38 replies to this topic

[luv2increase]

I was thinking about what Zoolander said to me the other day about risk minimization. It is a no-brainer that the majority of us who browse these forums take a multitude of supplements. Could all these supplements be causing excessive strain on our livers or other bodily processes which could lead to premature death? I only wish that some studies would be or have been done on it. Say, take 10 members who posted on the regimen subforum whom are taking many supplements, get them off supplements for a 2 months wash out period, do every test imaginable yet logical, get them on their regimens again for 2 months, then repeat the tests. The tests would range from IQ tests for cognitive performance, and a full blood panel, MRI, etc... for the bodily health/performance.

I don't know of any studies like this out there. It would be cool to do something like it. Maybe a follow up would be done in 1 years, then 3 years, etc... to establish the long-term safety as well.

If you think about it fervently, we all take many isolated extracts and chemicals which have not been tested to determine the safety of use in conjunction with all the other stuff we consume. The studies we look at show the efficacy and safety of a single substance, sometimes a few or more, within a rat, dog, monkey, what have you. It is very possible, in my opinion, the substances could have a negative reaction when combined with 40 other substances. I also realize that a lot of supps we indulge in, almost like recreational drugs , are naturally found in nature, and the rational thought would be that they are safe. Although many, if not most, of the prescription drugs are synthesized from these 'natural' plants etc..

I think this is just something to think about. In reality, logically speaking, we are all playing with fire. Yes, a lot of members get routine health screens, but it may be the subtle changes happening which pose the most threat. Also, there are so many factors to place in there that it is impossible to tell. I think our only safety net would be, is to get routinely tested. If you have great health insurance, I would get every test available.


edit: Do you all think it would be a great idea to atleast supplement with milk thistle while taking many supps? Maybe this would off-set somewhat the negative, if any, effects it could be having on the liver since the liver will be working overtime all the time? Also, one day a week off every supplement may also help?

Edited by luv2increase, 17 December 2007 - 06:30 PM.

[Athanasios]

Quite right. The best thing you can do is emphasize safety in your regimen, understand the supplements' mechanism of action, work with your doctor, and get blood work done. Since anything we take can cause a butterfly effect in our systems, it is worth it to be conservative.

Edited by cnorwood, 17 December 2007 - 06:32 PM.

[health_nutty]

This post echo's one of my biggest concerns regarding my supplements.

[unbreakable]

I was thinking about what Zoolander said to me the other day about risk minimization. It is a no-brainer that the majority of us who browse these forums take a multitude of supplements. Could all these supplements be causing excessive strain on our livers or other bodily processes which could lead to premature death?

I suggest to have regular blood and urine testing done especially if you take many supplements. If eg. transaminases, creatinine, BUN etc. rise this must be looked at. I take 60 supplements/day, every blood work shows normal/good results.

[zoolander]

I'm glad my point got across Aaron. That's why I only take supplements 5x per week and have 2-4 weeks off per 3 months.

I mentioned in a thread early today that we should all consider buying a blood pressure monitor that measures heart rate.

here's what I said

Re. home diagnostic testing......

I suggest that everyone seriously consider buying a home blood pressure monitor that measures heart rate. Find a time when you are healthy and take triplicut measurements each morning as soon as you wake after a decent nights sleep. Average the triplicut measures out and then average out the 7 days. Use this value of blood pressure and heart rate as your norm.

Take measures once a week. For example, every Sunday morning. If you spot anything unusual then report it to your doctor.

On top of this I get blood work done twice per year.

[unbreakable]

I think the possible risks are much higher if someone is taking really many supplements and combines them with a ton of prescription medications and untested research chemicals which he buys over the internet.

[edward]

I have been thinking a lot about this recently. After studying the pathophysiology of disease and in general what happens when good organs go bad this past semester in school I have come to the conclusion that the major systems we need to be worried about are the hepatic (liver) and renal (kidney).

My first thought as a good supplement addict is well lets see what we can take to protect these systems (ha ha) which is kind of defeating the whole point if you think about it... Lets see what other chemical we can take (that our liver and kidneys will have to deal with, so that we can protect them, crazy huh)... Indulging my addiction a little bit, what I have found is that the best thing for both the liver and kidneys is Milk Thistle (of which I am already taking 2 grams a day) as well as other antioxidants (which I basically have an IV drip of ha ha)

Getting away from supplementing to prevent potential damage from supplementing.... (again this just about sums up our particular problem/neurosis/psychosis)

The liver I personally am less worried about as I do not drink alcohol (accept for my experiment with vodka and T-Res which I am abandoning as my T-Res is micronized enough to remain in colloidal form with either lecithin or PEG). The liver can regenerate and it takes a lot to do sufficient damage and compromise liver function. It is my bet that all the stuff I am ingesting on a whole combined with my very good diet is much less harmful to my liver than the average persons high saturated fat, high calorie, alcohol laden diet.

The real problem I see is with the Renal System (kidneys), the kidneys cannot, I repeat, cannot regenerate, once you lose kidney cells/function there is no way that we know of at present to regrow them/ restore it beside removing chemical insults and even with that, once the damage is done removing the chemical insults will only improve functioning to the capacity of what tissue you have left. Furthermore there are things that cause increased stress to your kidneys: high protein diets and fasting which are pretty relevant to people on this board as well. Btw, if you kidneys become extremely compromised the only alternative is dialysis (dialysis patients have a life expectancy of 5 years after starting dialysis) or a kidney transplant, which is hard to get.

I don't have any answers, but personally again, cutting out alcohol from your diet will leave you with a lot of slack with regards to potential damage to the liver and the kidneys. Also a pristine consistent diet seems to be a positive with regards to liver and kidney function. High protein (of which I have been guilty of) seems to be not so good.

As some one mentioned a Serum Creatinine Test is the best way to determine your GFR (glomerular filtration rate) which is the best way to estimate kidney function. BUN is also helpful. But once you get your Serum Creatinine level you can plug it into this calculator http://www.kidney.or..._calculator.cfm and then you can see what your GFR is. Note that we lose kidney function as we age. Once you get your GFR, refer to the handy table below of normal values per age group. Obviously you want your kidney function to be that of a younger person but if yours is normal for your age group your kidney damage is no more than what would occur with aging, if its not see your doctor. I am not a healthcare practitioner of any sort (yet, and even when I am, accepting advice from even healthcare practitioners over the internet without further exploration is not smart) only a student so please do not take any of this as medical advice, see your doctor. *Note: you need to stop taking oral creatine or whatever form before getting a serum creatinine as this can mess with the values. (note also that although oral creatine has been shown to be beneficial to brain and muscles it is hard on your kidneys, yep greeeaaat)

again get your serum creatinine then go to http://www.kidney.or..._calculator.cfm and look at the chart below. Your doctor will usually do a serum creatinine at each physical but you will have to ask for the values as he/she will generally not mention anything unless the values are very abnormal.


edit: added additional info to this already long post

Edited by edward, 18 December 2007 - 01:14 AM.

[krillin]

Are you sure the calculator is useful for healthy people?

NOTE: The estimated GFR values above 60 mL/min/1.73 m2 should be interpreted as "above 60 mL/min/1.73 m2," not an exact number.

[edward]

Yes, the professor who taught us renal function and pathophysiology recommended that calculator to calculate GFR for healthy normal individuals. People in my class who knew their Serum Creatinine used it and all of them accept one guy who had multiple health problems had GFR in the normal range for their age. The calculator uses a standard equation (which I should remember but forget) that hospitals use to estimate GFR from serum creatinine. The disclaimer is simply because the calculator/equation estimates GFR and does not directly measure it. In order to directly measure it you would have to to a 12-48 hour urine catch (that is pee into a big jug for a set number of hours, the more hours the better, do a urinalysis as well as make note of the total amount of urine) usually patients do not comply with this (unless they have been catheterized and have no choice) so a Serum Creatinine estimated GFR is a quick and dirty (but pretty accurate) way of determining kidney function.

Edited by edward, 18 December 2007 - 04:43 AM.

[resveratrol]

[...] (note also that although oral creatine has been shown to be beneficial to brain and muscles it is hard on your kidneys, yep greeeaaat) [...]

Edward, can you quantify this damage any further? I've been taking creatine monohydrate for some time to help enhance the effects of resistance training, maintain muscle mass when I'm not weightlifting, and for its cognitive enhancement effects ... Is this potential for kidney damage a dose-dependent effect, or is there a threshold at which the creatine becomes dangerous?

[niner]

Glycation is probably playing a major role in kidney function decline with age among "healthy" people. Diabetics are prone to nephropathy, and AGE breakers (ALT-711) have shown promise here. A low glycation lifestyle (avoid fast carbs, use glycation inhibitors [benfotiamine, pyridoxamine, carnosine...]) would probably be a good way to maintain kidney function.

[krillin]

http://www.acponline...ct06/kidney.htm

The estimated GFR equation works well in patients with kidney disease, but is less accurate in people without kidney disease, she explained. Specifically, a reading of 70 may mean that someone without kidney disease really has a GFR of 80, “but it doesn’t matter if they are 70 or 80 if there is no other evidence of kidney damage.

Play around with the calculator and see what she means. I plug in my 0.9 mg/dL and get a GFR of 102 mL/min/1.73 m2. Nice. But a 1.0 would give me a 90. Time to freak out. Is the creatinine test's uncertainty low enough for this calculation to mean anything for the healthy?

[zoolander]

Holy Moly Edward. What's with the scare tactics?

Re. too much protein being hard on the kidneys...let's put this into context. The too much protein in healthy individuals that you are talking about would be something along the lines of four times the RDA for an extended period of time. I do not think that anyone here has to be overly concerned about consuming too much protein unless they already have compromised kidney function.

Re. creatine placing an extra load on the kidney...this information came from a case study (case study=one person) quite a few years back where a male with kidney disease was consuming creatine and the creatine was found to aggravate his condition. Creatine has not been shown to aggravate or stress the kidney in healthy individuals.

Edward you are experiencing the signs and symptoms of studying pathophysiology.
The signs and symptoms include:
-Shit I have that disease,
-I've got a lump there
-I fit that definition of disease
and so on.

Most people I know that have taken pathophysiology display similar signs and symptoms

[edward]

http://www.acponline...ct06/kidney.htm

The estimated GFR equation works well in patients with kidney disease, but is less accurate in people without kidney disease, she explained. Specifically, a reading of 70 may mean that someone without kidney disease really has a GFR of 80, “but it doesn’t matter if they are 70 or 80 if there is no other evidence of kidney damage.

Play around with the calculator and see what she means. I plug in my 0.9 mg/dL and get a GFR of 102 mL/min/1.73 m2. Nice. But a 1.0 would give me a 90. Time to freak out. Is the creatinine test's uncertainty low enough for this calculation to mean anything for the healthy?

I read the article you mentioned and I understand what the author is saying. Basically she is advocating a reform of the policy to use GFR as estimated by Serum Creatinine, which makes sense as of course it is not the whole picture but it is a very good starting point to see if you kidney function is within a normal range, any border line values and you should go get further tests. The case she mentions about a hypothetical patient having a decent serum creatinine level but also kidney damage is not a normal situation. It could occur with a patient who was bed ridden and eating very little. Creatinine levels will rise with physical activity and food consumption until they level off based upon your kidneys kicking in to keep them at a low level. It is this low level that the test is measuring. Basically how low your kidneys can keep your creatinine levels with a normal diet and normal activity (you and I are not confined to a hospital bed and don't have anorexic symptoms) so arguably it would be a better test on us healthy individuals than on people in hospitals with multiple other issues that could influence levels. Btw serum levels with differences of 0.1mg/dL can be signifigant as we are talking about levels of substance in the blood which are by nature tiny.

edit: grammer

Edited by edward, 18 December 2007 - 06:33 AM.

[edward]

Holy Moly Edward. What's with the scare tactics?

Re. too much protein being hard on the kidneys...let's put this into context. The too much protein in healthy individuals that you are talking about would be something along the lines of four times the RDA for an extended period of time. I do not think that anyone here has to be overly concerned about consuming too much protein unless they already have compromised kidney function.

Re. creatine placing an extra load on the kidney...this information came from a case study (case study=one person) quite a few years back where a male with kidney disease was consuming creatine and the creatine was found to aggravate his condition. Creatine has not been shown to aggravate or stress the kidney in healthy individuals.

Edward you are experiencing the signs and symptoms of studying pathophysiology.
The signs and symptoms include:
-Shit I have that disease,
-I've got a lump there
-I fit that definition of disease
and so on.

Most people I know that have taken pathophysiology display similar signs and symptoms

You are probably right to a certain extent, but I was responding to the topic, which I think is a good one on the long term effects of taking, in my case a hundred or so additional "chemicals" that most people do not consume on a daily basis, and from what I have studied I am confident that I have no diseases and my diet/lifestyle/supplementation is benefiting every system of my body accept for perhaps my liver and kidneys which if I had to pick something to be worried about it would be the kidneys. But I am in no way worried just becoming hyper aware of the potential for the problem. I didn't mean to scare anyone, just voicing my own concerns and showing a tool to estimate your GFR so that you can see if you should be worried or not.

Ask any doctor about high protein diets and their effect on kidney function, extremely high protein not just a protein rich diet

As far as creatine there have been more than just a case study. Here is a for instance rat study.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....;indexed=google

[markymark]

As far as creatine there have been more than just a case study. Here is a for instance rat study.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....;indexed=google

I would be very careful, sorry to be so clear here, before spreading hoaxes about creatine.

get this, it is open source:
International Society of Sports Nutrition position stand: creatine supplementation and exercise.
J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2007 Aug 30;4:6.
PMID: 17908288 [PubMed - in process]

Edited by markymark, 18 December 2007 - 08:03 AM.

[zoolander]

I posted that position stand a few months back. Thanks for pointing it out again.

Edward define high protein in terms of g/kg per day.

[unbreakable]

Many supplements have shown to be hepatoprotective (silymarin, SAMe, PPC, ALA, NAC) and renoprotective (several antioxidants and anti-glycation agents).

Edited by unbreakable, 18 December 2007 - 12:01 PM.

[edward]

Yes another reason why I am pretty sure my liver is "happy". I wasn't aware that AGE preventing agents and breakers could positively affect renal function (any references?) seems logical though. Antioxidants (including Milk Thistle) were the only pro kidney supplements I could find that had anything to back them up.

I don't want to get into some kind of online war here. All that I have been saying was that caution is warranted. This is my last post on this issue because apparently I have hit a nerve and emotionally arguments are not something I like to engage in. As far as creatine again there is enough information to be cautious (*note I still take Creatine though I now have decided to take a two day break each week).

Here is a reference for the effect of high protein on kidney function http://www.nature.co.../ki1990103a.pdf
Zoolander, I wish I could define at what level of protein in g/kg is problematic for a healthy person but anything would be a guess as there is no data, only data with regards to people in renal failure.

edit: It seems, and this is just an observation, that anyone with information about potential problems about supplements is held to a higher standard of proof (and emotionally flared criticism) than people claiming unbelievable benefits. Just a thought. On that note I am ceasing and desisting this line of discussion.

Edited by edward, 18 December 2007 - 02:08 PM.

[Shepard]

edward, as an observer of this thread, it doesn't seem like anyone has become emotional. It's simply a case of people asking for proof that your concerns are valid. And zoolander's point is quite accurate in that examining what occurs in a pathophysiological state is not a good indicator of what goes on in healthy people.

[markymark]

@edward,
I did not intend to be unpolite too.

I am even going off creatine every other month ;-) for a whole month and will do so my entire life, unless solid data will make adjustments necessary.

But I insist calling it an alarmistic hoax to cite an animal study on rats with cystic kidney disease and equal it to the habbits of life extensionists (using say 2-4 g/day of creatine).
this was in fact a Sprague-Dawley-(SPRD)-cy-rat-with-cystic-kidney-disease-study using 2g/Kg-body-wt and not just "a rat study"

regs
MM

[hamishm00]

Interesting....

Modafinil seriously affects urine with me. 600mg has quite a distinct effect. This worries me quite a lot.

Edited by hamishm00, 18 December 2007 - 05:41 PM.

[zoolander]

That applies to me as well. You haven't hit any nerves edward you are just exaggerating and I'm simply taking you to task because I strongly disagree. You are making the claims and hence the onus of proof is on you to provide references for your claims.

Re. creatine...after a loading phase for a week all that is needed is just enough to replace daily creatine clearance, which is about 2g/day.

Hamishm00, the recommended dosage for modafinil for narcolepsy and neurological fatigue is 200mg once per day. You're taking 3 times that amount when there is no hard evidence that dosages higher than 200mg per day confer additional benefits. Why? If you are worries then stop taking 600mg per day and go back down to the 200mg dose.

[inawe]

Leaving aside how much creatine or proteins is good to take, Edward
brought up an important point. If your LDL is high there are
things you can do. If your blood pressure is high there are ways to
lower it. But, if you find out your GFR is way off, what do you do? If
anybody knows, please divulge it. Millions of people will be very
grateful.
That there are several formulas to go from creatinine to GFR and no
one is precise, is a different story. But the important thing to take
home is: be good to your kidneys, once they are damaged there is very
little you can do.

[unbreakable]

But, if you find out your GFR is way off, what do you do? If
anybody knows, please divulge it. Millions of people will be very
grateful.

Inject BMP-7.

[inawe]

Do you know that BMP-7 injections have been given to treat kidney decease in people?

[unbreakable]

BMP-7 is one of the most promising agents to reverse kidney damage, but it hasn't yet been tested in clinical trials.

[DukeNukem]

I take about 100 supplemental chemicals (powders, pills, liquids) daily, and have a thorough body status check-up every 6-8 months (blood work, etc.). So far in many years of doing this, no hint of a problem, only solid signs of good health. Most supplements are food extracts, so they really shouldn't present a problem anyway.

What I'd be a lot more worried about is eating foods with additives, artificial chemicals, trans fats, rancid fats and toxins (such as mercury in fish). These are likely the molecules that are wrecking internal havoc, causing DNA replication errors, impaired organ function (including the brain), and so on. I consider my cocoa, pomegranate, green tea extract, vitamin D, IP-6, and creatine to be pretty darn safe, along with everything else I take -- and so far that's proving true in my tests.

Trust. But verify.

[happy]

I take about 100 supplemental chemicals (powders, pills, liquids) daily, and have a thorough body status check-up every 6-8 months (blood work, etc.). So far in many years of doing this, no hint of a problem, only solid signs of good health. Most supplements are food extracts, so they really shouldn't present a problem anyway.

What I'd be a lot more worried about is eating foods with additives, artificial chemicals, trans fats, rancid fats and toxins (such as mercury in fish). These are likely the molecules that are wrecking internal havoc, causing DNA replication errors, impaired organ function (including the brain), and so on. I consider my cocoa, pomegranate, green tea extract, vitamin D, IP-6, and creatine to be pretty darn safe, along with everything else I take -- and so far that's proving true in my tests.

Trust. But verify.

Hey Duke, do you take Cocoa in a pill (Jarrow) or dark chocolate (Lindt) or Dutch unprocessed, unsweetened and drink it? I really want to increase my intake of cocoa but am trying to figure out the best way.

:sips his green tea:

DNF trailer looks awesome :]

[krillin]

Hey Duke, do you take Cocoa in a pill (Jarrow) or dark chocolate (Lindt) or Dutch unprocessed, unsweetened and drink it? I really want to increase my intake of cocoa but am trying to figure out the best way.

Jarrow's is standardized for stimulants, not polyphenols. Better options are Solaray's (160 mg polyphenols) or LEF's (130 mg polyphenols.)