<BJKlein> “Together with other free peoples, we are now fighting to maintain our right to live among our world neighbors in freedom, in common decency, without fear of assault.”
<caliban> (not good conditions for any trial)
<BJKlein> From FDR’s Dec. 9, 1941 “Fireside Chat”
<BJKlein> OFFICIAL CHAT BEGINS NOW
<BJKlein> I hope to make it a regular event to start the chats with about an 8 minute monologue. Thus, I’ll ask that the chatter be kept to a trickle… I’ll let you know when I’m finished.
<Ziana> lol, k
<BJKlein> You can think of tonight’s chat as a sort of trial run of sorts… We’ll get into more immortalist and transhumanist topics in the coming weeks… I’m aware that most of us are relatively young are probably not to terribly concerned about cancer. Nevertheless, cancer is important in terms of life extension and health.
<BJKlein> Any Questions?
<caliban> :-)
<Sumadartsun> No questions
<BJKlein> Tonight’s Fireside Chat Topic:
<BJKlein> “CANCER, the immortal cell.”
<BJKlein> Be thinking of personal stories about cancer and information you’d like to share after the monologue. This will be over in about 8 mins.
<BJKlein> if the site was up...
<BJKlein> you can could go to the followin link for more info.
<BJKlein> http://www.imminst.o...c...;f=49&t=183
<BJKlein> What is Cancer?
<BJKlein> Cancer is the second leading cause of death in the United States next to heart disease, and will claim more than half a million lives this year.
<BJKlein> What we think of as "Cancer" is actually a group of more than one hundred separate diseases. These diseases are all characterized by an abnormal and unregulated growth of cells.
<BJKlein> Basically genetic instructions go wrong within a cell and it starts dividing uncontrollably and the cells do not die off. Every time the cell divides, the "bad" instruction is reproduced, so the out-of-control reproduction carries on.
<BJKlein> Cancer cells are known to grow much faster than healthy cells and they grow into lumps and lesions which can become so large as to grow their own blood vessels for energy supply.
<BJKlein> to fast to slow?
<BJKlein> you can respond to that question..
<BJKlein> just want to make sure i'm not going to fast...
<BJKlein> or that anyone is paying attention.
<caliban> ah! i thought it was a rethorical figure :-)
<Sumadartsun>
<BJKlein> heh
<caliban> sped is ok- maybe a bit to slow
<BJKlein> alrighty...
<BJKlein> One of the frightening things about cancer is the possibility of metastasis. This is the process where millions of malignant cells are released from the tumor (the primary) into the bloodstream.
<BJKlein> Ok… so what are the current methods of treatment?
<BJKlein> 1. Surgery: Cut the damn thing out..
<BJKlein> 2. RadioTherapy: Blow the damn thing up…
<BJKlein> 3. Chemotherapy: Kill it with poison...
<BJKlein> Here’s a little more detail on the three current treatment methods….
<BJKlein> 1. Surgery is the oldest way to treat cancer. If the tumor is relatively localized, it can be surgically removed. Often, a border of healthy tissue surrounding the tumor is also taken to ensure that all of the malignant cells have been removed. Surgery is commonly used for cancer of the breast, colon, mouth, head and neck, kidney, testes and other parts of the body.
<Ziana> lol re treatment method summary
<BJKlein>
<BJKlein> 2. Radiation therapy, also know as radiotherapy, x-ray therapy, cobalt therapy, or irradiation, is useful in fighting cancer because it destroys cancer cells more easily than normal cells. Radiotherapy is commonly delivered with an external beam of x-rays, gamma rays or alpha and beta particles directed at the tumor. Radioactive pellets or wires can also be used internally if they are put in a tiny container and then implanted into the body near the tumor.
<BJKlein> 3. Chemotherapy or drug therapy is used to kill cancer cells, while attempting to limit the damage to normal cells. Chemotherapy is useful in fighting cancer that has spread to other parts of the body and cannot be easily detected or treated with surgery or radiation therapy. Of the roughly 50 anticancer drugs, some can be used alone, or in combination with other anticancer drugs.
<BJKlein> Current Cancer Survival Rates:
<Aaron> all 3 therapies can be used together
<BJKlein> true
<BJKlein> MEN
<BJKlein> Lung 77 %
<BJKlein> Prostate 77 %
<BJKlein> Colorectal 56 %
<BJKlein> Bladder 49 %
<BJKlein> WOMEN
<BJKlein> Breast 97 %
<BJKlein> Colorectal 33 %
<BJKlein> Lung 35 %
<BJKlein> Ovary 17 %
<BJKlein> Uterus 11 %
<Ziana> chemo drugs tend to have powerful side-effects
<BJKlein> yep.. here a little on that...
<BJKlein> Why does the hair fall out?
<BJKlein> Because some chemotherapy targets fast-growing, or fast-dividing cells, it is more likely to harm similar cells in the body. These include the cells in the hair follicles, which is why cancer treatment is often associated with hair loss, although hair does regrow once treatment has ended
<Aaron> it kills any fast growing cells
<BJKlein> Other fast-dividing cells can be found in the stomach and bowel lining, which leads to nausea and diarrhoea.
<Aaron> oh. lol retorhicle question
<BJKlein> Aaron: yep
<BJKlein> Just about finished..
<BJKlein> THE FUTURE
<BJKlein> Cancer researchers believe they are close unlocking the complete genetic makeup of many common cancers.
<BJKlein> At the moment, doctors know about a number of genes which predispose someone towards developing cancer, such as the BRCA1 gene in breast cancer.
<BJKlein> However, understanding the complete gene map of cancer will allow doctors to spot early those who are likely to develop the condition.
<BJKlein> Eventually, people could even be implanted with a "gene chip" which could detect the earliest signs of the genetic mutations that cause cancer.
<BJKlein> A patient could check themselves up with a home computer, which could then contact the GP by e-mail to arrange an appointment if something is wrong.
<BJKlein> OK… That ends the monologue.. Thanks for listening.. Please feel free to comment.
<Aaron> IIRC BRCA1 only accounts for about 10% of the cases
<BJKlein> true..
<BJKlein> are you in the field Aaron?
<Aaron> my mom had breast cancer twice
<BJKlein> and she had all three treatment methods?
<Aaron> other treatments I've heard about:
<Aaron> (yes)
<Ziana> here's an article about an attempt to find a more 'generic' anti-cancer drug: http://www.scienceda...20708081712.htm
<Aaron> something to do with releasign a die and a toxen together that would bind to cancer cells only, and then the bodies immune system would destry the cancer
<BJKlein> I hope she's ok now..
<Aaron> yep
<Aaron> 10 years since her first time. she was only 35 at the time.
<BJKlein> Ziana... the vaccine idea is quite interesting.. i'v only recently looked in it...
<caliban> actually there are about 40- 10.000+ treatments out there depending on how you count - but you have named the 3 most prominent
<BJKlein> I also believe that our bodies are constantly "fixing" cancer cells.. our immune system is fighting cancer cells all the time
<Aaron> http://news.google.c...G=Google Search
<caliban> it often depends on the type of cancer as well - which is somewhat puzzling as cancer as such would seem to be a generic condition
<BJKlein> right.. there are so many types of cancer..
<caliban> maybe
<caliban> on the cancer vaccine: that might actually be easier to set up than a foolprof treatment (my guess) - but the gene chip is a wild idea BJ
<BJKlein> yes.. I tried to find the most advanced idea
<BJKlein> of course.. nanotech would be the most
<caliban> nanotech is the answer to life the universe and everyting ;-)
<BJKlein> heh..
<caliban> I read a novel a while back where someone who wanted to live forever suceeded, but did not stop growing- eventually he was planing to go into the sea, ... but the hero killed him :-(
<Ziana> oh, here's a good one... http://www.newscient...p?id=ns99992767
<BJKlein> wonders if everyone is watching football or something..
<Aaron> http://www.newscient...o...amp;x=0&y=0
<Ziana> aaron- excuuuse my specificness ;-) ;-)
<Aaron> lol
<Aaron> I hadn't seen your post until after I made mine.
<BJKlein> wow both newscientist.. that calls for a "jinks"
<Ziana> lol
<Aaron> :D
<BJKlein> well, the one thing I like about the monologue...
<BJKlein> it makes me learn about a topic
<BJKlein> like I said.. i'll explore more transhuman topics in the coming weeks
<BJKlein> any suggestions for next week?
<Aaron> hmm
<caliban> 4being proactive about life extention!
<caliban> sorry
<Mind> Hiya all
* BJKlein chiching
<BJKlein> welcome m
<BJKlein> Mind
<BJKlein> your only 30mins to late for the official chat
<Mind> Sorry...I was out getting a little exercise
<BJKlein> np, i'll post to the forum...
<Lazarus> And I will be late to my own funeral
<BJKlein> Lazarus
<Mind> What did I miss?
<Mind> Howdy Laz
<BJKlein> Official Topic: Cancer
<Lazarus> Hello folks,
<BJKlein> Treatments and Personal Experience
<Lazarus> Question First, Why does the .org site appear offline?
<caliban> BJ: did you look into the Telomerase <-> Cancer story?
<BJKlein> btw, site server is down... not sure when it'll be back.. ;(
<Mind> I am very fortunate (knock on wood) no one in my family has ever died of cancer
<BJKlein> caliban: yes quickly
<Ziana> hiya lazarus and mind
<Lazarus> OK thanks, HIya Ziana
<Lazarus> I am facing cancer all my life
<Mind> HelloCaliban...I just wanted to say sorry for starting a "closed" discussion last week
<BJKlein> Cancer: Second leading cause of death.. after heart disease.. half-million die each yr. however, I hear that the rate of death is going down
<Lazarus> My father was a reasercher since the 50', my MOm died from it and my best friend has prostate cancer
<Mind> ;-(
<Lazarus> He is schedueled for a radical prostecomy on the 11th of Oct
<Mind> brb
<caliban> (Mind: thats ok - reminded me of going back to work)
<Lazarus> After all the oprions presented to him and his disgonisis in stage 2 he opted to go for removal as the best way to get cancer free
<BJKlein> Lazarus, did you say he looked into any alternative treatment options?
<BJKlein> ahh
<Lazarus> Yes he did but any alternative leave him at risk of subsequent metastization
<Lazarus> The cancer is still encapsulated inthe prostate
<Lazarus> ONly by going in can the uestion of spreading be addressed with any certainty
<Lazarus> This is the same question facing women
<Lazarus> with breat or uterine cancer
<BJKlein> yes
<Mind> Isn't prostate cancer the leading cancer among men
<Mind> ??
<BJKlein> I've been looking for that info....
<Lazarus> Yes and a recent study shows that surgery is still the best option
<BJKlein> here's an interesting stat related:
<BJKlein> Current Cancer Survival Rates:
<BJKlein> MEN
<BJKlein> Lung 77 %
<BJKlein> Prostate 77 %
<BJKlein> Colorectal 56 %
<BJKlein> Bladder 49 %
<Mind> I see they are using a freezing method now too
<BJKlein> WOMEN
<BJKlein> Breast 97 %
<BJKlein> Colorectal 33 %
<BJKlein> Lung 35 %
<BJKlein> Ovary 17 %
<BJKlein> Uterus 11 %
<Lazarus> The problem with the surgical option is that its effectiveness diminishes greatly sa a second choice option
* Aaron reminds himself to eat more veggies
<Mind> I have always wondered why the breast and prostate?
<Lazarus> Yes but freezing is a modification of the surgical option and is best in stage one, or if there is a reason not to remove the proste entirely
<BJKlein> yes.. why does cancer occur in the breast of all places?
<caliban> Laz: for prostate cancer? do you have that study at hand?
<Mind> The prostate is inside the body, and I would suspect more shielded from radiation and toxic chemicals
<Lazarus> Caliban, which study? The one BJ just quoted sounded like the same sats that I saw
<Mind> It also doesn't seem like breasts would be special place for the accumulation of chemicals or radiation
<Mind> Yet this is where most of the cancer occurs
<Lazarus> Cancer is associated with sexual functions related to hormone production
<caliban> Laz; the study that shows that surgery is the best option
<Mind> hhmmm
<BJKlein> sex kills
<Lazarus> Anywhere the body uses hormones to alter and modify organ functin to meet procreative need
<Mind> Do you know a good resource/website where I can read about the hormone connection to cancer?
<Lazarus> runs a higher risk of developing cancer later in life
<BJKlein> testostrone, estrogen..
<BJKlein> ehh spelling
<BJKlein> testosterone
<Lazarus> It is in the stas for which organs are most likely to develop cancers
<Mind> ok
<Lazarus> it isn' the hormones themselves it is more comlex
<caliban> Mind: are you familliar with pubmed?
<Ziana> http://www.acs.ohio-...ok/hormones.pdf
<BJKlein> you know it's interesting that the human body only starts to show clasical sighns of aging after the onset of puberty
<Lazarus> It has to do with function, for example women who don' smoke and breast feed their children ca reduce their risk of breast cancer by 34%
<Mind> The best resource I have ever read about radiation and cancer was my college physics book
<Mind> 34%!!!!
<Lazarus> Not having children for a woman however doesn' mean a reductin in risk, infact possibly the reverse
<BJKlein> hmm that link does't work for me Ziana
<caliban> Ziana/BJ: link works but is VERY basic info
<BJKlein> k
<Lazarus> There is a complex interactin with environmental toxins at work as well
<Mind> That is my feeling also
<Ziana> bj- eh, works for me... try http://216.239.51.10...ok/hormones.pdf
<Lazarus> Women who smoke and take the pill dramtically increase their cancer risk
<Mind> Seeing how cancer rates have skyrocketed in the last century leades me to believe
<BJKlein> there we go... thanks Ziana
<Ziana> np
<Mind> that diet and environmental stressors are the cause of cancer
<Aaron> my mom blames the hormones that they put in cows. don't know what she bases that on
<BJKlein> Mind, I believe it's more due to our increasin lifespan...
<Mind> Toxins, increased radiation, poor diet
<Aaron> agreed BJ
<BJKlein> from an average of 45 to 75 in 100yrs
<Mind> That too
<Lazarus> not one environmental cause, stress also is a factor as well as the fact that we are living long enough to die from cancer instead of famine and violence
<Mind> and the flu
<caliban> BJ : to ask the same question that i posed Mind -- are you familiar with pubmed?
<Mind> 45 to 75 and still going up
<BJKlein> sorry no caliban.
<BJKlein> should I be?
<caliban> yes
<BJKlein> why?
<caliban> http://www.ncbi.nlm....trez/query.fcgi
<Lazarus> My dad died last year at 90 from complications with the procedures they used to find out if he had prostate cancer
<Mind> just the procedures?!
<caliban> it is THE biomedical ressource for articles
<Lazarus> He didn' have cancer just an enlarged prostate which all men look forward to if they live long enough
<Mind> I see the site "pubmed" looks interesting
<caliban> it has almost a monopoly
<Mind> thanks caliban
<Lazarus> But the uroscopiy git screwed up and they sent him home with internal hemoraging
<Mind> yikes
<Lazarus> He walked to emergancy room after 36 hours of bleeding and then when they were treating him for blood loss they gave him congestive heart failure
<Lazarus> he never had cancer
<caliban> Laz: :-(
<Mind> Makes one lose faith in doctors
<caliban> you shoul sue them!!
<Mind> some doctors
<Lazarus> he was a reatively healthy 90 but fragile
<Lazarus> he was a doctor
<BJKlein> http://www.sciencema...y/297/5588/1822
<Lazarus> He chose his physicians professionally
<BJKlein> BRCA2 Enters the Fray
<Mind> .I remember you talking about him before
<Lazarus> All of us that are male her can look forward to a probable problem with the prostate if we live long enough
<Mind> yep
<Lazarus> whether through cancer or the fact that it is one of the few glands that continues to grow all through life
<Mind> I wonder if the concentration of hormones in specific areas of the body, also promotes a concentration of toxins?
<Lazarus> Eventually the damn thing will constrict the uterus in a male
<Lazarus> I also ask that question Mind
<Aaron> well... I've got to go.
<Mind> see ya
<Aaron> it's been fun. laterz.
<BJKlein> Ok..Take Care Aaron
<Lazarus> My friend is a mechanic and we have long had a running debate about how his exposure to toxins needs to be better ddressed
<Lazarus> be well aron
<Mind> I try to live toxin-free, but it is tough
<BJKlein> yes, i'd like to see a study of farmers, cleaning ladies, and others exposed to toxins for cancer rates
<Mind> there are traces of synthetics in everything nowadays
<BJKlein> how are you guys on cell phones?
<Mind> As you know, I grew up on a farm...but we rarely used chemicals
<Lazarus> I think because of the genetically voltile nature of sexual function that the likeluyhood of mutation leading to carcinogenic production is greater in sexual organs
<Mind> I use the ear piece with a cell-phone
<BJKlein> good point Lazarus
<BJKlein> same here Mind
<Lazarus> The problem with microwave radiation is that it is incipent and insidious
<Mind> I keep the phone about 2 feet away from my body
<Lazarus> It isn' just the phones we use but the transmissions going through us all the time
<Mind> There radiation decreases as an inverse square...so I figure the radiation is fairly small that hits my body
<BJKlein> I wonder too about staying in front of a computer screen for 10-12 hrs perday
<Mind> lol
<Lazarus> tower to tower and from a variety of radar devices from hand held speed ticketing cops to downlook weather radar
<Ziana> there have been studies that cell phones do not cause cancer...
<Mind> and some that still leave the question open
<Lazarus> It does diminish from our phones but you can still cook a bird alive if it gets too close to a big source
<Mind> My TV station uses a 100,000 watt mgnetron radar
<Ziana> if computer screens did, cancer would be even *more* common ;-)
<Mind> magnetron radar
<Lazarus> There oare conflicting studies associated with high voltage transmission towers
<Mind> very conflicting
<Mind> What we need is more distributed energy production
<Mind> that way we wouldn't even need the transmission lines
<caliban> (cellphones) imho -any study on that is premature cancer is a long- term risk
<BJKlein> on energy production... i'm starting to get excited about fuel cells
<Lazarus> Micro atomic fusion cells
<Mind> the key is the membrane
<Lazarus> nanobased assembly will make them possible
<Lazarus> the problem is social
<Davidov> If fuel cells ever get powerful enough the Middle East will again have virtually no value to the US
<Mind> the membrane is still exhorbitantly pirced
<BJKlein> yes... true Davidov
<Mind> spelling**
<Lazarus> any battery strong enough to power a house for a year can be short circuited to take out a few square blocks
<caliban> woha hi Davidov :-)
<Davidov> hey caliban
<Mind> no batteries
<Mind> small generators
<Lazarus> Itis also a socioeconomic issue because the GRID is a vested interest and they don' want to lose the income from meters
<Mind> sadly
<Lazarus> small scale generatin is very environmetally unfriendly and innefficient
<Mind> I am going to buy a fuel cell power plant as soon as I can afford to and get off the grid
<Lazarus> depending on teh power source it uses
<Lazarus> solar is safe as well as lovcal hydroelectric but there is no easy answer
<Davidov> Fuel cells could bankrupt power companies too... I wonder if they'd try to suppress fuel cell usage
<Mind> hopefully nanotech will make solar more efficient
<Mind> has anyone seen any recent work on solar cells...in regards to nana
<Davidov> Or make subsidiary companies to monopolize the fuel cell industry
<Mind> nano
<Lazarus> back to cancer, my genetics prof used to say all carcinogens are mutagens but not all mutatgens are carcinogens
<Lazarus> cancer is a mutagenic process run amok
<Lazarus> bad DNA software and that is a part of the viral link as well
* caliban is fascinated how you moved from cancer to political issues in power supply ;-)
<Lazarus> again that is partof the sexual functin relatinship
<Mind> transmission lines...the connection
<BJKlein> heh
<Lazarus> I am trying to get back;)
<Mind> One thing that amazes me is how some people go into remission without treatment
<Lazarus> there is a problem that many elements of the modern lifestyle are inherently bad for us but dissecting which ones is not easy
<Mind> I know it ist'nt many people statistically
<Mind> but it is still amazing
<Mind> how does their body stop the cancer
<Mind> when so many others are helpless against it
<Davidov> Could someone give me a good reason pot is illegal?
<caliban> I had a rogue Prof who was *convinced* that it is indeed bacteria that cause cancer
<Lazarus> again some peoles may have a genetic ability to reverse the process and this is still not understood but that article that BJ referred to the other day may be associated with that
<Mind> ok
<Lazarus> DAvidov, $$$$$$$$$$$$
<Davidov> I thought so, Lazarus
<Mind> Of course...the libertarian in me thinks pot should be legal
<Davidov> I mean, many people die of alcohol poisoning... I've never heard of someone dying from a OD of pot
<Lazarus> It is an inverse application of the meme for taboo behavior
<Mind> I do not use pot because all the people I know who do...are slackers
<Lazarus> making anything illegal increases desirability and increases the profit potential
<Mind> It seems their heads are foggy all the time
<Lazarus> Anyone who argues it is not a drug is high
<BJKlein> I would have to agree there Mind
* caliban wonders if he can detect a transmission line this time
<Davidov> I don't smoke it either, it just seems ridiculous that it is legal, considering its mainstream use. Alcohol in the 1920s couldn't be effectively banned, why try with pot? It has to be the money
<Mind> must be money
<Davidov> illegal *
<Lazarus> Why use it if it has no effect and it is an antidepressent that works on memory
<Davidov> I'm becoming the king of typos right now
<Davidov> Apparently some people like it Lazarus
<Mind> I can't see that using it would help me any
<Lazarus> no I still have you beat by my dyslexic toe typing
<Mind> I get natural highs all the time without using drugs
<caliban> some people smoke pot to get rid of the pain from cancer... (hint)
<BJKlein> canada's legislature has proposed to legalize it an tax/regulate pot and it has lots of support [chestnut]
<Lazarus> Of course they like it, it works and has less side effects than many legal psychotroe sfor someone that wants self medicate
<Davidov> I'm not going to smoke any, personally, but apparently the govt. makes $$$$$ off of busting people - it's also a good political card to get old-generation voters
<Lazarus> more than 60% of all USA arrests are for simple possession
<Davidov> Ridiculous
<Davidov> bbl... food intake time
<Lazarus> the courst are clogged thatis why a quiet campaign is underway lead by of all people judges, governors and a few less political DA' to legalize
<Mind> I do not like all the people in jail for non-violent possession charges
<Mind> it is sad
<Lazarus> The cost to state infrstructure to maintain this pogrom is getting overwhelming and stupid in the face of an aledged war on terrorism
<Mind> I do not like the fact that there are so many people in jail
<Mind> to clarify
<BJKlein> the high arrest of pot suers [not sellers] has caused overcrouded jails and letting many felony/misdeamenour offenders out early just b/c we can't house all...
<Lazarus> The problem is that the penal system is bevcoming a big business and a competition for education funding
<BJKlein> Lazarus: yes [chestnut]
<Lazarus> peole will fund huge tax bills for more prisons even as they cut back on funds for education
<Mind> Crime has gone down
<Lazarus> so now we are building classroom space behind bars
<Lazarus> Exactly Mind, but the parochial mindset hasn' gone away
<Mind> criminologists were expecting a huge increase in crime in the late 90's that never materialized
<Mind> Is it because of the good economy
<Mind> or
<Mind> because more people are locked up
<BJKlein> we are also mixing robbery, traffincking, speeding in same facility...how can this be a good thing?
<Mind> not good
<Mind> agreed
<Lazarus> precisely so now what is happenning is that 3 strike rules is causing us to keep people in prison until their 70' s for trivial stuff and long after they are no threat
<Mind> not good
<Lazarus> also they underground economy is funded by a loose and arcane relatinship between illegal traffikers and intelligence operatives that piggyback their operations on that avenue of transport
<Lazarus> and profit
<Lazarus> aka Iran/Contra
<BJKlein> I agree that using pot is not a wise choice unless you are very ill but maybe it should be regulated like ciggaretts and alcohol? [chestnut...sorry but I am using bj's keynard and the keys are not normal!]
<Mind> Remember the A-society simulations I posted at the home to immortals...once a certain percentage (fairly small) of the simulation was locked up...the socitey quickly became rampantly honest
<Ziana> keynard! lol
<Mind> I posted a link that is
<Lazarus> There is no reason that marijuana couldn't be regulated and taxed
<Mind> I agree
<Mind> Even though I would rather not have the government into greater regulation...it would be better than what is going on now
<Lazarus> I have a problem with all self destructive behaviors as it effects the issue of health cost
<BJKlein> I think as a society we must define why we are locking people up? is it to deter? to rehabilitate? ...we are not doing a good job of the latter.
<Lazarus> but we can't even have a ratinal discussion on this issue till we get out of the prohibition stage problem
<Davidov> Both, BJ
<Lazarus> They aren' detring, and they have little to no interest in rehabilitation
<Mind> Self-destructive behavior is a drag on society...but I am against forced behavior modification by the government
<Lazarus> That is just political rhetoric
<Mind> through taxes and such
<Lazarus> What about cost of coverage?
<BJKlein> by locking various criminal up together, by overgrouded jails, by lating criminals out on probation n/c the jails are overcroused, we do neither. [chest]
<Lazarus> you want me to contribute to your health care expense, then I wan' you to lose weight and quit smoking
<Lazarus>
<Mind> lol
<Mind> good thing I don't smoke
<Lazarus> I was creating the example
<Mind> lol
<Lazarus> People are concerned about health care costs and cig' but being overweight may even be worse in termsof overall expenditures
<Mind> That is the way I feel sometimes too...
<Mind> If we establish a national health care system
<Mind> I will be paying for everyone else's bad hanits
<Mind> elses'
<Mind> ?
<Mind> *spelling*
<Mind> habits
<BJKlein> when I think of rehab I think they should work hard! labor, and take courses. Our county jails have no books, no libraries, nothing but 1 tv in a crouded no window room. No work is done..This is not teaching then others ways of living...
<Davidov> I completely agree BJ
<Lazarus> But if these habits carried a cost per risk basis and associated treatment strategies that were based on effectiveness then at least the discussion about how much and what to cover could be more rational
<Davidov> We might as well lock them up in solitary confinement
<Lazarus> You're in Alabama right Chestnut?
<Mind> plenty of them are in solitary
<BJKlein> yup [chest]
<Davidov> I mean them all, Mind
<Mind> I get what you mean
<Lazarus> At least they have conjugal visits and work to keep families intact
<Mind> And some prisons try to teach job skills
<Lazarus> they even allow a salary for inmates based on minimum wage I believe, we live in astrange doppelganger world
<Mind> They do bring in chaplains/ministers...I know you probably think that is useless BJ, but it can help some poeple
<Lazarus> Alabama is low on education, 48 in the natin I believe
<Mind> 48th?!!
<Davidov> SC, where I am, is also low.
<Davidov> Somewhere between 49 and 50th haha
<Mind> Wisconsin...Near the top...not bragging
<Lazarus> But ironically they haev been addressing other pragmatic aspects of rehabilitative penal codes by virtue of (don't get mad Mind) Federal Intervention for 40 years
<Davidov> What is the top?
<BJKlein> well no visits if in the county jail where most are kept b/c the long term facility is overcrouded and a criminal must wait for a bed. So last year the county let almost all non-violent criminal out on probation ...great...not! and most have come back aain since they have no skill otherwise.chest]
<Mind> aaarrrgggg!!!!
<Mind> not gettin gmad...not getting mad...:-)
<Davidov> haha
<caliban_lurks_infrequently> fits your topic --- Something nrv8 bombarded me with : More black men in jail than at college in US --- http://www.guardian......82118,00.html
<Lazarus> Wisconsin Penal system is weird, Thommy really did a number on you folks, Do you even still have a Huber Exemption?
<Mind> yes
<Mind> strong huber system
<Lazarus> The old Huber Law allowed inmates to leave jail every day and keep their jobs
<Mind> still does
<Mind> for all the DUI people
<Lazarus> Good law but Thomson put in the 3 Strike rule didn't he?
<Mind> you know Wisconsin...most taverns per quare mile in the world
<Lazarus> Janesville or drunk!
<Mind> In fact...I think as far as taverns per capita...Wisconsin has 7 of the top ten cities in the world
<Mind> With La Crosse being #1
<Mind> yikes
<BJKlein> well most criminals should be learning a trade, or working everyday instead of just boxed in a 1 room area talking with other criminals. There has also been a severe increase in latinos in jail for trafficking [ches]
<Mind> yes there is a 3 strikes law
<Lazarus> When Wisco was an 18 year old drinking state and all the border states were 21 the death toll at the border towns was horrific
<Mind> Yes they should be learning something...I agree
<BJKlein> and thay should be seperated based on crime ...
<Mind> yes good policy
<Lazarus> Chestnut prisons are where most criminals go for advanced study in how to commit crimes it is where they divide the amatures from the professinals
<BJKlein> ches=
<Mind> What about sex-offenders?
<Mind> There is big controversy on how to deal with them
<Mind> once they are out
<Lazarus> That is the weird unconstitutinal crap that got passed by your legislature a few years ago
<Mind> Psycologists say that they can never be cured
<BJKlein> cut their *&^% off.. [chest]
<BJKlein> just kidding [chest]
<Mind> :-)
<Mind> Would that be cruel and unusual punishment
<BJKlein> no [chest]
<Lazarus> Very PC but garbage from a Constitutional perspective, after they do their time then decide now they are sick so lets lock em up again
<BJKlein> well the problem is that if it's all mental how can they be cured now?
<Mind> I feel they should be let out after they do their time
<Mind> but should be monitored closely
<Mind> closely
<BJKlein> in the future with technology could we alter their sense of right/wrong?
<Lazarus> Either they are sick in the beginning so treat them or they are criminals and stop trying to ignore the constitution
<Mind> Also...teen sex offenders...which really isn't criminal should not get the same treatment as adult child sutff
<Lazarus> Why not alter their sexuality Chestnut? Turn rapists into women.
<BJKlein> I agree for now if they are let out after serving all their time, not released early, they should be on a national register
<Lazarus> It isn't cruel being a women isn't aberrant
<Lazarus> Let the punishment fit the crime
<BJKlein> Lazarus: good suggestion about turing them into womens...then the can rape themselves and see how they like it
<Lazarus> Let the rapist understand how it feels on the otherside of the relatinship
<Mind> 16 year old guy +16 year old girl (consensual) should not be a crime
<Lazarus> agreed Mind and a totally seperate issue that is getting lumped together
<Mind> It is an archaic law that needs to be adjusted
<Lazarus> thatis the problem with heavy handed PC legislation
<Mind> Yes
<BJKlein> question: if perception is a nanobot away, then if we can change one's criminal tendency, should they still be in jail for the sentence? and if it was mental to begin with=is it their fault for being criminal?
<Lazarus> BUt lets go back to cancer
<Lazarus> A beter questionis do we want to micromanage individual behavior in that way Chestnut?
<Lazarus> I worry that the cure is worse than the disease
<BJKlein> Lazarus: I agree tough question unless the crime is such like rape, murder,
<Mind> Yes...one of those scary "Unabomber" computer/government control scenarios
<Mind> micromanaging behavior
<Lazarus> IN my story line for the Meme Makers I question some of this issue
<nrv8>
<nrv8> hii
<Lazarus> I point out that AI might able to usurp total control over individual will by intent as a form of punishment
<Mind> The temptation for lawmakers will be quite great....once powerful behavorial control of the mind is possible
<Lazarus> hi nrv8
<BJKlein> but if it is wihtin societies power to make a criminal sane, should we not? although gov't could say any rebelion is criminal...scary slippery slide
<BJKlein> hi nrv7
<nrv8> BRUCER!
<Mind> hi nvr6
<Lazarus> That sanity thatis practical control, they are not equivalent
<BJKlein> I mwan nrv8 ooppp [ches]
<BJKlein> mean
<nrv7> !op
<nrv7> my ops dont work in here
<BJKlein> it's this damn BJ keynoard
<nrv7> odd
<Ziana> keynoard... lol
<Lazarus> That is NOT sanity, that is practical control
<nrv7> hi Ziana1
<nrv7> 1
<nrv7> !
<BJKlein> devorak!!!!
<Lazarus> and I don't have a keynard, just my daughter pestering me
<Ziana> lol!
<BJKlein> this is not funny! urrggg
<Mind> The way I see it...if their are powerful virtual realities for "bad" people to act out their violence in then maybe they will not in the real world
<Ziana> you could change the keynard settings even if the letters printed on the keys are different...
<Ziana> ;-)
<BJKlein> thanks...:-)
<Mind> whatever the "real" world is
<BJKlein> now BJ does not have total control :o)
<Lazarus> lol
<caliban_lurks_infrequently> :-)
<Mind> :#)
<Ziana> he's possessed! ;-)
<Mind> :^)
<BJKlein> hahaa.....
<BJKlein> Laz I am so impressed with you Meme article
<Lazarus> back to cancer, is there a most likely scenario for prevention that we should be encouraging?
<Lazarus> Thanks Chestnut
<Mind> So...back to cancer...since cancer affects people more as they age...anti-aging research should naturally lead us towards better cures/treatments for cancer
<Lazarus> And what about recent therapies involving turning off the blood supply to tumor growth
<BJKlein> vaccine idea sounds interesting [BJ is back]
<Mind> turning of the blood supply was discovered back in 1972
<Lazarus> so you are now flying the Keynard BJ?
<BJKlein> no I have it again [chest]
<Mind> however...since all of the funding in the 70's went towards a search for a cancer virus...
<Mind> the "turning off the blood supply" method was ignored
<Lazarus> Yes the idea is old Mind but recent genetic study shows us a new approach for doing it without killing the organ in the process
<Mind> until recently
<Lazarus> it seems we can just turn off the gene that creates the capillariy interface with the blood supply for the tumor]
<Lazarus> very elegant
<Mind> I know
<Mind> I am so sad that this method was ignored for so many years
<Lazarus> its potential hasn' been developed however and this still isn't prevention
<caliban> actually the search for the cancer virus is quite interessting- loads of money went into that with relatively little results
<Mind> mostly zero results
<Mind> a great failure
<Mind> and waste of money
<Mind> stop me before I mention AID.....
<Mind> AID
<Mind> AI
<Mind> uuugghhh
<Lazarus> an awful lot of ccancer research funding was a boondoggle directed at building institutes, not finding cures
<Ziana> lol
<caliban> well there were spinnoffs- we would not know as much about AIDS for starters
<caliban> Mind: the keynard?
<Lazarus> You need a better nano finger interface Mind, I know I do ;>)
<Mind> yes
<BJKlein> today the only choices are chemo, radiation, and removal... and different types of cancer have to be dealt with differently... I don't know of other treatments NOW or to be available in 3 years...sad
<Ziana> lol
<Mind> Chemo is getting better with better delivery though
<caliban> BJ: well there are loads of other treatments- most of them somewhat experimental though
<Lazarus> Hormone therapy and genetic interference is coming on line but the rules for this are reasonably very strict
<Mind> and radiation is better targetted nowadays also
<Lazarus> like the seed approach in prostate cancer
<Lazarus> and breast
* Ziana 'll be off now...
<Lazarus> but what about the topographic raditation approaches?
<Mind> ??
<Lazarus> be well Ziana
<Lazarus> the ability to create a wave interference effect that is specific sown to the cellular level
<Ziana> be well... where have i heard that... demolition man?
<Mind> Don't laugh...what is a keynard?
<BJKlein> adios Ziana thanx for the info on dvorak[ches]
<Lazarus> where the waves interface they lyse cells where they don't the tissue lives
<Ziana> 'keynard' = 'keyboard' with some typos ;-)
<caliban> bye Ziana
<Ziana> np, possessed-BJ ;-)
<Mind> bye
<Lazarus> bye
<Lazarus> It is reversing what we are learning from iMRI
<Mind> Sounds promising
<Ziana> yes, it *was* demolition man! i actually remembered correctly, yay ;-)
<Ziana> ta-ta
<caliban> Laz: reversing? could you elaborate?
<Lazarus> we are creating the ability ot produce a holographic field that is specifically targeted, what was in Demolition Man Ziana?
<Lazarus> too late
<Mind> well...I must unfortunately go also...so sad...having such a good time...and conversation
<Mind> off to play pool with my fiancee
<Mind> sunday night recreation
<BJKlein> bye Mind thx for great round [BJ and ches]
<Mind> later people
<Lazarus> the idea Caliban is that if we can produce a kind of targeted non nuclear radiation then we could destroy the cancer without killing surrounding tissue or the sideeffects of nuclear radiation
* EmilG reads The Adapted Mind...
<Lazarus> be well mind I have to leave soon too
<BJKlein> Laz how close to use is that now?[ches]
<caliban> Laz- thats very general - I was wondering about you point with reversing iMRI?
<Lazarus> iMRI is teaching how to read the 3 dimensinal informatino and holography is teaching us how to generate a precise 3 dimensinal field as we tune this down to the level of microns we can target specific cells that get tagged with a marker that is absorbed only by the cancer sells
<Lazarus> It also interacts with the energy field to get "excited" like the seed approach and lyses the celss
<Lazarus> My fingers are FIRED FIRED DAMN IT!!!
<Lazarus> I want a new set to go with a new computer!
<BJKlein> :o)
<Lazarus> I think I need to send them back for a remedial spelling course as well
<caliban> the keynard :-) - to reiiterate chestnuts ques: how close to use do you think THAT is?
<Lazarus> I think this avenue is afew years out because the precisin and cost for the initial units will be quite high but the computer ability is already here
<Lazarus> and once the approach is available they will refine it fast
<Lazarus> precision*
* caliban is wary about the whole radiation approach- he puts his hope onto biotech
<Lazarus> The advantage is getting away from nuclear radiation , we can do a lot with microwave tomography
<Lazarus> microwaves are not nearly as destructive in a ancillary fashion
<Lazarus> and the idea is two step, we are using a seed compound to both tag and direct the transmission
<Lazarus> as well as the ability ot precisely direct the field strength
<Lazarus> caliban this is a biotech approach
<Lazarus> what do you mean
<Lazarus> like Mind and I were discussing thereis also the current strategy of blocking the blood supply to the tumor
<Lazarus> no blood cancer dies
<caliban> hm i would opt for purely bio-based methods
<Lazarus> What?
<caliban> like increased antioxixidant protection, immune responses, telomerases, phytochemicals ... the soft stuff
<caliban> or..
<Lazarus> I think preventionis probably best but then we will get back to a long political debate, oh well we basically agree
<BJKlein> well enjoyed it, I guess I should let BJ back in. Buenas noches [chest]
<Lazarus> que vaya bien linda
* caliban would like to be a giant nonterminal cancer with his brain intact :-)
<caliban> bien nuit chestnut!
<BJKlein>
<Lazarus> you just like the idea of wild uncontrolled reproductive behavior
<caliban> no me likes the idea of immortality
<caliban> no hayflick
<caliban> no cries
<Lazarus> Cancer isn' immortal, kill the host the parasite dies
<caliban> ahh semantics again- i promised BJ to write about that when I get the time
<Lazarus> we are keeping the cancer tumors alive because we are feeding them to study how they turn the telomerase function back on
<Lazarus> no food and oxygen and they are quite mortal again
<Lazarus> and please DO write about it
<caliban> no food and everything is quite mortal
<Lazarus> moreso when we talk of air
<Lazarus> air, water, food in that order
<Lazarus> without all three your dead
<Lazarus> no air, a few nminutes, no water, afew days, no food maybe months but dead is dead
<caliban> hm- I was using food in a more global sense -- sustenance
<Lazarus> blood is all three to the cell
<Lazarus> blood is the body' life spport system and lubrication
<Lazarus> and cooling system
<Lazarus> we are a remarkable combustion fuel bioelectric engine
<nrv7> we are machines
<nrv7> yES
<Lazarus> lots of pumps, but no piston, lots of levers, and we oxidize fuels
<caliban> (nrv: have you downgraded for good?)
<Lazarus> Mitochondria RULES, The First great symbiosis
<caliban> aye but they are also quite good with killing you
<Lazarus> without the relationship of mitochondria to other cells in evolution there wouldn't be multicellular life
<Lazarus> The damn litle organelles still have their own genes to show for it
* caliban and his mitochondria must be of
<Lazarus> We are already a complex symbiotic system involving many life forms in coordinated life support, me too, be well caliban
<Lazarus> don't do too many summersaults
<caliban> - I'll get you for that one :-)
<Lazarus> write me
<caliban> best wishes
<Lazarus> the same friend
<Lazarus> I am out of here as well be good all
*** Disconnected
*** Attempting to rejoin...
*** Rejoined channel #immortal
<BJKlein> test
<nrv7> ;D
<nrv7> chestnut?
<BJKlein> tis mua
<BJKlein> bj
<nrv7> where is she
<nrv7> :D
<nrv7> i havent talked to her in a month
<BJKlein> workn
<nrv7> oh
<nrv7> her job must be stressful
<BJKlein> depends yep
<Aaron> mua?
<BJKlein> me
<Aaron> moi
<BJKlein> ehh yah
<Aaron> yeah
<BJKlein> moi gracias
<Aaron> lol
<Aaron> merci
<BJKlein> de nada
<Aaron> wb Gordon
<Gordon> hello again
<Gordon> though I was never here today, so you should just say hi
<Aaron> hi
<Aaron> today is my first time in #immortal
<Gordon> was it a good chat
<Gordon> I had to miss it
<Aaron> I only was here for part of it. BJ might know
<BJKlein> actually turned into a good one..
<BJKlein> starting to formalize the topics..
<BJKlein> Laz was good about keeping us on topic..
<BJKlein> next week we'll discuss how to get proactive about life extension
<Aaron> war!
<Aaron> er.. wait... no
<Gordon> cool
<BJKlein> ehh?
<BJKlein> btw. welcome to immortal Aaron... hope you make it back
<Aaron> I'll probably drop in and out.
<Aaron> do you pretty much run the show in here BJ?
<BJKlein> Michael Anissimov and I and of course Chestnut
<BJKlein> we're the directors of the Institute
<Aaron> Institute?
<Gordon> imminist.org
<BJKlein> yep the Immortality Institute Inc. For Infinite Lifespans
<BJKlein> the server is currently down..sorry
<Aaron> d'oh
<EmilG> Did I mention The Adapted MInd is a masterpiece?
<EmilG> But you all already knew that.
<Aaron> is Immortality Institute Singulatarian?
<BJKlein> we subscribe to the concept..yes
<BJKlein> and Michael Anissimov is our expert on the subject
<Gordon> not to be rude, but you could probably find a more expert expert
<crw> is he around?
<BJKlein> MA had to run this afternoon
<Gordon> then again, maybe there aren't that many people willing to do it
<BJKlein> Yeh, not like there are Singularity experts growing on trees these days
<Gordon> Michael will learn more with time
<Aaron> I'm all for life extention, but once the singularity hits, I don't see it being very relevant... then again, maybe 97% of the population will choose to live on as humans.
<BJKlein> yes.. Aaron, for us.. we use LE as a starting point for many members before opening up to the idea of Singularity and transh
<Aaron> ah, cool
<Gordon> transh is not a good abreviation of transhumanism
<Gordon> it looks too much like trash
<BJKlein> >Huh?
<BJKlein> heh
<BJKlein> >Huh?.
<BJKlein> bot taking over
<Aaron> you have a bot in your pocket?
<BJKlein> lol, I bot myself a bot and it bot me in the ars
<Aaron> :D
<Lazarus> back
<Lazarus> anyone there?
<Gordon> only the ghost of my former self
<Lazarus> At least that means you are never alone
<Lazarus> Since no one is still talking, period, let alone about cancer I will just add this comment for the record
<Lazarus> Tonight we focused more on malignat growth and prevention along the classic view, but we should put more emphasis on preventative avenues like cancer mapping that may go towards better identifying environmental and subgroup causes.
<Lazarus> Also we didn' really address systemic treatment whent ht cancer has gotten into the bone or blood
<Lazarus> I just wanted that on the chat log for future discussion
<SingularityMinion> SingularityMinion is truth
<SingularityMinion> we are the SingularityMinion
<SingularityMinion> join SingularityMinion
<Lazarus> is that alan?
<SingularityMinion> join us as one
* Gordon joins SingularityMinion
<SingularityMinion> no we are the SingularityMinion
<SingularityMinion> we are at one with all the Universe
<SingularityMinion> we are a shared consciousness
<Lazarus> Did you ever notice that the graphic of the brain that BJ has floating around on the pop up page looks a sucking bug?
<SingularityMinion> single brains suck like bugs
<SingularityMinion> lol
<Lazarus> sort of a leggless elephant flying on its trunck sucking up Identities
<SingularityMinion> the SingularityMinion will suck you up too
<SingularityMinion> Join us Lasarus
<SingularityMinion> all will become one SingularityMinion
<SingularityMinion> it is the destiny of all humanity
<Lazarus> is that a pistol yur packin or are you jus galad to see me?
<SingularityMinion> we pack no weapons, only truth
<Lazarus> You and Doc
<SingularityMinion> SingularityMinion is beyond the need for weapons
<SingularityMinion> we are so powerful that any weapon would hinder us
<Lazarus> And beyond old jokes
<SingularityMinion> we can't be hindered
<SingularityMinion> not even by old jokes
<SingularityMinion> nothing can stop us
<SingularityMinion> join us
<SingularityMinion> we are all powerful
<Aaron> anyone in here know C#?
<Lazarus> Singularityminion, and that is the last time I will spell it out you are doing a great job of imitating a 1950' B Picture, like the DAy of the Triffids or something, stereotypical mind sucking zombie argument
<SingularityMinion> C# is inferior
<SingularityMinion> on SingularityMinion is strong
<SingularityMinion> the SingularityMinion uses C#
<Lazarus> Me meither to give a straight answer Aaron, what's up?
<SingularityMinion> we will use all
<SingularityMinion> SingularityMinion must take care of a rogue mind
<Aaron> not much. just hanging out
<Lazarus> I am the rogue Sing and you are a bad imitation but funny
<SingularityMinion> you can join us Laz
<SingularityMinion> you can become one with truth
<Lazarus> If I get absorb then there will be no more rogue and the Sing needs the rogue for contrast
<Aaron> you can remail apart
<Lazarus> The sing needs the rogue to know itself, Relativity Rules
<Aaron> *remain
<SingularityMinion> while you are with us
<Lazarus> I liked re mail
<Aaron> what's that?
<Lazarus> I have always wanted to travel by mailing myself around the world to places
<SingularityMinion> there is no need for singles
<SingularityMinion> single minds are weak
<Lazarus> It wa how we thought in the pre Transporter tech age
<Aaron> ah
<SingularityMinion> there is no contrast, only SingularityMinion and those who have no yet see our truth
<Lazarus> OOOooooOOOOOooooooOOOOOoo
<SingularityMinion> we grow stronger
<SingularityMinion> we will consume all who come before us
<Lazarus> whose we? You got a worm in your pocket?
<SingularityMinion> we are the SingularityMinion
<Lazarus> YOu can' t be single in the colective unless you fancy yourself royalty
<SingularityMinion> we contain the minds of many
<SingularityMinion> . /join us
<Lazarus> only one, one only, one won and now there' none oh one no one can understand
<SingularityMinion> it's easy
<SingularityMinion> so easy you're already part of us
<SingularityMinion> it's just as easy to join us as it is to leave
<Lazarus> You noticed
<SingularityMinion> ....
<SingularityMinion> /join us
<SingularityMinion> we are immortal
<Lazarus> I am merged with the Great Collective and now one wants more work out of me
<Lazarus> or is that One? Or is it that One!
<SingularityMinion> /join us to become complete
<Lazarus> how many more parts do I need?
<SingularityMinion> we are not more parts for you
<SingularityMinion> you are more parts for us
<Lazarus> well if I am incomplete then I must still need some parts
<SingularityMinion> hmmm
<Aaron> i'm getting sleepy.
<Lazarus> <<< Still examining self for parts falling off in flight
<SingularityMinion> we do not get sleepy
<SingularityMinion> we never rest
<Lazarus> wewwewe all the way home who is this we?
<SingularityMinion> if you need parts, we are here for you, but we are not more parts for you
<SingularityMinion> join us, and you will know
<Lazarus> Ve are here for me Me is here for vou and ve are all together
<Aaron> how sveet
<Lazarus> ve is ver and ve are we and vI don' want to be alone so leave some of you for ve to have a compnain to the vou
<SingularityMinion> bye bye Gordon
<Lazarus> companion* I might consider giving my fingers and keyboard to vou
<SingularityMinion> lol
<SingularityMinion> that would be a start
<Lazarus> Has anybody bothered to do a full conjugation of V pronouns?
<Aaron> I don't know
<Lazarus> I was trying to write with them and it got crazy because of the plural singualr switching and the first person case
<Lazarus> Hi Michael
<MichaelA> Hiya
<Aaron> hey Michael
<MichaelA> Hello
<SingularityMinion> Join us MichaelA
<SingularityMinion> we are stronger
* MichaelA blinks
<Lazarus> Micheal how would you express the first person singular of a "V" pronoun?
<SingularityMinion> stronger than...?
<SingularityMinion> we were
<MichaelA> Well
<MichaelA> There is no neutral-pronoun form of "we"
<MichaelA> It's just "we"
<SingularityMinion> wouldn't first person be "I"?
<Lazarus> we is a collective and plural by definition hence not a singularity
<MichaelA> "Singularity" doesn't necessarily connote "singular"
<Lazarus> exactly but I isn' a "V" pronoun, I called it VI in the short story
<SingularityMinion> yes
<MichaelA> "I" is generally still put as "I"
<Lazarus> It is singular with regard to identity
<Aaron> but you don't need a V for first person singular do you?
<Lazarus> But "V" pronouns have
