14 replies to this topic

[randomthoughts]

So far my stack consists of:

Rhodiola
Vit B Complex
DMAE
Piracetam
Oxiracetam
Selepryl

Also taking Wellbutrin, Risperdol, and Mirtazapine

None of these supplements/drugs have helped me... even doses above the the recommended amount for the racetams are not helping.

i was thinking about doing something somewhat extreme and just taking 3 mg of piracetam every hour until i felt something.

also, with selepryl, do you mix it with water? or do u just drop one drop into your mouth?

[deekz]

So far my stack consists of:

Rhodiola
Vit B Complex
DMAE
Piracetam
Oxiracetam
Selepryl

Also taking Wellbutrin, Risperdol, and Mirtazapine

None of these supplements/drugs have helped me... even doses above the the recommended amount for the racetams are not helping.

i was thinking about doing something somewhat extreme and just taking 3 mg of piracetam every hour until i felt something.

also, with selepryl, do you mix it with water? or do u just drop one drop into your mouth?

define "working". Seems like your looking for an acute effect.

[randomthoughts]

i was hoping for something noticeable, but i dont think there is any improvement from how i am with noots and w/o

[Mind]

Person spending lots of money taking noots that don't work.

Thinking about just spending more money on more noots that don't work.

Suggestion: stop taking them.

[randomthoughts]

having just recently purchased the rhodiola and dmae and feeling nothing, i do feel that i might as well stop. its unfortunate however that my brain seems incredibly resistent to the tampering done by outside chemicals.

[Rags847]

Make sure you have the basics down: a good night's sleep, healthy nutrition, emotional well-being. If you are sleep-deprived, etc., and take noots you might not feel much (they have too much to overcome). I notice when I'm on top of everything and then take them, that they push me to high levels of functioning and their effect is felt.
Consider Vinpocetine (vasodialator, Viagra for the brain). I started taking it yesterday and today and noticed it's effect (a brain that is very alive and awake), very much so.
Also, be sure to do some heavy reading or heavy work activity to test out and flex your brain on noots. If one takes noots and sits back and watches a movie, say, one might not notice much.

Edited by Rags847, 25 January 2008 - 12:57 AM.

[mystery]

So far my stack consists of:

Rhodiola
Vit B Complex
DMAE
Piracetam
Oxiracetam
Selepryl

Also taking Wellbutrin, Risperdol, and Mirtazapine

None of these supplements/drugs have helped me... even doses above the the recommended amount for the racetams are not helping.

i was thinking about doing something somewhat extreme and just taking 3 mg of piracetam every hour until i felt something.

I've tried most of those. I've tried a B complex which just makes me anxious and increases muscle tension in my back. I've tried DMAE which just seemed to induce a sad sort of emotional effect. Tried piracetam and it produced muscle tension in back, pain in eyes, and facilitated brain fog and drowsiness. Recently tried oxiracetam and it just makes me tired without the other negative effects of priacetam, which is nice so I can use it as a sleep aid if need be. Haven't tried Rhodiola, but I've got some on the way and I also plan to try deprenyl.

I've tried probably at least 50 other supplements, noots, and drugs, and none of them have "worked" so to speak. I'll probably try 50 more, and along the way I'm learning a lot. Believe me, you've just begun your journey. You have much to learn...

First you should probably focus on the basics as Rags847 mentioned. Sleep, nutrition, exercise, and moral (for lack of a better word) are the best place to start. There are lots of supplements and herbs that can help with sleep, help with long term nutrition (like omega 3), and help give you energy for exercise. Then there are motivational books and other ways to help with your mental well being. Than focus on dropping the pharmaceuticals: Wellbutrin, Risperdol, and Mirtazapine if possible. Finally, you'll need to give the noots a while to work, and focus on one at a time to start with.

Edited by mystery, 25 January 2008 - 06:27 AM.

[edward]

Than focus on dropping the pharmaceuticals: Wellbutrin, Risperdol, and Mirtazapine if possible. Finally, you'll need to give the noots a while to work, and focus on one at a time to start with.

I don't mean to pick on you Mystery because a lot of people seem to do this.

This is a big pet peeve of mine, people without any medical training what so ever telling people on pretty powerful pharmaceuticals: Wellbutrin - Antidepressant, Risperdol - Antipsychotic with other uses as adjunct therapy, Mirtazapine: Antidepressant obviously prescribed by a Psychiatrist to stop taking their meds so that nootropics or some other less mainstream therapy can start working.

This is recipe for disaster. Someone prescribed 2 antidepressants and one antipsychotic should not stop taking their meds in favor of experimentation with self dosing of nootropics. Usually when one is prescribed multiple antidepressants, antipsychotics, neuroleptics etc. there has been some serious crisis that has altered their functioning and often threatened their life or the lives of people around them. Therefore stopping this stuff and self experimenting with other medications is simply nuts.

I could go on but ill leave it at that.

A more appropriate response to this is to suggest to the individual that they read up on the pharmaceuticals they have been prescribed and see what side effects and effects in general they have and how these may be hindering their goals. Then talk with the healthcare provider that prescribed these medications and try to come up with some alternatives or perhaps under medical care begin to reduce the dosages of perhaps one of the medications.

edit: Note, personally I take nootropics and numerous supplements, I also take an antidepressant, now at a very low dose. When I increased my supplement and nootropic intake I was able to reduce the dose of my antidepressant. Which I did with the direction of my doctor. My case was relatively simple, just reduce the dose of an SSRI. The person who started this thread has a much more complex situation, which is all the more reason to do it with the direction of a Psychiatrist, Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner etcetera.

Edited by edward, 26 January 2008 - 05:24 AM.

[mystery]

Sorry if that came out wrong. What I meant was more along the lines of what you said edward. Definitely don't just stop taking your meds. But maybe there is a way you can work with your healthcare provider, and see if they would have some useful advice if you are experiencing negative cognitive effects due to medication.

Ultimately though, I do feel that it is up to you to do research and decide what is best for yourself. I just don't agree that a healthcare provider always has good advice. Does this mean that you shouldn't take their advice? No. Does this mean that you should always take their advice without question? No.

Here's my experience. I went to my PCP about 1 yr 6 mos ago for mild sleep problems, mild anxiety, and mild depression. I was prescribed .5 mg clonazepam, and 10 mg paroxetene. Why? Because that's what a PCP will do if you see them about these problems, it's their job. Is it the best treatment? I don't think so, especially after doing a lot of research. Did I take the advice? No, because it was my judgement that my condition was not serious enough to warent the risks of these powerful and dangerous drugs. If I had chosen to do so, I may be addicted to paxil, and sexually impotent, and had experienced permanent neurological changes due to the paxil. Are these drugs useful treatment options? Yes, but it depends a lot on the severity of the disorder(s).

I recently saw my PCP for blood in bowl movements. I was refered to a colorectal surgeon which inserted a proctoscope up you-know-where. It hurt like hell, but the information gained from that experience was invaluable. The diagnosis was proctitis and I was prescribed mesalazine. Among a long list of possible side effects including uncommonly: exacerbation of the colitis, hair loss, interstitial nephritis, there are rarely: pancreatitis, hepatits, nephrotic syndrome, and a considerable list of blood disorders. In case you are not aware, nearly all those conditions are very serious. My condition was stable. Since than I've been doing more research and taking natural supplements to help (alpha linolenic acid from flax seed and others), hence I did not take the surgeon's advice. I don't believe all of this is worth the risk for a stable condition that involves little more than blood in occasional bowel movements. I'm continuing to do research. Maybe I will see other specialists, have a complete sigmoidoscopy done, and consider the mesalazine if my condition worsens. But for now, I am not willing to take the risk of mesalazine for a stable condition that is not interfering with my life in any way, and is not getting worse. That's a judgement call. If I suffered any of the serious health conditions for life as a result of mesalazine than who's fault is it? You could say its the health care provider's fault for making a bad judgement call. But it'd also be my fault because I could of done research and weighed the risks, and decided not to heed advice that put me in considerable risk. And bottom line, its my own a**. I'll be the one suffering in the end, so I trust myself more than anyone for my own healthcare, except under life threatening emergencies.

EDIT: I'd like to add that I mentioned to my surgeon that these symptoms started after a prolonged period of extreme stress. Did he care, recommend reducing the stress, or provide any advice to do so? No. Since then, I've worked to reduce stress which was most likely the underlying cause. My IBD has been going into remission. Episodes have become more rare, and my colon just feels more like it did before this started. All without the risk of mesalazine. Mesalazine wouldn't of treated the underlying cause---stress. Symptoms would likely have repeared even with treatment if I had not dealt with the stress (as they often do with IBD).

What we now term healthcare practitioners are drug advisors. They more often will forget hearing about your real problems, and just give you the drugs which have been demonstrated to have reasonable efficacy for treatment to get you out of their office quick (so they can treat the next patient). Drugs have serious side effects, and can potentially do more harm than good. Does this mean that this is not always a valid approach? No. Drugs and the science behind them are a very useful tool, but they are not a complete all-inclusive solution.

Edited by mystery, 26 January 2008 - 10:54 AM.

[StrangeAeons]

a word to the wise:
your brain has an inherent balance of dopamine and acetylcholine. Throwing that balance off in favor of the acetylcholine (by reducing dopamine) is what causes Parkinson's symptoms. That's why your risperdal can cause extrapyramidal (read: Parinson's-ish) side effects; it works against dopamine. Taking a cholinergic supplement, assuming it lives up to its claim of increasing acetylcholine in the brain, could exacerbate this risk. If you're taking high doses of the antipsychotic, I strongly recommend cutting out DMAE and any other cholinergic; yes, that probably means dropping the racetams too. I'm currently on Invega (read: fancy risperdal) on a trial basis and have dropped the noots because of this issue. I recommend you follow suit before your face starts twitching. Tardive dyskinesia is no joke.

EDIT: I overlooked something even more important! You're taking selegeline along with a neuroleptic! For the love of all things sane, I hope you realize those two meds more or less cancel each other out (save for the anti-serotonergic actions of risperdal, but then you might as well be on tianeptine). Choose one or the other, but both is counterproductive. I'd go with the risperdal, seeing as your doc actually proscribed it.

Edited by PetaKiaRose, 26 January 2008 - 07:06 PM.

[randomthoughts]

very good advice here... I definately agree that the basics of exercise, sleep and such are so so important to providing the basis for any health regime. Also, I have considered the drugs I'm on and understand the importance of why I'm taking them in the first place, and certainly won't cut them out without good reason.

That said, my original diagnosis for taking them in the first place is bipolar... a diagnosis I sometimes find difficult to agree with given how flat I am mood-wise... and I have also considered what petekiarose said with slightly different logic: I've been thinking about cutting out the risperdol knowing that any mood stabalizers job is to reduce mania and level out mood... it definately crossed my mind that it could be cancelling out a lot of what my noots are trying to do... so I'll definately give some more thought to maybe tapering off of the risperdol over the next couple weeks...

[StrangeAeons]

That said, my original diagnosis for taking them in the first place is bipolar... a diagnosis I sometimes find difficult to agree with given how flat I am mood-wise... and I have also considered what petekiarose said with slightly different logic: I've been thinking about cutting out the risperdol knowing that any mood stabalizers job is to reduce mania and level out mood... it definately crossed my mind that it could be cancelling out a lot of what my noots are trying to do... so I'll definately give some more thought to maybe tapering off of the risperdol over the next couple weeks...

You should know that bipolar disorder can be any number of different things, and typically it involves being more predisposed to depression than mania. Check it out, if you haven't already: http://en.wikipedia....order#Bipolar_I (yes, it's wikipedia, but they more or less copy DSM criteria so it's reliable info). Also keep in mind antipsychotic + mood stabilizer is a very common treatment for bipolar, especially because the antipsychotic is there to keep the mania in check (whereas an antidepressant might exacerbate mania). If you have had manic episodes that have ever constituted a threat to yourself or others, it would be a bad idea to go off the antipsychotics while still on excitatory neurotransmitter agonists. If you want to wean off the meds slowly, I'd recommend: a) keeping a journal to track your emotional baseline. Nothing too fancy or touchy-feely, but just enough to give off the vibe of how you're feeling that day. b) having somebody close to you monitor your mood. Try not to tip them off to what you're doing, just ask them to keep an eye out for you.
That should alert you to any erratic behavior that may start to suface before it gets too bad.

[randomthoughts]

thankfully my bipolar must be mild enough that ive never had any of the dangerous kinds of mania... in fact, they've often been very productive, getting a lot of work/creativity bonuses while they last. I wouldn't mind getting them back. I've started snapping my risperdol pills in half and will work with that for the next couple weeks while maintaining my current stack... nothing else seems interesting right now to try other than possibly switching to new antidepressent types.

[abandoned_acc]

Maybe you should just accept the fact you aren't wired to be clever, or get some coke to fool yourself into that belief you could be.

[wootwoot]

The reason you feel little is because most nootropics are snake oil. They look good on paper but have little to no noticeable effects.