81 replies to this topic

[forever freedom]

I believe it's because of Their (God and His heavenly servants) advanced stage of moral and technological development that permits them the ability to possess the knowledge of good and evil and use it only for good. Had we humans been able to develop Godly character in the Garden of Eden knowing only good and not evil we could have been spared a lot of pain in the developmental process and attained immortality much more quickly.

So why did he give us the choice to have the knowledge of good and evil? Because it was getting too monotonous for Him?

[maestro949]

I think we scared Truthspeaker away.

The virus will always be there as it too uses evolutionary mechanisms to survive. Every new medium that emerges, the viruses will also infect as we have seen with the evolution of spoken language, print, radio, television and now the internet . Until we engineer cognitive immunities that can be widely available this contagion will thrive. It preys on weakness using the biologically wired fear of death and desires for the comfort of explanations where there really are none.

Pay no attention to the infidels truthspeaker.

We'd appreciate that and we'll do likewise in return.

We've heard your prophecies and warnings for thousands of years yet as we accumulate more evidence of the universe around us, some of us have realized that suffering and death do not need to be necessary. We see a clear path forward where, as a species, we can engineer solutions to nearly every problem that one's imagination can conjure. Attempting to scare us into submission only encourages us infidels to work harder to seek refuge from the pestilence of irrational thought and behaviors that live among and within us.

[william7]

So why did he give us the choice to have the knowledge of good and evil? Because it was getting too monotonous for Him?

Free will or the ability to choose freely was probably one of those features God was forced to include in man in order to achieve a stronger moral character with a higher level of cognitive functioning. Had He not included free will, we would be little more than preprogrammed robots or puppets with very little character or capacity to think creatively. We wouldn't be human.

[william7]

engineer solutions to nearly every problem

We sure do have enough problems in need of a solution and things seem to be getting worse instead of better for those in the lower strata of society especially. May be God is trying to show us how to engineer a solution to our social and behavioral problems that'll definitely work.

pestilence of irrational thought and behaviors that live among and within us

Who are the thought police who determine what thoughts and behaviors are to be considered irrational? The American Psychiatric Association, the state and federal legislative bodies, the news and entertainment media, the Universities? Who'll do this and will it be a democratic process that'll include and encourage the full participation of the lower strata of society?

If a superior than human AGI is developed and it says believing in God and the Bible isn't irrational and the Christian Communism plan contained in the Bible is the best and fastest route to achieving immortality, will you go along with the program?

[Richard Leis]

Through the hard work and creativity of men, women, and other gender identities, we just might get there soon!

Oh jeez, give me a break.

You don't think we will? (or just not "soon"?)

Not sure, but in any case I doubt diversity of "gender identities" will play a significant contributing role in any such discovery. Actually, in the short term, I think those with these "other gender identities" might best serve humanity and their communities with respect to the goal of immortalism by re-evaluating and appropriately adjusting their lifestyles:

http://www.sfgate.co...5/MNI5UE0L8.DTL

http://query.nytimes...753C1A961948260

When did this topic become an opportunity to attack other lifestyles and my use of "other gender identities"? My standard practice when mentioning men and women is to also include "other" or "other gender identities" to be as inclusive as possible. I have done so in other posts and have never seen this kind of reaction. Some of the subsequent responses are not relevant to my greeting of the topic starter and frankly smack of intolerance. I will continue to include inclusive language because it is the right thing to do, and I will also continue to be shocked by people who focus on a throwaway phrase and become mean. If you want to debate my use of "other gender identities" and insist that gays change their ways, start another topic.

I was simply trying to see if greeting a new, albeit forcefully religious, member and highlighting the value of ImmInst might prove a better response than calling them names.

[william7]

Through the hard work and creativity of men, women, and other gender identities, we just might get there soon!

Oh jeez, give me a break.

You don't think we will? (or just not "soon"?)

Not sure, but in any case I doubt diversity of "gender identities" will play a significant contributing role in any such discovery. Actually, in the short term, I think those with these "other gender identities" might best serve humanity and their communities with respect to the goal of immortalism by re-evaluating and appropriately adjusting their lifestyles:

http://www.sfgate.co...5/MNI5UE0L8.DTL

http://query.nytimes...753C1A961948260

I agree 100 percent. Meat eating and sexual immorality are disease spreaders that kill innocent children. We need to engineer a solution to this behavior quickly.

I bet ya maestro isn't interested in giving up the big macs and pizzas with sausage anytime soon.
A well developed cognitive bias there that'll be difficult to get at.

[Live Forever]

Through the hard work and creativity of men, women, and other gender identities, we just might get there soon!

Oh jeez, give me a break.

You don't think we will? (or just not "soon"?)

Not sure, but in any case I doubt diversity of "gender identities" will play a significant contributing role in any such discovery. Actually, in the short term, I think those with these "other gender identities" might best serve humanity and their communities with respect to the goal of immortalism by re-evaluating and appropriately adjusting their lifestyles:

http://www.sfgate.co...5/MNI5UE0L8.DTL

http://query.nytimes...753C1A961948260

When did this topic become an opportunity to attack other lifestyles and my use of "other gender identities"? My standard practice when mentioning men and women is to also include "other" or "other gender identities" to be as inclusive as possible. I have done so in other posts and have never seen this kind of reaction. Some of the subsequent responses are not relevant to my greeting of the topic starter and frankly smack of intolerance. I will continue to include inclusive language because it is the right thing to do, and I will also continue to be shocked by people who focus on a throwaway phrase and become mean. If you want to debate my use of "other gender identities" and insist that gays change their ways, start another topic.

I was simply trying to see if greeting a new, albeit forcefully religious, member and highlighting the value of ImmInst might prove a better response than calling them names.

I agree Richard; I misunderstood ludongbin's response, or I wouldn't have responded to it. (I thought he was saying "give me a break" talking about the feasibility of being there "soon") Start another thread on gender issues if you would like to discuss it, and don't jump on someone for trying to be polite. Richard is a good guy and he was just trying to phrase it in a nice way.

[maestro949]

Meat eating and sexual immorality are disease spreaders that kill innocent children. We need to engineer a solution to this behavior quickly.

Our ancestors have eaten meat for millenia. Look in the mirror and smile. Do you think those canines were for tearing bark from trees?

Heterosexual intercourse spreads disease and kills people too. Should we also follow your model of hatred and apply it to the whole human race rather than just the gay community? Designing antibiotics that target emerging strains of MRSA is the answer, not reinforcing the hatred of segments of the population that choose an alternative lifestyle with thinly veiled religious moralism.

[platypus]

If a superior than human AGI is developed and it says believing in God and the Bible isn't irrational and the Christian Communism plan contained in the Bible is the best and fastest route to achieving immortality, will you go along with the program?

Probably not, I do my thinking myself. Besides, I think sanity is a huge problem for a superintelligent self-modifying AI. It difficult enough to raise sane human beings but superior posthuman minds? WTF?

Would you renounce your faith if the said AI deemed that your religion was a fairytale?

[william7]

Our ancestors have eaten meat for millenia.

It's my belief that meat eating came into the world after man's fall in the Garden of Eden where God had imposed a vegan diet. Genesis 1:29-31.

Do you think those canines were for tearing bark from trees?

Nope. I think they were for nuts and for those tough, uncooked veggies.

Heterosexual intercourse spreads disease and kills people too. Should we also follow your model of hatred and apply it to the whole human race rather than just the gay community?

My post said "sexual immorality" which includes all sex outside of monogamous, heterosexual marriage, not just homosexual relationships. No diseases are contracted when engaging in the sexually moral relationship between one man and one woman approved by God as stated in the Bible.

I've expressed no hatred towards those practicing sexual immorality. I was instead giving helpful advice. May be those engaged in sexual immorality will be encouraged to stop and think about the hazards of their behavior and cease such activities in the interests of preventing death and suffering.

Designing antibiotics that target emerging strains of MRSA is the answer

Will these antibiotics prevent the diseases from developing in the first place or are they only "after the fact" cures? I've read somewhere that these antibiotics are pretty strong medicine and have harmful side effects.

Learning to enjoy life without practicing sexual immorality and eating meat is the most logical solution to preventing diseases that arise from these activities. The Bible has the materials necessary for developing the "new forms of psychospiritual orientation and devotion" needed to build a society that will be happy and satisfied with heterosexual and monogamous marriage and a vegetarian diet. Always remember a simple, moral life according to the Scriptures is the good life.

[william7]

Would you renounce your faith if the said AI deemed that your religion was a fairytale?

Nope. I would assume the thing's intelligence was limited in this area and was probably programmed by atheists out to fool religious people into giving up their religion.

[cyborgdreamer]

We now have the problem where God must keep our lifespans shortened because we can become too evil, too quickly and be super destructive even a threat to God Himself perhaps.

That seems to imply that individuals become more evil over time. As far as I can tell, the average old person is no more evil than the avarage young person. If anything, I'd think that immortals would mature over time and become more good.

Also, how could anything be a threat to God if He is omnipotent?

Edited by cyborgdreamer, 19 January 2008 - 04:06 AM.

[basho]

...probably programmed by atheists out to fool religious people into giving up their religion.

Damn, you've uncovered the real reason atheists are working on AI. Time to move to plan B.

btw Elijah, did you ever see this page: Artificial Intellignece from the Bible.

[eternaltraveler]

That seems to imply that individuals become more evil over time. As far as I can tell, the average old person is no more evil than the avarage young person. If anything, I'd think that immortals would mature over time and become more good.

you'll have to remember the definition of evil elijah uses is not the same as the one you and I use. For him evil means being further away from the god he believes in. Whereas you and I would define it as being deliberately harmful to other people.

If people live a long time they certainly might become more evil by elijah's definition as they realize that the god he believes in is ridiculous, but more good by ours, as they mature and learn the finer ethical implications of their actions, as well as simply that they would have time to become close to a lot more people broadening their perspective on society as a whole.

[basho]

We now have the problem where God must keep our lifespans shortened because we can become too evil, too quickly and be super destructive even a threat to God Himself perhaps.

Also, how could anything be a threat to God if He is omnipotent?

Its not that we're a direct threat, but God stresses out easily and has some anger-management issues, especially with all the crazy shiat humans get up to. The old fella could have a heart attack.

[basho]

Our ancestors have eaten meat for millenia.

It's my belief that meat eating came into the world after man's fall in the Garden of Eden where God had imposed a vegan diet.

For a fan of a vegan diet, God didn't really help things with all that tedious detail in Leviticus about animal sacrifice, frying and cooking of meat, etc. Just look at Leviticus 3:16

"And the priest shall burn them upon the altar: it is the food of the offering made by fire for a sweet savour".

Is that like an ad for eating meat or what? For a hungry desert tribe, the sweet aroma of a nice steak sizzling in the pan would be irresistible. Certainly more appealing than eating locusts and other miscellaneous insects that God recommends elsewhere in Leviticus.

[platypus]

Our ancestors have eaten meat for millenia.

It's my belief that meat eating came into the world after man's fall in the Garden of Eden where God had imposed a vegan diet.

That's a pretty outlandish belief but I guess it goes hand in hand with creationism (cretinism).

[basho]

God had imposed a vegan diet.

That's a pretty outlandish belief...

Notice also the wording. God imposed a ruling (impose: to set as something to be endured or obeyed, as if by authority, against a person's natural inclinations). Eden must not have been as perfect as the flawed logic of the Christian creation myth tries to make people believe. And that's basically religion - the imposition of a repressive and illogical dogma through threat of divine punishment and appeal to imaginary authority.

[Infernity]

The original post doesn't deserve all this crowding...

[william7]

That seems to imply that individuals become more evil over time. As far as I can tell, the average old person is no more evil than the avarage young person.

I'm talking about generally as a society. If you look at history, you can see how man has become more exploitative and destructive. The ruling classes of the world have most obviously learned to live more luxuriously and oppress those beneath them. And warfare has become more refined and deadly with each war. Since history shows that it's the strong (wicked) that dominate in our corrupt society, it only stands to reason that they would continue to improve on their technique to increase their dominance with increasing longevity.

If anything, I'd think that immortals would mature over time and become more good.

Good slaves or servants perhaps.

Also, how could anything be a threat to God if He is omnipotent?

I don't think God is omnipotent. He is great and powerful and His ways are higher than mine as the Bible says, but I suspect there is a limit to what He can do and how He can do it.

Again, I strongly suspect that if God had not intervened in history to limit man's lifespan and to create the divisions in man's language and culture, at the Tower of Babel, so as to keep humanity divided and at odds with each other (divide and conquer), we would've developed more quickly into a deadly race of Klingon's with the capacity to threaten God on His home turf.

Edited by elijah3, 19 January 2008 - 03:13 PM.

[basho]

Again, I strongly suspect that if God had not intervened in history to limit man's lifespan and to create the divisions in man's language and culture, at the Tower of Babel, so as to keep humanity divided and odds with each other (divide and conquer), we would've developed more quickly into a deadly race of Klingon's with the capacity to threaten God on His home turf.

Elijah, there is hope for you yet :-) This debate is actually heading in an interestingly new direction for a change.

Edited by basho, 19 January 2008 - 03:00 PM.

[william7]

btw Elijah, did you ever see this page: Artificial Intellignece from the Bible.

Nope. Thanks for the link. I'm checking it out now.

One of the scientific community's unspoken agendas is to dismiss almost anything, regardless of merit, that might give credence to religion, especially to Christianity.

http://www.rebelscie...l#Consciousness

Sounds like oppressive and exclusivist thinking to me.

[eternaltraveler]

Again, I strongly suspect that if God had not intervened in history to limit man's lifespan and to create the divisions in man's language and culture, at the Tower of Babel, so as to keep humanity divided and at odds with each other (divide and conquer), we would've developed more quickly into a deadly race of Klingon's with the capacity to threaten God on His home turf.

Now this is interesting

[william7]

Again, I strongly suspect that if God had not intervened in history to limit man's lifespan and to create the divisions in man's language and culture, at the Tower of Babel, so as to keep humanity divided and at odds with each other (divide and conquer), we would've developed more quickly into a deadly race of Klingon's with the capacity to threaten God on His home turf.

Elijah, there is hope for you yet :-) This debate is actually heading in an interestingly new direction for a change.

Yes, but you probably misunderstand me here as saying something bad about God. I believe He had to do what He did in order to buy time to implement His plan to educate man to live peaceably and immortally. Right now man is amendable to change in the direction God wants us to. Had we developed too quickly into the exceedingly wicked Klingon race, God would've more than likely had to destroy the whole race in outer-space as not amendable to change or as irredeemable. God had to slow our progress in order to accomplish His plan for us.

[william7]

Our ancestors have eaten meat for millenia.

It's my belief that meat eating came into the world after man's fall in the Garden of Eden where God had imposed a vegan diet.

For a fan of a vegan diet, God didn't really help things with all that tedious detail in Leviticus about animal sacrifice, frying and cooking of meat, etc. Just look at Leviticus 3:16

"And the priest shall burn them upon the altar: it is the food of the offering made by fire for a sweet savour".

Is that like an ad for eating meat or what? For a hungry desert tribe, the sweet aroma of a nice steak sizzling in the pan would be irresistible. Certainly more appealing than eating locusts and other miscellaneous insects that God recommends elsewhere in Leviticus.

You must remember that the Bible, if correctly understood from front to back, is God's plan showing man how to live correctly so he can attain immortality. Some people catch on quickly, but most don't due to their rebellious ways and unnatural cravings. Because man "craved" meat, God showed him how to eat it with less destructive results. This is why He taught man to eat meat without the blood and the fat and why He showed him what was the clean and the unclean.

Of course, meat eating has played its role in keeping wicked man's lifespan well within the 120 year limit He imposed. The plan, however, is to restore the original diet in the Millennium. See Isaiah 11:6-9; 65:25. The wise Christian who wishes to transition into the Kingdom of God on earth during the Millennium should learn to be satisfied with a vegetarian diet.

So, when you get tired of all the destruction caused by meat eating, think of God's original diet in the Garden of Eden and His plan to restore that diet in the Millennium.

[maestro949]

It's my belief that meat eating came into the world after man's fall in the Garden of Eden where God had imposed a vegan diet. Genesis 1:29-31.

Coming from someone who views the universe through a mythological lense, this doesn't surprise me. You presume I view your religious texts as documented history. You might as well have told me that Demeter, the Greek Goddess of the Bountiful Harvest imposed a vegan diet.

Nope. I think they were for nuts and for those tough, uncooked veggies.

Actually your molars would be better for nuts as the fulcrum force required by your jaw to crack a nut is not sufficient for frontal teeth. Try cracking a walnut with your canines. Our sharp ancestral cuspids/canines are for tearing through the flesh of mammals and fish. Leaves and grasses do not require daggers for cutting teeth. Do some googleing and you'll see that species that do eat only grasses and leaves do not have canines. Heck, most don't even have upper front teeth as they mash up the tough vegetable fibrils with flat teeth. They also have specially evolved digestive systems for digesting plant cellulose. We don't.

No diseases are contracted when engaging in the sexually moral relationship between one man and one woman approved by God as stated in the Bible.

This implies that diseases are only transmissible by intercourse which is untrue. And sexual diseases can be prevented and cured without the need for any moral codes. Vaccines and antiviral therapies will continuously emerge to treat and thwart these.

May be those engaged in sexual immorality will be encouraged to stop and think about the hazards of their behavior and cease such activities in the interests of preventing death and suffering.

Yes people should be encouraged to educate themselves of the risks of contact with other organisms (in any form) but our biological urges prove too strong for most. Humans are a communal species with aggressive sexual tendencies, even those awash in mysticism. Biology is too strong a force, even for opiates like religion.

Will these antibiotics prevent the diseases from developing in the first place or are they only "after the fact" cures?

Both. Surely you've heard of vaccines.

I've read somewhere that these antibiotics are pretty strong medicine and have harmful side effects.

Some have side effects due to our lack of knowledge and technology as to how to design more precise treatments. This will change in the coming decades and centuries. Very few diseases will plague technologically advanced civilization soon as the tools to micromanage biological function are emerging now.

[william7]

Biology is too strong a force, even for opiates like religion.

The ethnographic record says otherwise. That record shows man is very versatile and capable of adapting to challenging circumstances. Look at what man has learned to do with science and technology. Certainly man can learn, with God's help, to defeat the biological urges you mention and live life in peace and happiness forever.

Both. Surely you've heard of vaccines.

Yeah, but I've heard they have significant side effects too. From my understanding, medical science is unable to develop a successful vaccine until after the new disease has developed and spread into the population and caused significant harm. This has been the lament of those trying to prepare a successful vaccine to combat the bird flu should it become transmissible from human to human.

Actually your molars would be better for nuts as the fulcrum force required by your jaw to crack a nut is not sufficient for frontal teeth. Try cracking a walnut with your canines. Our sharp ancestral cuspids/canines are for tearing through the flesh of mammals and fish. Leaves and grasses do not require daggers for cutting teeth. Do some googleing and you'll see that species that do eat only grasses and leaves do not have canines. Heck, most don't even have upper front teeth as they mash up the tough vegetable fibrils with flat teeth. They also have specially evolved digestive systems for digesting plant cellulose. We don't.

Even if our front teeth are well suited for meat eating, this does not change the fact that meat eating is unhealthy and a source of disease. The problem of Zoonoses should be enough of a lesson to us. We don't have to eat meat to live.

[Cyberbrain]

Btw, what IS God's plan anyway? And why is it important?