63 replies to this topic

[Eva Victoria]

What you forget is that Ethylhexyl triazone stabilizes both OMC and AVO
Hence this sunscreen is photostabel with a high UVA protection.

Ethylhexyl triazone is one of the best UVB absorbers. It's highly photostable. The cinnamates are not and the combination with avobenzone makes it worse for both. I wouldn't use that sunscreen.

[tao81]

thx eva!
so this is a good photostable cream-Is it neccesary to reapply it every 2h or does the ROS problem not occur with it?
thx

[sdxl]

What you forget is that Ethylhexyl triazone stabilizes both OMC and AVO
Hence this sunscreen is photostabel with a high UVA protection.

Got any info on that? Never saw anything about that in BASF's product info or anywhere else.

[luminous]

I'm lazy and don't want to pore through all the info presented here. Eva or anyone, could you kindly just let me know the best (or least damaging) brand of sunscreen money can buy, and also how often I'll need to apply it? I'm going on a vacation to Mexico next month and really would like to know. TIA.

[Eva Victoria]

All chemical sunscreens have to be reapplied every 2h. They are also being decomposed by sunlight.
Read the attachements for this post

The best sunscreens available today are either the ones that contain Mexotyl SX+XL (owned by L' Oreal group, sold in the EU!) or the ones that contain Tinosorb M+S (Roc, Avene, Nivea, Bioderma; sold in the EU).

My defenetelly favourite ones are:

Bioderma: Photoderm Max SPF 50+ UVA 35
La Roche Posay Antihelios: SPF 50+ UVA 28
Nivea Light Sensation suncreme: SPF 30 UVA 18

All of these have full UVA protection, photostable formulas and excellent light non-greasy consistence!
Remember an SPF/UVA 18 has 94,7% filtering of the rays! 30: 96% and 60 (marked 50+) is 98,36%.

I'm lazy and don't want to pore through all the info presented here. Eva or anyone, could you kindly just let me know the best (or least damaging) brand of sunscreen money can buy, and also how often I'll need to apply it? I'm going on a vacation to Mexico next month and really would like to know. TIA.

[luminous]

All chemical sunscreens have to be reapplied every 2h. They are also being decomposed by sunlight.
Read the attachements for this post

The best sunscreens available today are either the ones that contain Mexotyl SX+XL (owned by L' Oreal group, sold in the EU!) or the ones that contain Tinosorb M+S (Roc, Avene, Nivea, Bioderma; sold in the EU).

My defenetelly favourite ones are:

Bioderma: Photoderm Max SPF 50+ UVA 35
La Roche Posay Antihelios: SPF 50+ UVA 28
Nivea Light Sensation suncreme: SPF 30 UVA 18

All of these have full UVA protection, photostable formulas and excellent light non-greasy consistence!
Remember an SPF/UVA 18 has 94,7% filtering of the rays! 30: 96% and 60 (marked 50+) is 98,36%.

Thanks. I'll look into one of these.

[liorrh]

All chemical sunscreens have to be reapplied every 2h. They are also being decomposed by sunlight.
Read the attachements for this post

The best sunscreens available today are either the ones that contain Mexotyl SX+XL (owned by L' Oreal group, sold in the EU!) or the ones that contain Tinosorb M+S (Roc, Avene, Nivea, Bioderma; sold in the EU).

My defenetelly favourite ones are:

Bioderma: Photoderm Max SPF 50+ UVA 35
La Roche Posay Antihelios: SPF 50+ UVA 28
Nivea Light Sensation suncreme: SPF 30 UVA 18

All of these have full UVA protection, photostable formulas and excellent light non-greasy consistence!
Remember an SPF/UVA 18 has 94,7% filtering of the rays! 30: 96% and 60 (marked 50+) is 98,36%.

I'm lazy and don't want to pore through all the info presented here. Eva or anyone, could you kindly just let me know the best (or least damaging) brand of sunscreen money can buy, and also how often I'll need to apply it? I'm going on a vacation to Mexico next month and really would like to know. TIA.

thank you. anyone knows of European compatibles?

[donjoe]

thank you. anyone knows of European compatibles?

You mean US-available sunscreens that have the same effects as the European ones proposed above?

[Eva Victoria]

If you ment US compatibles: then the answer is THERE ARE NONE!
Thanks to the FDA :(

All chemical sunscreens have to be reapplied every 2h. They are also being decomposed by sunlight.
Read the attachements for this post

The best sunscreens available today are either the ones that contain Mexotyl SX+XL (owned by L' Oreal group, sold in the EU!) or the ones that contain Tinosorb M+S (Roc, Avene, Nivea, Bioderma; sold in the EU).

My defenetelly favourite ones are:

Bioderma: Photoderm Max SPF 50+ UVA 35
La Roche Posay Antihelios: SPF 50+ UVA 28
Nivea Light Sensation suncreme: SPF 30 UVA 18

All of these have full UVA protection, photostable formulas and excellent light non-greasy consistence!
Remember an SPF/UVA 18 has 94,7% filtering of the rays! 30: 96% and 60 (marked 50+) is 98,36%.

I'm lazy and don't want to pore through all the info presented here. Eva or anyone, could you kindly just let me know the best (or least damaging) brand of sunscreen money can buy, and also how often I'll need to apply it? I'm going on a vacation to Mexico next month and really would like to know. TIA.

thank you. anyone knows of European compatibles?

[niner]

If you ment US compatibles: then the answer is THERE ARE NONE!
Thanks to the FDA :(

What about people in the US buying them from a European or Canadian site? Is that possible? I found Photoderm Max on a French site, but it was pretty expensive to ship it to the US, so I didn't get it. Would this have worked, if I tried it?

[Eva Victoria]

Hi Niner!

You can buyu almost anything on Internet including sunscreens from Europe

Bioderm Photoderm Max creme would be a very good sunscreen to use everyday with very high UVA protection (PPD 35) and fullvalue UVA protection which is crucial together with photostability what this sunscreen also has.

It is expensive to ship to the US, but you could find something good from Canada or Mexico (they sell sunscreens with Tinosorb M+S and Mexoryl SX+XL

If you ment US compatibles: then the answer is THERE ARE NONE!
Thanks to the FDA :(

What about people in the US buying them from a European or Canadian site? Is that possible? I found Photoderm Max on a French site, but it was pretty expensive to ship it to the US, so I didn't get it. Would this have worked, if I tried it?

[donjoe]

I was kinda wondering about this myself - whether that FDA interdiction applies (only) to producing the sunscreens in the U.S., to selling them in the U.S., to selling them if you're an american company, to selling them in a store as opposed to shipping them directly at home, or all of the above etc.

[Eva Victoria]

FDA classifies sunscreen agents as OTC DRUGS. They have to comply with the rules that only approved sunscreen agents are allowed to be used in sunscreens SOLD in the USA.

If an American company desides that they'll make "European" sunscreens, they can make it on American soil, but cannot sell it in the USA. (Don't know any brands that do this).

If a European company, like L' Oreal wants to sell their perfect Mexoryl SX+XL containing sunscreens in the USA, they are NOT allowed. Hence they reformulated their sunscreens complying with the FDA and sell "not so good" sunscreens (containing only Mexoryl SX and only in one product: La Roche Posay Antihelios daycreme SPF15; all their other brands sell sunscreens containing: AVO, OMC without much stabilizition :(

The massage is clear: as long as the sunscreen (not the brand) bought in the EU, the filters are good. But remember there are only L' Oreal and brands containing Tinosorb M+S that are good enough when it comes to full UVA protection and photostability!

I was kinda wondering about this myself - whether that FDA interdiction applies (only) to producing the sunscreens in the U.S., to selling them in the U.S., to selling them if you're an american company, to selling them in a store as opposed to shipping them directly at home, or all of the above etc.

[donjoe]

If a European company, like L' Oreal wants to sell their perfect Mexoryl SX+XL containing sunscreens in the USA, they are NOT allowed.

Hmm... but if a buyer sitting comfortably at home in the U.S. places an order and makes a payment on the Internet to a European company, e.g. for a product with Tinosorb, where is the product being sold and which country's laws apply?

---

- After all, Number One, we're only mortal.
- Speak for yourself, sir. I plan to live forever.

[Eva Victoria]

Logically in the US the rules of the FDA should apply. But as long as it is a private purchase, there is no distribution of the European sunscreen in the US, so the FDA allows you to buy these sunscreens for private use.

If a European company, like L' Oreal wants to sell their perfect Mexoryl SX+XL containing sunscreens in the USA, they are NOT allowed.

Hmm... but if a buyer sitting comfortably at home in the U.S. places an order and makes a payment on the Internet to a European company, e.g. for a product with Tinosorb, where is the product being sold and which country's laws apply?


- After all, Number One, we're only mortal.
- Speak for yourself, sir. I plan to live forever.

[johnblaze]

Has anyone found an inexpensive internet storefront shipping Bioderma Photoderm Max, La Roche Posay Antihelios, or Nivea Light Sensation suncreme to US buyers yet? (Canadian site prolly best eh)

[sdxl]

Has anyone found an inexpensive internet storefront shipping Bioderma Photoderm Max, La Roche Posay Antihelios, or Nivea Light Sensation suncreme to US buyers yet? (Canadian site prolly best eh)

There are some online US stores that charge a lot for European sunscreen. Might as well order it from Europe. You can order Bioderma and LRP from French online parapharmacies. Some will ship worldwide. Nivea is a drugstore brand, unlike the other 2. Don't really care about this, because I see it everywhere. You can probably find it on eBay. Just like L’Oréal's drugstore brands. If you want to make sure you are getting this years sunscreen, it should have UVA circled on the label. At least if it complies with the EU guidelines for sunscreens.

[Eva Victoria]

Please read this:

Chemical vs. Physical sunscreens

http://www.imminst.o...mp;#entry232783

[Eva Victoria]

Found one internet site that sells Nivea Light Feeling Sensation sunscreen (SPF20, 30, 50); Garnier sunscreens (SPF20-50+).
They also ship to anywhere in the world.

http://www.chemistdirect.co.uk

Has anyone found an inexpensive internet storefront shipping Bioderma Photoderm Max, La Roche Posay Antihelios, or Nivea Light Sensation suncreme to US buyers yet? (Canadian site prolly best eh)

[mitkat]

Found one internet site that sells Nivea Light Feeling Sensation sunscreen (SPF20, 30, 50); Garnier sunscreens (SPF20-50+).
They also ship to anywhere in the world.

http://www.chemistdirect.co.uk

-

AMERICAS & REST OF THE WORLD
DELIVERY CHARGE £14.99

Oh Noes!!!

Have a peek: http://www.frenchcos...s.com/about.php - Free shipping on orders over $35. Some products are more expensive it seems, meh.

Edited by mitkat, 15 May 2008 - 04:32 AM.

[Eva Victoria]

"When skin is exposed to sunlight, ultraviolet radiation (UV) is absorbed by skin molecules that then can generate harmful compounds, called reactive oxygen species or ROS, which are highly reactive molecules that can cause "oxidative damage." For example, ROS can react with cellular components like cell walls, lipid membranes, mitochondria and DNA, leading to skin damage and increasing the visible signs of aging.

When sunscreen is applied on the skin, however, special molecules -- called UV filters -- contained in the sunscreen, cut down the amount of UV radiation that can penetrate the skin. Over time, though, these filters penetrate into the skin below the surface of the epidermis, the outermost layer of skin, leaving the body vulnerable to UV radiation."

"For now, the best advice is to use sunscreens and re-apply them often -- the Skin Cancer Foundation recommends every two hours, and especially after sweating or swimming, which can wash away sunscreen -- to reduce the amount of UV radiation from getting through to filters that have penetrated the skin," Bardeen said. "This, in turn, would reduce ROS generation."

Sunscreens Can Damage Skin, Researchers Find

http://www.scienceda...60828211528.htm

Edited by Eva Victoria, 23 April 2009 - 09:12 AM.

[immortali457]

Something I was thinking about today was this. Say you work indoors and go to work early in the morning. If your using a C serum and one preferably with ferulic acid, you could opt to maybe skip the sunscreen and apply it say 30 minutes before lunch break. The C serum should take care of the slight uv rays of the fluorecent bulbs. Maybe a moisturizer with a built in sunscreen as well. Of course guys have this much easier since no make-up.
This would allow your sunscreen to work longer during the peak uv rays. Most people do not apply enough sunscreen daily.
Should be using 1/2 teaspoon combined for the face and neck. That is much more than you think. It's hard for me to do much more than 1/4 teaspoon for both.

[kirtap]

My defenetelly favourite ones are:

Bioderma: Photoderm Max SPF 50+ UVA 35
La Roche Posay Antihelios: SPF 50+ UVA 28
Nivea Light Sensation suncreme: SPF 30 UVA 18

I'm lazy and don't want to pore through all the info presented here. Eva or anyone, could you kindly just let me know the best (or least damaging) brand of sunscreen money can buy, and also how often I'll need to apply it? I'm going on a vacation to Mexico next month and really would like to know. TIA.

Which one of those is the most matte & non-whitening?

[Eva Victoria]

My defenetelly favourite ones are:

Bioderma: Photoderm Max SPF 50+ UVA 35
La Roche Posay Antihelios: SPF 50+ UVA 28
Nivea Light Sensation suncreme: SPF 30 UVA 18

I'm lazy and don't want to pore through all the info presented here. Eva or anyone, could you kindly just let me know the best (or least damaging) brand of sunscreen money can buy, and also how often I'll need to apply it? I'm going on a vacation to Mexico next month and really would like to know. TIA.

Which one of those is the most matte & non-whitening?

Nivea Light Sensation suncreme: SPF 30 UVA 18 and Nivea Light Sensation SPF50 UVA 22

[kirtap]

Nivea Light Sensation suncreme: SPF 30 UVA 18 and Nivea Light Sensation SPF50 UVA 22

Okey thanks! I will buy that one then Btw, is it suited for the face aswell, or only the body?

[nancyd]

All chemical sunscreens have to be reapplied every 2h. They are also being decomposed by sunlight.
Read the attachements for this post

The best sunscreens available today are either the ones that contain Mexotyl SX+XL (owned by L' Oreal group, sold in the EU!) or the ones that contain Tinosorb M+S (Roc, Avene, Nivea, Bioderma; sold in the EU).

My defenetelly favourite ones are:

Bioderma: Photoderm Max SPF 50+ UVA 35
La Roche Posay Antihelios: SPF 50+ UVA 28
Nivea Light Sensation suncreme: SPF 30 UVA 18

All of these have full UVA protection, photostable formulas and excellent light non-greasy consistence!
Remember an SPF/UVA 18 has 94,7% filtering of the rays! 30: 96% and 60 (marked 50+) is 98,36%.

I don't see the point in worrying if a chemical sunscreen is photostable if it has to be reapplied every 2 hours to be effective even if it is photostable. Who is going to do that unless he/she is at the beach? It doesn't really fit into a regular lifestyle. This makes me think physical sunscreens are better since they can be applied in the morning and last all day, if I understand correctly.

Edited by nancyd, 26 April 2009 - 11:41 PM.

[immortali457]

All chemical sunscreens have to be reapplied every 2h. They are also being decomposed by sunlight.
Read the attachements for this post

The best sunscreens available today are either the ones that contain Mexotyl SX+XL (owned by L' Oreal group, sold in the EU!) or the ones that contain Tinosorb M+S (Roc, Avene, Nivea, Bioderma; sold in the EU).

My defenetelly favourite ones are:

Bioderma: Photoderm Max SPF 50+ UVA 35
La Roche Posay Antihelios: SPF 50+ UVA 28
Nivea Light Sensation suncreme: SPF 30 UVA 18

All of these have full UVA protection, photostable formulas and excellent light non-greasy consistence!
Remember an SPF/UVA 18 has 94,7% filtering of the rays! 30: 96% and 60 (marked 50+) is 98,36%.

I don't see the point in worrying if a chemical sunscreen is photostable if it has to be reapplied every 2 hours to be effective even if it is photostable. Who is going to do that unless he/she is at the beach? It doesn't really fit into a regular lifestyle. This makes me think physical sunscreens are better since they can be applied in the morning and last all day, if I understand correctly.

How often do I need to re-apply sunscreen?
According to the AAD, "Sunscreens should be re-applied every 2 hours or after swimming or perspiring heavily." According to Dr. Patty Agin, a sunscreen scientist at Coppertone, "The AAD recommendations are related to sunscreen use and re-application in the sun. During sun exposure, it is always wise to re-apply to ensure protection and coverage, especially after swimming, sweating or engaging in vigorous exercise." (emphasis mine) I contacted Dr. Agin because she conducted research that found that "chemical"/organic sunscreens retain their efficacy on human skin for several hours, in some cases up to 8 hours. I'm not aware of any evidence that supports the need for re-application of a photostable sunscreen every 2 hours during "daily use" conditions in humans (i.e. not sweating or swimming or otherwise removing the sunscreen), except possibly in the case of oily skin. In the absence of such evidence, I believe each individual must make her own risk-benefit analysis, based on the available evidence. Please read this post for more information on the substantivity of sunscreens, so that you can determine how often is appropriate for you to re-apply. As an example, I would not expect a sunscreen applied at 7 am to necessarily provide full protection at 2 pm. However, if I were out in the sun and physically active, I would re-apply at least every 2 hours, if not more often.

What is the difference between physical and "chemical" UV filters? Which is better?
"Chemical" UV filters, more appropriately called organic (carbon-containing) filters, work by absorbing UV photons and "converting" them into heat. Physical UV filters, also called inorganic filters (zinc oxide/ZnO and titanium dioxide/TiO2), function by absorbing, scattering, and reflecting UV. While some of the most UVA-protective US sunscreens use physical filters, organic filters such as the Tinosorb and Mexoryl filters can provide superior UVA protection to sunscreens that rely on physical filters alone for UVA protection. More info here. The advantage of physical filters is their low irritancy and high safety profile, though uncoated physical filters, particulary TiO2, may photocatalyze free radical formation.¹⁵ Therefore, it is best to use coated physical filters such as Z-Cote HP1 or manganese-doped TiO2¹⁴ (known as Optisol¹⁶).

For everyday incidental exposure, you do not usually have to reapply every 2 hours. In fact, women who wear makeup would find this an impossible feat.! However, you must understand that your sunscreen WILL become less effective as time goes by., although it is not necessarily as grim as some would like to think. In one study, researchers tested the amount of sunscreen left on subjects' fingers after several hours. One sunscreen had 80% remaining after 4 hours, while the worst-performing sunscreen still had 78% remaining after 5 hours. So, a significant amount of the sunscreens were still there in both cases.

In another study, it was found that a water resistant sunscreen retained its SPF for 6 hours after application to the lower back. The worst case scenario was a non-waterproof sunscreen, which had an original tested SPF of 16.7 +/- 1.2 and, after 8 hours, was found to have an spf of 12.7 +/- 3.1. This is a loss of only SPF 4. So, while there is clearly a loss in sunscreen efficacy after several hous, I personally feel it is safe to say that most of your sunscreen will still be on your face for several hours after you apply it. But again, this is another reason why it is important to choose the highest possible protection to begin with.

If you wear make-up, here's something to think about.
Do NOT apply makeup that contains physical sunscreen (TIO2 or ZIO2) as an active ingredient as these will inactive the Avobenzone in your European sunscreen.

[niner]

I don't see the point in worrying if a chemical sunscreen is photostable if it has to be reapplied every 2 hours to be effective even if it is photostable. Who is going to do that unless he/she is at the beach? It doesn't really fit into a regular lifestyle. This makes me think physical sunscreens are better since they can be applied in the morning and last all day, if I understand correctly.

How often do I need to re-apply sunscreen?
According to the AAD, "Sunscreens should be re-applied every 2 hours or after swimming or perspiring heavily." According to Dr. Patty Agin, a sunscreen scientist at Coppertone, "The AAD recommendations are related to sunscreen use and re-application in the sun. During sun exposure, it is always wise to re-apply to ensure protection and coverage, especially after swimming, sweating or engaging in vigorous exercise." (emphasis mine) I contacted Dr. Agin because she conducted research that found that "chemical"/organic sunscreens retain their efficacy on human skin for several hours, in some cases up to 8 hours. I'm not aware of any evidence that supports the need for re-application of a photostable sunscreen every 2 hours during "daily use" conditions in humans (i.e. not sweating or swimming or otherwise removing the sunscreen), except possibly in the case of oily skin. In the absence of such evidence, I believe each individual must make her own risk-benefit analysis, based on the available evidence. Please read this post for more information on the substantivity of sunscreens, so that you can determine how often is appropriate for you to re-apply. As an example, I would not expect a sunscreen applied at 7 am to necessarily provide full protection at 2 pm. However, if I were out in the sun and physically active, I would re-apply at least every 2 hours, if not more often.

For everyday incidental exposure, you do not usually have to reapply every 2 hours. In fact, women who wear makeup would find this an impossible feat.! However, you must understand that your sunscreen WILL become less effective as time goes by., although it is not necessarily as grim as some would like to think. In one study, researchers tested the amount of sunscreen left on subjects' fingers after several hours. One sunscreen had 80% remaining after 4 hours, while the worst-performing sunscreen still had 78% remaining after 5 hours. So, a significant amount of the sunscreens were still there in both cases.

In another study, it was found that a water resistant sunscreen retained its SPF for 6 hours after application to the lower back. The worst case scenario was a non-waterproof sunscreen, which had an original tested SPF of 16.7 +/- 1.2 and, after 8 hours, was found to have an spf of 12.7 +/- 3.1. This is a loss of only SPF 4. So, while there is clearly a loss in sunscreen efficacy after several hous, I personally feel it is safe to say that most of your sunscreen will still be on your face for several hours after you apply it. But again, this is another reason why it is important to choose the highest possible protection to begin with.

Thanks for looking into this, immortali457. The party line from the sunscreen manufacturers is to reapply every 2 hrs, but they are in the business of selling us sunscreen. Reapplication every 2 hrs is rather inconsistent with living a normal life, as has been mentioned. It sounds like what you have found is that a decent sunscreen will maintain a substantial fraction of its SPF for a lot more than 2 hours. All of our concern seems to boil down to the following paper by Hanson et al., which found that common chemical UV filters will result in more ROS than with no sunscreen at all after as little as one hour. My hope is that good sunscreen formulations don't behave in the way that Hanson describes, either because they maintain their UV screening ability longer than the filters he used or because they don't have the same behavior after diffusing into the nucleated epidermis. What's your opinion on the ramification of Hanson's work for us daily sunscreen users who have a hard time reapplying every two hours?

http://pmid.us/17015167[/url] "]Free Radic Biol Med. 2006 Oct 15;41(8):1205-12. Epub 2006 Jul 6.
Sunscreen enhancement of UV-induced reactive oxygen species in the skin.
Hanson KM, Gratton E, Bardeen CJ.

Department of Chemistry, University of California at Riverside, Riverside, CA 92506, USA. Kerry.hanson@ucr.edu

The number of UV-induced (20 mJ cm(-2)) reactive oxygen species (ROS) generated in nucleated epidermis is dependent upon the length of time the UV filter octocrylene, octylmethoxycinnamate, or benzophenone-3 remains on the skin surface. Two-photon fluorescence images acquired immediately after application of each formulation (2 mg cm(-2)) to the skin surface show that the number of ROS produced is dramatically reduced relative to the skin-UV filter control. After each UV filter remains on the skin surface for t=20 min, the number of ROS generated increases, although it remains below the number generated in the control. By t=60 min, the filters generate ROS above the control. The data show that when all three of the UV filters penetrate into the nucleated layers, the level of ROS increases above that produced naturally by epidermal chromophores under UV illumination.

PMID: 17015167

[immortali457]

More evidence as to why the European sunscreens are best. I believe Fredrik has also posted in the past about proper sunscreens maintaining around 80% of their strength after 5 hours. I'm gonna start using one with a PPD of 35

[kirtap]

Nivea Light Sensation suncreme: SPF 30 UVA 18

I checked the stores but could only find SPF 20 & below versions of light sensation but there was however Nivea Sun Moisturising Sun Lotion with SPF 40 there aswell, do you know if it is the same? (i'm from Sweden so my thought is perhaps its rebranded in the swedisgh/nordic market?).

EDIT: Checked niveas homepage and it seems to be two different products.. oh well..

Edited by kirtap, 27 April 2009 - 07:26 PM.