7 replies to this topic

[Gerald W. Gaston]

I've read that the most exogenous supplements "no longer work" or start to lose their effectiveness after 6-12 months of continued use. Do you agree with this?

Roger Mason (yes I know) states that "You can only take these for about 6 months, and maybe up to 12 months, and then will no longer work for you. Nearly all medicinal herbs are exogenous" here:

http://www.youngagai...genous_mean.htm

This BB article talks of cycling supplemments:

http://www.bodybuild...fun/phano85.htm

I'm sure a lot of us already cycling off supplements for short times (like 1 or 2 days a week) whether exogenous or endogenous, and are using certain herbs only during an acute need. But what of some of our more (well for some of use) "maintenance" suppliments and extracts (like Bocopa, Ashwagandha, Resveratrol, etc)?

Do you personally cycle these out completely? Do you try to use an alternative if possible for your particular use of a supplement (Ex: liver health - Milk thistle for 6 months, Liv52 for the other)?

Edited by frankbuzin, 20 January 2008 - 07:45 PM.

[sUper GeNius]

I've read that the most exogenous supplements "no longer work" or start to lose their effectiveness after 6-12 months of continued use. Do you agree with this?

Roger Mason (yes I know) states that "You can only take these for about 6 months, and maybe up to 12 months, and then will no longer work for you. Nearly all medicinal herbs are exogenous" here:

http://www.youngagai...genous_mean.htm

This BB article talks of cycling supplemments:

http://www.bodybuild...fun/phano85.htm

I'm sure a lot of us already cycling off supplements for short times (like 1 or 2 days a week) whether exogenous or endogenous, and are using certain herbs only during an acute need. But what of some of our more (well for some of use) "maintenance" suppliments and extracts (like Bocopa, Ashwagandha, Resveratrol, etc)?

Do you personally cycle these out completely? Do you try to use an alternative if possible for your particular use of a supplement (Ex: liver health - Milk thistle for 6 months, Liv52 for the other)?

I am seriously thinking about doing this. Maybe for a few weeks per year. Years ago I read that the Soviets did this with their soldiers and athletes.

[edward]

I've read that the most exogenous supplements "no longer work" or start to lose their effectiveness after 6-12 months of continued use. Do you agree with this?

Roger Mason (yes I know) states that "You can only take these for about 6 months, and maybe up to 12 months, and then will no longer work for you. Nearly all medicinal herbs are exogenous" here:

http://www.youngagai...genous_mean.htm

This BB article talks of cycling supplemments:

http://www.bodybuild...fun/phano85.htm

I'm sure a lot of us already cycling off supplements for short times (like 1 or 2 days a week) whether exogenous or endogenous, and are using certain herbs only during an acute need. But what of some of our more (well for some of use) "maintenance" suppliments and extracts (like Bocopa, Ashwagandha, Resveratrol, etc)?

Do you personally cycle these out completely? Do you try to use an alternative if possible for your particular use of a supplement (Ex: liver health - Milk thistle for 6 months, Liv52 for the other)?

I am seriously thinking about doing this. Maybe for a few weeks per year. Years ago I read that the Soviets did this with their soldiers and athletes.

There have been a few threads on this subject, one on harm reduction (I think Zoolander inspired that one). I really have no answers. I personally take one day off of all supplements (and drugs or what have you) a week accept for my multivitamin and my resveratrol stack and furthermore there are days where for sheer laziness, sheduling or whatever I am only able to take my morning and nighttime supplements, so that in and of itself is a little built in cycling. I think Zoolander takes 2 days off a week from supplements (all supplements I think), which would certainly be good for the pocketbook if not for the body as well. I would really love to hear others current ideas on this subject. Even though some things have been discussed before it doesnt mean that ideas cant change, new people with new ideas cant input etc etc.

edit: As far as complex cycles such as 6 months for this, 2 weeks for that, supplements for short term needs and the like, personally I think such a regimen would get so complicated it would drive me personally crazy. Furthermore I like evidence based practices and I haven't seen too many studies showing the benefits of this kind of routine so at best I think such a plan would involve even more guesswork than we are already doing.

Edited by edward, 21 January 2008 - 04:48 AM.

[Gerald W. Gaston]

There have been a few threads on this subject, one on harm reduction (I think Zoolander inspired that one). I really have no answers. I personally take one day off of all supplements (and drugs or what have you) a week accept for my multivitamin and my resveratrol stack and furthermore there are days where for sheer laziness, sheduling or whatever I am only able to take my morning and nighttime supplements, so that in and of itself is a little built in cycling. I think Zoolander takes 2 days off a week from supplements (all supplements I think), which would certainly be good for the pocketbook if not for the body as well. I would really love to hear others current ideas on this subject. Even though some things have been discussed before it doesnt mean that ideas cant change, new people with new ideas cant input etc etc.

edit: As far as complex cycles such as 6 months for this, 2 weeks for that, supplements for short term needs and the like, personally I think such a regimen would get so complicated it would drive me personally crazy. Furthermore I like evidence based practices and I haven't seen too many studies showing the benefits of this kind of routine so at best I think such a plan would involve even more guesswork than we are already doing.

I know there have been threads discussing short breaks... but specifically to the initial question: Does anyone here believe that most exogenous supplements lose their effectiveness after 6-12 months of continued use? That could be a reason to take such a long break and possibly find an alternate vector. I can only imagine none of the usual cast here believes this as I don't recall (or find it in a search) anyone bringing it up.

edit: directed the question to everyone

Edited by frankbuzin, 21 January 2008 - 05:50 AM.

[edward]

I know there have been threads discussing short breaks... but specifically to the initial question: Do you believe that most exogenous supplements lose their effectiveness after 6-12 months of continued use? That could be a reason to take such a long break and possibly find an alternate vector. I can only imagine none of the usual cast here believes this as I don't recall (or find it in a search) anyone bringing it up.

That is a good question. Some drugs lose their effectiveness after continued use (some hormones, CNS drugs etc.) the issues are very complicated and due to receptors being up or down regulated, feedback loops, enzymes being increased or decreased etc. Ones body want to return to homeostasis. I think we need some of the biochemists on the board to give us some more info on the subject with regards to supplements.

From my perspective, I am trying to take things that have been shown in long term studies to be beneficial for human populations and in Rats and other Mammals to be beneficial for years which translates to decades in humans.

There are supplements that I know of that supposedly showed beneficial measurable results long after supplementation ended. Bacopa and the ALCAR/ALA stack on cognitive functioning. So theoretically one could take a longer break from some supplements and still have benefits and then restart the supplments with one's body maybe being more sensitive to them... or in the time that you stopped taking them you could also accumulate more age related damage. I think for supplements like AGE blockers taking them most every day (multiple times per day) without cycling is a good thing as they are preventing the accumulation of damage, for other supplements maybe a longer break might be good.

For now ill stick with my mini breaks until I see some evidence. Its an interesting discussion though and maybe worth looking into but I think that it will have to be done on a supplement by supplement basis.

There is a guy on here JamesGreen who is really into the whole Telomerase idea and copying the TA-65 protocol which apparently does a lot of one month on one month off and the sort of cycling you are talking about maybe you should PM him and see his ideas. http://www.imminst.o...reen-m4099.html I not a believer, I've only talked to him to get his ideas on Astragalus/Astragalosides as telomerase enhancers, but he might give you a different perspective. I think he does things like two weeks of a SIRT Resveratrol based program then stops that and does two weeks of an Astragaloside Telomerase program and a month on and a month off of other things. Seemed way too complicated to me.

edit: spelling + more info

Edited by edward, 21 January 2008 - 06:06 AM.

[david ellis]

Roger Mason just makes stuff up as he goes along. I recommend that you don't waste your time reading him. Frankbuzin, he has already contaminated your mind with a definition of endogenous that doesn't match what the majority of folks use. And he even recognizes the problems that his definition cause and just merrily keeps making it up.

The definition used by most folks is that "Endogenous substances are those that originate from within an organism, tissue, or cell." Not a word about food being an endogenous substance. And Roger Mason acknowledges the difficulties of his definition because foods and spices can be peculiar to a certain region. His logic has an inconsistency, he recognizes it, and keeps on going. Amazing. Why would anybody believe anything he has to say after an example like that?

I've read that the most exogenous supplements "no longer work" or start to lose their effectiveness after 6-12 months of continued use. Do you agree with this?

Roger Mason (yes I know) states that "You can only take these for about 6 months, and maybe up to 12 months, and then will no longer work for you. Nearly all medicinal herbs are exogenous" here:

http://www.youngagai...genous_mean.htm

[Gerald W. Gaston]

Roger Mason just makes stuff up as he goes along. I recommend that you don't waste your time reading him. Frankbuzin, he has already contaminated your mind with a definition of endogenous that doesn't match what the majority of folks use. And he even recognizes the problems that his definition cause and just merrily keeps making it up.

Thanks for the reply David. I do try to limit my Roger exposure. I put that "(yes I know)" note beside his name because I realised after a few emails years ago, he was a legend in his own mind. :-)

It wasn't just his site that seems to push this idea though. Here are a quick two more:

supplementspot.com/thyroid.html
http://www.natural-t...trol-cures.html

But looking at them closer they (esp the thyroid one) look like a direct lift from Roger's site.

By his defintion, the metformin that took me from an avg fasting BG of 100 to now 87 should be all but worthless within the next 6 months or so.

Edited by frankbuzin, 21 January 2008 - 07:54 AM.

[david ellis]

By his defintion, the metformin that took me from an avg fasting BG of 100 to now 87 should be all but worthless within the next 6 months or so.

And carrying his logic a bit further we have to worry that steak and bread will become ineffective in 6-12 months.

Thinking about Roger Mason is a lot of fun - he is so outrageous. Here is a quote from your link where he thinks money is wasted on health insurance and better spent on PREVENTION with HIS supplements.

"You will be infinitely better off spending a hundred dollars or more every month for these proven natural supplements and hormones than you will for an overpriced health insurance plan. Health plans only help you symptomatically after the fact. PREVENTION IS YOUR BEST PROTECTION and not some after-the-fact hospitalization coverage you pay too much for."

This is cruel self serving advice offered by Roger Mason. The only fun is that he is such an extreme caricature of venality.