42 replies to this topic

[Shannon Vyff]

I'm listening to this man speak right now:

http://www.internetm...by-michael-dowd

Anyone got any good questions for the Q&A they want me to ask?

He is a guest speaker at our church--he is talking about collective intelligence right now... how we humans are on a 'trajectory' . I can't wait to find a way to ask a Q and mention I'm a cryonicist

He is talking about the creation of the universe and how stars are created right now, how the only atom from the periodic table of elements that was not created in a star, is hydrogen.

This guy is interesting because he talks fundamentalism and science, he just flips a switch.

[Shannon Vyff]

He says now after 14 billions of years of evolution, the universe is now becoming sentient --aware of itself --through us, our awareness and investigation.

Well I can see his point, to an extent--but really there could be more aware and advanced species than ourselves that we don't know about.

So we are 'Nature uncovering our own nature. We are not separate from nature, but part of it. Gas clouds that have become rose bushes...' Now to his credit he does want to speak to the billions of religious people who see God as a 'being' --he uses God as 'ultimate reality'. He sees all cultures and religions using different metaphors for this 'ultimate reality'.

So even a few hundred years ago no one used the word 'universe' --we only use the words that we know.

Hmmm right now he is talking about the split of male and female--and how testosterone and sex effects our brains today, I don't entirely agree--I'll have to give my views after the speech

[Shannon Vyff]

He says God has become so diluted that Dawkins can write a book called 'The God Delusion'--and that religious people need to take God back, and use God as what we don't know about the universe.

Well I'm all for this guy selling a bunch of books, if he can bring more conservative fundamentalist Christians to support science and evolution--which I think lead into the study of where we are going in the future.

The audience here so far is asking a lot of questions of how Christians can embrace mainstream Darwanism.

[Lazarus Long]

Our little corner of heaven is not as old as the universe in linear terms. The solar system is just about 6 billion years old. There could be many places that have evolved longer and others faster.

In the last few days alone the number of reported cosmic anomalies discovered is startling.

[Shannon Vyff]

Well so far when anyone asks a hard question--he just says 'Man, these are good questions'. We do have a highly educated crowd. We have UU's, Pagans and general Austinites (this was publicized in the paper). But if anyone here wants me to ask one...

There certainly could be older parts of the Universe, that is a good point Laz.

Now he is speaking about the need for evolutionary science to present morals--right and wrong--without the heaven and hell language, or doing the right thing from 'fear of God'.

[Lazarus Long]

Now he is speaking about the need for evolutionary science to present morals--right and wrong--without the heaven and hell language, or doing the right thing from 'fear of God'.

Did you see the paper I posted on the Moral Instinct ?

[Shannon Vyff]

Now he is speaking about the need for evolutionary science to present morals--right and wrong--without the heaven and hell language, or doing the right thing from 'fear of God'.

Did you see the paper I posted on the Moral Instinct ?

no I didn't ... thanks! I'll be able to read it later. This guy has some very nice pictures of the birth of stars, and the universe.

[Lazarus Long]

See f he has heard about this formation. It is very new and only 166 light years away.

It actually could be a potential threat if the stars collapse into one another and trigger a super nova.

Four Stars Found in Amazingly Tight Bunch

These stars are only 500 million years old. They are in orbits of less than 1 AU and their years are only days long.

[meursault]

In the last few days alone the number of reported cosmic anomalies discovered is startling.

Could you provide links to those reports? I'm interested.

Edited by AntonW, 14 January 2008 - 01:50 AM.

[RighteousReason]

Powerful

[Lazarus Long]

Could you provide links to those reports? I'm interested.

I just gave one but there are more. Including reports of Black Holes that exceed the mathematical size limits for such phenomenon dramatically.

[spaceistheplace]

Sounds heavily influenced by Teilhard de Chardin. Will continue reading this. Thanks Shannon.

[Lazarus Long]

Here are just a few more examples


Space Cloud to Collide With Our Galaxy

Source of Mysterious Antimatter Found

Spiral Galaxy Winds Backwards

Precursor of Life Molecules Found Around Star

[kclo4x]

"He is talking about the creation of the universe and how stars are created right now, how the only atom from the periodic table of elements that was not created in a star, is hydrogen."

Is he saying ONLY hydrogen existed, or Hydrogen, Deturium, tritium, helium, helium 3, lithium, barrium, etc?
I do beleive i have read that those elements, along with maybe more isotopes formed after the universe started to cool down.

[Shannon Vyff]

I think he was saying that hydrogen was the oldest--that was just a quote from him.

He really is focusing on evolutionary psychology right now, how we evolved in the past effects us today. He talks about how God language taps into trust of a larger reality, but how people overcoming addictions can do this without the religion. He feels one of the most important steps is honesty in interpretation, taking responsibility for our actions --not playing the blame game. Looking at how following our inherent instincts has gotten us into trouble, or caused us to hurt others. How as a species to move in to a life giving future, this will not happen if we think we are the end of evolution--we have a unique role (sounds like he could easily be a transhumanist ).

[Lazarus Long]

Oh and one more article to add to the popular astronomy reading list.

Astronomers describe violent universe

By SETH BORENSTEIN, AP Science Writer Fri Jan 11, 6:44 PM ET

WASHINGTON - The deeper astronomers gaze into the cosmos, the more they find it's a bizarre and violent universe. The research findings from this week's annual meeting of U.S. astronomers range from blue orphaned baby stars to menacing "rogue" black holes that roam our galaxy, devouring any planets unlucky enough to be within their limited reach.

"It's an odd universe we live in," said Vanderbilt University astronomer Kelly Holley-Bockelmann. She presented her theory on rogue black holes at the American Astronomical Society's meeting in Austin, Texas, earlier this week.

It should be noted that she's not worried and you shouldn't be either. The odds of one of these black holes swallowing up Earth or the sun or wreaking other havoc is somewhere around 1 in 10 quadrillion in any given year.

"This is the glory of the universe," added J. Craig Wheeler, president of the astronomy association. "What is odd and what is normal is changing."

Just five years ago, astronomers were gazing at a few thousand galaxies where stars formed in a bizarre and violent manner. Now the number is in the millions, thanks to more powerful telescopes and supercomputers to crunch the crucial numbers streaming in from space, said Wheeler, a University of Texas astronomer.

Scientists are finding that not only are they improving their understanding of the basic questions of the universe — such as how did it all start and where is it all going — they also keep stumbling upon unexpected, hard-to-explain cosmic quirks and the potential, but comfortably distant, dangers.

Much of what they keep finding plays out like a stellar version of a violent Quentin Tarantino movie. The violence surrounds and approaches Earth, even though our planet is safe and "in a pretty quiet neighborhood," said Wheeler, author of the book "Cosmic Catastrophes."

One example is an approaching gas cloud discussed at the meeting Friday. The cloud has a mass 1 million times that of the sun. It is 47 quadrillion miles away. But it's heading toward our Milky Way galaxy at 150 miles per second. And when it hits, there will be fireworks that form new stars and "really light up the neighborhood," said astronomer Jay Lockman at the National Radio Astronomy Observatory in West Virginia.

But don't worry. It will hit a part of the Milky Way far from Earth and the biggest collision will be 40 million years in the future.

The giant cloud has been known for more than 40 years, but only now have scientists realized how fast it's moving. So fast, Lockman said, that "we can see it sort of plowing up a wave of galactic material in front of it."

When astronomers this week unveiled a giant map of mysterious dark matter in a supercluster of galaxies, they explained that the violence of the cramped-together galaxies is so great that there is now an accepted vocabulary for various types of cosmic brutal behavior.

The gravitational force between the clashing galaxies can cause "slow strangulation," in which crucial gas is gradually removed from the victim galaxy. "Stripping" is a more violent process in which the larger galaxy rips gas from the smaller one. And then there's "harassment," which is a quick fly-by encounter, said astronomer Meghan Gray of the University of Nottingham in the United Kingdom.

Gray's presentation essentially showed the victims of galaxy-on-galaxy violence. She and her colleagues are trying to figure out the how the dirty deeds were done.

In the past few days, scientists have unveiled plenty to ooh and aah over:

• Photos of "blue blobs" that astronomers figure are orphaned baby stars. They're called orphans because they were "born in the middle of nowhere" instead of within gas clouds, said Catholic University of America astronomer Duilia F. de Mello.

• A strange quadruplet of four hugging stars, which may eventually help astronomers understand better how stars form.

• A young star surrounded by dust, that may eventually become a planet. It's nicknamed "the moth," because the interaction of star and dust are shaped like one.

• A spiral galaxy with two pairs of arms spinning in opposite directions, like a double pinwheel. It defies what astronomers believe should happen. It is akin to one of those spinning-armed flamingo lawn ornaments, said astronomer Gene Byrd of the University of Alabama.

• The equivalent of post-menopausal stars giving unlikely birth to new planets. Most planets form soon after a sun, but astronomers found two older stars, one at least 400 million years old, with new planets.

"Intellectually and spiritually, if I can use that word with a lower case 's,' it's awe-inspiring," Wheeler said. "It's a great universe."

___

On the Net:

American Astronomical Society: http://www.aas.org/

Hubble Space Telescope: http://hubblesite.org/

[Shannon Vyff]

Ok, I'm still excited from talking with him afterwards for 30 minutes about cryonics. He knew a lot about transhumanism, had sold 950 of Kurzweil's books while on the road-- but he knew practically nothing about cryonics. He gave me his address to get Alcor's magazine sent to him--he wants to see the recent issue that has an article by me and a review of my book by Mike Perry.

Lots of fun (oh and one other church member gave me her address from listening in to our conversation)

[Shannon Vyff]

You can download his book and read it for free, from his website:

http://thankgodforevolution.com/home/

[william7]

I tried to download the free book, but come up with nothing. Perhaps there's a trick to it I don't understand. It certainly doesn't work like the usual PDF downloads I utilize regularly without problem.

One last note: It’s quite likely many in the emerging church will read Dowd, since lots of reconciliation in the air, and head right down the road to Pantheism and the New Age Movement. Make no mistake about it: when it comes to orthodox, historic Christianity, Dowd is not only wrong, he’s not nearly as impressed with Jesus as he is with evolution’s “grand story.” Pantheism has its appeal, but at the end of its road it destroys the incarnation itself by radical reinterpretation. It’s a great temptation in post-modern times to give heed to anyone selling the elimination of rancorous debate, and Dowd is surely enthused to do that. But once Dowd’s version of reality has been heard, Jesus Christ is not Lord and God any more than you are.

This statement at the end of the internetmonk.com blog, at http://www.internetm...by-michael-dowd, suggests that Michael Dowd is just another antichrist. 1 John 2:22. Better be careful!

[Shannon Vyff]

I tried to download the free book, but come up with nothing. Perhaps there's a trick to it I don't understand. It certainly doesn't work like the usual PDF downloads I utilize regularly without problem.

One last note: It’s quite likely many in the emerging church will read Dowd, since lots of reconciliation in the air, and head right down the road to Pantheism and the New Age Movement. Make no mistake about it: when it comes to orthodox, historic Christianity, Dowd is not only wrong, he’s not nearly as impressed with Jesus as he is with evolution’s “grand story.” Pantheism has its appeal, but at the end of its road it destroys the incarnation itself by radical reinterpretation. It’s a great temptation in post-modern times to give heed to anyone selling the elimination of rancorous debate, and Dowd is surely enthused to do that. But once Dowd’s version of reality has been heard, Jesus Christ is not Lord and God any more than you are.

This statement at the end of the internetmonk.com blog, at http://www.internetm...by-michael-dowd, suggests that Michael Dowd is just another antichrist. 1 John 2:22. Better be careful!

Hey read his book, then let me know what you think. I met him, and he is no anti-christ, not charismatic enough plus he's from the wrong part of the world per the scripture.

[william7]

Checkout the Michael Dowd video, at http://thankgodforev...n.com/faq.html#, by clicking on the question "How did you go from being an anti-evolution fundamentalist to being America's evolutionary evangelist?". He's been deeply and thoroughly brainwashed by Satan's counterfeit Christianity. He says he picked up this "sacred evolution" idea from someone teaching Catholic mysticism. Again, be very careful Shannon. Keep your mind protector shields up and guard you thought processes well. The forces of darkness always appear as light in these troubled times.

Edited by elijah3, 15 January 2008 - 04:45 AM.

[Shannon Vyff]

I'm reading his book--you can read his book then comment on it.

Our country needs someone who will unite fundamentalists with science, and he very much sees all of evolution as God's plan.

I also think our times are less troubled then they were a thousand years ago, or even 500 or 200... we have much light, we futurists are part of it.

[william7]

I'm reading his book--you can read his book then comment on it.

I would love to read Dowd's book but can't get the free PDF version. My computer skills are not top flight yet so I might be missing something. May be you could post the PDF address so I can go directly to it without all the rigmarole.

Our country needs someone who will unite fundamentalists with science, and he very much sees all of evolution as God's plan.

Yes, it's true that someone needs to unite science with the Scriptures as you say. However, it has to be done without sacrificing the truth of the Scriptures. This guy Dowd isn't doing that.

Evolution isn't the big thing of the Scriptures. It's nowhere mentioned in the book. The big plan of the Scriptures is the instilling of God's law - with the guidance of Christ's teachings - into the hearts minds of man so well there will never be a need for a punitive legal system as we have today. See Ezekiel 11:19-20; Jeremiah 31:33; Hebrews 10:15-18; 1 John 4:18. The only way this can be accomplished is through living communally as the early Christian Church in Acts did and through teaching the children God's law as Christ taught the law. Acts 4:32; Matthew 22:36-40; 23:23-24.

After man has perfected Christian living and possesses the righteous Christian character that comes from it, then he will be able to master science and technology and utilize it safely for the good of all. Checkout Christian Communism II, at http://www.imminst.o...-II-t19409.html, for more on this.

I also think our times are less troubled then they were a thousand years ago, or even 500 or 200... we have much light, we futurists are part of it.

When has man ever had the potential to totally annihilate the human race through nuclear and biological weapons and global warming? A new or old super disease could wipe out a very large portion of the population densely packed into lage cities bringing so-called civilization to its knees very quickly. I would have to say we're living in seriously troubled times unparallelled in human history. Checkout The Good News magazine article the "Seven Prophecies That Must Be Fulfilled Before Jesus Christ's Return", at http://www.gnmagazin...nprophecies.htm, for more on the subject.

[Shannon Vyff]

We've always had disease--the black plague took out millions. We have the technology today to stop an outbreak, contain it--treat it. Our technology can treat global warming and the pollution we've caused--we have had extreme swings of temperature in the past anyway. We have the ability to expand our space travel in the next few centuries --we are in a very bright time. We have not used nukes, and some say they have saved a lot of lives by preventing war--we also would survive a nuclear holocaust and likely we'd still have our language and libraries, and thus be no where near as primitive as we were say in the stone ages. On the prophecies--those were being fulfilled when I was in highschool, every decade for the past couple of hundred years--people have been seeing 'fulfillment'.

Dowd very much does stay with the truth of the scriptures--you'll have to read the book:

It is on this page (midway down on the right 'download book as PDF'):

http://thankgodforev...on.com/faq.html

[spaceistheplace]

Just found out that Dowd will be coming to Dallas to speak on Thursday. I'll be in the area, so I will go and see what this man is all about!

[platypus]

What good ever resulted (or will result) from fundamentalism? That kind of people are as demented as their religion (whatever that is).

[Shannon Vyff]

Just found out that Dowd will be coming to Dallas to speak on Thursday. I'll be in the area, so I will go and see what this man is all about!

Cool! Say hi from the cryonics girl in Austin (Shannon Vyff author '21st Century Kids')

But weigh in with your thoughts, I'm on chapter 3 of his book--I like the way he blends the grand story of evolution, into fundamentalist talk, very entertaining

[Shannon Vyff]

ps. Where is he speaking?

Our church services were standing room only, and his two hour evening presentation had about apox 150. It would be interesting to see what the turn out in Dallas is like compared to Austin. Dowd and his wife have been traveling for years, they sold their home and are on the road staying in other people's homes. That would be kind of cool if we could get ImmInst members showing up and talking to him about Transhumanism, cryonics, life extension and such

[bandit]

ps. Where is he speaking?

Our church services were standing room only, and his two hour evening presentation had about apox 150. It would be interesting to see what the turn out in Dallas is like compared to Austin. Dowd and his wife have been traveling for years, they sold their home and are on the road staying in other people's homes. That would be kind of cool if we could get ImmInst members showing up and talking to him about Transhumanism, cryonics, life extension and such

definitely a good idea. she gave some rationalization for accepting death that was apparently the result of of this perspective they have gained, so you would have to avoid directly challenging that right off the bat, instead try to present transhumanism in such a way that integrates with their vision, if you could do it well, then presented in such a way that enhances/evolves their vision

[bandit]

He knew a lot about transhumanism, had sold 950 of Kurzweil's books while on the road

So I guess he's already on board with the Kurzweilian Singularity.

Wait till this guy reads Eliezer Yudkowsky! o_O

Edited by bandit, 15 January 2008 - 11:51 PM.