17 replies to this topic

[Bruce Klein]

Chat Topic: Charles Platt - Future Goals & Problems with Cryonics
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Chat Time: SAT Nov 29 @ 8pm Eastern


Charles Platt

Author of many popular science fiction novels, co-founder of CryoCare and former director of suspension services for Alcor Foundation, Charles Platt joins ImmInst to discuss the future of cryonics.

Two years ago, Platt had the dubious but unique distinction of being told by the only two active cryonics organizations that he was unwelcome as a member of either of them. One of the people who delivered this news was Linda Chamberlain. A year later, Platt found himself doing her former job. Today he is
largely disassociated from the field, again, and readers of the online mail list, CryoNet, have asked why there's such a high turnover of cryonics personnel. "What's going on here?"

As former director of suspension services for Alcor Foundation, where he introduced many enhancements to prepare for the growth experienced in 2002, Charles Platt says in his own words:

I'm always interested in the future, and I think cryonics runs a real risk of turning out to be a pyramid scheme if today's organizations are unable to cope with the future flood of cryopatients. Alcor has managed to preserve fewer than 60 people, with a huge amount of effort spread over 30 years, and now has more than 600 members, all of whom I do expect to die eventually (you may disagree about some of the younger ones!).

[cryofan]

It looks from the latest run of news media articles that some of the Phoenix reporters seem to be gently egging on politicians and bureaucrats to shut down Alcor, as has happened to CI.

Charles, do you have any thoughts on what the end game of the Larry Johnson affair will be?

[Bruce Klein]

Recent CryoNet reply from Charles.

Message #22901
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 12:50:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Platt
Subject: Ponzi game

Randy Wicker wrote:

> I am not being cynical accusatory nor negative here.
> However, despite the idealistic good intentions of those
> involved, it seems to me that all cryonics organizations
> are essentially what are sometimes described as Ponzi games
> in financial circles.

I would not classify cryonics as a Ponzi scheme, but as Mr.
Wicker says, both of the active full-service organizations
have made a pledge which would be unthinkable in comparable
businesses such as health care.

The cryonics organizations have pledged that the minimum fee
for your cryopreservation will remain fixed for the
indefinite future, regardless of inflation and other factors,
even if you live for another 50 years before you need to be
cryopreserved. This policy would make sense if members were
required to pay their cryopreservation fee in advance, at the
time they join. The organization could then earn interest
from the deposited fee, to keep pace with rising service
costs. However, virtually no one pays in advance in this way.

The issue has been raised and discussed from time to time,
but there are other financial issues which worry me even
more. I am not familiar with CI figures, so I'll use Alcor
figures in the following assessment.

Alcor has almost 60 cryopatients and more than 600 members.
The organization acquired the cryopatients over a period of
more than 30 years. Even at the very modest average rate of
fewer than 2 cases per year, maintaining standby, transport,
and perfusion service has been a massive task requiring a lot
of time, equipment, and labor. Many volunteers and paid staff
have burned out along the way.

If you consider all the costs associated with handling cases,
I feel that the payments received from patients are grossly
inadequate. Even when we add Alcor's current membership fees
of almost $400 per person per year (lower fees are collected
from additional family members and students), the
organization still requires donations or bequests to close
its financial gap, just to deal with the current case load.

In the future, the case load can only increase (assuming
there is no sudden breakthrough in longevity treatments that
greatly extend the life expectancy of members). The current
number of Alcor members is more than 10 times the number of
patients who received treatment during the past three
decades, and more members are joining all the time. Also, as
I pointed out in an article in Cryonics magazine, Alcor now
has a higher proportion of members who are aged over 50 than
ever before.

>From this perspective, the membership of a cryonics

organization represents a huge future liability which cannot
be met with current available human and financial resources.

The Cryonics Institute incurs less of a liability because it
does not usually perform standbys and relies primarily on its
network of morticians to provide initial care. Still, CI
patients do receive (or have received) some treatment at the
organization, and of course they have to be maintained in
liquid nitrogen. I am told that CI sets aside a smaller
amount for maintenance of patients, and has fewer paid staff;
but like Alcor, it has depended on bequests and/or donations.

This does not constitute a Ponzi scheme, because there is no
intention to defraud anyone. Also I do believe that the
organizations will manage to respond somehow to the future
caseload, one way or another. But I'm not sure how this will
be paid for under current policies, and I believe the
commitment to guarantee a fixed minimum cryopreservation fee
may have to be revised for new members at some time in the
future.

[Lazarus Long]

After repeated attempts on my part to get this individual to request information from what I considered to be more well informed members of our group and his consistent desire to interview me I consented and added the comment at the beginning.

In order to be consistent with my own advice, as the interview addressed small aspects of this scheduled chat and since I may not be present for that chat I thought to include it here:

Lazarus Long a.k.a. ‘kxsills’

****************************************************************

kxsills: You should consider attending this chat and recording some of the text.

http://imminst.org/f...st=0#entry15518

NOV 23 - Future Goals & Problems with Cryonics
Author of many popular science fiction novels, co-founder of CryoCare and former director of suspension services for Alcor Foundation, Charles Platt joins ImmInst to discuss the future of cryonics.
bloodykage: are you there
bloodykage: ?
kxsills: yes
bloodykage: do you want to start the interview now
bloodykage: or at 11
kxsills: Now would be better, I even have coffee
bloodykage: lol ok one second
kxsills: that's what I was getting when you rang
bloodykage: ok
bloodykage: do you know a lot about cryonics
bloodykage: ?
kxsills: BTW, did you get the notes and threads on the site that are about cryo?

I do not consider myself expert on the subject, I am informed, concerned and I have ideas and opinions but I am not involved in it directly nor do I feel a very deep student of the field.

bloodykage: ok
bloodykage: how did you learn of cryonics
bloodykage: no I didn’t get the notes on the site

kxsills: I have been aware of cryogenic storage as an option for decades since it was merely theoretical.
Please refer to the sites extensive threads on the subject as well as numerous members better informed than I
kxsills: I have opinions but that is all. I learned of it actually as a child doing experiments on hypothermia and hibernation with my father as he was doing research into tissue preservation


bloodykage: Are you signed up to be cryogenically(sorry cant spell it) frozen after death
kxsills: no I am not

bloodykage: wow that’s pretty cool
bloodykage: when did you learn of it around what time period
kxsills: I have been looking at this issue independently for decades, starting in the mid 60's

bloodykage: Do you believe that cryonics will work?
kxsills: "belief" is the operative word, this should not be a question of belief but supportable fact only. I do not know it will work, belief is irrelevant
kxsills: I want data
kxsills: I want procedures for revival better addressed not hope for a future that we are not responsible for directly
kxsills: If this is a question of "faith" then I am agnostic
kxsills: If this is a question of science then I am a supportive skeptic

bloodykage: What technology do you think must be used to make cryonics work?
kxsills: This is the multimillion dollar question
kxsills: Is it just about going to zero or will higher less destructive temperatures do?

Is it about freezing before dead or does being brain dead first but still not decayed offer sufficient reason to suppose the continuity of consciousness can be preserved?

I don't have answers but I can share my opinion further but the answer is long and involved

bloodykage: i would like to hear your opinion
kxsills: I do think vitrification, the use of cryoprotecants in the tissue is a very good step in the right direction. It was my father’s work and we could preserve DNA and tissue at room temperature for decades without decay.

bloodykage: What exactly did you father do?
kxsills: We simply substituted what they call a "protectant" entirely for a large percentage of water in the cell, enough so that decay stops.

He was a pathologist and I was trained in his procedures but I did not pursue a medical career.

kxsills: He developed a methodology for transfusing tissue down to the cellular level to allow an osmotic replacement of water molecules that basically "fixed" the cells of organs all at once. This was for purposes of studying and preserving medical samples not whole bodies but it was also an outgrowth of our separate study of both mummification and microbiology.

bloodykage: Which one do you think is going to work better neurosuspension or whole-body freezing
kxsills: Again this is about untested and unproven theories of how the brain/mind interface works and I simply feel the answer to your question needs more data. It is premature to say yay or nay, what is needed is a call to more experimentation and study, with an eye to all-together better techniques derived from that process.
kxsills: Corpsicles versus Brain-pops? To me the argument is still void of sufficient data.

Did that sound prejudiced? It isn't I would gladly support more open research and the point is that calling your God a sweet-pickled meat would have been considered sacrilegious to those that believed the pharaohs were gods but that is all they became on their Ships to the Afterlife.


bloodykage: Do you think it is safe now to be cryogenically frozen?
kxsills: Safe?
kxsills: You are already dead

bloodykage: I mean
bloodykage: Well nevermind
bloodykage: I wasnt thinking when i wrote that question

bloodykage: sorry
kxsills: Good question though as it reflects a common misconception
kxsills: I suggest you keep it and the answer for more than comic relief
bloodykage: yes i will

kxsills: Ask instead is it inconsiderate of the dead and the feelings of the living?
kxsills: Ask me if this is about social aspects and ritual behavior and I will give the answer I suspect )

bloodykage: is this about social aspects and ritual behavior?
kxsills: the debate in mass media is, and the debate in many people's minds is as well
bloodykage: I am not getting much of what you are saying can you put it in english.
bloodykage: i got the last though
kxsills: Look at the Ted Williams issue, the real argument is about how we treat the dead and how we serve teh sensibilities of the living
kxsills: ritual
kxsills: we want “psychological closure”
bloodykage: Ok I get it now
kxsills: we want an ability to comune with the dead within our accepted structures
bloodykage: thank you I see it much clearer now
kxsills: prayer, service, and demonstration of continuance through social structures that have evolved over eons
kxsills: cryo prevents closure to the living, this can be overcome but it requires subtlety and respect for social nuance

bloodykage: Do you believe cryonics will become very popular once there are more advances in it?
bloodykage: yes your answers are perfect.
kxsills: I would undertake suspended animation voluntarily and before death if I felt it was an option to apply prior to brain damage and a vegetative coma. But society calls that euthanasia

bloodykage: euthanasia<<what does that mean?
kxsills: mercy killing
bloodykage: Ok thanks for clearing it up again.
kxsills: It is a requirement of law that first you must be dead "Officially" to undertake cryonic suspension
kxsills: in other words brain dead
kxsills: the arguments around how memory is chemically encoded and stored revolve around this aspect of the problem

bloodykage: I read something like that in my book about cryonics.
bloodykage: I thought it was a little weird though.
kxsills: it is weird because it is threshold science and the theories are still vague and unsupported by sufficient evidence
kxsills: while there is a daily more evidence coming in from studies contributing to a growing understanding that will inevitably resolve into a clearer model for cognition soon.

bloodykage: Do you have an idea when?
kxsills: I am a student of the idea not a prophet, questions like this are the least scientific of all asked and the most socially desirable.
bloodykage: Yes I know I just wanted an answer.
bloodykage: Oh well I will just have to wait.

bloodykage: Do you think in the coming years that many more people will go to cryonics?
kxsills: To better answer your previous question, anytime from today through the next century but as we have learned with many aspects of complexity theory as more becomes clear sometimes specific elements of a problem retreat into being more arcane and evermore complex.

I suspect that sooner rather than later we will acquire many of the practical tools necessary for practical cryosuspension

I think this idea’s popularity is predicated on proof; it will be a vastly popular alternative the very next moment after we can successfully revive a subject.

bloodykage: Well i think that is all the questions I have for you.
bloodykage: You have helped me a lot.
bloodykage: It was a pleasure talking to you about cryonics.
kxsills: I hope I have contributed to your understanding of this issue and I would like to end on a positive note.

I am a positive skeptic for this subject. I want cryo to work. I do not feel the adherents and developers are trying to sell snake oil. They are genuinely pursuing a goal to offer a viable alternative to simply accepting our fate. Whether it will work may in many respects be seen as a consequence of investment and due diligence, but it will also depend on the world alive to maintain the dead and be willing to revive them.
kxsills: It was a pleasure to contribute.
thanks

bloodykage: You are a very smart person. I can see why you know a lot looking at your interests you are interested in A LOT of things.
kxsills: true
kxsills: I look past surfaces a lot, for a lot of subjects

bloodykage: Well I want to thank you again for letting me interview you.
kxsills: my pleasure and have a good day,

[Bruce Klein]

Thanks Laz,

Great job in answering the questions in an objective fashion.

[Da55id]

Has there been any successful work with cryonic preservation of organs such as heart, kidney, liver, lung or eyes - where success is defined as the preserved organ being indistinguishable in all respects from a freshly harvested organ after 60 days of cryonic suspension? Is work being done in this direction?

[Lazarus Long]

Has there been any successful work with cryonic preservation of organs such as heart, kidney, liver, lung or eyes - where success is defined as the preserved organ being indistinguishable in all respects from a freshly harvested organ after 60 days of cryonic suspension? Is work being done in this direction?

Not that I am aware of but this is precisely the type of research I would advocate, along with a variety of applied cryogenic storage methods developed for various tissues and stem cells. I suggest this is a very profitable avenue of development with advantages of providing developmental feedback as the methods and problem of reviving tissues are encountered and overcome.

There are methods used now for shorter term storage I believe.

[Da55id]

At some point I think the Methuselah Foundation could mount a prize for "any method that repeatably, practicably and legally provides either preserved or organically synthesized organs such as heart, kidney, liver, lung and eyes such that resulting organs can be produced on demand or preserved for at least 60 days after harvesting such that they are indistinguishable in all medically important ways from a freshly harvested organ." But, I don't think we should do it until after the Reversal/Postponement prizes are at least at the several hundred thousand dollar fund level. Otherwise we will lose focus.

What do you think Laz?

[kevin]

I believe in Jerry Lemler's presentation at the IABG that he stated they had frozen a kidney and then thawed it out and that it continued to function. I would have to listen to the presentation again to be sure though.

[Lazarus Long]

At some point I think the Methuselah Foundation could mount a prize for "any method that repeatably, practicably and legally provides either preserved or organically synthesized organs such as heart, kidney, liver, lung and eyes such that resulting organs can be produced on demand or preserved for at least 60 days after harvesting such that they are indistinguishable in all medically important ways from a freshly harvested organ." 

This is a very good suggestion and a very viable second avenue of development. First however there should be a serious review of the current state of tissue storage methodologies and results. I am aware that some tissues are far easier to store (like skin & bone) and others are more difficult. This is one of my concerns about revival aspects for the tech. But the idea is well founded and the goal would be to outline incentives perhaps on a sliding scale from graft able skin, bone and stem cells after months to years of storage, to neurons, complex organs and glandular tissues like pancreatic cells after various terms of storage.

This approach would encourage individuals studying in various areas to contribute to a growing database of results that could become cumulative and synergistic with respect to separate achievements rather than dependent on a linear developmental approach.

Cancer patients in remission are a target group I have suggested before as needing this development and I suspect insurance and many Medical Technology groups might come to be involved with independent funding for this purpose. Cancer victims would greatly benefit from any and all improvements and given the rapidly rising incidence of Type II diabetes it might be possible to store say pancreatic cells from a period when a genetically determined individual is still negative for expression of the ailment and then in conjunction with stem cells later pancreatic tissues might be grown at a later date as needed into replacement tissue for the pancreas. Tissues that would not face a rejection problem as they would be genetically identical to the recipient.

I don't think we should do it until after the Reversal/Postponement prizes are at least at the several hundred thousand dollar fund level. Otherwise we will lose focus.

This is valid and also as you hand out a few prizes we may find the prize monies grow even faster. Nothing like some rewards to garner interest. Also as the results from this approach bear fruit the implications will become more apparent to the mainstream and participation will likely increase dramatically.

I would be happy after my current desk gets a little cleared to volunteer some time for helping set-up some guidelines for a more complex prize structure targeting some aspects of undeveloped cryogenics avenues. Too much to date has focused on all or nothing aspects of the procedure and for a long time I have felt that more might be gained from an incremental approach that would yield valuable data n what is pragmatically entailed in actually reviving tissues into a living condition from true "suspended animation" ( to use the out of date vernacular ) ).


Also with respect to supporting this endeavor a prize for unraveling the mind/brain operational pragmatics is critical and developing a proven determination of how personal memory actually works and whether recovery of the "self" is actually viable from the after death storage of individuals.

It is educated speculation but as of now a lot seems to me as actually "faith in science" both for the present and future, rather than actual knowledge. However after I reviewed my interview I was thinking about the distinction of "faith and trust."

I do not currently "believe" cryo works "as promised" because the science as claimed lacks sufficient empirical support, but I have trust in the "idea" that it can be made to work if enough human and technical resources are brought to bear on the problem. I have trust in the "principles, "if not yet the practice.

I will look into that Kevin thanks. I do remember some work done on various organs, especially transplant organs. I do not think the temperatures were generally very low and storage was often for the purposes of transport. A lot of the difficulty is derived from the fragility of the cells and some cells are more flexible than others and also contain smaller percentages of water per volume.

[Da55id]

Sounds good to me...so we could lay some groundwork and be ready when the time is right. My motivation here is to help save the lives of the several hundred thousand people who die each year because organs are not available in time, or they get a poor match because of very low numbers of organs at the time of need. In other words, there needs to be a way to create INVENTORY of hearts and livers where people are unarguably dying right now for their lack. I have the intuition that a prize focused on cryo, new organ generation or other organ preservation methods could save those lives in a relatively short time, and as you say, jump start a financially viable and burgeoning research in these areas. It certainly fits in the mold of our charter to reverse human aging. New hearts sound pretty good to me as a way to reverse their age if it can't be done in-vivo anytime soon.

[reason]

I agree that nailing down a good set of winning criteria for a human medicine prize that will definitely encourage healthy life extension *and* be comprehensible and cool to the public is something we need to aim for.

The organ problem is a political one more than a tech one. If selling organs wasn't illegal, there would be no organ shortage right now.

I like the synthesised organ one, but I think that might become an obsolete idea fairly quickly (in favor of stem cell repair-in-situ methods). Hmm.

Reason
Founder, Longevity Meme
reason@longevitymeme.org
http://www.longevitymeme.org

[Bruce Klein]

Charles wasn't able to join us for Sunday Nov 23, thus we'll reschedule for Nov 29th.

However, we had a stimulating chat nonetheless and Max More join us as well... around midway down. ~ BJK

<hr>


21:45<LazLo>econimc downturns would be a threat, the assumption of a continuous growth economy is a fallacy only believed by generations that have "yet " to experience deep depression cycles, maybe Jonesy, we certainly can hope so.
21:45<John_Ventureville>    on cryonet a poster put forth the idea (a bad one) of creating a cryonics cult which brainwashes its minions to care for the suspended. It would be a cross between the moonies and masonry.


21:47<John_Ventureville>    "now we shall bring forth the holy life giving liquid nitrogen" "bring it forth!"
21:47<LazLo>    I can foresee many threat variables that can occur separately and simulataneously, but fewer of these are about the tech directly and more are a bout society as a whole. Wasn't there a takeover attempt byt he Moonies for one of the cryo corps?
21:47<John_Ventureville>    I never heard of that....


21:48<Jonesey>    ancestor worship would be helpful i guess for cryo
21:48<John_Ventureville>    an interesting thought


21:48<John_Ventureville>    if so, China might be a place for cryonics to take hold
21:49<John_Ventureville>    I always thought it would have done well in Japan but that is not the case
21:50<LazLo>    a subtle atempt to coopt through funding or something? They offered a lot on money but wanted teh bylaws changed to allow some of them to move into postiions of responsibilty. It was rebuffed I believe but was tantamount to a not so subtle veiled takeover.

21:50<LazLo>    <<<< trying to log
21:50<John_Ventureville>    with the amount of money they have, the moonies could certainly start their own cryonics organization
21:51<John_Ventureville>    it would be reinventing the wheel but they could do it



21:51<John_Ventureville>    in fact, they could blow Alcor out of the water in terms of facilities and research if they chose to
21:52<BruceK>    thanks Laz

21:52<John_Ventureville>    "Calling Charles Platt"
21:52<BruceK>    thanks john
21:53<Jonesey>    as a biz alcor is a joke. amazing they've done "so well"
21:53<LazLo>    Bruce I am not doing to well at it, whatis that link you gave me last time for loglady?
21:53<BruceK>    ah.. well she seems to be sick


21:53<BruceK>    thus the need for manual log
21:53<Crypsis>    hey BJK did you get the message I left on the server for you?
21:54<BruceK>    ah.. sorry missed that Cryp
21:54<LazLo>    but this java applet won't let me copy/block?
21:54<Crypsis>    it will come up if you change your nick to BJK
21:54<BruceK>    sorry.. java will not..


21:54<Crypsis>    it was from someone else I passed it on
21:55<John_Ventureville>    tonight on 60 Minutes they will be talking about the Howard Hughes medical endowment fund
21:56<BruceK>    jonesey.. can you log us tonight again?
21:56<John_Ventureville>    *over ten billion dollars*
21:56<John_Ventureville>    I wonder how much of that goes into anti-aging research?
21:56<John_Ventureville>    I had no idea there was such a fund

21:57<BruceK>    good investing.. there.. seems..
21:57<Crypsis>    http://www.hhmi.org/
21:58<Crypsis>    http://www.hhmi.org:...y.html?qt=aging
21:59<Jonesey>    i'm always logging, bruce
21:59<BruceK>    thanks

21:59<LazLo>    please this copy/pasting one line at a time is making me age fast :(
22:00*    BruceK wonders if we'll need to reschedule Charles
22:00<LazLo>    he is only a few minutes late
22:01<BruceK>    does anyone have his private email handy... i wasn't able to send him a reminder


22:01<Jonesey>    where is he on the imminst site, his photo/bio?
22:01<BruceK>    http://www.imminst.org

22:01<Guest1>    <Jonesey> and the degree of motivation for future generations to revive frozen ppl is dubious too
22:01<Guest1>    People may not develop nanotechnology with medicine in mind-but if not, then they will surely develop it to build better computers.


22:01<Guest1>    They may not develop cell repair machines with resuscitation in mind, but they will surely do so to heal themselves.
22:02<Guest1>    They may not program repair machines for resuscitation as an act of impersonal charity, but they will have time, wealth, and automated engineering systems, and some of them will have loved ones waiting in biostasis. Resuscitation techniques seem sure to be developed and used.

22:02<BruceK>    guest = charles?

22:02<Jonesey>    yup bruce but which area of the site? looked and didn't find him
22:02<Guest1>    Charles?


22:03<BruceK>    ahh is that you Charles Platt = Guest1
22:03<Guest>    no, it's Sabina, hi!
22:03<Guest1>    No, My last name is Party:)
22:03<BruceK>    ah.. great.. nice to see you
22:03<BruceK>    heh.. i see..
22:03<Guest1>    Boston T.


22:03<BruceK>    Jonesey.. scroll down on the homepage look under Chats
22:04<--    Ven has quit (Quit: )
22:04<Guest1>    Most scientists would be shocked to think that the work they are doing in their laboratories will inevitably lead to the vast extension of human life spans. They are concentrating on individual investigations focusing on specific research programs. Yet that is where todays research is leading us; to the extension of human life spans well past the century mark, and if we survive that long we shall live for milleniums. Immortality is the goa

22:06<LazLo>    Methuselah Mouse and I have been discussing another prize cncept offered for incremental and siginificant developmental aspects of cryogenics


22:06<Guest1>    These advanced concepts will be years in arriving, but researchers motivated by medical needs are already studying molecular machines and molecular engineering. Medical needs will push this work forward, encouraging researchers to take further steps toward molecular engineering. Medical, military, and economic pressures will all push us in the same direction.


22:06<LazLo>    dealing with actually preparing and storing organs for viability after say 60 days to a few years
22:07<LazLo>    organ transplantation is a growing need


22:07<LazLo>    storing healthy organs fr later donation woudl be a big breakthrough
22:07<BruceK>    Guest1, all good points... and well taken... but who are you, if I may ask?
22:08<Crypsis>    Bruce I may have charles's phone number, check your messages
22:08<Guest1>    I am, simply a guest.
22:08<BruceK>    gotcha.. thanks


22:09<BruceK>    didn't mean to pry.
22:11<--    Ven has quit (Quit: )
22:11<BruceK>    what got you interested in life extension, Guest1?
22:12<Guest1>    When one is invisible he finds such problems as good and evil, honesty and dishon­esty easy to see. One is able to think with clarity and act with intelligence or understanding.


22:12<John_Ventureville>    Guest1, George Smith, a former frequent cryonet poster would state your views over and over again regarding scientific research being a "juggernaut" which would ultimately get cryonicists and immortalists what they want


22:14<Jonesey>    guest1:one is also able to get away with stuff that one couldn't if one were visible
22:14<BruceK>    Guest1, humans do seem to be enamored with fairness.. as they should be.. and the internet provides an intersting social tool in that people can try on different caps


22:15<Guest1>    What got me interested. I'm a long range planner. Long-Range planning does not deal with future decisions, it deals with the future of present decisions.

22:16<John_Ventureville>    I meant "mainstream" scientific research being a juggernaut
22:16<BruceK>    small choices have great effect over hundreds of years.. this is true.
22:17<BruceK>    Guest1, why do you want to live longer?


22:18<BruceK>    if I may be so bold as to ask...
22:18<Guest1>    one moment
22:19<Guest1>    I love being alive and don’t want any of our lives to end.
22:20<BruceK>    hmm.. why do you love life?


22:20<Guest1>     The most important thing we all have is our own lives. Where I differ from others is my unwillingness to admit defeat because contemporary medical and social authority tell us that we should. I believe in fighting even if the odds against us may be high. I believe we should fight, because some chance to hold on to our precious lives, even a small chance, is better than no chance and certain death.
22:20<BruceK>    why is death bad?


22:21<Guest1>    Why love live, well the alternative death holds no promise for me
22:21<Guest1>    life


22:21<Guest1>    Apparently fear of death is not the main motivating force for people to sign up for cryonic suspension.
22:21<Jonesey>    it is for me!

22:22<BruceK>    Guest.. why is death such a bad thing?
22:22<BruceK>    sorry for the 20 questions.. but i'm still unclear as to your underlying motivations..
22:23<Guest1>    I do not believe in life after death
22:23<BruceK>    ahh.. there ya go...


22:23<BruceK>    thus.. death = oblivion?
22:23<Guest1>    ..and it is for me also Jonesey
22:23<Guest1>    Yes Bruce

22:23<BruceK>    thanks.. just wanted to make this clear

22:24<Guest1>    If it were, those signing up would primarily be the old. In fact, most arranging to be suspended are the baby-boomers generation, not the elderly. To me this suggests that faith in technology may be a more important motivating factor than fear of dying. In any case, cryonicists are people with a strong desire to live, not die.


22:25<Guest1>    Though their names are not known to me, there are a group of people who are of historical importance for being the last of their kind. Who, for instance, was the last person to die of smallpox? This disease has now been eradicated and the smallpox virus exists only in a safeguarded laboratory. Someone had the distinction of being its last victim. Diphtheria which used to cause 15,000 deaths a year in the United States has almost been eradic

22:25<BruceK>    this is probably true...


22:25<Guest1>    Because of poverty and lack of medical care there are still people dying from diseases which could easily have been prevented. From the point of view of inevitability, these people are dying needlessly. But, one can optimistically assume that in the not too distant future adequate medical care will be available to everyone. Someone now
alive, for instance, could well be the last person to die of a pneumonia which could have been cured with

22:26<BruceK>    do you think cryonics would do better to try and sell death as oblivion rather than life is wonderful?
22:26<Guest1>    Now, imagine that you were a person dying of pneumonia before the discovery of penicillin and all the other antibiotics. Further imagine that someone offered to put you to sleep until a cure could be found for your pneumonia. Would you have accepted that offer? I know I would


22:27<BruceK>    depends a lot on one's perception of what happens after death...
22:27<BruceK>    some feel old and want to die...
22:27<BruceK>    it's to painful to live on..

22:27<Guest1>    That's a Marketing descision, I have no opion on that..
22:27<BruceK>    why?

22:27<Crypsis>     want to escape pain, not die
22:27<John_Ventureville>    I think old age tends to "sneak up" on people and slowly take away the youthful love of life
22:27<Jonesey>    some feel young and want to die, depressed

22:28<Crypsis>    some feel young and want dramatic changes in thier life, depressed
22:28<BruceK>    Guest1, say you had 1million to spend on marketing Cryonics..

22:28<Jonesey>    haha Crypsis
22:28<Guest1>    I don't know, I just know that I do not want to be among the first to avoid the distinction of having died just before the dawning of the era of immortality.

22:28<Crypsis>    ow
22:28<BruceK>    where best would you divide your monies.... 50 / 50 live = wonderful and death = oblivion?
22:29<John_Ventureville>    don't advertising experts say going really negative can often leave a stronger & longerlasting impression on the target audience?

22:30<BruceK>    hmm... i think it depends on what you're selling..
22:30<BruceK>    but humor is probably the best

22:30<Iscariot>    more people probably belive life is wonderful, then that death = oblivion.
22:30<John_Ventureville>    and SEX!
22:30<BruceK>    well yes.. sex is first

22:30<John_Ventureville>    maybe we should combine them all...
22:30<Iscariot>    you'd be advertising to a bigger market with life is wonderful.
22:30<Guest1>    I don't know, That's a question perhaps better answered by Mr. Platt.
22:30<BruceK>    make cryonics hip and sexy.. and this would probably be the best bet

22:31<Iscariot>    aha.
22:31<John_Ventureville>    come back from the hopeful ice and party hardy!
22:31<John_Ventureville>    lol
22:31<BruceK>    we may have to reschedule Charles for Saturday Nov 29

22:31<Crypsis>    did you call him?
22:31<BradleyGirl>    :O)

22:32<BruceK>    Crypsis... didn't call him... as rescheduling is not a big problem
22:32<Guest1>    A new scientific truth is not usually presented in a way to convince its opponents. Unfortunately opponents die off, and a rising generation is familiarized with the truth from the start. Those who view death as always and forever certain will have a much different view of cryonics from those holding the opposite opinion. One man’s foolish desperation will be another’s well-calculated and reasonable gamble. And, as with politics and religio
22:34<BruceK>    good point...
22:35<John_Ventureville>    brb


22:35<John_Ventureville>    dinner time
22:37<BruceK>    John..
22:37<Jonesey>    there are people who think there's a nonzero prob of reanimation after cryo who've expressed fears to me of the post reanimation scenario
22:38<BruceK>    do these people give an alternative to cryonics?
22:38<Jonesey>    yes, final death
22:39<Jonesey>    oblivion is preferable to some small probabiliyt of torture by sadistic aliens in the distant future
22:39<BruceK>    I see... so they should just go ahead and kill themselves?
22:39<Jonesey>    my response exactly


22:39<BruceK>    i wonder what evolutioanry psychology trait this is..
22:39<Guest1>    What was to be Mr. Platt's topic matter tonight?
22:40<BruceK>    Cryonics the future and problems..
22:40<gustavo>    BJK, does it have to be an evolutionary psychology trait? Couldn' t it be a culturally acquired trait, at least partly?

22:40<BruceK>    fear of waking up to a more powerful clan.. probably the same fear of being invaded by another tribe...
22:41<BruceK>    gustavo... humans are so much alike on a fundamental level...
22:41<BruceK>    but yes.. culture does play a big part
22:41<BruceK>    take a china kid.. raise him in the US..


22:41<BruceK>    see what happens
22:41<Guest1>    I choose to be optimistic rather than pessimistic about the future.
22:41<gustavo>    ideology is a powerful force
22:42<gustavo>    the fact that humans are alike does not mean that such similarity derives from biology
22:42<gustavo>    for instance


22:42<Guest1>    The only limit to our realization of tomorrow will be our doubts of today.
22:42<gustavo>    all cultures have religions, but that doesn't mean that religion is biologically determined
22:43<Guest1>    Considering all that has been accomplished in the past half century and the fact that scientific knowledge appears to be growing exponentially, the next half-century should see human life spans extended to centuries. For all practical purposes, aging will be a thing of the past, and death will be an option rather than an inescapable end of life.


22:43<gustavo>    in other words, what I am trying to say, BJ
22:43<gustavo>    is that our fight is not against our genes only
22:43<BruceK>    gustavo, this is true.. but all humans have the problem of death..
22:43<gustavo>    is more against powerful cultural forces
22:43<Jonesey>    very optimistic guest1, i don't think so soon. not the next 50 yrs
22:43<Jonesey>    but eventually yep


22:44<gustavo>    all humans have the problem of death, but human beings conformity, acceptance of death
22:44<gustavo>    does that come from biology?
22:44<gustavo>    or is it a widely spread ideology?
22:44<BruceK>    gustavo, i agree.. one has to win the battle of the memes.. because the genes are pretty much set
22:45<gustavo>    ok, we agree then!


22:45<BruceK>    yepper... i just like to know the root cause..
22:45<ddhewitt>    But perhaps the genes predispose one towards certain memes and behaviours.
22:45<Guest1>    When will molecular technology become available? That is unknowable, but time is on ones side if one is frozen. Liquid nitrogen temperature will hold cells in near-perfect stasis for thousands of years.
22:45-->    cyborg01 (~y.k.y@147.4.225.217) has joined #immortal
22:45<gustavo>    ok, there BJ and DDHewitt I have an epistemological disagreement with you
22:46<BruceK>    it helps me see it in a wider perspective.... lot of times people will become bogged down in some great humaness ideology which clouds the fact that we're just animals


22:46<Guest1>    Half a century ago, most scientists deemed space travel unfeasible, and some contended that the sound barrier would never be broken. Many doctors, forty years ago, considered heart transplants scientifically impossible. Who, even thirty years ago could have imagined today’s laptop computers, omnipresent cellular phone systems, or the internet?
22:46<Guest1>     In 1986, many biologists deemed it scientifically impossible to clone an adult mammal.
22:46<gustavo>    BJ, this philosophical disagreemen is not a problem, since we agree on our GOALS (becoming immortals)


22:47<gustavo>    but I don't think we are ONLY animals
22:47<BruceK>    death sucks.. pretty easy to agree upon
22:47<Crypsis>    If so long as it does not in some way violate the laws of physics, all technologys will eventualy emerge
22:47<BruceK>    gustavo.. how are we more than animal?
22:47<gustavo>    we are animals, but also, culture is our second nature
22:47<gustavo>    it's hard to give a short answer
22:48<BruceK>    what's so great about culture?

22:48<ddhewitt>    We are different than other animals in that we can choose to disobey the program of our genes.
22:48<gustavo>    i don't think that a good description, DDHewitt
22:48<goomba>    but even having the choice is programmed
22:49<gustavo>    it is not

22:49<ddhewitt>    It opens the door for free will.
22:49<Crypsis>    free will.....

22:49<gustavo>    free will is a cultural deveolpment
22:49<ddhewitt>    Free will is not dependent on culture IMHO.
22:49<gustavo>    you take most civilizations before the romans, there no notion of free will
22:49<Jonesey>    guest1:I sure hope you're right on the time frame
22:49<gustavo>    it is only when legal institutions are developed
22:49<gustavo>    and people are made responsible for their acts
22:49<gustavo>    that free will emerges

22:50<Rotaerk>    I dont think any creature could disobey its own genes.
22:50<Rotaerk>    We just have DIFFERENT programs.
22:50<Guest1>    Me too;)

22:50<gustavo>    when you are playing guitar
22:50<gustavo>    you are neither disobeying nor obeying your genes
22:50<Crypsis>    how would you prove something disobeyed its own genes?
22:50<gustavo>    you are moving on a different level
22:50<gustavo>    the level of cultural meanings

22:50<Jonesey>    death's very bearable once it's over with, it's the knowledge that one is about to die that sucks
22:51<BruceK>    interesting gustavo... but many would say you're just trying to impress a mate
22:51<gustavo>    yes, but what matters is the HOW


22:51<BruceK>    playing right to your genes
22:51<gustavo>    the goal, the energy, the motivation may come from my genes, my hormones
22:51<gustavo>    but the LANGUAGE, the medium you are moving in
22:51<gustavo>    it's radically different from nature
22:52<BruceK>    eh.. birds do it

22:52<gustavo>    and in using symbols, artifacts, etc. you are becoming a differnt kind of creature
22:52<gustavo>    not in the same way
22:52<gustavo>    birds, for instance
22:52<gustavo>    have a fixed ttemplate of possible songs
22:52<Rotaerk>    so do humans.
22:52<gustavo>    no

22:52<gustavo>    humans are developing new musical languages all the time
22:52<Jonesey>    that's why it amuses me that many consider the death penalty less "cruel and unusual" than torture or dismemberment. I don't think so.


22:53<Guest1>    Why to we need Mr. Platt to discuss the future of Cryonics, and it's problems?
22:53<BruceK>    gustavo.. why is this important again?
22:53<gustavo>    its important because
22:53<BruceK>    why should we want to feel more than animal?
22:53<gustavo>    I think there is a tendency to do some oversimplistic reductionism
22:54<gustavo>    of mind to digital computers
22:54<BruceK>    Guest1 because he has more experience than all of us put together
22:54<gustavo>    of meanings to computer programs
22:54<BruceK>    i tend to agree...


22:54<gustavo>    it is important not to fall prey of our own illusions
22:54<BruceK>    but...
22:54<Guest1>    experience in what specifically
22:54<Guest1>    ?
22:55<BruceK>    i doubt there is meaning in meaning
22:55<BruceK>    life just is.
22:55<Crypsis>    oh man
22:55<gustavo>    I agree with that!
22:55<BruceK>    heh


22:55<BruceK>    how's that for poetry
22:55<gustavo>    and meaning is meaning only insofar as we don't die
22:55<BruceK>    i bet i could get layed with that line
22:55<Crypsis>    by what is the question
22:55<BruceK>    good point
22:56<BruceK>    are we more than animal?
22:56<BruceK>    and does it even matter?
22:56<Guest1>    What about the future problems of Cryonics, that's something that Mr. Platt doesn't have more experience with.


22:56<Crypsis>    perhaps the idea of "just animal" is too small?
22:56<ddhewitt>    We imbue life with meaning.
22:56<Jonesey>    hm?
22:56<Jonesey>    we're debating if we're mammals now?
22:56<--    Iscariot has quit (Ping timeout)
22:56<Crypsis>    no
22:56<BruceK>    Guest1, this is true.. but he's delt with many past problems
22:56<gustavo>    this is something that I think a lot when I read the posts at imminst... I agree with the goals, but I think there sometimes is a lot of wishful thinking
22:57<Guest1>    What kind of problems?
22:57<ddhewitt>    I agree with you there gustavo.
22:57<gustavo>    in that people believe that "ok, we already understand what we are, we are these machines, we almost have this whole problem solved"


22:57<Rotaerk>    People tend to have a humanistic reflex through which they express their desire to be special.
22:57<BruceK>    gustavo.. i agree.. there's a lot of exuberient optimism
22:58<Crypsis>    meaning, no meaning, special not special, its all a wash
22:58<BruceK>    immortality attracts such individuals..
22:58<gustavo>    i don't care about "special" I'm not special (i'm a creeeep....)
22:58-->    Guest2 (~Guest@sdn-ap-025txhousP0278.dialsprint.net) has joined #immortal
22:58*    BruceK would tend to agree
22:59<Guest1>    Bruce, aren't you just as capable of discussing the future problems of Cryonics?
22:59<BruceK>    as it takes a creep to understand a creep
22:59<gustavo>    ha ha


22:59<Crypsis>    We are the All Singing, All dancing ...
22:59<BruceK>    
22:59<BruceK>    Guest1, yes.. but it helps to have someone who has been there..
23:00<BruceK>    with past problems.. to help with ideas for the future
23:00<Guest1>    Aren't the past problems known, what kind of problems, like legal, ethical, technical
23:00<Jonesey>    all this creep talk...cripes
23:01<BruceK>    creep talk can be crippling to crips converstions
23:01<Crypsis>    polictical social economic environmental
23:01<BruceK>    course would help if i could spell
23:01<Jonesey>    heheh


23:02<Jonesey>    well the past is past and will never return. the future we know not, only the present is our own
23:02<Jonesey>    or so i hear
23:02<Guest2>    Excuse me for stepping in late, but is Charles still here?
23:02<BruceK>    Guest1, there's of course the big question of when or if cryonics is proven to be somewhat successful... can Alcor handle the increase in membership


23:02<Crypsis>    Guest2: no show, feel free to hang about
23:03<BruceK>    Guest2.. we'll reschedule Charles for Sat Nov 29
23:03<Guest2>    Ah, sorry to hear that.

MAX MORE Join ImmInst Chat

23:03<Guest2>    Guest2 = Max More, BTW
23:03<Crypsis>    oy max
23:03<Guest2>    I expect Alcor would be glad to have the opportunity to be tested!
23:03<BruceK>    Ah.. cool welcome Max..
23:03<Guest2>    Thank you Bruce


23:04<BruceK>    you can change your nick by typing '/me Max' if you'd like
23:04<Jonesey>    hi max, fun talk you gave at the alcor conf last nov
23:04<gustavo>    see you guys...
23:04<Guest2>    Did anyone tackle the question that Charles was to answer?
23:04*    Guest2 Max


23:04<BruceK>    take care Gustavo..
23:04<Jonesey>    relevant to this chat, we've been talking about adapting to reanimation
23:04<Crypsis>    NICK max
23:04<Jonesey>    "/nick Max"
23:04<BruceK>    yikes.. sorry it's /nick
23:04<Crypsis>    /NICK max
23:04---    Guest2 is now known as Max
23:04<Max>    Bingo
23:04<Crypsis>    heh


23:04<Max>    I'm now in my second life cycle here
23:05<Jonesey>    heh identity crisis
23:05<--    gustavo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
23:05<BruceK>    a refresh is always healthy
23:05<Max>    Why was it thought that growth would be a particular problem for Alcor?
23:05<Crypsis>    Max: we have been picking around the edges of the issue
23:05<Max>    Keeping the main carcass of the issue fresh for Charles?
23:05<BruceK>    Max.. this is one problem CP said he'd like to discuss with the chat.. (i think)
23:06<John_Ventureville>    when the Alcor standby training was at the Creekside, Charles Platt gave a thorough discussion on the future challenges of cryonics
23:06<Max>    BruceK, understood
23:06<Max>    That must be Mr Grigg
23:06<BruceK>    this would be a good problem of course
23:07<BruceK>    but aren't all problems good in some way
23:07<John_Ventureville>    it is I!


23:07<Max>    BruceK, indeed. It's surprising but true that major growth can be an organizational killer.
23:07<BruceK>    all change is to be embrased as opportunity
23:07<Jonesey>    humans are fractious yup
23:07<Max>    Managers tend to become anchored to their former ways of doing things, but those no longer work well.
23:07<Jonesey>    biggest threat to org stability.
23:07<Crypsis>    BruceK: inclusing death?
23:08<BruceK>    ehh, exclude that pesky one
23:08<Jonesey>    well that's a good point actually
23:08<Max>    However, starting from Alcor's size, major growth could mean more resources for more professional management


23:08<Jonesey>    too much stability is bad, kills adaptablity
23:08<Jonesey>    puzzler
23:09<Max>    Jonesey: an example is entrepreneurial organizations that grow and find their old, loose ways of working aren't appropriate
23:09<BruceK>    I predict Alcor will see competiton soon..
23:09<BruceK>    not only from CI but from others
23:09<Jonesey>    heh e.g. apple


23:09<John_Ventureville>    and if Alcor began to grow by leaps and bounds I would imagine serious competition would occur
23:09<Max>    Competition has had a way of appearing then shooting itself in the foot
23:09<Max>    But if cryonics REALLY grows, you can bet well-run health organizations will jump in
23:09<Jonesey>    big funeral home chains are in a decent position to compete but this is a big paradigm shift for them psychologically.

23:10<John_Ventureville>    I once thought of that.
23:10<Max>    Yes, there are *some* well-run health organizations
23:10<Max>    I don't think funeral homes are the biggest threat
23:11<Max>    Unless people see biostasis as just a form of disposal
23:11<BruceK>    any word on TimeShip.org lately?
23:11<Max>    Otherwise, it's just not in the same market space
23:11<Jonesey>    that's one path to mass acceptance, just another funeral option.
23:11<Max>    An expensive funeral


23:11<Max>    and a socially unpopular one
23:11<Crypsis>    some people may see biostasis as just a form of procrastination
23:12<John_Ventureville>    When a fortune 500 corporation decides to throw their hat into the cryonics arena times will have changed!
23:12<Jonesey>    heheh Crypsis
23:12<Max>    Some procrastination is GOOD!
23:12<John_Ventureville>    true


23:12<John_Ventureville>    Anders explained that one to me
23:12<John_Ventureville>    in terms of generation ships
23:12<BruceK>    Max.. have you had a chance to see your link on the homepage of ImmInst?
23:13<Max>    Yes, Bruce, saw that today
23:13<--    Guest has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
23:13<Max>    It made me realize that I need to update my bio!
23:13<BruceK>    let me know if you'd like to make any changes
23:13<BruceK>    heh
23:13<Max>    Will do, thanks
23:13<Jonesey>    3:18 here in spain, gonna crash. bruce i'll leave logging on and will send it to u when i wake up in a few hrs :(
23:13<BruceK>    see you need another refresh
23:14<Max>    Bye Jonesey
23:14<BruceK>    thanks Jone.. can you email the log?
23:14<Jonesey>    l8r max
23:14<Jonesey>    yep see above
23:15<John_Ventureville>    Max, how are things going with the book you are working on?
23:15<John_Ventureville>    Do you have a release date yet?
23:15<Max>    The book has undergone a major transformation
23:15<John_Ventureville>    wow
23:15<Max>    I don't want to say much about it however until I'm ready....
23:15<John_Ventureville>    in what way?
23:15<John_Ventureville>    ok
23:15<Max>    It's much more practically focused,
23:15<Crypsis>    oh come on
23:16<John_Ventureville>    could you give us a broad idea of what the book is about?
23:16<Max>    I think I finally completed the transition from abstract philosopher to future-oriented problem-solver
23:16<John_Ventureville>    I see
23:16<John_Ventureville>    excellent
23:16<Max>    I *could*... :-)
23:16<Max>    Okay, very briefly
23:16<John_Ventureville>    : )
23:17<BruceK>    in the same vein... ImmInst is now open to essay submissions for it's planned book to be released early in 2004
23:17<BruceK>    check http://www.imminst.org/book for more
23:17<--    mporter has quit (Quit: )
23:17<Max>    The aim is to reveal and integrate a wide range of cognitive tools for individuals and organizations to think more effectively about
23:17<Max>    new issues driven by advanced and emerging technologies.
23:17<Max>    Great, Bruce
23:18<Max>    Do you have distribution plans in place?
23:18<BruceK>    Natash has graciously submitted her abstract
23:18<BruceK>    we do actually..
23:18<BruceK>    Gustavo has rolled out the red carpet for us..
23:18<Max>    If you haven't already covered the population issue, I could brush that one up...
23:18-->    Utnapishtim (~Utnapisht@82-35-20-218.cable.ubr03.hari.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #immortal
23:18<BruceK>    thanks for your help there.. i'll keep in mind
23:19<Max>    I don't Gustavo, but that sounds like a good thing
23:19<BruceK>    he is part owner of the pub. co.
23:19<Max>    The existing version should be on my website
23:19<Max>    Ah ha
23:19<Utnapishtim>    hi


23:19<BruceK>    and has really cut us a nice plan
23:20<BruceK>    'existing versin' = ?
23:20<John_Ventureville>    hello Utnap!
23:20<Max>    http://www.maxmore.c...rpopulation.htm
23:20<BruceK>    ahh. cool so you'd like to submit this essay?
23:20<--    Utnapishtim has quit (Quit: JWIRC applet)
23:20<Max>    Yes, but I'll be happy to update and improve the style
23:20<BruceK>    i'll let our editing team know.. thanks!
23:20<Max>    Great, thank YOU


23:21<John_Ventureville>    Bruce, would you consider a Venturist offering for your book?
23:21<BruceK>    we have a team of 7 who'd love to chomp into some material
23:21<John_Ventureville>    Mike Perry would probably be the best man for the job.
23:21<BruceK>    we would be happy to have an offering from those nuts
23:21<John_Ventureville>    ; )

23:22<BruceK>    Mike will join us for a chat in Dec
23:22<John_Ventureville>    I saw that
23:22<John_Ventureville>    great news


23:22<BruceK>    yes.. his first chat
23:22<Max>    I used to write an Immortalist Philosophy column for Alcor's magazine. I'll check out your book plan and see if new versions of any of those might be possiblilties
23:22<Guest1>    Bruce, on the issue of cryonics, what do you think is the most important problem to work on next?


23:22<BruceK>    great max
23:22<BruceK>    Guest1, making immortality a safe concept to talk about
23:22<Guest1>    ???

23:22<BruceK>    we need to come out of the closet
23:23<John_Ventureville>    speaking of that..
23:23<Crypsis>    who hasnt?
23:23<John_Ventureville>    issue two of Physical Immortality is out
23:23<BruceK>    death = oblivion should not be taboo like cancer and sex used to be
23:23<Guest1>    Isn't cryonics well known?


23:23<John_Ventureville>    death and money are perhaps the last two great taboos
23:24<BruceK>    we should cure death like we cured polio
23:24<Crypsis>    BruceK: seriously, who is hesitant to talk about it?
23:24<BruceK>    Crypsis.. me
23:24<Crypsis>    wow
23:24<Guest1>    I agree, what can this group do to help?
23:24*    Crypsis is suprised


23:24<--    Utnapishtim has quit (Quit: JWIRC applet)
23:24<BruceK>    to my family and anyone else except you guys
23:25<Crypsis>    hmm well Im not and never have been so thats why Im suprised
23:25<John_Ventureville>    you have to be careful discussing physical immortality so that you are not branded a "weird"
23:25<BruceK>    i'm not a brave person in this respect... i feel social norms pulling me away from talking about important issues like physical immortality..


23:25<BruceK>    i think people will think im selfish
23:26-->    Utnapishtim (~Utnapisht@82-35-20-218.cable.ubr03.hari.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #immortal
23:26<Guest1>    Selfish, well can't we talk about those, "memes"
23:26<Crypsis>    ah ok, I got comfortable being considered a "weird" long ago
23:26<John_Ventureville>    I've read a strength of Max is that he can talk about the most "out there" things and get someone to go along with the idea


23:26<BruceK>    Leon Kass says "Immortals can not be noble"
23:26<BruceK>    I think many people tend to agree with Kass here....
23:26<Max>    Bye, everyone. Have to go for now, but will be back for future chats.
23:26<Crypsis>    ok
23:26<John_Ventureville>    goodnight
23:26<Guest1>    Than would you not agree that disecting those memes is a project that we should work on?
23:26<BruceK>    take care Max
23:26<John_Ventureville>    so long pardner!
23:27<Max>    Stay cool
23:27-->    utnapishtee (~jeromejth@82-35-20-218.cable.ubr03.hari.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #immortal
23:27<BruceK>    Guest1, very much so...
23:27<John_Ventureville>    (Arizonan to a Texan)
23:27<Guest1>    Good night John



23:27<utnapishtee>    Finally
23:27<Crypsis>    why is loving life selfish? I dont understand


23:27<Guest1>    That is not a very difficult thing to do Bruce
23:28<utnapishtee>    How important are the abstract ethical speculations really in the absence of a belief by the vast majority of the public that what we propose is even feasible?
23:28<BruceK>    Cryp, many people think that you're being selfish by wanting to live longer.. selfish = overpopulation.. selfish = hoarding resources... selfish = don't care about poor people who can't afford life extension.. etc.
23:29<Crypsis>    ah

23:29<John_Ventureville>    and going against the natural rhythms of life and death
23:29<BruceK>    Naturalistic Falicy
23:29<utnapishtee>    BruceK: People think this in the abstract. I think that if such tech actualyl existed those concerns might well vanish


23:29<John_Ventureville>    my atheist younger brother feels that way
23:29<utnapishtee>    And if they don't... they can always do the noble thing and shuffle off this mortal coil
23:29<Guest1>    Bruce, I can't seem to copy and paste, could you save those topics
23:29<BruceK>    big big problem.. just remember we're living an 'artificial' world already.. we drive metal cars and have plastic hearts..
23:30<John_Ventureville>    he has dated too many enviro-radical girls!
23:30<John_Ventureville>    lol


23:30<Crypsis>    ok well hmm.. If Iwanted to be a real jerk Id say: live longer.. selfish? = overpopulation.. selfish? = hoarding resources... selfish? = don't care about poor people who can't afford life extension? fine KILL YOURSELF
23:30<BruceK>    Guest1, I will post the log under Charles's topic soon...
23:30<Guest1>    thank you
23:30<utnapishtee>    BruceK: did Charles show up for this chat?
23:30<John_Ventureville>    nope
23:31<BruceK>    Cryp, we need everyone helping.. if not we all will likely die
23:31<Guest1>    Perhaps we could work on those memes together
23:31<Crypsis>    yes I know thanks fo the reminder
23:31<BruceK>    Utna, will have the chat on Sat Nov 29
23:31<BruceK>    Cryp, how we help those who don't want to be helped.... will be important to our overall success.. we must reach out to all
23:32<BruceK>    or none at all


23:32<utnapishtee>    Honestly: I think that is the technology actually existed then the only people with ethical reservations would be those who couldn't afford it and a few greenpeace types
23:32<Crypsis>    the spill over effect of life etending technologys is already reaching 3d worlders in the form of disease prevention and medical care, we can expect this to accellerate
23:32<utnapishtee>    BruceK: IYou think we must convince everyone of our philosophical position in regards to extended lifespan?


23:33<Guest1>    I don't know about the "meme" we must
23:33<BruceK>    i think is should be clear enough so that everyone can understand it easily.. not all will agree, of course.. but we should still show that we're trying..
23:34<Crypsis>    how we help those who don't want to be helped is already happening in the way that incremental advances in healthcare and prevention is radiating outwards to everyone
23:34<BruceK>    just the show is almost as important as the actuall success of it


23:34<Guest1>    And I don't know about the meme "we must convince everyone of our philosophical position"
23:34<utnapishtee>    The most compelling aspect of this for joe average is that he gets his looks and vitality back. Do we really need to drop a whole world view on him?
23:35<Crypsis>    utnapishtee: exactly, it has to play for joe and jill lunchbox,
23:35<Guest1>    Isn't that meme the same sort of religious meme that people die and kill for??
23:35<Guest1>    Shouldn't we persuade


23:36<Guest1>    Not everyone is going to embrace our favorite future
23:36<--    Max has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
23:36<utnapishtee>    A little dissapointing that Charles Platt didn't show
23:36<Crypsis>    the fear of death and aging, even to the ego, will respond to products available in the market place for quick and easy solutions


23:36<BruceK>    partly my fault for not sending a reminder..
23:37<utnapishtee>    I find it amazing that a man who has worked so long and hard in the cryonics field has no interest in being suspended himself. |I really find that mindboggling
23:37<Crypsis>    utnapishtee: AFAYK
23:37<utnapishtee>    Crypsis: Yes
23:37<Crypsis>    he may be privately interested
23:37<Guest1>    I'm not advocating force. I have people dying in my family. I've told them about cryonics, tried to explain the possible repair technology
23:37<utnapishtee>    Crypsis: This is the impression I got from his posts to cryonet
23:38<Crypsis>    ok
23:38<Crypsis>    Guest1: my wife accepted the idea in about 10 min of talking to her



23:38<Guest>    hello
23:38<Crypsis>    Guest1: many of my freinds like the idea but just cant commit the funds
23:39<utnapishtee>    Guest: How old are your friends?
23:39<Crypsis>    30's to 50's



23:39<Guest1>    hello
23:39<Crypsis>    hey
23:39<Crypsis>    your here
23:39<utnapishtee>    If I was in my fifties I'd definitely want to have a policy in place
23:40<Guest1>    yeah, my screen went blank
23:40<Crypsis>    consider a irc program that is notn java based next time


23:40<utnapishtee>    Just out of interest. How bullish are the people here on the prospects of current cryonics patients ever being revived?
23:41<Guest1>    there is no conversation above my hello
23:41<Guest1>    Bullish


23:41<Crypsis>    utnapishtee: barring sociopolitical bariers %100 certain
23:41<utnapishtee>    crypsis: WOW!
23:42<Crypsis>    Guest1 yes you crashed and had to re-log in
23:42<utnapishtee>    what gives you that degree of confidence


23:42<Crypsis>    anything technology that does not violate the laws of physics will eventualy emerge
23:42<utnapishtee>    Isn't it possible that present suspension techniques simply are too inefficient at preserving the neccessary info
23:42<John_Ventureville>    I wish I knew more about the true nature of longterm memory & neuron damage during the vitrification process before saying I was that certain.
23:43<utnapishtee>    Is the United States really the best place for cryonics facilities
23:43<Guest1>    No
23:43<John_Ventureville>    I would say there is a 50% of cryonics working.
23:43<Guest1>    Not today anyway


23:43<Crypsis>    it is for me because I live here
23:43<utnapishtee>    crypsisL I don't understand that rationale
23:44<John_Ventureville>    cryonics longterm storage should be done by giant zeppelins which stay over international waters.
23:44<John_Ventureville>    ; )
23:44<Guest1>    John gets it
23:44<utnapishtee>    if you have 100% confidence in his effectiveness then I would assume cryonics would absolutely take precedence as far as your retirement plans are concerned up to and inculding relocating to another location

[Bruce Klein]

CHARLES PLATT - CHAT ARCHIVE

=====

18:04:37 BruceKlein how many suspensions have you been a part of?
18:05:21 cplatt I was the staff photographer for Jim Glennie's case in, I think, 1991. Then I did 1 CryoCare case, and then maybe 6 or 7 Alcor cases in 2002/2003.
18:06:08 cplatt Oddly, I have never been on a standby which resulted in cryopreservation. The Timothy Leary standby was aborted, and so was Libby Peters' standby
18:06:37 cplatt The case I did for CryoCare involved someone calling me at 3pm and saying "come and get my mother, she just died." So I did.
18:06:45 EmilG ... if I recall correctly, because Leary decided he didn't want to spend eternity "surrounded by a bunch of jerks".
18:06:48 BruceKlein sorry.. for the slow pace..
18:07:02 EmilG No offense, I just remembered that line...
18:07:06 Greg Charles, how serious are your "demographic" concerns about cryonics organizations?
18:07:26 cplatt The Leary situation was very complicated, with irrationality is copious supply. Leary was irrational, Mike Darwin was irrational, and after six weeks of waiting, I was probably irrational too.
18:08:11 cplatt Not sure what you mean by demographic concerns. You mean the age distribution of cryonics memberships? It's going to be more of a problem 10 to 15 years from now.
18:08:40 Greg I saw your quote about "pyramid" schemes -- I'm using the term loosley to apply to a growing membership and flat fees.
18:08:50 cplatt Remember, current average life expectancy is around 75 for men, 78 for women, in the USA. Alcor has a lot of members in their 60s.
18:09:12 EmilG In order to avoid legal situations and PR problems like with Ted Williams, all members should be advised to have their wills state very clearly what they want.
18:09:25 cplatt I think it's very, very strange to give people the impression they will "always" be taken care of, at the minimum rate applying when they join.
18:09:25 BruceKlein cplatt, is that information freely avail. the demographics of membership for Alcor?
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18:09:45 cplatt Wills are helpful, but living wills are much more helpful.
18:10:10 EmilG Should members be *required* to get it in their wills, in the future?
18:10:28 cplatt the demographics of Alcor were supplied to me 10 years ago on condition that I received birth dates but no names. Subsequently when I was working for Alcor I had access to all data.
18:10:40 Greg It seems some kind of secure trust could be created that would create income indefinitely into the future -- are you saying the "principal" isn't large enough?
18:10:44 EmilG I think it would be great if, the next time some beloved celebrity is frozen, the whole world knows that's really what he/she wanted.
18:11:08 Greg Emil -- very much agree -- the Ted Williams thing was a fisaco.
18:11:11 cplatt No one wants to *require* a cryonics member to do something unless it's absolutely necessary. No one wants to discourage members from signing up, understandably.
18:11:51 cplatt If the Williams case occurred (as one assumes it did!) it was a last-minute case, which are notorious for becoming problematic.
18:12:06 cplatt Merely the presence of a hostile daughter was enough to guarantee some kinds of problems.
18:12:15 EmilG Did Williams actually sign up at the last minute?



18:12:22 cplatt In addition according to news reports, Alcor did not get paid in advance, which is a big no-no.
18:12:47 cplatt All my statements about Williams must be based on publicly available info; confidentiality prevents me from stating anything from my personal knowledge.
18:12:49 cplatt Sorry!
18:12:57 Greg Understood...
18:13:05 BruceKlein that's understandable
18:13:22 cplatt According to published reports, the Williams signup documents were signed by his son. If this is true, Ted never signed up for cryonics.
18:13:59 Greg Charles -- are there problems with the local law enforcement folks in Arizona -- I've seen little references to that.
18:14:18 cplatt The great dream of cryonics has always been to find a celebrity who will sign up publicly. The nearest we have come is Don Laughlin, who founded the town of Laughlin NV, and is worth about half-a-billion. He's public.
18:14:47 cplatt So far as I know, Alcor has never interacted with AZ police in any way. Regulatory inspectors have visited and have been satisfied.
18:14:58 BruceKlein Charles, would you happen to know of the status of TimeShip.org?
18:15:20 cplatt Timeship, as of 6 weeks ago, seemed likely to locate itself in Texas.
18:15:30 Greg really? Where?
18:15:33 cplatt The problem with Timeship, as with cryonics, is that no one really has enough money.
18:15:34 Greg <-- in texas
18:15:43 Greg aha -- the old money thing
18:15:47 BruceKlein interesting... is it on schedule..
18:15:47 cplatt I can't remember the precise location in Texas and would not be supposed to reveal it anyway.
18:16:07 cplatt The people behind Timeship are hoping to get government sponsorship, somehow. I forget the details.
18:16:21 cplatt I don't think Timeship has a schedule, so far as I know.
18:16:27 Greg gvt sponsorship in TEXAS? I think they're smoking some fo the local happy weed
18:16:40 BruceKlein Charles, would you expect other competing organizations to start up anywhere else?
18:16:44 Greg The baptsist would be all over them lies flies at a church barbecue
18:16:54 cplatt Interestingly, Timeship is not controversial, because it only deals with people who are already "dead."
18:17:11 Greg How so?
18:17:13 cplatt I don't expect to see any competing organizations anywhere, because no one has the knowledge.
18:17:28 BruceKlein i see.. good point
18:17:49 cplatt Timeship would receive patients who have been "processed" elsewhere. Storage has always been the safest aspect of cryonics, legally and from a PR standpoint.
18:18:09 Greg aha -- I see
18:18:44 cplatt I mean, does anyone recall any kind of controversy about CryoSpan, the storage organization that was started in 1992? It still exists. Likewise Trans Time still has storage capability. But no one cares!
18:18:44 EmilG Could Canada be any safer than the US for this?
18:19:17 Greg How many people are in suspension outside of Alcor?
18:19:26 cplatt I don't know enough about Canada to comment, but their system of socialized medicine implies a mindset that tolerates more government control of health issues.
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18:19:56 cplatt Ben Best promised me recently he would reveal the "real" membership number at CI. Currently we guess it is around 400.
18:20:10 Greg wow -- I would have thought it was smaller
18:20:19 EmilG membership > people in suspension
18:20:24 cplatt The trouble at CI is that one type of membership requires no annual dues, so, no one knows if the members still want to be preserved.
18:20:31 BruceKlein1 membership = signed up
18:20:39 Greg ahh -- my question was about non-Alcor "suspendeed"
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18:20:56 cplatt The number of people preserved at CI is fewer than the number at Alcor. I think maybe 40 or 50.
18:21:15 cplatt Of course, all CI patients are whole-body, so, you could argue they have the biggest mass of cryopatients....
18:21:22 BruceKlein1 suspended = around 50?
18:21:22 BruceKlein1 total worldwide suspended = around 100 between CI and Alcor
18:21:27 cplatt Yes
18:21:29 Greg aha
18:21:49 Greg So -- what could kick-start the money-flow; dying boomers?
18:21:51 cplatt Plus of course there have been between 10 and 20 cases, historically, who were unfrozen.
18:22:28 cplatt Well, you have to bear in mind that if we apply everyday running expenses to each case, each case is a net loss.
18:22:33 BruceKlein1 let me ask you Charles... should cryonics organizations spell out more clearly why cryonics is needed.. for example that death = oblivion.. would this help in the long run to attract more members?
18:22:57 cplatt So if we want more money in cryonics, we must either a) increase the processing fees or b) hope to get a lot of young members who will stay alive, paying dues, for many many years!
18:23:37 cplatt Attracting members has been an unfulfilled obsession for 35 years. There are more reasons for not joining, than for joining.
18:23:46 cplatt I still believe a proof-of-concept demo is the key.
18:23:46 Greg hmm -- it was the big 4-0 that got me -- I imagine it's like that with a lot of cases
18:23:47 BruceKlein1 * BruceKlein1 nodsd
18:24:07 cplatt Just one resuscitated rat would be a BIG help!
18:24:23 Greg yes -- true enough.
18:24:40 cplatt Regarding age...you should bear in mind that people become more accepting of their "fate" as they enter their late years, say, over 60.
18:24:40 Greg but that's nowhere in sight, right?
18:24:49 EmilG The problem is, I think we're going to have the first resuscitated rat a few weeks before the first resuscitated human.
18:24:54 cplatt I can feel myself becoming more apathetic, in a way, as I approach 60.
18:25:04 Greg that's also true -- there's a window of time, when you feel your vigor slipping, but still feel lively
18:25:22 BruceKlein1 Charles, what got you first involved?
18:25:23 cplatt The resuscitated rat is maybe 20 years away. The resuscitated RAT BRAIN may be 1 or 2 years away.
18:25:41 EmilG Oh?
18:25:44 Greg you're that enthusiastic about a rat brain? wow
18:25:50 cplatt My friend Gregory Benford, an SF writer, visited Alcor in 1988, something like that. He told me about it.
18:26:03 cplatt Well, a kidney is not THAT different from a brain.
18:26:13 Greg ha -- some mornings I would agree
18:27:22 BruceKlein1 so a kidney has been brought back?
18:27:28 cplatt I'm sorry Keith Henson isn't here. I always regretted his war with the Scientologists caused his departure from Alcor.
18:27:54 cplatt The current status of kidney research is not public because the research has not reached a point where it can be written up as a paper.
18:28:26 cplatt However you must assume that if a kidney has been successfully rewarmed and reimplanted from a moderately low temp, the research has gone further in the meantime.
18:28:40 BruceKlein1 Keith, is now in Canada.. and does join us from time to time.. he's probably away from his computer
18:29:30 cplatt Sorry we didn't draw more attendees this time.
18:29:41 BruceKlein1 yes...
18:29:41 BruceKlein1 slow night..
18:29:58 EmilG I'd like to talk to my grandmother about cryonics, although it's really a long, long shot. :/
18:30:18 cplatt I never managed to persuade my father to sign up. He just laughed.
18:30:22 BruceKlein1 Combination of Holiday and Saturday.. no doubt
18:30:24 Greg Bruce -- I know you post announcements on the ExI list -- I'm sure you're publicizing these chats elsewhere
18:30:43 BruceKlein1 we should make another go for a Sunday.. perhaps in Jan
18:30:55 BruceKlein1 Greg.. yes World Trans. Assoc and Cryonet..
18:31:14 BruceKlein1 I think most members get in the habbit of Sunday night..
18:31:23 cplatt I've been thinking that a moderated version of Cryonet might be a good idea, to keep it on-topic. Do you think this is a worthwhile idea?
18:31:50 cplatt The moderated version would be in addition to the regular list, and messages from the moderated list would be added to the unmoderated list.
18:32:29 Greg list moderation is an eternal hassle -- we deal with it constantly on the extropians list
18:33:07 cplatt I would be willing to share the moderation chore with a couple other people. Cryonet is such a low-volume list, it wouldn't be a hassle.
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18:33:39 cplatt I just like the idea of being able to say to a prospective member, "You will find intelligent cryonics discussions here." I don't like to point newcomers to CryoNet generally speaking.
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18:33:54 BruceKlein back.. sorry
18:34:05 EmilG * EmilG nods. I'm a moderator, or rather "List Sniper", for Eliezer's SL4 mailing list
18:34:11 BruceKlein I created ImmInst to work only online.. not as an email list.. thus it's easier to maintain..
18:34:11 EmilG so I know how that goes.
18:34:55 Greg "list sniper" is a good term -- it's impossible to "moderate" a group of rambunctious smart people online
18:35:21 EmilG Greg: The evolutionary-psychology group on Yahoo is actually moderated
18:35:25 BruceKlein ImmInst calls them "Navigators" heh
18:35:34 EmilG There, the posts actually don't show up unless the moderator approves them.
18:35:44 cplatt I haven't seen evolutionary-psychology. URL?
18:35:51 cplatt I like your interface here.
18:35:57 BruceKlein thanks
18:36:02 EmilG groups.yahoo.com and join that group.
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18:36:12 cplatt Reminds me of the early days of BBS sites. That was fun.
18:36:13 EmilG It's wonderful, and the moderator does a superb job of keeping it on track.
18:36:48 cplatt Getting back to the challenge of selling cryonics: I made a detailed proposal for various strategies.
18:36:54 cplatt I hope to pursue some of them in 2004.
18:36:57 BruceKlein Charles you should come back for Mike Perry's chat
18:37:07 BruceKlein should be many more here..
18:37:11 cplatt When is Mike Perry on?
18:37:31 BruceKlein Dec 14 Sun
18:37:49 cplatt On Sun 14 we should know who is the next CEO of Alcor. Maybe before then.
18:37:51 Greg Charles -- I know there have been a few wealthy benefactors -- have they played an important role?
18:37:58 BruceKlein Then Max More Dec 21
18:37:59 Greg How is Lemler's health?
18:38:05 cplatt Cryonics would not exist, at all, without wealthy benefactors.
18:38:34 cplatt Jerry Lemler was admitted as a hospital patient about a week ago with an unexplained high fever which resisted attempts to lower it. As of 3 days ago, there was still an unresolved problem there.
18:38:48 Greg damn
18:39:09 cplatt What's Girls Night Out by the way?
18:39:13 Greg His wife's a peach -- I met her at Max More's and Natasha Vita-More's house last year
18:39:30 BruceKlein Charles, can I ask a few personal philosophical questions?
18:39:49 cplatt Sure
18:39:52 BruceKlein Do you find meaning in life or think there is such a thing?
18:40:08 cplatt First we have to define the term "meaning," which of course is almost impossible!
18:40:09 BruceKlein as in some higher power... etc..
18:40:13 BruceKlein right
18:40:27 cplatt Therefore I have to assume that "meaning" is a human invention.
18:41:08 cplatt I find it meaningful when I get paid, when I have sex, when I hurt myself--I think it's an emotional thing.
18:41:22 cplatt We want to stay alive because the people who were less motivated were selected out a long time ago.
18:42:04 BruceKlein right.. and why do we want to stay alive?
18:42:09 cplatt I see some persuasive evidence of a "grand design" making the universe friendly to life, but the designer could have retired or wandered away shortly after the big bang.
18:42:37 cplatt The idea of some higher being caring what we do seems implausible to me.
18:43:43 BruceKlein interesting... so you would call yourself an agnostic?
18:44:00 BruceKlein to me as well...
18:44:01 hkhenson I am here, just watching
18:44:13 BruceKlein Keith! howzit going fella
18:44:39 hkhenson btw, what give you the idea that I departed from Alcor?
18:44:51 cplatt Hi Keith. Whenever I think of you I remember you bagging ice for the Jim Glennie procedure. I was so struck by your willingness to dig in and do the chores.
18:45:01 cplatt At that point I realized that cryonics is a very egalitarian community.
18:45:17 hkhenson ???
18:45:24 hkhenson one does what is needed charles.
18:45:25 cplatt I should have said, "The Alcor board of directors," where I wish you were still participating.
18:46:06 cplatt Re bagging the ice, I mean that in a hospital, you'd have some low-level staff member doing it. The Glennie case was the first cryonics experience for me.
18:46:12 Greg charles -- can I go back to a point you made earlier -- about wealthy benefactors?
18:46:25 cplatt Sure
18:46:27 hkhenson well, unfortunatedly someone has to do it.
18:46:51 hkhenson hmm glennie . . . were you there for that one?
18:46:54 Greg Has there ever been a concerted effort to recruit wealthy supporters. Specifically trageting them
18:46:57 cplatt In cryonics, everyone has to do everything (or should be willing to). This was my eye-opener. It made the field more attractive to me.
18:47:20 cplatt Bob Ettinger sent a mailing to 500 or 1000 names from Who's Who. That was a while ago!
18:47:43 cplatt I'm not sure how one would contact wealthy people, who typically have a system for screening out people asking for money.
18:47:46 Greg hmm -- I had something more effective in mind -- personal approaches
18:48:04 Greg you definitely have to network your way in
18:48:16 cplatt I watched Jack Zinn asking Don Laughlin for money. After half an hour, Laughlin said, "Great idea, Jack. You should find someone to sponsor it."
18:48:40 Greg yeah -- experiences like that are heartbreaking, but someone needs to be doing it ...
18:48:45 cplatt Doesn't Alcor have one of the founders of PayPal as an active member? He must be quite wealthy.
18:48:49 Greg of course THAT takes money, too
18:48:54 hkhenson I find it interesting that the ted williams thing didn't result in any increase in people entering the signup process
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18:49:15 cplatt The trouble with most wealthy people is that they expect other people to serve them; just the opposite of the egalitarian situation i was talking about earlier.
18:49:17 Greg Keith -- the vast majority of people were REPULSED by the williams thing ...
18:49:20 hkhenson this is in comparison to the dora kent mess.
18:49:34 cplatt Would Don Laughlin start bagging ice if he was at Alcor when a case happened to occur? Of course not!
18:49:59 cplatt Actually the flow of signups did not increase or decrease during the year following the Williams controversy.
18:50:02 hkhenson greg, folks were repulsed by dora kent as well
18:50:02 Greg well, Charles, egalitarianism is wonderful, but money makes the world go 'round, as the old song goes.
18:50:15 cplatt The people who were going to sign up anyway, signed up. The people who weren't interested, still weren't interested.
18:50:27 hkhenson but I agree with others who have analized the business.
18:50:34 cplatt I am not advocating egalitarianism as a business model!
18:50:39 Greg The problem was the lurid crap from the sports press, nd the son's unsavory character
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18:51:04 cplatt Actually the Sports Illustrated article was about 90 to 95 percent accurate, by my estimation.
18:51:05 BruceKlein back...
18:51:16 hkhenson namely that the big surge with dora kent was because a lot of people found out that there was a co for the first time.
18:51:26 Greg SI was pretty good -- but the sports reporters in the daily press were pretty bad
18:51:44 BruceKlein did you have a chance to get to the Singularity question, Charles?
18:51:53 cplatt Also the Dora Kent case had a very positive ending.
18:51:57 hkhenson none the less, I think the growth is probably on a steady course
18:52:05 hkhenson slow but steady.
18:52:17 cplatt I've been looking forward to the singularity since Vernor Vinge wrote about it in Omni about 15 years ago, and predicted that it might happen within about 15 years.
18:52:48 BruceKlein what does the Singularity mean to you?
18:52:51 cplatt The only publicity event that has ever had a measurable positive effect, in the short term, was the Omni immortality contest.
18:53:23 cplatt The Singularity will occur, if it occurs, after two or three more generations get out of the way. There is a huge resistance to technological change, as we are seeing right now.
18:53:35 hkhenson amusing in a way, far as I know none of the people associated with omni managment signed up, or am I wrong there charles?
18:53:36 BruceKlein * BruceKlein nods
18:53:49 cplatt No one at Omni ever signed up for cryonics.
18:54:18 hkhenson charles, maybe it will take that long and maybe not.
18:54:21 cplatt In fact Benford and myself are the only two writers who have signed up, so far as I know. Plus James Halperin, except that he wasn't a writer till he decided to write a cryonics novel.
18:54:41 hkhenson there are bunch of paths leading to it.
18:54:57 cplatt I'd be delighted if I woke up tomorrow and found the entire landscape had been remade by nanobots, but I've given up hoping to see that in my current lifespan.
18:54:58 hkhenson and fair progress is being made on all of them.
18:55:05 hkhenson ah . . . .
18:55:09 Greg Charles, i think you made a good point about the effect of age and apathy. When you're young, you don't think about death, past a certain point, you're TIRED.
18:55:27 cplatt Hm, Keith, I dunno--every time I ask Ralph Merkle what's new, he sounds a little less optimistic than the last time!
18:55:40 cplatt People in political power never get tired. That's the problem.
18:55:58 hkhenson heh heh.
18:56:10 hkhenson charles, did you see the article I wrote on why that is the case?
18:56:19 cplatt No, Keith. Point me to it.
18:57:00 hkhenson human-nature.com/nibbs/02/cults.html
18:57:12 cplatt My motto is, "everything always drags on for longer than you expect, even when you think you have taken this motto into account."
18:57:40 hkhenson but in short, folks in political power are getting a steady flow of endorphins that keep pain down and dopamine that keeps energy levels up.
18:58:00 hkhenson I don't know about that in all cases charles.
18:58:12 cplatt Keith, I absolutely agree. Of course there are other people who get switched on by COMBATING people in power, but, by definition, they have less power!
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18:58:34 hkhenson there was a worm last year that was doubling every 8.5 seconds
18:59:00 hkhenson if AI developed on the net, that how fast the singularity could hit.
18:59:11 cplatt Keith, thanks to the wonders of the web, even though I live 50 miles from my nearest dialup connection, I am printing your article right now.
18:59:19 StemCellCloning StemCellCloning (~StemCellC@[death to spam].ACA94340.ipt.aol.com) has joined #immortal

18:59:25 cplatt Yes, but I don't see much chance of real AI for a long time.
18:59:55 cplatt Please understand, I _want_ these things to happen.
18:59:57 StemCellCloning Hello, sorry im late.
19:00:16 cplatt StemCellCloning is too late by definition, for me.
19:00:40 StemCellCloning how so?
19:00:58 BruceKlein BruceKlein (~BruceKlei@[death to spam].pub-net-3.bradleyarant.com) has joined #immortal

19:01:00 cplatt I'd like to clone some stem cells right now....bad joke. Do you have any Alcor/Cryonics questions?
19:01:30 hkhenson has anything developed in the last few weeks?
19:01:36 hkhenson I talked to people that recently
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19:01:56 StemCellCloning lol, I do but being aa late comer I will look a little foolish if they have been asked allready
19:02:22 cplatt There are so many possible questions, your chance of repetition is minimal.
19:02:27 hkhenson stem, the log for this should be up shortly if it is not already
19:02:36 BruceKlein it will be posted soon...
19:02:57 hkhenson Heh heh.
19:03:15 hkhenson trivia, which charles might not know. do you know about the connection to saddam?
19:03:27 cplatt what connection?
19:03:43 hkhenson his agents inquired about cryonics for him long time ago
19:04:00 hkhenson must have been before alcor left riverside.
19:04:08 cplatt didn't know that.
19:04:09 StemCellCloning My main question is how are cells affected by cryonics? In the path lab the stabillity of cells in quite limited, how does cryonics deal with this?
19:04:11 BruceKlein look to the homepage in around an hr
19:04:11 BruceKlein saddam and cryonics?
19:04:48 hkhenson he was told that alcor would freeze him, but storage was going to be expensive because they would not keep his bod with the rest of the patients
19:05:15 cplatt Cooling cells causes all kinds of bad consequences, as you suggest. However, if you can sustain metabolism, that is one way to at least maintain cell processes, during the transport phase.
19:05:16 StemCellCloning cool someone to pick on for all eternity, LOL
19:05:18 BruceKlein1 BruceKlein1 (~BruceKlei@[death to spam].pub-net-3.bradleyarant.com) has joined #immortal

19:05:19 hkhenson stem, cells, human cells have been frozen as normal practice for many decades
19:05:57 cplatt Subsequently cells must be protected from freezing damage. As Keith says, this is possible, and people are alive today who were frozen when they were blastocysts.
19:05:59 StemCellCloning sustain metabolism? freeze them live?
19:06:13 BruceKlein1 by the way... the official chat has ended.. thus Charels you are free to say as long as you'd like..
19:06:18 hkhenson I think one of the oldest lines of cells is WI 28, dating back to the 50s
19:06:39 cplatt However an organ in which structure is as important as cellular viability presents much bigger preservation challenges.
19:07:00 cplatt Keith, I have a question before I go eat dinner...do you ever foresee a truce between you and the Scientologists?
19:07:03 hkhenson you can thaw them out and they continue to divide just like they did before they were frozen.
19:07:03 StemCellCloning yes it seems to work but the mechanism is still something of a curiosity
19:07:12 hkhenson no
19:07:16 cplatt Stem, which mechanism are you talking about?
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19:07:43 hkhenson they are spending upwards of 300k a year on me still.
19:07:49 cplatt Keith, I am sorry to hear that, because I have been thinking a lot, recently, about the loss of so many people who were active at Alcor. Of course I realize you are still active in Canada.
19:08:14 StemCellCloning the cells freezing and being thawed that are somatic
19:08:21 cplatt But to end on a typically negative note (I am always accused of being negative), we're almost out of volunteers here.
19:08:28 hkhenson hmm
19:08:41 hkhenson well, that's one of the features of early outfits.
19:08:50 StemCellCloning voluteers for what charles?
19:08:51 hkhenson they run on volunteers
19:08:52 cplatt The word "freezing" implies ice crystals. Let's just think about "cooling" and assume we can avoid ice.
19:09:03 StemCellCloning aha
19:09:08 StemCellCloning yes
19:09:16 BruceKlein1 Charles - thanks so much for taking the time to join us.. you're welcome to come in anytime.. and we should really reschedule for a Sunday in the future..
19:09:17 cplatt The Arrhenius equation describes precisely how chemical activity diminishes with temperature.
19:09:21 hkhenson eventually if the outfit susceeds, it has to operate on paid staff.
19:09:32 StemCellCloning yes
19:09:39 cplatt When you're cold enough, everything stops, especially if it is embedded in a glasslike substance.
19:09:48 hkhenson for one thing, volunteers just can't take that much time out of their lives.
19:10:07 cplatt When the temperature goes up again, chemistry resumes. Life "restarts" because life is chemistry.
19:10:27 cplatt As for volunteers, I fear we are still in the transition phase where volunteers are necessary.
19:10:30 hkhenson that's what happened with L5 Society.
19:10:40 StemCellCloning but it freezes inbetween does it not
19:10:54 hkhenson to do what charles?
19:10:56 StemCellCloning people to voluteer for cryonics?
19:11:02 cplatt Freezing can be avoided almost totally. Search "vitrification cryobiology" on Google.
19:11:20 StemCellCloning ok ty sounds gr8
19:11:30 cplatt Volunteers are needed to go out and get patients and bring them back; to bag the ice (!) and everything else, including signing people up.
19:12:01 cplatt Another problem is that the Larry Johnson disaster has made everyone very cautious about hiring non-members for hands-on work.
19:12:19 cplatt Alcor specifically hoped to find member-candidates for the CEO position.
19:12:50 cplatt It's unfortunate, because some of the smartest, most productive people at Alcor right now are non-members.
19:13:10 BruceKlein1 that's strange
19:13:13 cplatt The facility manager at Alcor routinely works 50 or more hours per week, for a relatively low wage.
19:13:22 EmilG Why wouldn't these people want to be members, is it just the cost?
19:13:38 cplatt People who are attracted to startup companies like to work hard, generally speaking. It's exciting.
19:14:00 cplatt The people who are nonmember employees have not joined presumably because they don't expect to die real soon. The usual reason!
19:14:10 hkhenson hmm
19:14:11 StemCellCloning aha
19:14:34 cplatt I'm being facetious...but I do think that most people don't expect to die imminently.
19:14:41 hkhenson I would make membership a job benefit charles.
19:15:03 hkhenson we could insure them on a group policy for next to nothing.
19:15:03 cplatt Earlier this year we had a cancer patient who only had about three weeks to live, and he was still talking casually about all the things he was expecting to do with the rest of his life.
19:15:35 cplatt Alcor employees do not have to pay dues. But they still need insurance funding!
19:15:40 hkhenson charles, did you ever study the life insuracne business?
19:15:42 BruceKlein1 ah, yes.. but if they felt that death = oblivion maybe this would change their minds.. because an accident could happen at anytime
19:16:14 cplatt Personally I am always surprised when I wake up in the morning. But apparently other people expect to wake up, day after day.
19:16:20 StemCellCloning well I am in Australia so I dont know if thats any good to you Charles.
19:16:36 BruceKlein1 heh... charles.. i pinch myself every 30 mins or so
19:16:45 hkhenson stem, would you like to work in the US?
19:17:04 cplatt Keith, I agree with your unstated implication that life insurance costs more than it is really worth. But still any organization has to have proper patient funding in place. How to do this for employees, other than by insurance?
19:17:06 hkhenson do you have skills useful to alcor, or could you learn them?
19:17:08 StemCellCloning I cant u have outlawed me, lol
19:17:49 hkhenson charles, group life insurance for a batch of young people would be next to nothing.
19:17:49 cplatt Currently the book keeper, facility manager, and a biologist who specializes in neuroscience are nonmembers on the Alcor payroll.
19:17:58 hkhenson few dollars a month per person.
19:18:32 cplatt wait a minute--I made a mistake. The neuroscientist has signed up.
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19:18:50 cplatt I was not an Alcor member when I started working for Alcor last year!
19:18:58 BruceKlein1 Charles.. we could make an announcement to ImmInst of the need for Volunteers...
19:18:58 BruceKlein1 let me know if you'd like to work out an interview for this post...
19:19:00 cplatt Group life insurance is a good idea, Keith.
19:19:37 cplatt The problem re volunteers is that most of them need to live in Phoenix. It was much easier to find local help when Alcor was in California.
19:19:50 hkhenson I think part of the problem with volunteers stems from the previous management
19:19:50 StemCellCloning aha
19:19:51 BruceKlein1 true
19:20:21 cplatt Anyway--I have to go microwave something! Thanks for the interesting chat. Can you put me on a list to remind me of future events? other@[death to spam].platt.us
19:20:29 BruceKlein1 i will...
19:20:46 cplatt bye
19:20:48 BruceKlein1 you may wish to join here: http://www.imminst.org/join
19:20:48 BruceKlein1 as well
19:20:49 hkhenson they didn't count experience and required team members to take training courses that I expect were a lot more trouble than they were worth.
19:20:50 BruceKlein1 thanks!
19:21:04 StemCellCloning ty for the chat Charles
19:21:47 hkhenson ah reminds me of something
19:21:57 BruceKlein1 keith.. freezing your ass off yet?
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19:22:03 StemCellCloning If you need a rep in Sydney pm me
19:22:07 hkhenson there is a route to a very long lived mouse
19:22:28 hkhenson there is a rodent that lives more than 20 years
19:22:42 StemCellCloning realy?
19:22:45 StemCellCloning what?
19:22:56 hkhenson naked mole rats.
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19:23:00 BruceKlein1 thanks for the offer Stem
19:23:17 hkhenson stem, there are a number of alcor members there.
19:23:24 hkhenson I think they have a kit of some sort.
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19:23:54 StemCellCloning R their its not something many Australians know about
19:23:56 BruceKlein1 yeah... Australia needs a group and a website...
19:23:56 hkhenson you could certainly train with them to learn how to do initial proceedures
19:24:30 hkhenson standby, meds and CPR, washout even.
19:24:32 StemCellCloning just about all the facilities exist at work
19:24:45 hkhenson hmmmmmmmmm
19:25:08 hkhenson of course one problem is that members are scattered all over the place.
19:25:09 StemCellCloning not the storage though
19:25:16 hkhenson but I think most of them are in sydney
19:25:23 hkhenson or nearby
19:25:43 StemCellCloning yes most of australia is in sydney, lol
19:25:55 hkhenson stem, washout, perfuse, freeze to dry ice, and ship out to alcor.
19:26:03 StemCellCloning more than 10%
19:26:07 BruceKlein1 were you joking about being banned from the US, stem?
19:26:29 sjvan actually, the last time I looked, Austrailian memevers were *really* scattered...more than you would think. most are *not* in Sydney
19:26:35 StemCellCloning No US has baned all my work I have been told
19:26:47 hkhenson ah.. that I understand
19:26:54 BruceKlein1 welcome sjvan...
19:27:16 sjvan Thanks...just missed Charles, eh?
19:27:17 StemCellCloning Hi sj R they hmmm not around sydney?
19:27:22 BruceKlein1 you missed Charles.. but i'll post the archive soon..
19:27:54 BruceKlein1 Charles Platt.. cryonics, alcor, future chat
19:28:13 StemCellCloning you have heard it from congress, bruce?
19:28:14 BruceKlein1 scheduled chat..
19:28:15 sjvan mind that it has been a while, but most were not around sydney...though my knowledge of Austrailian geography is limited.
19:28:30 BruceKlein1 heh.. gotcha

[thefirstimmortal]

Relevant notes from Chat

18:09:45 cplatt Wills are helpful, but living wills are much more helpful.

18:14:18 cplatt The great dream of cryonics has always been to find a celebrity who will sign up publicly. The nearest we have come is Don Laughlin, who founded the town of Laughlin NV, and is worth about half-a-billion. He's public.

18:17:49 cplatt Timeship would receive patients who have been "processed" elsewhere. Storage has always been the safest aspect of cryonics, legally and from a PR standpoint.

18:21:51 cplatt Plus of course there have been between 10 and 20 cases, historically, who were unfrozen.

18:23:46 cplatt I still believe a proof-of-concept demo is the key.

18:24:07 cplatt Just one resuscitated rat would be a BIG help!

18:31:14 BruceKlein1 I think most members get in the habbit of Sunday night..

18:36:48 cplatt Getting back to the challenge of selling cryonics: I made a detailed proposal for various strategies.

18:41:08 cplatt I find it meaningful when I get paid, when I have sex, when I hurt myself--I think it's an emotional thing.

18:49:15 cplatt The trouble with most wealthy people is that they expect other people to serve them; just the opposite of the egalitarian situation i was talking about earlier.

18:51:53 cplatt Also the Dora Kent case had a very positive ending.

18:55:40 cplatt People in political power never get tired. That's the problem.

[thefirstimmortal]

Relevant notes from Chat
18:31:14 BruceKlein1 I think most members get in the habbit of Sunday night..

Ooops, I've been on all night, I thought it was Sunday. Creature of Habit ["]

[Bruce Klein]

Thanks William for pulling out those tidbits. Charles was a gracious guest and I hope he find the time to join us in the future.

[thefirstimmortal]

Thanks William for pulling out those tidbits. Charles was a gracious guest and I hope he find the time to join us in the future.

Let me know if he comes again.

I snapped a few photo's of the bumper-sticker, when I finish the film, I'll get it developed. Post it on te site