209 replies to this topic

[Elus]

Elus I completely understand how you feel about this topic but I just have a few concerns about this type of view of not having children (which I myself once had).

My greatest concern is that if us people who support Indefinite lifeextension/ transhumanism / libertarianism etc do not have kids who will be left to carry on our dream? Who else but our own children are most influenced by our beliefs? Do you understand where I'm coming from Elus? If we don't reproduce this world might be overrun with religious conservatives.

That's a good point. I don't really know how to respond to this, other than hope that religious conservatives can change their views once they become better educated.

Have you seen the movie Idiocracy? It's the same sort of concern.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXRjmyJFzrU

Edited by Elus, 09 January 2011 - 02:59 AM.

[The Immortalist]

Elus I completely understand how you feel about this topic but I just have a few concerns about this type of view of not having children (which I myself once had).

My greatest concern is that if us people who support Indefinite lifeextension/ transhumanism / libertarianism etc do not have kids who will be left to carry on our dream? Who else but our own children are most influenced by our beliefs? Do you understand where I'm coming from Elus? If we don't reproduce this world might be overrun with religious conservatives.

That's a good point. I don't really know how to respond to this, other than hope that religious conservatives can change their views once they become better educated.

Have you seen the movie Idiocracy? It's the same sort of concern.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXRjmyJFzrU

Thanks for the link it seems like a thought provoking movie. It actually sums up the point that I had earlier about techno conservatives overrunning the world.
I feel that if smart people are smart, then they should realize the value of reproducing because in the end it's all a battle of numbers. If techno conservatives outnumber techno libertarians 10 to 1 for example then there is no way people will vote to fund radical life extension technologies.

I wonder, how many conservatives and liberals are there in the world? I'm assuming that generally but with a few exceptions the liberals are the ones who would support radical life extension technologies and the conservative would be against it?

[Logan]

Human life wouldn't be interesting and may not continue to advance quite as much or as rapidly if we didn't bring new life into the world.

A long-lived individual, full of experience and knowledge, can contribute far more than an ignorant newborn infant.

Having offspring is an evolutionary mechanism designed to pass genes onto the next generation in order to allow for adaptation to the environment. We call this mechanism evolution. However, given that we are approaching an era of supreme mastery of genetic engineering, we humans will be able to dictate our own advancement without the use of inefficient mechanisms such as reproduction.

In essence, we will have greater control over our own future.

It almost sounds as if you have no appreciation for the reason why you are here today. I believe the creation of new life is an amazing thing that we should never take for granted. Having children can bring us closer and teach us lessons sometimes necessary for further personal growth. There are so many positives that come out of having children and starting families. I highly doubt we will ever stop reproducing. There will be a large part of the population of the human race that will continue to do so, regardless of what other "more advanced" humans are doing.

Are you one that thinks trans-humanism is the ultimate goal, not just life-extension or achieving indefinite lifespan(I realize the only way to achieve an indefinite life span may be to achieve trans-humanism). Trans-humanism will be fine by me if it means we live incredibly long lives, as long as we don't lose those things that make human life beautiful and interesting-joy, laughter, sadness, courage, friendship, anger, pain, and most importantly, love. If you are one that wants to transform into a being that does not feel or experience these things, it makes me wonder what your life experience has been up until this point.

I'm also guessing you don't like kids much and you don't see the kinds of lessons we can learn from our children.

I guess there will be 2 races, those that choose trans-humanism(which doesn't sound very human to me) and those that still want to reproduce, love, feel joy, and experience the wonder of close intimate relationships with family, friends, and romantic partners.

Being human isn't that great. Not everyone wants to be human.

I totally understand this. I'm not liking being human so much lately. But I do wish to be a young healthy and mostly happy version of what I am today, still mostly human.

If you have been lucky enough to experience the fullness of what it is like to be human and everything wonderful and painful that comes with it, you will be more likely to want to continue to experience the human condition. There is a depth with humanity that we will lose with at least what some people want to achieve through transhumanism. I suspect that Imminst attracts people that are both young and have not lead full happy fullfilling lives rich with great friends, great love, and other great experiences. It makes sense that many of these people would be more likely to want something else out of life when they only know a life that has not been very good to them.

Edited by morganator, 09 January 2011 - 08:59 AM.

[nowayout]

No, I can't stand kids for more than half an hour. They are boring - they don't have anything interesting to say. Worse, they drag their parents down to their level and make the parents impossible to be with.

I don't think it used to be that bad when I was growing up. Parents and kids were more independent from each other, but those days are gone.

Edited by viveutvivas, 09 January 2011 - 06:41 PM.

[Logan]

No, I can't stand kids for more than half an hour. They are boring - they don't have anything interesting to say. Worse, they drag their parents down to their level and make the parents impossible to be with.

I don't think it used to be that bad when I was growing up. Parents and kids were more independent from each other, but those days are gone.

Parents and kids were more independent? Meaning parents were not doing their jobs.

[Logan]

No, I can't stand kids for more than half an hour. They are boring - they don't have anything interesting to say. Worse, they drag their parents down to their level and make the parents impossible to be with.

I don't think it used to be that bad when I was growing up. Parents and kids were more independent from each other, but those days are gone.

Parents and kids were more independent? Meaning parents were not doing their jobs.

Not talking about overprotecting here. I'm talking about love, physical affection, nurture, and connectedness. You're parents should be like your best friends.

The Immortalist brought up some good points about the life extension movement. The movement would benefit from many of us having children, though this should not be the only reason why we do. Love should be the primary reason. Most of you guys probably think that's BS. I feel sad for you that do. Many of the members of Imminst seem to be lacking in passion for what makes human life wonderful and unique.

Edited by morganator, 10 January 2011 - 02:37 AM.

[The Immortalist]

No, I can't stand kids for more than half an hour. They are boring - they don't have anything interesting to say. Worse, they drag their parents down to their level and make the parents impossible to be with.

I don't think it used to be that bad when I was growing up. Parents and kids were more independent from each other, but those days are gone.

Parents and kids were more independent? Meaning parents were not doing their jobs.

Not talking about overprotecting here. I'm talking about love, physical affection, nurture, and connectedness. You're parents should be like your best friends.

The Immortalist brought up some good points about the life extension movement. The movement would benefit from many of us having children, though this should not be the only reason why we do. Love should be the primary reason. Most of you guys probably think that's BS. I feel sad for you that do. Many of the members of Imminst seem to be lacking in passion for what makes human life wonderful and unique.

Your right, reproducing just to increase a populations numbers is not the only reason why we should do so. There's a lot of young people here so I don't think many of us are actually thinking of having children anytime soon. As for your comment about many of the people here lacking passion for what makes life wonderful and unique, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

[nowayout]

Not talking about overprotecting here. I'm talking about love, physical affection, nurture, and connectedness. You're parents should be like your best friends.

I don't think so. Your parents should be like your parents, not like your best friends. Children need to know that they have to go out in the world and find their own best friends. Children need space both to learn to play alone and to learn to socialize within their own peer group. More and more parents today have an unhealthy obsession with micromanaging their children to the extent of stifling their development as independent beings. Children need the example and role model of parents who act as adults, having healthy adult relationships and friendships within their own peer group that do not include their children, and parents need to be able to talk like adults with their peers without children insisting on being in the middle. This seems to be getting more rare. No wonder narcissism is out of control, and solidarity and empathy are waning, amongst young people (and already the not so young). A generation has been raised that cannot walk a block alone without having their hand held via their cellphone.

Edited by viveutvivas, 10 January 2011 - 03:59 AM.

[Logan]

No, I can't stand kids for more than half an hour. They are boring - they don't have anything interesting to say. Worse, they drag their parents down to their level and make the parents impossible to be with.

I don't think it used to be that bad when I was growing up. Parents and kids were more independent from each other, but those days are gone.

Parents and kids were more independent? Meaning parents were not doing their jobs.

Not talking about overprotecting here. I'm talking about love, physical affection, nurture, and connectedness. You're parents should be like your best friends.

The Immortalist brought up some good points about the life extension movement. The movement would benefit from many of us having children, though this should not be the only reason why we do. Love should be the primary reason. Most of you guys probably think that's BS. I feel sad for you that do. Many of the members of Imminst seem to be lacking in passion for what makes human life wonderful and unique.

Your right, reproducing just to increase a populations numbers is not the only reason why we should do so. There's a lot of young people here so I don't think many of us are actually thinking of having children anytime soon. As for your comment about many of the people here lacking passion for what makes life wonderful and unique, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

I do think many people here want to live because they are passionate about living, I'm just not sure if many here have passion for some of the things that make humans unique, like love, empathy, compassion, and physical intimacy. I only feel this way after hearing so much talk about issues like disinterest in children and transhumanism.

I understand the world is full of people that are lacking warmth and passion for certain things. I just feel there are certain parts of the population that are more likely be a bit more on the pragmatic and much less on the romantic side of things, and the life extension community seems to be one of them. It's as if romanticism is thought of as a weakness. I prefer to have a balance between pragmatism and romanticism. But I understand everyone operates differently for good reason.

[Ron]

I think I voted "probably" some time ago but have been leaning more and more toward the "probably not" camp lately. I'm sure there are some very heart-warming and enriching moments in child rearing, but I think these are heavily outweighed by minutiae and drudgery. I can't say I've ever seen a parent out doing parental things and thought to myself, "oooh, I gotta get me some of that!" Most people seem to just fall into doing it because it's what their peers are doing. Others who are more thoughtful still can't give a non-philosophical reason. I think it ultimately comes down to ego. That's fine and I have no disrespect for folks who go that route, but I'm increasingly certain it won't be mine.

[PWAIN]

n=1, however my experience before and after children is that I am happier and more fulfilled with children than I believe I ever could have been without kids. You can never really know until you have your own, however it is a one way ticket, so if you are not happy, there is no real way back (at least ethically).

I guess if indefinite lifespan does not occur in our lifetimes, we can expect the imminst community to be much smaller. Perhaps this is why it is as small as it currently is? The genes of wanna-be immortalists are bred out.

A lot more people these days are choosing not to have kids. Unless indefinite life extension can be achieved, I predict a sharp fall in this attitude in coming generations. This is based on the belief that there are genes for maternalism and paternalism even if this is not their primary function.

[De Grey]

I do want kids,because they could be usefull one day. When you believe in Cryonics it is important to have kids, because one day they may revive you from dead...

[openeyes]

I do want kids,because they could be usefull one day. When you believe in Cryonics it is important to have kids, because one day they may revive you from dead...

While I would be having kids for other reasons primarily, I'll agree that I personally would be more open to expending resources to revive a great great grandparent than someone of their time that I have no known connection to.

[Ron]

I do want kids,because they could be usefull one day. When you believe in Cryonics it is important to have kids, because one day they may revive you from dead...

Don't you pay a company to do this? Or are you planning DIY cryonics? ;-)

[nowayout]

I do want kids,because they could be usefull one day. When you believe in Cryonics it is important to have kids, because one day they may revive you from dead...

Many people indeed used to have children (and many still do), mainly because they were useful. But the reason to have children should never be so that you can use them.

Edited by viveutvivas, 29 January 2011 - 03:30 AM.

[Pour_la_Science]

I do want kids,because they could be usefull one day. When you believe in Cryonics it is important to have kids, because one day they may revive you from dead...

Many people indeed used to have children (and many still do), mainly because they were useful. But the reason to have children should never be so that you can use them.

How would that be possible?
Everything is done for a goal, your own goal and satisfy your desire.
If you do something, it's always because you think it's useful for you. (it could be more complicated: you help somebody because you think that it will be useful for him, but doing that, it make you happy so it's useful to you... See how complex is the human brain! )

Edited by Pour_la_Science, 08 February 2011 - 03:23 PM.

[fruser]

Definitely not. I just don't like children (although would never hurt them) and feel no urge to look after them. It's weird but I've known since early childhood that I'd never want a child and have never wavered. I couldn't even ever imagine myself with a family as a child and always felt more inclined to look after dogs and cats than human children. I had a very overprotected childhood and given I'd never been given a lot of opportunity to experience and live as many did my age, the last thing I'd wish is to give up my remaining life for another human being. Also, the bits of my childhood that were ruined were wrecked by other children. Overprotection has caused me enough social problems without me having dependants who would look to me for teaching about this world.

I think that there are too many children in this world who are not given love and are in orphanages and I wouldn't dream of adding to it. I know that it is not in my nature to be maternal and therefore have the sense and mercy not to create a mini-me that will most likely grow up bitter and resentful of a mother that couldn't be bothered. I often say that children/babies are baby lion cute...lions are adorable as cubs but if someone asked you to look after one, you'd run if you had sense!

I have horrible genetic faults running in my family and whilst they are not as nasty as some things out there, I would still never wish them onto another person and would feel forever guilty if I passed on a biological life sentence to a child that didn't ask to be born. Also, despite your best efforts, your kid could still turn out to be a bad person. One of my siblings have had children and I'm still no fan of them. I find them annoying, dependant and just not as much fun as others do.

A few years ago, I took the step of being sterilised. It has brought me great peace of mind and I know that if I ever show an interest in having long-term relationships, I will have an immutable contract that says children will NEVER be part of the deal.

[openeyes]

A few years ago, I took the step of being sterilised. It has brought me great peace of mind and I know that if I ever show an interest in having long-term relationships, I will have an immutable contract that says children will NEVER be part of the deal.

It's good to see someone taking action. Too many people I come across in person might say they don't want kids, but they do little to ensure that they won't.

[fruser]

It's good to see someone taking action. Too many people I come across in person might say they don't want kids, but they do little to ensure that they won't.

Well for me, the idea of children was such a terrifying prospect and it was either do something about it or have that threat hanging over me for the rest of my life. Wasn't cheap but was well worth the money and discomfort. Sadly being young and without children I would have been unable to get it on NHS so I went through Marie Stopes. I feared being stuck with children more than most things and although there was a slightly higher risk of the tubes healing themselves because I had the operation done under 28 (I was 26), the chances were still pretty slim.

[jdgauchat]

to have kids is a natural imposition (and sometimes a social imposition as well). It's something that can be avoided like buying a car. That doesn't mean that have children is a bad thing or a boring obligation, but is not something you HAVE to do. If you are aware of this and have your mind occupied with important things like, let say, preserve your existence, having children is probably the worst decision you can make. I can't dedicate my time in anything but extend my life and preserve my existence, or I will disappear forever and it won't matter if I left kids behind or not.

JD

[fruser]

to have kids is a natural imposition (and sometimes a social imposition as well). It's something that can be avoided like buying a car. That doesn't mean that have children is a bad thing or a boring obligation, but is not something you HAVE to do.

Very well put. I must admit that although it's not the life path for me, I do have an admiration for people who are good parents and can put in the effort to create decent humans.

[Matt79]

Definitely not

One of the greatest downfalls of the modern man is his inability to grasp a simple concept and apply it ruthlessly:

• Opportunity Cost

Edited by Matt79, 24 March 2011 - 03:36 PM.

[Destiny's Equation]

You guys are crazy talking about spreading your genes, tribes, and creating little scientists. Having kids for me is about having kids to enjoy their company (two little people, not half of my genes, or to force them to follow dreams that are my own).

I concur.

A child is their own person, there is no guarantee they will share your mindset. My parents are businesspeople, so when they found out I was fascinated by science they were none too pleased. Similarly, I could have a child, bend over backwards to instill my worldview in them, then have them turn around and say "Science bores me to death! Forget about solving the world's problems so that humans and animals no longer suffer, I would much rather have an enjoyable job that makes me happy."

[jdgauchat]

"Science bores me to death! Forget about solving the world's problems so that humans and animals no longer suffer, I would much rather have an enjoyable job that makes me happy."

haha I was picturing a young guy telling his "immortalist" father: "this morning I knew Jesus!"

I just lost my dog. It was the saddest thing ever happened to me (and I already lost my parents), but now I'm experiencing the freedom of being alone and the new possibilities I have to achieve my goals, to move everywhere I need, to live the way I have to, to expend the money I can. I think the question about having kids it's all about that. Having kids is part of the social and natural plan, and to achieve our goal we have to have our own plan or we will complete the close cycle proposed by society and be dead in a couple of decades (our dead is part of the social and natural plan we are programed to follow since we were born). In our plan, kids are just a problem.

JD

Edited by jdkasinsky, 26 March 2011 - 06:38 AM.

[VidX]

I just lost my dog. It was the saddest thing ever happened to me (and I already lost my parents), but now I'm experiencing the freedom of being alone and the new possibilities I have to achieve my goals, to move everywhere I need, to live the way I have to, to expend the money I can. I think the question about having kids it's all about that. Having kids is part of the social and natural plan, and to achieve our goal we have to have our own plan or we will complete the close cycle proposed by society and be dead in a couple of decades (our dead is part of the social and natural plan we are programed to follow since we were born). In our plan, kids are just a problem.

JD

Couldn't have said it better myself!!

[The Immortalist]

Human life wouldn't be interesting and may not continue to advance quite as much or as rapidly if we didn't bring new life into the world.

A long-lived individual, full of experience and knowledge, can contribute far more than an ignorant newborn infant.

Having offspring is an evolutionary mechanism designed to pass genes onto the next generation in order to allow for adaptation to the environment. We call this mechanism evolution. However, given that we are approaching an era of supreme mastery of genetic engineering, we humans will be able to dictate our own advancement without the use of inefficient mechanisms such as reproduction.

In essence, we will have greater control over our own future.

In addition to enabling evolution, reproducing for humans has also always meant growing your own inner circle, be it your tribe, your clan, or more hands to work the farm. Human beings are interdependent social creatures. We physically and emotional gain from support of those around us. Will this be the case in a transhuman environment? I can not say, but it is still true today and it is hard for me to imagine that life will become a single player game and as long as it does not, there is no tighter social circle than family to build around you. Maybe the nights of staying awake with a screaming newborn will end up shortening my lifespan but I am banking on a net benefit in the long haul.

Who's to say that there's people today who don't need socialization to thrive? I think it's ignorant assuming everyone is a "interdependent social creature and we physically and emotional gain from support of those around us". There's people who are perfectly happy to be by themselves most of the time and thrive off solitude. Maybe you can't understand this as your not one of these people but then again it's the same thing as how straight people don't understand gay people.

[The Immortalist]

Human life wouldn't be interesting and may not continue to advance quite as much or as rapidly if we didn't bring new life into the world.

A long-lived individual, full of experience and knowledge, can contribute far more than an ignorant newborn infant.

Having offspring is an evolutionary mechanism designed to pass genes onto the next generation in order to allow for adaptation to the environment. We call this mechanism evolution. However, given that we are approaching an era of supreme mastery of genetic engineering, we humans will be able to dictate our own advancement without the use of inefficient mechanisms such as reproduction.

In essence, we will have greater control over our own future.

It almost sounds as if you have no appreciation for the reason why you are here today. I believe the creation of new life is an amazing thing that we should never take for granted. Having children can bring us closer and teach us lessons sometimes necessary for further personal growth. There are so many positives that come out of having children and starting families. I highly doubt we will ever stop reproducing. There will be a large part of the population of the human race that will continue to do so, regardless of what other "more advanced" humans are doing.

Are you one that thinks trans-humanism is the ultimate goal, not just life-extension or achieving indefinite lifespan(I realize the only way to achieve an indefinite life span may be to achieve trans-humanism). Trans-humanism will be fine by me if it means we live incredibly long lives, as long as we don't lose those things that make human life beautiful and interesting-joy, laughter, sadness, courage, friendship, anger, pain, and most importantly, love. If you are one that wants to transform into a being that does not feel or experience these things, it makes me wonder what your life experience has been up until this point.

I'm also guessing you don't like kids much and you don't see the kinds of lessons we can learn from our children.

I guess there will be 2 races, those that choose trans-humanism(which doesn't sound very human to me) and those that still want to reproduce, love, feel joy, and experience the wonder of close intimate relationships with family, friends, and romantic partners.

Being human isn't that great. Not everyone wants to be human.

I totally understand this. I'm not liking being human so much lately. But I do wish to be a young healthy and mostly happy version of what I am today, still mostly human.

If you have been lucky enough to experience the fullness of what it is like to be human and everything wonderful and painful that comes with it, you will be more likely to want to continue to experience the human condition. There is a depth with humanity that we will lose with at least what some people want to achieve through transhumanism. I suspect that Imminst attracts people that are both young and have not lead full happy fullfilling lives rich with great friends, great love, and other great experiences. It makes sense that many of these people would be more likely to want something else out of life when they only know a life that has not been very good to them.

I know what you mean. Being able to experience the human condition to the fullest is one of the greatest bliss you can ask for, from what I've experience in my life I can only dream what the highest feeling of euphoria is. I haven't experienced the human condition to the fullest yet but It's one of my goals to experience it some day. I hope transhumanism makes it even better.

I don't think being human is that bad but I don't think it's wrong that even if you have lived your life to the fullest to want more(transhumanism). Your right in that the concept of transhumanism probably attracts alot of people who are discontent with their lives but then again most people are.

[The Immortalist]

I guess if indefinite lifespan does not occur in our lifetimes, we can expect the imminst community to be much smaller. Perhaps this is why it is as small as it currently is? The genes of wanna-be immortalists are bred out.

Exactly! I say we all get married and have 20 children just like the Duggar Family! Or you could adopt! (make sure the child doesn't have fetal alchohol syndrome or any serous disability first). Or just have 1 or 2, it's your choice!
Personally I wish I could have my own clan like the Duggars(only if I was wealthy enough to do so). They seem like an ordered and respectful family(but who knows what they're like off camera, the children's smiles seem fake and forced but I could be wrong).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pssdcLjGli4

[The Immortalist]

"Science bores me to death! Forget about solving the world's problems so that humans and animals no longer suffer, I would much rather have an enjoyable job that makes me happy."

haha I was picturing a young guy telling his "immortalist" father: "this morning I knew Jesus!"

JD

Immortalist father response: FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK

Edited by The Immortalist, 27 March 2011 - 03:33 AM.

[revenant]

First one was planned, he's 12. There's an unplanned baby on the way now...which is awesome My wife is 44 and everything is going very well so far at 14 weeks.