18 replies to this topic

[woly]

Ive been thinking lately about moving away from an all in one multivitamin to seperate vitamins/complexes. I want to do this because I feel I have more control over what I take and because it is a little cheaper. I also have worries about how all these different nutrients react in the capsule/gut.

Age: 22
The supplements i want to buy are:

Vitamins
Jarrows Carotenall - 1 a day
Jarrows FamiliE - 1 a day
Country life's CoEnzyme B complex - 1 a day
Twinlabs D3+K2 Dots - 1 a day
Myopure 30 grams Whey protein - 1 a day
Blackmores 500mg VitC sustained release - 1 a day in the morning

Minerals
Now foods Multimineral - 1-2 a day at night Maybe Jarrows Mineral balance?
Now foods 200mg Magnesium Citrate - 2 a day at night

Polyphenols/Misc
Healthy Origins Teavigo (200mg Green tea 90% EGCG) - 1 a day
Now Foods grape seed (125mg Grape seed extract 90%) - 1-2 a day
Jarrows Taruine 1000mg - around the times when i go drinking
Dr's Best 150mg Benfotiamine - before high glucose meals/drinking, i also cycle it on and off.
Jarrows Milk thistle - 2-3 caps a day
Natures way liquid Fish oil - ~800/500 EPA/DHA a day


I realise this is pretty bare bones compared to alot of other regimens on this board but im fairly low on cash and this seems to be the best value for money that I can see. However, I am very much open to sugestions.

One question is that between the FamiliE and the CarotenALL i have 20mg of Lutein a day just from supplements, is this too much?

Edited by woly, 19 February 2008 - 09:56 AM.

[health_nutty]

Looks solid. I like how you put together your own multi: Mixed cartenoids, mixed tocopherols and tocotrenols, very nice b vitamin with no niacinamide. Extra D extra C. I would try to find a better multimineral though: Now foods has 1g of calcium and contains iron. The Jarrow one looks better, but has 400mg of magnesium oxide.

[spaceistheplace]

The Jarrow one looks better, but has 400mg of magnesium oxide.

It's strange, especially for Jarrow. I e-mailed them concerning this, and they don't seem to know why they include it either.

[krillin]

With a good diet, the CarotenAll is superfluous. Carotenes are easy to get, and a half cup of pasta sauce covers you for the tomato nutrients. I don't know if 20 mg lutein is harmful, but it's definitely uncharted territory. Based on the AREDS results, AREDS 2 is testing 10 mg lutein supplements. The astaxanthin is probably too low to make a difference.

I'd only selectively supplement minerals. Extra calcium, iron, copper, and manganese aren't needed.

[health_nutty]

With a good diet, the CarotenAll is superfluous. Carotenes are easy to get, and a half cup of pasta sauce covers you for the tomato nutrients. I don't know if 20 mg lutein is harmful, but it's definitely uncharted territory. Based on the AREDS results, AREDS 2 is testing 10 mg lutein supplements. The astaxanthin is probably too low to make a difference.

I'd only selectively supplement minerals. Extra calcium, iron, copper, and manganese aren't needed.

This has really got me thinking: What do I really need to take to supplement my diet? When my ortho-core runs out I'm just going to order:

Country life's CoEnzyme B complex
BAC's mixed tocopherols and tocotrienols

I'm already taking C, D, Zinc, and lecithin.
I'm getting plenty of cartenoids from the tons of veggies I eat daily (plus 1-2 spicy v8's) and I'm already taking astaxanthin.
I'm getting a plenty of K1 and magnesium from the tons of greens I'm eating daily. Mk4 and K2 are more absorbable, but more K1 should do the trick.
I should be getting plenty of minerals from my balanced diet.
I'm getting sulforaphane from kale and broccolli
I'm already taking some of the other goodies such as pomegranate and green tea extract.

What I would be missing:
1) Better form of K
2) PQQ
3) Chlorophyllin.
4) Small dosage of CoQ10

Hmmm?

Edited by health_nutty, 19 February 2008 - 09:47 PM.

[krillin]

What I would be missing:
1) Better form of K
2) PQQ
3) Chlorophyllin.
4) Small dosage of CoQ10

Hmmm?

Some selenium (600-800 mcg/week) unless you eat brazil nuts. I figure that 175 ng/ml is the highest I'd want my selenium to go. (200 mcg/day raised it by 70 ng/ml in the Clark study, and 200 mcg/day worked best for those with baseline selenium <105.2 ng/ml.) LEF has a test for it, so I'm checking it during their spring blood test sale to see if my cunning plan is working.

[woly]

it kind of annoys me that Jarrow put Lutein and Zeaxanthin in their vitamin E complex. I think I may use their FamiliE formula everyday and CarotenALL just when my diet slips.

I think i might use the Jarrow Mineral balance too instead of Now foods formula. The formula is designed for up to 6 capsules so i can take anything up to that depending on my diet on that day. However, the full dose has 200mcg of selenium so i doubt ill be going past 1-2 capsules a day anyways. This change also stops me from needing to buy Twinlabs D3+K2 dots as Jarrows contains sufficient K1+K2 and I already have plenty of Healthy origins 2400IU bottles.

[niner]

I used the Twinlabs D3+K2 Dots for a little while. They taste good... They actually suggest you use them sublingually, which might help absorption. I didn't even read the fine print, and was just swallowing them till they were almost gone. I have finally come around to the argument that D3 needs to be in an oil based formulation in order for it to be adequately absorbed, based on reports from William Davis, the "track your plaque" guy. He's done a lot of blood tests for D and found that the powder formulations just don't get your levels up. On this basis, I'd use an oil based formulation, such as the one from NOW. I have 3 bottles on the way from iherb, so I can pass them out as party favors to my friends.

[wayside]

He's done a lot of blood tests for D and found that the powder formulations just don't get your levels up.

My doctor had me on 8000 IU/day for a while until my levels got to where he wanted them.

I used the LEF 5000 IU caps (http://www.lef.org/n.../item00713.html) for the bulk of it. It seemed to work for me.

[woly]

looking around i found LEF's Gamma E Tocopherol/Tocotrienols probably the best vitamin e formula I could find. Does anyone know of some cheap places to get it?

Supplement FactsServing Size 1 softgel
Servings Per Container 60
Amount Per Serving
Vitamin E (as D-alpha tocopherol) 46.4 IU
Gamma E Mixed Tocopherols 325 mg
Typical Distribution:
Gamma tocopherol 196.5-222.7 mg
Delta tocopherol 81.9-114.6 mg
Alpha tocopherol 16.4-32.7 mg
Beta tocopherol 0-6.6 mg
Tocomin® Full-Spectrum Natural Tocotrienol Complex 145 mg
Typical Distribution:
Gamma tocotrienol 29.1-35 mg
Delta tocotrienol 8-10.2 mg
Alpha tocotrienol 16-20.4 mg
Beta tocotrienol 2.2 mg
Alpha tocopherol 14.6-20.4 mg

[health_nutty]

I wouldn't sweat the lutein content, a cup of cooked kale has 33mg.

[edward]

With a good diet, the CarotenAll is superfluous. Carotenes are easy to get, and a half cup of pasta sauce covers you for the tomato nutrients. I don't know if 20 mg lutein is harmful, but it's definitely uncharted territory. Based on the AREDS results, AREDS 2 is testing 10 mg lutein supplements. The astaxanthin is probably too low to make a difference.

I'd only selectively supplement minerals. Extra calcium, iron, copper, and manganese aren't needed.

This has really got me thinking: What do I really need to take to supplement my diet? When my ortho-core runs out I'm just going to order:

Country life's CoEnzyme B complex
BAC's mixed tocopherols and tocotrienols

I'm already taking C, D, Zinc, and lecithin.
I'm getting plenty of cartenoids from the tons of veggies I eat daily (plus 1-2 spicy v8's) and I'm already taking astaxanthin.
I'm getting a plenty of K1 and magnesium from the tons of greens I'm eating daily. Mk4 and K2 are more absorbable, but more K1 should do the trick.
I should be getting plenty of minerals from my balanced diet.
I'm getting sulforaphane from kale and broccolli
I'm already taking some of the other goodies such as pomegranate and green tea extract.

What I would be missing:
1) Better form of K
2) PQQ
3) Chlorophyllin.
4) Small dosage of CoQ10

Hmmm?

I started thinking the same thing after you mentioned Woly putting together his own Mulit with just a few products (much more cost effectively and with better ingredients) I actually might do this once my Perfect Blend runs out. With me to there are many overlaps between diet, additional supplementation and what is in my multi, so much that if I just fill in the gaps I can probably chuck the multi, save money and get more of and a better quality of what I am missing. I might even go back and make a customcapsule multi gap filler which would probably be even cheaper, though sadly some of the forms of some vitamins and minerals at customcapsule still aren't the forms I would want, though they do have a lot.

Have you used Cron-O-Meter? It really helps with finding out what you are actually getting basic micronutrient wise from your diet. http://spaz.ca/cronometer/

[edward]

looking around i found LEF's Gamma E Tocopherol/Tocotrienols probably the best vitamin e formula I could find. Does anyone know of some cheap places to get it?

Supplement FactsServing Size 1 softgel
Servings Per Container 60
Amount Per Serving
Vitamin E (as D-alpha tocopherol) 46.4 IU
Gamma E Mixed Tocopherols 325 mg
Typical Distribution:
Gamma tocopherol 196.5-222.7 mg
Delta tocopherol 81.9-114.6 mg
Alpha tocopherol 16.4-32.7 mg
Beta tocopherol 0-6.6 mg
Tocomin® Full-Spectrum Natural Tocotrienol Complex 145 mg
Typical Distribution:
Gamma tocotrienol 29.1-35 mg
Delta tocotrienol 8-10.2 mg
Alpha tocotrienol 16-20.4 mg
Beta tocotrienol 2.2 mg
Alpha tocopherol 14.6-20.4 mg

Couldn't find the LEF one cheap at any sites I searched but I did find this one from Swanson which is about half the price and is pretty comparable. http://tinyurl.com/yohlbh

[krillin]

I wouldn't sweat the lutein content, a cup of cooked kale has 33mg.

I wasn't expecting it to be that high, since most papers have the high consumers still in single digits. This one's top quintile only got 1.4 mg!

I also wasn't expecting peas to have over twice as much as corn. http://www.luteininfo.com/whereraw

I guess we only have to worry about a theoretical impairment of absorption of other carotenoids by artificially spiking lutein intake too high. Beta carotene and lycopene do it.

Br J Nutr. 2007 Mar;97(3):440-6.
Differential effect of dietary antioxidant classes (carotenoids, polyphenols, vitamins C and E) on lutein absorption.
Reboul E, Thap S, Tourniaire F, André M, Juhel C, Morange S, Amiot MJ, Lairon D, Borel P.
INSERM, U476, Marseille, France.

Lutein is assumed to protect the human retina from blue light and oxidative stress and diminish the incidence of age-related macular degeneration. This antioxidant is commonly ingested with other dietary antioxidants. The aim of the present study was to assess whether the main dietary antioxidants, i.e. carotenoids, polyphenols and vitamins C and E, affect lutein absorption. We measured the effect of adding a mixture of antioxidants (500 mg vitamin C, 67 mg (100 IU) vitamin E and 1 g polyphenols) to a lutein-containing meal (18 mg) on the postprandial lutein response in the chylomicron-rich fraction in eight healthy men. Lutein response was weakest (-23 %; P=0 x 07) after ingestion of the meal containing antioxidants (21 x 9 (sem 4 x 6) v. 28 x 4 (sem 7 x 2) nmol x h/l). To assess the effect of each class of antioxidants and potential interactions, we subsequently evaluated the effect of various combinations of antioxidants on lutein uptake by human intestinal Caco-2 TC-7 cells. A full factorial design showed that both a mixture of polyphenols (gallic acid, caffeic acid, (+)-catechin and naringenin) and a mixture of carotenoids (lycopene plus beta-carotene) significantly (P<0 x 05) impaired lutein uptake by (-10 to-30 %), while vitamins C and E had no significant effect. Subsequent experiments showed that the aglycone flavanone naringenin was the only polyphenol responsible for the effect of the polyphenol mixture, and that the carotenoid effect was not carotenoid species-dependent. Taken together, the present results suggest that lutein absorption is not markedly affected by physiological concentrations of vitamins C and E but can be impaired by carotenoids and naringenin

PMID: 17313704

[woly]

hmm not sure where my post went:S

what i meant to say was: maybe if I am worried about getting to much lutein from these supplements, a good idea would be to eat a carrot with the vitamin E formula so that the carotetnoids from the carrot can compete with the lutein?

also from the luteininfo.com website, the difference cooking has on lutein content is pretty profound. raw spinach has 3.2mg/1cup while cooked spinach has around 20mg/1cup!

[health_nutty]

also from the luteininfo.com website, the difference cooking has on lutein content is pretty profound. raw spinach has 3.2mg/1cup while cooked spinach has around 20mg/1cup!

That is because it takes a lot more than 1 cup of raw spinach to make 1 cup of cooked spinach (more like 6 cups of raw).

[krillin]

what i meant to say was: maybe if I am worried about getting to much lutein from these supplements, a good idea would be to eat a carrot with the vitamin E formula so that the carotetnoids from the carrot can compete with the lutein?

Probably be best to eat the lutein and carrot separately, since the most likely hazard would be impaired absorption of the carrot's carrotenoids, not excessive lutein in the system.

There may be a flaw in the B-complex. It has enough folic acid to overwhelm the body's ability to reduce it. This may be bad, and can avoided by taking folinic acid instead.

http://jn.nutrition..../full/136/1/189

Folic acid (FA) supplements and food fortification are used to prevent neural tube defects and to lower plasma homocysteine. Through exposure to food fortification and vitamin supplement use, large populations in the United States and elsewhere have an unprecedented high FA intake. We evaluated dietary and supplemental intakes of folate and FA in relation to an index of immune function, natural killer cell (NK) cytotoxicity, among 105 healthy, postmenopausal women. Among women with a diet low in folate (<233 µg/d), those who used FA-containing supplements had significantly greater NK cytotoxicity (P = 0.01). However, those who consumed a folate-rich diet and in addition used FA supplements > 400 µg/d had reduced NK cytotoxicity compared with those consuming a low-folate diet and no supplements (P = 0.02). Prompted by this observation, we assessed the presence of unmetabolized FA in plasma as a biochemical marker of excess FA. Unmetabolized folic acid was detected in 78% of plasma samples from fasting participants. We found an inverse relation between the presence of unmetabolized FA in plasma and NK cytotoxicity. NK cytotoxicity was ~23% lower among women with detectable folic acid (P = 0.04). This inverse relation was stronger among women ≥ 60 y old and more pronounced with increasing unmetabolized FA concentrations (P-trend = 0.002). Because of the increased intake of FA in many countries, our findings highlight the need for further studies on the effect of long-term high FA intake on immune function and health.

Edited by krillin, 23 February 2008 - 10:32 PM.

[woly]

what i meant to say was: maybe if I am worried about getting to much lutein from these supplements, a good idea would be to eat a carrot with the vitamin E formula so that the carotetnoids from the carrot can compete with the lutein?

Probably be best to eat the lutein and carrot separately, since the most likely hazard would be impaired absorption of the carrot's carrotenoids, not excessive lutein in the system.

There may be a flaw in the B-complex. It has enough folic acid to overwhelm the body's ability to reduce it. This may be bad, and can avoided by taking folinic acid instead.

http://jn.nutrition..../full/136/1/189

Folic acid (FA) supplements and food fortification are used to prevent neural tube defects and to lower plasma homocysteine. Through exposure to food fortification and vitamin supplement use, large populations in the United States and elsewhere have an unprecedented high FA intake. We evaluated dietary and supplemental intakes of folate and FA in relation to an index of immune function, natural killer cell (NK) cytotoxicity, among 105 healthy, postmenopausal women. Among women with a diet low in folate (<233 µg/d), those who used FA-containing supplements had significantly greater NK cytotoxicity (P = 0.01). However, those who consumed a folate-rich diet and in addition used FA supplements > 400 µg/d had reduced NK cytotoxicity compared with those consuming a low-folate diet and no supplements (P = 0.02). Prompted by this observation, we assessed the presence of unmetabolized FA in plasma as a biochemical marker of excess FA. Unmetabolized folic acid was detected in 78% of plasma samples from fasting participants. We found an inverse relation between the presence of unmetabolized FA in plasma and NK cytotoxicity. NK cytotoxicity was ~23% lower among women with detectable folic acid (P = 0.04). This inverse relation was stronger among women ≥ 60 y old and more pronounced with increasing unmetabolized FA concentrations (P-trend = 0.002). Because of the increased intake of FA in many countries, our findings highlight the need for further studies on the effect of long-term high FA intake on immune function and health.

well I am only planning on taking one capsule of the b vit formula which gives me 400mcg of folic acid so I guess its not as bad as the full 800mcg. My blood results showed a slightly elevated level of homocysteine and a lower end folate level so I think the extra folic acid is still probably worth it. Maybe I could supplement with lactoferrin to offset the decrease in NK cytotoxicity?

Natural killer (NK) and lymphokine-activated killer (LAK) cell cytotoxic functions can be strongly augmented by the iron-carrier protein lactoferrin (LF). LF significantly enhances NK and LAK activities when added at the beginning of NK or LAK cytotoxicity assays. LF is effective in augmenting cytotoxic activities at concentrations as low as 0.75 microgram/ml, and higher concentrations of LF induce greater augmentation of NK and LAK. Iron does not appear to be essential for LF to increase NK and LAK, as depleting iron from LF with the chelator deferoxamine does not affect the capacity of LF to increase cytotoxicity. LF is known to have RNase enzymatic activity, and LF enhancement of NK and LAK can be blocked by RNA. However, LFs from two different sources with over 100-fold difference in RNase activity are equally effective in enhancing NK and LAK. Furthermore, purified non-LF RNase does not modulate NK or LAK activity and DNA is as effective as RNA in blocking LF augmentation of NK or LAK cytotoxicity. Therefore, the RNase activity is unlikely to be responsible for LF enhancement of the cytotoxicities. Newborn infants are known to have low NK activity and NK and LAK cells have been implicated in host defense against microbial infections. Thus, maternal milk-derived LF may have a role in boosting antimicrobial immunity in the early stages of life. In adults, LF released from neutrophils may enhance NK and LAK functions in the inflammatory process induced by microbial infections.

http://www.jleukbio....stract/51/4/343

[woly]

so I ordered my supplements yesterday and this is what I came out with:

Jarrows FamiliE - 1 a day
Country life's CoEnzyme B complex - 1 a day
Healthy origins 2400 D3 - 1 every few days
Myopure 30 grams Whey protein - 1 a day
Blackmores 500mg VitC sustained release - 1 a day in the morning
Now foods 200mg Magnesium Citrate - 2 a day at night
Jarrows Zinc balance - 1 a day at night

Healthy Origins Teavigo (200mg Green tea 90% EGCG) - 1 a day
Now Foods grape seed (125mg Grape seed extract 90%) - 1-2 a day
Jarrows Taruine 1000mg - around the times when I go drinking - i probably wont restock this
Dr's Best 150mg Benfotiamine - before high glucose meals/drinking, i also cycle it on and off.
Jarrows Milk thistle - 2-3 caps a day
Natures way liquid Fish oil - ~800/500 EPA/DHA a day
Jarrows 250mg Lactoferrin - 1 a day

I decided to drop the multimineral because as krillin suggested, there are plenty of minerals in my diet already and I couldnt really find one that was balanced to suit my diet.
I also dropped the Jarrows CarotenALL because (again krillin pointed out) 1 carrot and a spoon of tomato paste pretty much covers that
I also added lactoferrin. it looks like a very interesting immune booster so i thought id give it a shot.