was the communism of property and consumption, the communistic form of
society which was the natural expression of the social longings of the ancient
proletariat, and which in the first Christian congregations was not only proclaimed
but practiced. It was as yet impossible to form a social ideal of productive
socialism—the cooperative commonwealth—because the historical conditions for
such an order of society were wholly lacking; the consumptive communism, the
enjoyment of things in common, became the ideal of the proletarians of those days.

This principle is prominent in the Gospels, and particularly in the “Acts.” He
who would follow Christ had to give up all his property, donate it to the
congregation, and the congregation lived in a common household, maintained
through common ownership. It was not a voluntary matter whether or not one
should place his belongings at the disposal of the congregation. On the contrary, it
was considered a mortal sin to neglect. Ananias and his wife Sapphira were
punished with death because they had withheld part of their wealth for their
private benefit (Acts 5). The Christian was to be personally propertyless, and could
only be co-sharer of the common possessions. In the “Acts” we find a description of
the original Christian congregations, and find them constructed in accordance with
the commands of Christ, based upon the ideas of an absolute communistic relation
of property and consumption.

“And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And
sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man
had need. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and
breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and
singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favor with all the people. And
the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.” (Acts 2:44–47)

“Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were
possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the
things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles’ feet: and
distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.” (Acts
4:34–35)

It is conceivable how such a communistic society would absorb the great mass
of the starved and oppressed proletarians, not only in Palestine, but also throughout
the vast Roman Empire. But it will also be seen that its duration, of necessity,
would be short. The number of destitute people to be kept satisfied grew rapidly,
but the amount of wealth at disposal increased very slowly. Soon the bottom would
be reached. At the beginning they rested content with the idea that Christ would
soon return and that the end of the world was at hand. But as time went on the
difficulties increased. From the letters of the apostles, particularly those of Paul, we
receive a vivid impression of the sharp admonitions which were administered in
order to obtain necessaries for the support of the poor in the community. Very early,
in the course of but a few decades, pure communism disappeared, as in the nature
of things it had to, because the class interests which there found expression, those
of the proletariat and petty bourgeoisie, had as yet no future before them. It was
changed to a decrepit charity for the support of the clergy at the expense of the
congregation; to the sacrament of the Lord’s supper as a last remnant of the oldtime
meals, in which all participated; here and there also to a monastic life and
semi-caricatures of the days of the early Christians.

The wealth which was collected for the community was more and more used for
the support of that upper class of ecclesiastics who gradually raised themselves
above the rest of Christian society, and the clergy made ever greater demands for
personal contributions from the members of the congregation. Thus the old
Christian communism was gradually transformed into the medieval, exploiting
church. Theology simultaneously became active, explaining away and
misinterpreting the expressions and statements of the New Testament regarding
wealth and poverty, to rob them of their “salt” and adjust the Christian teachings to
suit the ruling class in society.

But still, long after, there were sects trying to carry the program of ancient
Christianity into effect. As late as the close of the Middle Ages the old Christian
ideals played their role in the class struggle. And even today the accounts given in
the “Acts” are condemnatory of the hypocrisies of our time, of the hypocrites who
endeavor to show, Bible in hand, the right and justification for private property,
whereas no socialist agitator has used stronger language against nor more
mercilessly denounced this right than did Christ and his disciples.


I would also like to point out that Christian communism is not only for the poor as Dr. Bang says, but for the wealthy, who have eyes to see and ears to hear. The wealthy, who have the wisdom to see the utter necessity of Christian communism and the heart to sink their time and money into the early stages of its development, will be blessed by God and do well.

Edited by elijah3, 15 December 2007 - 12:05 AM.


#2 william7

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Posted 17 December 2007 - 01:45 AM

Below is a paragraph I'm trying to work into the article. May be I can sell you on a better law.

God's law and Christ's teachings are perfectly designed to support, reinforce, and enhance communal living. God's law if taught under communal conditions using positive reinforcement techniques, without punishment, should produce a law that's fully internalized in the individual to such a degree an external and hierarchical law enforcement apparatus utilizing after the fact punishment, as we have today, will not be needed. This will be a quantum leap in the evolution of law and fulfill the prophecies found in Ezekiel 11:19-20; Jeremiah 31:33; Hebrews 10:15-18; 1 John 4:18.


How about 7 stars for that alone?

#3 braz

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 05:31 AM

The only communism I know, is one under the great leadership of comrade Lenin and Stalin! ;) :) Come on, we all know that communism is a failed idea.

#4 william7

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 02:33 PM

Atheist communism under Lenin and Stalin was a failure is true. In fact, it was such a failure they were never able to establish it to begin with. Under Lenin and Stalin, the monetary system was never abolished, and, as a consequence, wage slavery was still practiced with a privileged ruling class reaping the benefits thereof.

No country has ever been able to establish communism. What they established were called "dictatorships of the proletariat" which never produced or lead to the true communism they advocated. See http://en.wikipedia....nism#Background.

I believe what Lenin, Stalin, and the others attempted was historically premature as others have pointed out. See, for example, http://en.wikipedia....Marxism#History. What's needed is a more technologically developed society with the understanding that for communism to really work and be a great blessing it must be based on God's law and Christ's teachings with an ethos of mercy being emphasized to offset the social and psychological sadism of today.

Notice Erich Fromm's description of the problem of sadism in society. In a short article entitled Erich Fromm On Human Aggression appearing in Readings in Abnormal Psychology: Contemporary Perspectives (1976-77 edition) he says:

Permit me to say something about the sadistic charac­ter. There it depends, above all, on what one means by sadism. Freud—and it is popularly understood to be so extensively—understands sadism to be essentially a sex­ual phenomenon. On this point he finds support in the generally known fact that, for many people—apparently, for men more than for women, but that is again very uncertain—sexual excitement and sexual satisfaction are connected with it, when they torture another person, in­flict pain on him, insult him or humble him. Now Freud has explained that sadism is a partial drive of sexuality that corresponds to an early stage of development of the libi­do, which then, however, has been produced indepen­dently in the case of certain people for certain reasons, and expresses either the entire content or at least an essential part of their sexual desires.

According to my view, sadism is a much more general phenomenon than that described by Freud. At the nucleus of sadism, I see the passion to control another being, that is, to completely control, to have in my power, to do with him what I will, to be, so to speak, his God, to be almighty. This situation is realized in the form of injuring someone else, to humble him physically, so that he cannot defend himself. With sadism, it must be that the other person is helpless and weak. Sadism never has a strong person as an object. One could clearly see that in the case of the Nazis; one can see that generally in sadistic psychology, that which is attractive is power over the weak. The strong one is admired, the weak one stimulates.

Naturally, there are also many other forms of complete control that are not necessarily those of physical pain or of manifest humiliation. You will find many sadistic man­ifestations in relationships between people that are based on the situation where one possesses complete control over the other. You see that in the case of parents, teach­ers, nurses, prison guards and, to a large degree, in the case of people who are in an elevated position or social situation, the kind in which one has power over others. And he who has the power uses it in order to control others. The rough forms of sadism, in that one is beaten, injured bodily or reviled, those are naturally the clearest expressions and manifestations of sadism. But they are perhaps not even the most important at all. The most important are to be found in the relationships between people: they are the attempts of one person to gain om­nipotence over others.

One can recognize a person with sadistic character quite easily: he is unfriendly, unloving, in the final analy­sis unsure, unproductive, he feels himself debased, and all that matters to him is to control everything and every­body, just as far as he can. Take a simple example: you see a postal official behind the counter; at 6:00 p.m. he goes off duty. It is shortly before 6:00, there are still two people standing there who have been waiting for a long time. But exactly at 6:00 p.m. he closes his counter and goes away. If you look at this person closer you will per­haps see around his thin lips a quite slight tinge of a smile of maliciousness or of enjoyment, because he has the power to compel these people to return the next day, and they have stood in line in vain.



As you might of noticed if you read my article, I never broached the subject of atheist communism under Marxist philosophy. Thanks for reminding me this should be done. I'm hoping to make improvements in the article - possibly even write a book some day whenever I can improve my writing skills sufficiently to do so.

And, also, thanks for giving me a bite on this thread. I didn't think anybody was going to. ;)

Edited by elijah3, 19 December 2007 - 02:53 PM.


#5 spaceistheplace

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 03:10 PM

the old communism was union by force. we need union by love.

#6 william7

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 03:56 PM

the old communism was union by force. we need union by love.

I agree 100 percent. And, it will take young people like yourself to take hold of the idea and advocate the benefits - such as greater lifespans and conservation of resources - that will follow from the new Christian communism.

#7 braz

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 03:18 AM

That won't work... The problem is the human nature. Communism is a utopian idea, in which members of the society have to behave in a very specific way, foregoing such qualities as greed, strival for dominance, separation into classes, along with many other things which are inherited from our evolutionary past. Some qualities of the human nature can be subdued to a greater or lesser extent, but they would never be eliminated fully without redesigning the humankind genetically... I think that you, Elijah, and others similar to you in their mindstructure, could live and flourish under the concept of Christian Communism, but it wouldn't work so well for others. What is essentially most important, and most obvious to you is, I'm quite sure, completely opposite and unnatural to others. For most people on this forum, Christianity is nothing but a myth, with some moral laws derived from it. Do you honestly believe that you know what's best for the humankind? Can it really work out for everyone?

The problem goes both ways. For immortalists, the primary concern is to establish ways for an unlimited physical existance, the idea which is quite alien to most humans on the planet. Yet, this is what immortalists are striving for, due to their own mindstructure, shaped by genetics, surroundings, and past experiences. Each particular group will be striving the shift the opinions of others to their own, by tapping into things which are mutual to everyone, since we all are humans. We can't predicit with complete certainty, whose ideas will take over, but yet we can hope and believe =) What has been going on for quite a white is you attempting to influence others with your ideas, and others attempting to influence you with their own. As we can see, no real result has been achieved, but nonetheless it's an important observation. That's why the difference in opinions is appreciated by nearly all civilized societies and groups.

#8 william7

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Posted 21 December 2007 - 02:41 AM

Communism is a utopian idea, in which members of the society have to behave in a very specific way, foregoing such qualities as greed, strival for dominance, separation into classes, along with many other things which are inherited from our evolutionary past.

Then you do agree that communism is a worthy goal and that greed, strival for dominance, and the separation into classes are human behaviors that humanity desperately needs to overcome in a big way?

Some qualities of the human nature can be subdued to a greater or lesser extent, but they would never be eliminated fully without redesigning the humankind genetically...

Can you direct me to some scientific research that says human nature is so unmalleable and impervious to learning that genetic modification is the only possible route? You would think that, even if genetic modification was the only solution, a model of right behavior would still be necessary (or useful) to conform to after such genetic modification took place.

I believe the ethnographic record shows that human nature is sufficiently malleable and capable of successfully adapting to a Christian communistic society where greed, strival for dominance, separation into classes, and all forms of sadism - physical, psychological and social - have been eliminated.

Do you honestly believe that you know what's best for the humankind? Can it really work out for everyone?

No, I don't know what's best for humankind, but God and the Bible does. Yes, if done correctly, a new Christianity, the one the Bible actually teaches, can provide the framework to lift humanity out of its self-destructive condition and enable it to live in peace and harmony on earth. These are conditions absolutely necessary for humanity to take hold of the increasingly dangerous technologies on futures horizon (I mention in the article above) so substantially increased lifespans and immortality can be achieved. It won't work anyother way.

The problem goes both ways. For immortalists, the primary concern is to establish ways for an unlimited physical existance, the idea which is quite alien to most humans on the planet. Yet, this is what immortalists are striving for, due to their own mindstructure, shaped by genetics, surroundings, and past experiences. Each particular group will be striving the shift the opinions of others to their own, by tapping into things which are mutual to everyone, since we all are humans. We can't predicit with complete certainty, whose ideas will take over, but yet we can hope and believe =)

I'm for programming an AI to be loving and merciful according to the Scriptures and to help humanity follow God's laws and Christ's teachings to the fullest within a communal setting. This way the technology necessary for achieving immortality can be safely utilized. After watching the videos below, I've become thoroughly convinced this is what must be done to be successful.

Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence

Surviving the Singularity


What has been going on for quite a white is you attempting to influence others with your ideas, and others attempting to influence you with their own. As we can see, no real result has been achieved, but nonetheless it's an important observation. That's why the difference in opinions is appreciated by nearly all civilized societies and groups.

I have been greatly influenced by this website and these forums. I've spent a lot of time here since I got out of prison and learned much. I'm now doing time with God and the Immortality Institute. :)

#9 jaydfox

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Posted 21 December 2007 - 05:14 AM

For what it's worth, I have doubts that such a practice could flourish in the "real world". By the "real world", I mean one in which God doesn't exist. In other words, in a world where people like yourself believe in Christ, and others don't, it all boils down to whether Christ truly does exist. Your faith doesn't matter if he doesn't. It does matter if he does. For such a system would fail, human nature being what it is, without divine guidance. Even then, it would take a strong nucleus of true followers to pull it off.

With my LDS background, I liken this idea to the "Law of Consecration", which has various meanings in the LDS faith. The one I'm more familiar with is this idea of a righteous society having all things in common, with no one puffing himself above others, and no one left hungry, naked, or without shelter. It's one of the highest laws an individual and a society can live, but the law is not in effect in our day, and won't be until the Second Coming of Christ.

#10 Brainbox

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Posted 21 December 2007 - 06:03 AM

No country has ever been able to establish communism.


That's good.

It doesn't fit human psychology. Human nature should be changed first to allow something like that to be possible to flourish.
How could that be accomplished? By force? Burn the individuals that do not comply? Build huge walls?

I will not comply since I like my individual freedom.

The fact that early and current forms of religion were / are oppressive says it all. If humans were intrinsic religious beings, no oppressive religions would ever have existed. Evolution is against any form of totalitarian dogmatic mono-form of society /government.

Pluriformity is the key to success. Diversity, the biological form of this being the basis, is something to preserve. Oh well, it will preserve itself, don't worry.... :)

Edited by brainbox, 21 December 2007 - 06:09 AM.


#11 Kalepha

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Posted 21 December 2007 - 04:18 PM

If humans were intrinsic religious beings, no oppressive religions would ever have existed. Evolution is against any form of totalitarian dogmatic mono-form of society /government.

Along that line, when being an ascetic infinitesimal hypertasking mind becomes an obvious lifestyle choice of communosingularitarians, one will wonder what all that grandiose ritualism was for, unless of course every quantum op must still be dedicated to describe, merely, the incorrect sins which are prohibited underneath the infinite layers of security in another Hubble volume.

#12 william7

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Posted 22 December 2007 - 12:19 AM

For such a system would fail, human nature being what it is, without divine guidance. Even then, it would take a strong nucleus of true followers to pull it off.

I'm game if you are. What do you say? If we do it right, we'll get the divine guidance and protection we need. You could talk to the right people about this I'm sure.

With my LDS background, I liken this idea to the "Law of Consecration", which has various meanings in the LDS faith. The one I'm more familiar with is this idea of a righteous society having all things in common, with no one puffing himself above others, and no one left hungry, naked, or without shelter. It's one of the highest laws an individual and a society can live, but the law is not in effect in our day, and won't be until the Second Coming of Christ.

Doesn't LDS believe in an Elijah to come to pave or prepare the way for Jesus Christ's Second Coming? The Jews wait on Elijah to appear before the Messiah comes based on Malachi 4:5-6 (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah), and some in the Churches of God movement do too. Some believe Herbert W. Armstrong was the Elijah to come. See, for example, http://groups.yahoo....up/elijahforum/, and http://www.thetrumpe...book&q=34.6.0.6. The Elijah Interfaith Institute is, I believe, an organization attempting to fulfil the Elijah prophecy. See http://www.elijah.org.il/.

Any AI should be programmed to fulfil the Elijah prophecy as stated in Malachi 4:5-6; Matthew 17:10-13 ("restores all things"); 19:28 ("renewal of all things"); Acts 3:19-21 (God to restore everything before Christ's return).

The things I believe need to be restored are as follows:

1) Christian communism as I point out in the above article which will strengthen the family unit turning the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers thereby fulfilling the Elijah prophecy of Malachi 4:5-6.

2) Restoring the vegan diet as it was in the beginning. See Genesis 1:29-31. This will also fulfill the prophecy in Isaiah 11:6-9; 65:25; Hosea 2:18.

3) Restoring the Holy Days - including the seventh day Sabbath - God gave Moses to give to Israel as stated in Leviticus 23:1-44 within a communal setting like the early Christian Church in Acts practiced. Acts 4:32-35. No animal sacrifices will be necessary since Jesus was our final sacrifice for sin. Hebrews 10:1-18; John 1:29. If Christian communism is practiced mercifully as I state above, we'll be able to teach our children to internalize God's law so well there will no longer be a need for punishment or an animal sacrifice for sin. This will fulfill the prophecy in Ezekiel 11:19-20; Jeremiah 31:33 as well as Malachi 4:5-6.

#13 william7

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Posted 22 December 2007 - 12:54 AM

How could that be accomplished? By force? Burn the individuals that do not comply? Build huge walls?

Of course not. Only God and Christ have the authority to use force in the matter. Our job is to put the teachings into practice and to live such exemplary lives that others will want to emulate us.

I will not comply since I like my individual freedom.

You need to read B.F. Skinner's book Beyond Freedom and Dignity. See http://en.wikipedia....dom_and_Dignity.

The fact that early and current forms of religion were / are oppressive says it all. If humans were intrinsic religious beings, no oppressive religions would ever have existed. Evolution is against any form of totalitarian dogmatic mono-form of society /government.

Show me the science and the math that says an enlightened and humane religion can never be established to replace the false and oppressive religions.

Pluriformity is the key to success. Diversity, the biological form of this being the basis, is something to preserve. Oh well, it will preserve itself, don't worry....

There'll be plenty of "pluriformity" and "diversity" of the right type within a Christian communist society. The wrong type will not flourish

#14 jaydfox

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Posted 22 December 2007 - 01:18 AM

Doesn't LDS believe in an Elijah to come to pave or prepare the way for Jesus Christ's Second Coming?

Sadly enough, I'm not as versed on LDS doctrine and history as I should be, given how long I've been a member of the LDS Church. I should mention at this point that I've been at various times inactive, i.e., not believing, including now, but the religion still interests me. Of the organized Christian religions, it's the only one that strikes me as having any chance of being the "right" one, so I've tried to give it my attention, even when I had my doubts.

I do recall that Elijah restored the keys of the sealing power to Joseph Smith in the 1830's, and those keys are still active today. The keys are used in LDS temples to seal families together, thus turning the hearts of the children to the hearts of the fathers, etc. This includes work for the dead (see for example, 1 Corinthians 15:29), allowing those who never heard the message of Christ the opportunity to be saved and sealed to their families.

But I'm not sure if Elijah is supposed to visit us yet again before the Second Coming.

Any AI should be programmed to fulfil the Elijah prophecy as stated in Malachi 4:5-6; Matthew 17:10-13 ("restores all things"); 19:28 ("renewal of all things"); Acts 3:19-21 (God to restore everything before Christ's return).

Hmm, to me it seems that Elijah's return should be literal, so I don't see an AI as necessary.

#15 william7

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Posted 22 December 2007 - 03:47 AM

But I'm not sure if Elijah is supposed to visit us yet again before the Second Coming.

Malachi 4:5-6 says:

"See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse."

Many people who seriously contemplate the above verses acknowledge that the great and dreadful day of the Lord hasn't occurred yet. When John the Baptist, in the spirit and power of Elijah, paved the way for Jesus at His first appearance, he didn't completely fullfil the prophecy in Malachi 4:5-6 and didn't restore all things. Notice Luke 1:11-17 and Matthew 17:10-13. Both John the Baptist and Jesus Christ's lives were cut short.

Hmm, to me it seems that Elijah's return should be literal, so I don't see an AI as necessary.

May be Elijah could help program the AI to restore what needs to be restored and to prepare the people for the Second Coming. It's my belief, that Jesus Christ at His Second Coming will not destroy science and technology or banish its use during the Millennium. Instead, He'll greatly enhance its use making it a blessing and not a curse or a threat as it is in many cases today. A properly programmed AI could be of great service to both Elijah and Jesus Christ. Give it some thought.

#16 braz

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Posted 24 December 2007 - 07:43 AM

Then you do agree that communism is a worthy goal and that greed, strival for dominance, and the separation into classes are human behaviors that humanity desperately needs to overcome in a big way?


I agree that such qualities should not be acclaimed and cherished, but i don't believe that they should be completely eliminated. After all, such qualities are a part of what makes us human. I think that greed, aggression, and such should be controlled and directed towards the ahchievement of both the individual and common good. I don't believe that communism can work out for the vast majority of individuals on this planet. Being born in USSR, I remember very well the povetry and destruction that communism brought forth. Despite the official policy, the vast majority of the USSR population was religious, but it was the system that was ruining it for almost everyone.

Can you direct me to some scientific research that says human nature is so unmalleable and impervious to learning that genetic modification is the only possible route? You would think that, even if genetic modification was the only solution, a model of right behavior would still be necessary (or useful) to conform to after such genetic modification took place.


When you talk about scientific proof, how about you show some in favor of a Christian God and Christian Communism? I don't think that's quite possible, just like it's not really possible to carry out a social structure experiment in a laboratory. I think that by looking over the history of mankind we can say with complete certainty that humans are not altruistic and unselfish.

I believe the ethnographic record shows that human nature is sufficiently malleable and capable of successfully adapting to a Christian communistic society where greed, strival for dominance, separation into classes, and all forms of sadism - physical, psychological and social - have been eliminated.


If you believe that humanity can live most happily under the force of illusions, unsupported claims, and numerous promises while at the same time following a strict pattern of allowed behavior, then Christian Communism is the way to go. Looking forth to next point:


No, I don't know what's best for humankind, but God and the Bible does. Yes, if done correctly, a new Christianity, the one the Bible actually teaches, can provide the framework to lift humanity out of its self-destructive condition and enable it to live in peace and harmony on earth. These are conditions absolutely necessary for humanity to take hold of the increasingly dangerous technologies on futures horizon (I mention in the article above) so substantially increased lifespans and immortality can be achieved. It won't work anyother way.


You still believe that you know what's best for mankind by proclaiming that it's the word of God and the Bible (or rather modified versions of both.) On what grounds can you raionalize your claims that your views are superior to, say, an athiest humanist?


I'm for programming an AI to be loving and merciful according to the Scriptures and to help humanity follow God's laws and Christ's teachings to the fullest within a communal setting. This way the technology necessary for achieving immortality can be safely utilized. After watching the videos below, I've become thoroughly convinced this is what must be done to be successful.


I agree with you on the point that AI has be loving and merciful for the benefit of humanity, but it shouldn't be based on any of Scriptures.


I have been greatly influenced by this website and these forums. I've spent a lot of time here since I got out of prison and learned much. I'm now doing time with God and the Immortality Institute. ;)


I am glad to hear that =)

#17 Andy

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Posted 25 December 2007 - 01:29 AM

Which God? Thor...Zeus...Mirthra?

Or is it Jesus, the latest personification of the sun? What kind of nutjob would want to cannibalize a Jewish zombie anyway? BARF

Communism is evil by nature as it requires the initiation of force against the innocent. (Man...some people need a history lesson) Only in the abscense of initiatory force can one be truly free. Only lassaie-faire provides these conditions. Communists are sick control freaks. Arrogant and condescending elitists.

I think much of the thinking of the left is rooted in self loathing and envy of the value producers. Communism tries to make everyone equal. Well guess what cousin...people are NOT equal. Grow up and deal with it. Humans are NOT, I repeat, NOT created equal. Of course I think everyone should be treated equally under law...but the more you try to use INITIATORY FORCE to make us equal (unnatural) the result is that we're all equally miserable and subject to your whims.

http://www.celebratecapitalism.org
http://www.discoveraristotle.com/ (Aristotle, father of the business mind. I love this guy...the absolute antithisis of Plato, father of the criminal mind)
http://discoverthomasjefferson.com/

Edited by Andy, 25 December 2007 - 01:32 AM.


#18 william7

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Posted 25 December 2007 - 02:43 AM

I agree that such qualities should not be acclaimed and cherished, but i don't believe that they should be completely eliminated. After all, such qualities are a part of what makes us human.


Greed and aggression are what make us inhuman. Once we can get past these negative qualities and bury them in some small corner of the psyche and keep them there, then we'll be on the road to bigger and better things in science and technology and longevity.

I think that greed, aggression, and such should be controlled and directed towards the ahchievement of both the individual and common good.

Then you must believe in some type of reformed capitalism or a so-called free enterprise system with regulations. Even if you were able to put a leash on the capitalist beast, it would always be straining on it in an effort to break free. And, as so frequently happens, the beast breaks the leash and does some serious damage.

I don't believe that communism can work out for the vast majority of individuals on this planet. Being born in USSR, I remember very well the povetry and destruction that communism brought forth. Despite the official policy, the vast majority of the USSR population was religious, but it was the system that was ruining it for almost everyone.

What you experienced in the USSR was not communism. The USSR wanted to be a communist state, but never reached that stage of development. Under communism, there is no system of money and no wage slavery. There is not suppose to be a specially privileged class exploiting and oppressing others beneath them.

The socialist workers literature I use to read back in the 1980s would always denounce the USSR and say it was either practicing bureaucratic collectivism or practicing state capitalism.

When you talk about scientific proof, how about you show some in favor of a Christian God and Christian Communism? I don't think that's quite possible, just like it's not really possible to carry out a social structure experiment in a laboratory. I think that by looking over the history of mankind we can say with complete certainty that humans are not altruistic and unselfish.


We're talking about the genetic modification of human behavior here. Where did this "social structure experiment" stuff enter the picture?

If you believe that humanity can live most happily under the force of illusions, unsupported claims, and numerous promises while at the same time following a strict pattern of allowed behavior, then Christian Communism is the way to go. Looking forth to next point:

I can't see any better system than Christian Communism to educate man how to live cooperatively and peacefully. To put the extremely dangerous technologies of the future in the hands of a people who are still living uncooperatively and unpeacefully would be pure folly. All that science fiction horror stuff would come true.

On what grounds can you raionalize your claims that your views are superior to, say, an athiest humanist?

Not my views but what the Scriptures say. I've yet to see a better plan than God's plan outlined in the Bible for ameliorating the human condition. It's going to take fundamental changes that go to the heart of the problem. The Bible plan deals with the problem at all levels. Most importantly it seeks to transform and strengthen the human character instead of just the economy or the political system.

I agree with you on the point that AI has be loving and merciful for the benefit of humanity, but it shouldn't be based on any of Scriptures.

The Bible has the best materials to program an AI to be loving and merciful so it can help all of humanity to practice the new forms of psychospiritual devotion needed to live cooperatively and peaceably in order to keep greed and aggression firmly in check. If there's a better plan, I would like to see it. I plan to vote for a biblically programmed AI if we're allowed to democratically choose how the AI will be programmed.

#19 william7

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Posted 25 December 2007 - 04:08 AM

Man...some people need a history lesson

Wikipedia says:

"The communist society Marx envisioned emerging from capitalism has never been implemented, and it remains theoretical;" http://en.wikipedia....nism#Background

So, if communism has never been implemented and remains only theoretical, how could all these evils been done under it you mention? What really happened was a band of atheist wolves in sheep's clothing practicing doublethink devised a scheme to take power and exploit the working class, and now communism, which has never before been implemented, has a bad name.

No hostile and deceptive propaganda please. Just straightforward honest answer.

#20 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 26 December 2007 - 09:49 PM

Greed and aggression are what make us inhuman. Once we can get past these negative qualities and bury them in some small corner of the psyche and keep them there, then we'll be on the road to bigger and better things in science and technology and longevity.


I do not think this is possible without sacrificing desire, which motivates most of us to do positive (and some negative) things in life.
Now if you can associate some happy chemical addiction with God and communism, maybe you can succeed at some level... But not for those that would control the new religion. I can still see it fall to pieces because of politics.

Greed and aggression have their place. You can probably transcend them for a short while, each person using a different method such as meditation, pathwork, reading the bible, chanting mantras, solving equations, watching start trek reruns and the like... but your stomach will start to grumble, the desire for food will get you moving, and you will need to stop your spiritual / mental feeding... and start feeding your body physically.

Christian communism ultimately relies on everyone having the same perspective, and none having uniqueness. I do not debate the religious aspect of it, what I see fault is in the belief that they could co-exist successfully. Both are very idealistic, but only one really has a method of dealing with human frailty, and it's not communism.

Keep the religion, but pure communism will just not work... people get bored and do stupid things, then things break down from there.

a

#21 william7

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Posted 27 December 2007 - 03:55 AM

but your stomach will start to grumble, the desire for food will get you moving, and you will need to stop your spiritual / mental feeding... and start feeding your body physically.

Our big hope is that present and future technology under communal control will make it possible to keep us in the necessaries of life - including food - so we can continue the spiritual feeding unabated. The temporary success of Israel's kibbutz program - before it fell away into capitalistic pursuits - gives us much hope of success with advances in technology and in the Christian religion on the horizon.

Christian communism ultimately relies on everyone having the same perspective, and none having uniqueness. ... Keep the religion, but pure communism will just not work... people get bored and do stupid things, then things break down from there.

Under pure Christian communism, there will still be uniqueness. Art, literature, sports, and recreation will still exist where people will be able to be creative and exhibit uniqueness in skill and ability. People will learn to adapt to simpler pleasures and to be satisfied. Especially if they understand it is absolutely necessary for the survival of humanity that they do so.

#22 eternaltraveler

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Posted 27 December 2007 - 01:40 PM

and what if I don't want to be part of your christian communism? What then?

#23 Brainbox

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Posted 27 December 2007 - 11:13 PM

Oh man, deja-vu all over again.... :-D

Certain angles of view do result in an inevitable recursive compulsive resonance feedback effect that evidently is very hard to compensate for.
Although, uhm, would just looking the other way help maybe....?

Attached Files



#24 Lazarus Long

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 12:40 AM

Does anyone remember that one of the basic tenets of Marxism (as defined by Karl) was "From each according to their ability to each according to their need"?

Who gets to determine need?

The individual or the group?

And again; who gets to be the final arbiter for ability?

The individual or the group?

Does the group get to determine what individual aspirations should be based on the claimed needs of leadership or does an individual get to make such a determination for individual aspiration based on the perceptions and beliefs of the individual?

Oh and Elijah please don't just start quoting scripture. Your ideas of Christian Communism are your personal invention. Back when the collective was theologically based in biblical times it was predicated on a family centered tribalism so it is time you started addressing *apples and apples* for this idea. I have suspected you are talking about tribalism all along but you seem to think that the humans can become a single tribe under Christianity, even though all the evidence of history demonstrates that this is simply your personal idealistic fantasy.

I will add there are even more serious drawbacks to your plan. Another is the simple problem that you have forgotten one very central aspect of Marxism, again as defined by Karl and that is that "religion is the opiate of the masses."

Karl Marx was advocating using the addictive properties of humanity's faith system into intentionally manipulate the masses into what he perceived was a better more enlightened *secular* society. The critical factor that Karl and you are working with however is the idea of creating a common addiction that is essentially *state* controlled. The similarity between your idea of religion as politics and Karl's idea of politics as religion, is the idea of a single drug to hook everyone in the world on to create a common bond of experience. Karl Marx anticipated the characteristics of human psychology now better understood and called *Evolutionary Psychology*.

It is not even too far from Huxley's idea of *soma* as the single addictive drug for humanity in Brave New World.

Ironically the only real difference in what we have today is that between the illegal drugs of a secular society and politics as religion is our secular rule for freedom of religion that means that the state " ...shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

BTW one more thing and don't take this to assume I share your belief in the bible old or new, or more importantly Christianity's mythical basis.

This is just simply a POV on human nature.

It hasn't improved all that much in 2000 years We are not that different from then psychosocially though our social norms have improved marginally.

The chances of you getting people today to agree on any form of religious doctrine is far less likely than 2000 years ago and it was obviously slim to none then. We are less religious today than then as a species though I grant only marginally so. It is still the case that the average person simply substitutes politics, economics, science and technology for their inculcated belief structure. Note this is not because science is a religion, nor treated as a religion by the scientists that practice it but because people need a belief structure the way an addict needs drugs.

If you really want to help them then help getting them to kick the habit.

Especially because the second aspect of your prophetic vision I lament is that if it were even remotely feasible for your messiah to return I would warn him off.

These people killed him before and they would do it again religiously.

If there really is a Jesus you should realize he doesn't want us to rely on him to save us for that just means we have learned nothing in two millennium. If he existed and was truly loving then like a good parent he would want us to work together to make his welcome a simple and safe one, where not only are we safe from one another but he is safe from us. If your god was a worthy one then he would encourage us to make his second coming unnecessary, not one where he fosters more opiate addicted mindless worshipers.

Karl Marx advocated making a religion of science to replace and unify all religions into one religion that holds the state supreme, not merely a state religion. All you are advocating is the same thing but picking sides. You don't just want Christianity, you want your particular sect of Christianity to reign supreme.

#25 william7

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 03:49 AM

and what if I don't want to be part of your christian communism? What then?

If you last right up to Jesus Christ's Second Coming and you still refuse to see the light, you end up as bird food. Revelation 19:11-18.

You should have no problem loving humanity as you love yourself and with the same strength as you love God. Matthew 22:36-40. These commandments lead to communism because serious Christians who love their follow man too the greatest extent possible will want to put an end to class antagonisms and share everything so nobody has any need and there's no longer any conflicts as a result. This is the most merciful way to live.

#26 eternaltraveler

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 03:39 PM

good thing Jesus isn't coming back (assuming the biblical Jesus even existed at all, which is in itself much in doubt)

#27 eternaltraveler

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 03:43 PM

well the "biblical" Jesus as in walking on water and doing miracles virtually certainly did not exist. However there isn't a single contemporary account of a historical Jesus that was anywhere near as important as the bible makes out. And the romans and Jews both generally kept fairly good records.

#28 william7

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 04:18 PM

Does anyone remember that one of the basic tenets of Marxism (as defined by Karl) was "From each according to their ability to each according to their need"?

Who gets to determine need?

The individual or the group?

And again; who gets to be the final arbiter for ability?

The individual or the group?

Elders councils, utilizing democratic principles, who will be living by the same guidelines they determine. The big difference the elders councils under Christian Communism will have from the democratic councils employed by the communal groups of today will be that the Christian Communists will be required to determine whether the guidelines they formulate comport with God's commandments and Christ's teachings.

Back when the collective was theologically based in biblical times it was predicated on a family centered tribalism so it is time you started addressing *apples and apples* for this idea. I have suspected you are talking about tribalism all along but you seem to think that the humans can become a single tribe under Christianity, even though all the evidence of history demonstrates that this is simply your personal idealistic fantasy.

There was an element of tribalism, as you say, back in Old Testament times. Under Jesus Christ, that has changed. Serious Christians are required to over look tribal connections. Take, for instance, the parable of the good Samaritan in Luke 10:25-37. Jesus made it clear that tribal considerations do not apply and we're to extend mercy to those in need.

Oh and Elijah please don't just start quoting scripture. Your ideas of Christian Communism are your personal invention.

If you read my article at the beginning of this thread and the Wikipedia article on Christian Communism, you'll clearly understand that Christian Communism is no invention of mine. I may have a novel way of enhancing the idea through the application of the Scriptures to the problems of today's world but that's it.

Under a correctly practiced Christian Communism, humanity can learn to be as merciful as Jesus taught and apply this standard of behavior beyond the family unit. If we fail to do this, we will not be able to take hold of those future technologies that will make exceptionally long life and immortality possible.


This is part one of a two part response to your post. I'm being summoned to the 7th viewing of the latest Care Bear video. How well do you know your Care Bears?

#29 Kalepha

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 04:42 PM

Elijah, you've been given so many hints already. Bible study is obsoleted by game/decision theory study. Future technologies don't just depend on the mathematically intensive detail on the level of so-called physics but also on the mathematically intensive detail on the level of consciousness and on the level of systems in general. Your semi-arbitrary heuristics are crude enough to amount to nothing more than keeping your hopes high in barely accurate, highly imprecise design space.

#30 Lazarus Long

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 02:05 AM

Elijah you have answered most inquiry here as expected, a touch of the age old fire brimstone warning, a pinch of you just gotta except it our way and a strong dose of patriarchal elitism; elders council indeed. So we get old and we are automatically wise and powerful?

I really think you are naive. You are looking at how you have reformed and recognize that others can but the fact is that they do not always want to. You really think you can unite even Christians under a single interpretation?

The mistake you are making is that the very idea that there is a single interpretation of the bible is what leads to violence. Read this story:

Priests Brawl Inside Bethlehem Church

Merry Christ's Mass

BTW, I almost forgot the fourth argument you make repeatedly: It ain't their way it's our way. All those others guys have the false interpretation but we have a corner on the truth.

Elijah that route is a dead end. It hasn't worked in all of human history and it isn't going to now. There is no more sure path to violence than trying to create a one size fits all belief system and tell everyone that they have to join or be threatened. Has it occurred to you that the approach you are presenting is a classic example of the road to hell being paved with good intention?




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